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Author Topic: No olive oil or no any kind of oil?  (Read 5729 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 09, 2013, 10:13:36 PM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2013, 10:19:05 PM »

Copts use oil, but we also don't have this cheesefare or meatfare thing that you guys do. I guess it all evens out, maybe. Does the use of oil vary across EO jurisdictions, or did you mean that you've read conflicting individual opinions in some places...?
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2013, 10:22:24 PM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

I'm not sure, but I think the use/definition of "oil" varies about as much as the use/definition of "wine".
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2013, 10:28:09 PM »

Copts use oil, but we also don't have this cheesefare or meatfare thing that you guys do. I guess it all evens out, maybe. Does the use of oil vary across EO jurisdictions, or did you mean that you've read conflicting individual opinions in some places...?
What is this cheesefare/meatfare thing?
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2013, 10:35:08 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslenitsa (Cheesefare)

Meatfare is the same thing, as far as understand it, but with meat instead of dairy. It is apparently also called the Sunday of Last Judgment.
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2013, 11:18:36 PM »

Meatfare sunday is the last day to eat meat. It is followed by cheesefare week where the only dietary restriction is meat, but everything else up to and including dairy is allowed. Cheesefare sunday ends cheesefare week and is the last day before lent begins on clean monday.
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2013, 11:50:12 PM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

That would be an ask your priest kind of question.

I have heard that some folks scrupulously avoid any kind of oil during Great Lent except when olive oil and wine are allowed on special feast days, for example, for the Feast of The Annunciation, Saturdays, and Sundays.

Other folks are not so scrupulous and will use macadamian or coconut oil for cooking and flax seed oil in their salads. Use of other oils such as canola, sunflower oil, and safflower oils can be dangerous as they are high in Omega 6.

By the way, stay away from margarine.

Also, on feast days where olive oil is used, it is best to use Extra Virgin Olive Oil as most olive oils, especially those from Italy, are cut with rancid hazel nut oil or solvents which can kill you. One test is to put the olive oil in the refrigerator for 3 days. If it freezes or becomes solid, then it is most likely pure, but if it does not become solid, then it is guaranteed to have foreign substances including solvents that can kill you.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 11:52:28 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2013, 12:02:49 AM »

I just read a ROC website yesterday that said any type of oil should be avoided, while the OCA website says only olive oil is to be avoided.
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« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2013, 12:34:35 AM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

Yes there is.  For my part, if we are going to get all pharisee about this fasting stuff, let's go by the letter of the words.  Avoid olive oil.  They did not have the other oils back then, so I use them.  Same with wine.  No wine.  Jack Daniels did not come till later, so it is OK.  And forget about 70/30 hamburger on sale at the grocery store.  It's lobster and shrimp baby, all the way.  They are particularly good when smothered in Jack Daniels sauce.  Margarine should be OK, as long as it does not have olive oil in it.  You know, coconut oil is pretty good stuff.  I use that a lot.  It also works as a good skin softener.

Lent is so much fun.
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« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2013, 12:49:52 AM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

Yes there is.  For my part, if we are going to get all pharisee about this fasting stuff, let's go by the letter of the words.  Avoid olive oil.  They did not have the other oils back then, so I use them.  Same with wine.  No wine.  Jack Daniels did not come till later, so it is OK.  And forget about 70/30 hamburger on sale at the grocery store.  It's lobster and shrimp baby, all the way.  They are particularly good when smothered in Jack Daniels sauce.  Margarine should be OK, as long as it does not have olive oil in it.  You know, coconut oil is pretty good stuff.  I use that a lot.  It also works as a good skin softener.

Lent is so much fun.

Jack Daniels = hard liquor
Is that why some people drink beer all during Lent?
Yeah, in that case, Great Lent should be a smash. Why do Great Lent?

Aren't we to be sober and watchful? How can one be sober with a daily diet of Jack Daniels and beer?

Back on the topic of olive oil. Margarine is not okay, yet many folks use it during Lent as a substitute for butter. However, margarine has been implicated in breast cancer and in other cancers.

If one is told to avoid olive oil and other oils, then applesauce can be substituted for oil in most recipes.
In salads, one can mash an avocado and add that to a salad as a dressing.




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« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2013, 12:55:51 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 01:28:14 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

I eat olives all the time.

Oh, a few chopped olives added to vegetable soup makes the soup sensational.
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 01:29:01 AM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

There really is no varied opinion when looking back, though.  It is olive oil.  
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 01:32:16 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2013, 02:12:16 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Thanks for this information, Father!
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2013, 02:14:36 AM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

There really is no varied opinion when looking back, though.  It is olive oil.  

