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Author Topic: No olive oil or no any kind of oil?  (Read 6025 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 09, 2013, 10:13:36 PM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2013, 10:19:05 PM »

Copts use oil, but we also don't have this cheesefare or meatfare thing that you guys do. I guess it all evens out, maybe. Does the use of oil vary across EO jurisdictions, or did you mean that you've read conflicting individual opinions in some places...?
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2013, 10:22:24 PM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

I'm not sure, but I think the use/definition of "oil" varies about as much as the use/definition of "wine".
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2013, 10:28:09 PM »

Copts use oil, but we also don't have this cheesefare or meatfare thing that you guys do. I guess it all evens out, maybe. Does the use of oil vary across EO jurisdictions, or did you mean that you've read conflicting individual opinions in some places...?
What is this cheesefare/meatfare thing?
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2013, 10:35:08 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslenitsa (Cheesefare)

Meatfare is the same thing, as far as understand it, but with meat instead of dairy. It is apparently also called the Sunday of Last Judgment.
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2013, 11:18:36 PM »

Meatfare sunday is the last day to eat meat. It is followed by cheesefare week where the only dietary restriction is meat, but everything else up to and including dairy is allowed. Cheesefare sunday ends cheesefare week and is the last day before lent begins on clean monday.
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2013, 11:50:12 PM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

That would be an ask your priest kind of question.

I have heard that some folks scrupulously avoid any kind of oil during Great Lent except when olive oil and wine are allowed on special feast days, for example, for the Feast of The Annunciation, Saturdays, and Sundays.

Other folks are not so scrupulous and will use macadamian or coconut oil for cooking and flax seed oil in their salads. Use of other oils such as canola, sunflower oil, and safflower oils can be dangerous as they are high in Omega 6.

By the way, stay away from margarine.

Also, on feast days where olive oil is used, it is best to use Extra Virgin Olive Oil as most olive oils, especially those from Italy, are cut with rancid hazel nut oil or solvents which can kill you. One test is to put the olive oil in the refrigerator for 3 days. If it freezes or becomes solid, then it is most likely pure, but if it does not become solid, then it is guaranteed to have foreign substances including solvents that can kill you.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 11:52:28 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2013, 12:02:49 AM »

I just read a ROC website yesterday that said any type of oil should be avoided, while the OCA website says only olive oil is to be avoided.
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« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2013, 12:34:35 AM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

Yes there is.  For my part, if we are going to get all pharisee about this fasting stuff, let's go by the letter of the words.  Avoid olive oil.  They did not have the other oils back then, so I use them.  Same with wine.  No wine.  Jack Daniels did not come till later, so it is OK.  And forget about 70/30 hamburger on sale at the grocery store.  It's lobster and shrimp baby, all the way.  They are particularly good when smothered in Jack Daniels sauce.  Margarine should be OK, as long as it does not have olive oil in it.  You know, coconut oil is pretty good stuff.  I use that a lot.  It also works as a good skin softener.

Lent is so much fun.
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« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2013, 12:49:52 AM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

Yes there is.  For my part, if we are going to get all pharisee about this fasting stuff, let's go by the letter of the words.  Avoid olive oil.  They did not have the other oils back then, so I use them.  Same with wine.  No wine.  Jack Daniels did not come till later, so it is OK.  And forget about 70/30 hamburger on sale at the grocery store.  It's lobster and shrimp baby, all the way.  They are particularly good when smothered in Jack Daniels sauce.  Margarine should be OK, as long as it does not have olive oil in it.  You know, coconut oil is pretty good stuff.  I use that a lot.  It also works as a good skin softener.

Lent is so much fun.

Jack Daniels = hard liquor
Is that why some people drink beer all during Lent?
Yeah, in that case, Great Lent should be a smash. Why do Great Lent?

Aren't we to be sober and watchful? How can one be sober with a daily diet of Jack Daniels and beer?

Back on the topic of olive oil. Margarine is not okay, yet many folks use it during Lent as a substitute for butter. However, margarine has been implicated in breast cancer and in other cancers.

If one is told to avoid olive oil and other oils, then applesauce can be substituted for oil in most recipes.
In salads, one can mash an avocado and add that to a salad as a dressing.




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« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2013, 12:55:51 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 01:28:14 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

I eat olives all the time.

Oh, a few chopped olives added to vegetable soup makes the soup sensational.
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 01:29:01 AM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

There really is no varied opinion when looking back, though.  It is olive oil.  
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 01:32:16 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2013, 02:12:16 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Thanks for this information, Father!
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2013, 02:14:36 AM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

There really is no varied opinion when looking back, though.  It is olive oil.  

Simple and sound. I like your approach, Father.
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 06:29:54 AM »

Quote
Back on the topic of olive oil. Margarine is not okay, yet many folks use it during Lent as a substitute for butter. However, margarine has been implicated in breast cancer and in other cancers.

I'm confused. Are you saying, we should stay away from margarine because it's not lenten or because it's unhealthy?
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2013, 08:02:17 AM »

The food eaten on no-oil days is called xerophagia (dry food). That means no oil of any kind.
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2013, 08:45:16 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Thanks for this information, Father!

Ditto that! Simple but elegant explanation.
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« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2013, 11:27:41 AM »

The food eaten on no-oil days is called xerophagia (dry food). That means no oil of any kind.

But if you boil or steam them, they won't be dry either.
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2013, 12:03:13 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

i never thought of the wine grape things also.
but thanks so much! I finaly got a reasonable answer to my question of why is it ok to eat olives and not olive oil.
thanks so much father! Grin
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2013, 12:44:34 PM »

I am not confused, as I follow the russian guidelines. What others do, well that is their choise and issue.
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2013, 01:30:49 PM »

Didn't orthonorm have a post in this thread?  Huh
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2013, 01:36:11 PM »

as a friend would say: now i'll fry my sausages in water, instead of pork lard.
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2013, 02:57:02 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Just make sure to only eat the pits and to spit out the oily liquid, straining the chewed olive flesh through your teeth. That's the Orthodox way.
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2013, 02:59:13 PM »

The food eaten on no-oil days is called xerophagia (dry food). That means no oil of any kind.

But if you boil or steam them, they won't be dry either.

Different kind of dry.
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2013, 03:06:41 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Sounds like something contrived after the fact.  Grapes or olives are no more alive or dead after they are pressed than before.  The pit or seeds can still be planted and will grow.  THAT would be more a symbol of resurrection.
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2013, 03:11:51 PM »

Certainly in the Greek tradition (at least in my experience of both parishes and monasteries), oil means oil of any kind.
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2013, 04:02:26 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!
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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2013, 07:04:01 PM »

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Are mashed potatoes OK during Great Lent?  Huh I hope so.
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2013, 07:11:26 PM »

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.  

Are mashed potatoes OK during Great Lent?  Huh I hope so.

Mashed potatoes are ok.  Vodka and potato wine not ok.  
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2013, 07:17:25 PM »

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Are mashed potatoes OK during Great Lent?  Huh I hope so.

Of course they are, if no dairy is used in them. Even on no-oil days, they might not taste as good without oil, but they're still perfectly lenten.
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2013, 07:29:32 PM »

When I was attending a Greek parish it seemed that the rule was no oil, no matter the kind. Also, no alcohol.

After I started to attend my current Antiochian parish one of our good friend (a deacon's wife) told us it was only olive oil, anything else was ok (how else are we to cook any thing?). Also since then I have heard that it is just wine and other alcohol is fine.

I guess it might just be jurisdiction preference so check with your priest.
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2013, 07:51:21 PM »

As has been said, there are many varied methods to following the fast which have been blessed by the hierarchs of various jurisdictions. I'm not here to debate anyone, and will probably only make this one post. I just want to share my practice.

That said, on a full fasting day, I avoid frying anything, regardless of the type of oil used. I also tend to avoid lavish use of oil (such as dipping for bread, etc.). Yes, the prohibition on olive oil was only for olive oil...but as was said, there was only olive oil then. I don't believe the Holy Fathers would've said "only olive oil, but the rest is fine." That doesn't really compute with me.

The same argument stands for alcoholic beverages. I avoid both wine and liquor. However, I will drink ciders alongside beer, as I believe them to be roughly equivalent.

I will use some substitutes, however, on a limited basis. I will fix toast will a vegetable oil spread (or flaxseed oil spread, quite healthy). I will also use almond/soy milk for IN things, like cereal. I don't really buy the argument that such substitutes are close enough to be "cheating." Then, after attending a ROCOR monastery during a fast and seeing the monks eat cereal with Silk, I was thoroughly convinced it was okay!
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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2013, 07:56:59 PM »

Then, after attending a ROCOR monastery during a fast and seeing the monks eat cereal with Silk, I was thoroughly convinced it was okay!

Was it Silk in 19th century Russia? Is outrage!

All my family ever buys is almond/soy milk no matter the time of year. But I am glad to know that some monastics see fit to use it during fasting periods.
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« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2013, 08:29:03 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.
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« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2013, 08:51:52 PM »

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.  

Are mashed potatoes OK during Great Lent?  Huh I hope so.

Mashed potatoes are ok.  Vodka and potato wine not ok.  

It was actually a joke. When you prepare mashed potatoes, you actually "press the living thing to death".
Sorry for the humour.
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« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2013, 08:57:24 PM »

Then, after attending a ROCOR monastery during a fast and seeing the monks eat cereal with Silk, I was thoroughly convinced it was okay!