Simple and sound. I like your approach, Father.
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 06:29:54 AM »

Quote
Back on the topic of olive oil. Margarine is not okay, yet many folks use it during Lent as a substitute for butter. However, margarine has been implicated in breast cancer and in other cancers.

I'm confused. Are you saying, we should stay away from margarine because it's not lenten or because it's unhealthy?
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2013, 08:02:17 AM »

The food eaten on no-oil days is called xerophagia (dry food). That means no oil of any kind.
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2013, 08:45:16 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Thanks for this information, Father!

Ditto that! Simple but elegant explanation.
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« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2013, 11:27:41 AM »

The food eaten on no-oil days is called xerophagia (dry food). That means no oil of any kind.

But if you boil or steam them, they won't be dry either.
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2013, 12:03:13 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

i never thought of the wine grape things also.
but thanks so much! I finaly got a reasonable answer to my question of why is it ok to eat olives and not olive oil.
thanks so much father! Grin
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2013, 12:44:34 PM »

I am not confused, as I follow the russian guidelines. What others do, well that is their choise and issue.
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2013, 01:30:49 PM »

Didn't orthonorm have a post in this thread?  Huh
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2013, 01:36:11 PM »

as a friend would say: now i'll fry my sausages in water, instead of pork lard.
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2013, 02:57:02 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Just make sure to only eat the pits and to spit out the oily liquid, straining the chewed olive flesh through your teeth. That's the Orthodox way.
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2013, 02:59:13 PM »

The food eaten on no-oil days is called xerophagia (dry food). That means no oil of any kind.

But if you boil or steam them, they won't be dry either.

Different kind of dry.
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2013, 03:06:41 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Sounds like something contrived after the fact.  Grapes or olives are no more alive or dead after they are pressed than before.  The pit or seeds can still be planted and will grow.  THAT would be more a symbol of resurrection.
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2013, 03:11:51 PM »

Certainly in the Greek tradition (at least in my experience of both parishes and monasteries), oil means oil of any kind.
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2013, 04:02:26 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!
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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2013, 07:04:01 PM »

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Are mashed potatoes OK during Great Lent?  Huh I hope so.
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2013, 07:11:26 PM »

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.  

Are mashed potatoes OK during Great Lent?  Huh I hope so.

Mashed potatoes are ok.  Vodka and potato wine not ok.  
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2013, 07:17:25 PM »

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Are mashed potatoes OK during Great Lent?  Huh I hope so.

Of course they are, if no dairy is used in them. Even on no-oil days, they might not taste as good without oil, but they're still perfectly lenten.
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2013, 07:29:32 PM »

When I was attending a Greek parish it seemed that the rule was no oil, no matter the kind. Also, no alcohol.

After I started to attend my current Antiochian parish one of our good friend (a deacon's wife) told us it was only olive oil, anything else was ok (how else are we to cook any thing?). Also since then I have heard that it is just wine and other alcohol is fine.

I guess it might just be jurisdiction preference so check with your priest.
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2013, 07:51:21 PM »

As has been said, there are many varied methods to following the fast which have been blessed by the hierarchs of various jurisdictions. I'm not here to debate anyone, and will probably only make this one post. I just want to share my practice.

That said, on a full fasting day, I avoid frying anything, regardless of the type of oil used. I also tend to avoid lavish use of oil (such as dipping for bread, etc.). Yes, the prohibition on olive oil was only for olive oil...but as was said, there was only olive oil then. I don't believe the Holy Fathers would've said "only olive oil, but the rest is fine." That doesn't really compute with me.

The same argument stands for alcoholic beverages. I avoid both wine and liquor. However, I will drink ciders alongside beer, as I believe them to be roughly equivalent.

I will use some substitutes, however, on a limited basis. I will fix toast will a vegetable oil spread (or flaxseed oil spread, quite healthy). I will also use almond/soy milk for IN things, like cereal. I don't really buy the argument that such substitutes are close enough to be "cheating." Then, after attending a ROCOR monastery during a fast and seeing the monks eat cereal with Silk, I was thoroughly convinced it was okay!
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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2013, 07:56:59 PM »

Then, after attending a ROCOR monastery during a fast and seeing the monks eat cereal with Silk, I was thoroughly convinced it was okay!

Was it Silk in 19th century Russia? Is outrage!

All my family ever buys is almond/soy milk no matter the time of year. But I am glad to know that some monastics see fit to use it during fasting periods.
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« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2013, 08:29:03 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.
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« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2013, 08:51:52 PM »

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.  

Are mashed potatoes OK during Great Lent?  Huh I hope so.

Mashed potatoes are ok.  Vodka and potato wine not ok.  

It was actually a joke. When you prepare mashed potatoes, you actually "press the living thing to death".
Sorry for the humour.
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« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2013, 08:57:24 PM »

Then, after attending a ROCOR monastery during a fast and seeing the monks eat cereal with Silk, I was thoroughly convinced it was okay!

Was it Silk in 19th century Russia? Is outrage!

All my family ever buys is almond/soy milk no matter the time of year. But I am glad to know that some monastics see fit to use it during fasting periods.

How terrible.  You know, pressing the life out of those soybeans, almonds and coconuts.
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« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2013, 10:15:35 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.

And I'll LOL.
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« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2013, 10:20:09 PM »

Holy fools were fond of eating sausages in Lent, but maybe, as Augustin points out, they fried them in water. Here, we fry one another in sarcasm, which produces a nice flavor, especially when washed down with moral superiority.
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« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2013, 12:09:15 AM »

Holy fools were fond of eating sausages in Lent, but maybe, as Augustin points out, they fried them in water. Here, we fry one another in sarcasm, which produces a nice flavor, especially when washed down with moral superiority.

Woe to those who think they are holy fools.
They may end up in an insane asylum.
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« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2013, 01:32:33 AM »

The food eaten on no-oil days is called xerophagia (dry food). That means no oil of any kind.

But if you boil or steam them, they won't be dry either.

Right, the canonical commentaries interpret "xerophagy" in the canons of the Faster, for example, as indicating only bread and water, and nothing more.  Footnotes to chapter 33 of the Typikon indicate that "dry food, refers to 'xerophagy,' which means unboiled food that is either raw, dried, salted or pickled, as well as plain bread"  http://www.orthodox.net/ustav/nativity-fast.html.   Yet we have Met. Kallistos with a different definition altogether. 
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« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2013, 06:20:47 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.

And I'll LOL.

A recommendation as well, of a sort.
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« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2013, 07:19:25 AM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

That would be an ask your priest kind of question.

I have heard that some folks scrupulously avoid any kind of oil during Great Lent except when olive oil and wine are allowed on special feast days, for example, for the Feast of The Annunciation, Saturdays, and Sundays.

Other folks are not so scrupulous and will use macadamian or coconut oil for cooking and flax seed oil in their salads. Use of other oils such as canola, sunflower oil, and safflower oils can be dangerous as they are high in Omega 6.

By the way, stay away from margarine.

Also, on feast days where olive oil is used, it is best to use Extra Virgin Olive Oil as most olive oils, especially those from Italy, are cut with rancid hazel nut oil or solvents which can kill you. One test is to put the olive oil in the refrigerator for 3 days. If it freezes or becomes solid, then it is most likely pure, but if it does not become solid, then it is guaranteed to have foreign substances including solvents that can kill you.

I wonder how this would work?  Oil is in almost any type of food.  Almost every type of bread/cracker/pastry contains oil.   I mean if you read the ingredients on SO many foods they contain oil based products.  I have bread crumbs with oil in them, as well as chocolate.

Nuts have oil in them - Peanut oil, almond oil, cashew oil.   Corn has oil in it.   Olives have oil.   Hemp has oil.  Rapeseed  has oil (canola).    Coconuts have oil.  Neem oil (common in India to brush teeth).

Also there is essential oils (some consume these, some use as smell) - such as oregano oil is consumed for colds... You can pretty much get oil from any plant (for essential oil) Is there a common "guide" out there on this subject?
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« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2013, 08:14:49 AM »

I wonder how this would work?  Oil is in almost any type of food.  Almost every type of bread/cracker/pastry contains oil.   I mean if you read the ingredients on SO many foods they contain oil based products.  I have bread crumbs with oil in them, as well as chocolate.

That's why the exclusion of oil makes such a huge difference to the severity of the fast (and why hardly anyone keeps it except for certain days - Good Friday, the evening before a Liturgy when you plan to commune, etc.). Saturdays and Sundays are not considered fasting days because you can use oil (though it's also because there's no total fast until the 9th hour).

You basically can't eat most things with an 'ingredients' label. You would make things like boiled/steamed vegetables, fruits, nuts, porridge, etc. You can get bread made with only flour, water and yeast, but if you don't make your own bread, going round the supermarket asking which breads have oil in them would be going a little overboard. If you're not cooking from scratch, it's more or less impossible to keep, at least not without going down the road of pharisaical pedantry.