Was it Silk in 19th century Russia? Is outrage!

All my family ever buys is almond/soy milk no matter the time of year. But I am glad to know that some monastics see fit to use it during fasting periods.

How terrible.  You know, pressing the life out of those soybeans, almonds and coconuts.
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« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2013, 10:15:35 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.

And I'll LOL.
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« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2013, 10:20:09 PM »

Holy fools were fond of eating sausages in Lent, but maybe, as Augustin points out, they fried them in water. Here, we fry one another in sarcasm, which produces a nice flavor, especially when washed down with moral superiority.
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« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2013, 12:09:15 AM »

Holy fools were fond of eating sausages in Lent, but maybe, as Augustin points out, they fried them in water. Here, we fry one another in sarcasm, which produces a nice flavor, especially when washed down with moral superiority.

Woe to those who think they are holy fools.
They may end up in an insane asylum.
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« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2013, 01:32:33 AM »

The food eaten on no-oil days is called xerophagia (dry food). That means no oil of any kind.

But if you boil or steam them, they won't be dry either.

Right, the canonical commentaries interpret "xerophagy" in the canons of the Faster, for example, as indicating only bread and water, and nothing more.  Footnotes to chapter 33 of the Typikon indicate that "dry food, refers to 'xerophagy,' which means unboiled food that is either raw, dried, salted or pickled, as well as plain bread"  http://www.orthodox.net/ustav/nativity-fast.html.   Yet we have Met. Kallistos with a different definition altogether. 
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« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2013, 06:20:47 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.

And I'll LOL.

A recommendation as well, of a sort.
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« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2013, 07:19:25 AM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

That would be an ask your priest kind of question.

I have heard that some folks scrupulously avoid any kind of oil during Great Lent except when olive oil and wine are allowed on special feast days, for example, for the Feast of The Annunciation, Saturdays, and Sundays.

Other folks are not so scrupulous and will use macadamian or coconut oil for cooking and flax seed oil in their salads. Use of other oils such as canola, sunflower oil, and safflower oils can be dangerous as they are high in Omega 6.

By the way, stay away from margarine.

Also, on feast days where olive oil is used, it is best to use Extra Virgin Olive Oil as most olive oils, especially those from Italy, are cut with rancid hazel nut oil or solvents which can kill you. One test is to put the olive oil in the refrigerator for 3 days. If it freezes or becomes solid, then it is most likely pure, but if it does not become solid, then it is guaranteed to have foreign substances including solvents that can kill you.

I wonder how this would work?  Oil is in almost any type of food.  Almost every type of bread/cracker/pastry contains oil.   I mean if you read the ingredients on SO many foods they contain oil based products.  I have bread crumbs with oil in them, as well as chocolate.

Nuts have oil in them - Peanut oil, almond oil, cashew oil.   Corn has oil in it.   Olives have oil.   Hemp has oil.  Rapeseed  has oil (canola).    Coconuts have oil.  Neem oil (common in India to brush teeth).

Also there is essential oils (some consume these, some use as smell) - such as oregano oil is consumed for colds... You can pretty much get oil from any plant (for essential oil) Is there a common "guide" out there on this subject?
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« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2013, 08:14:49 AM »

I wonder how this would work?  Oil is in almost any type of food.  Almost every type of bread/cracker/pastry contains oil.   I mean if you read the ingredients on SO many foods they contain oil based products.  I have bread crumbs with oil in them, as well as chocolate.

That's why the exclusion of oil makes such a huge difference to the severity of the fast (and why hardly anyone keeps it except for certain days - Good Friday, the evening before a Liturgy when you plan to commune, etc.). Saturdays and Sundays are not considered fasting days because you can use oil (though it's also because there's no total fast until the 9th hour).

You basically can't eat most things with an 'ingredients' label. You would make things like boiled/steamed vegetables, fruits, nuts, porridge, etc. You can get bread made with only flour, water and yeast, but if you don't make your own bread, going round the supermarket asking which breads have oil in them would be going a little overboard. If you're not cooking from scratch, it's more or less impossible to keep, at least not without going down the road of pharisaical pedantry.

Quote
Nuts have oil in them - Peanut oil, almond oil, cashew oil.   Corn has oil in it.   Olives have oil.   Hemp has oil.  Rapeseed  has oil (canola).    Coconuts have oil.

Olives contain olive oil, but they're still ok during fasting. Same thing.

You can pretty much get oil from any plant (for essential oil) Is there a common "guide" out there on this subject?

It's the use of oil in cooking, not the consumption of whatever oils or juices might be found naturally in food items - e.g. consuming olive oil while eating olives - you would have to extract the oil and use it as 'oil' for it to count.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 08:29:52 AM by Orthodox11 » Logged
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