Quote
Nuts have oil in them - Peanut oil, almond oil, cashew oil.   Corn has oil in it.   Olives have oil.   Hemp has oil.  Rapeseed  has oil (canola).    Coconuts have oil.

Olives contain olive oil, but they're still ok during fasting. Same thing.

You can pretty much get oil from any plant (for essential oil) Is there a common "guide" out there on this subject?

It's the use of oil in cooking, not the consumption of whatever oils or juices might be found naturally in food items - e.g. consuming olive oil while eating olives - you would have to extract the oil and use it as 'oil' for it to count.
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« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2013, 08:20:01 AM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.
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« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2013, 08:21:58 AM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.

I've heard many priests (married or monastic) give this advice.
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« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2013, 08:31:34 AM »

Holy fools were fond of eating sausages in Lent, but maybe, as Augustin points out, they fried them in water. Here, we fry one another in sarcasm, which produces a nice flavor, especially when washed down with moral superiority.

Best comment.
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« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2013, 09:09:59 AM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.

I've heard many priests (married or monastic) give this advice.

Which is why margarine is okay for oil-consuming days, despite being about 5% milk protein.
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« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2013, 09:33:25 AM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.

I've heard many priests (married or monastic) give this advice.

Which is why margarine is okay for oil-consuming days, despite being about 5% milk protein.

Not all margarines contain dairy. There are several brands available in any supermarket where I live which are dairy-free, suitable for those who are lactose-intolerant, or who are allergic to dairy products.  Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2013, 09:35:22 AM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.

I've heard many priests (married or monastic) give this advice.

Which is why margarine is okay for oil-consuming days, despite being about 5% milk protein.

Not all margarines contain dairy. There are several brands available in any supermarket where I live which are dairy-free, suitable for those who are lactose-intolerant, or who are allergic to dairy products.  Smiley

Extra bonus points to those Smiley But any ol' yellow tub will do the trick.
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« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2013, 09:39:47 AM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.

I've heard many priests (married or monastic) give this advice.

Which is why margarine is okay for oil-consuming days, despite being about 5% milk protein.

Not all margarines contain dairy. There are several brands available in any supermarket where I live which are dairy-free, suitable for those who are lactose-intolerant, or who are allergic to dairy products.  Smiley

Extra bonus points to those Smiley But any ol' yellow tub will do the trick.

Some of us use them out of necessity, Lent or no Lent.  Smiley But you're quite right, overzealous ingredient-watching kinda defeats the purpose of eating simply and without fuss.
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« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2013, 09:41:15 AM »

Holy fools were fond of eating sausages in Lent, but maybe, as Augustin points out, they fried them in water. Here, we fry one another in sarcasm, which produces a nice flavor, especially when washed down with moral superiority.
I'm sure you're the only one here to consider yourself superior - unlike the rest of us who have risen above that  angel!
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« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2013, 09:44:42 AM »

Holy fools were fond of eating sausages in Lent, but maybe, as Augustin points out, they fried them in water. Here, we fry one another in sarcasm, which produces a nice flavor, especially when washed down with moral superiority.
I'm sure you're the only one here to consider yourself superior - unlike the rest of us who have risen above that  angel!

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« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2013, 10:13:28 AM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.

Or if it has the words "may".

"May contain milk"

Good for Lent  Grin Cheesy
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« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2013, 10:26:21 AM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.

I've heard many priests (married or monastic) give this advice.

Which is why margarine is okay for oil-consuming days, despite being about 5% milk protein.

Not all margarines contain dairy. There are several brands available in any supermarket where I live which are dairy-free, suitable for those who are lactose-intolerant, or who are allergic to dairy products.  Smiley

Extra bonus points to those Smiley But any ol' yellow tub will do the trick.

Some of us use them out of necessity, Lent or no Lent.  Smiley But you're quite right, overzealous ingredient-watching kinda defeats the purpose of eating simply and without fuss.

Yeah, I'm pretty much screwed.  Whenever I fast I am not eating simply and there is plenty of fuss (assuming you are using fuss as "unnecessary concern or effort").  McDonalds and Taco Bell are simple and without fuss.
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« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2013, 10:38:09 AM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.

I've heard many priests (married or monastic) give this advice.

Which is why margarine is okay for oil-consuming days, despite being about 5% milk protein.

Not all margarines contain dairy. There are several brands available in any supermarket where I live which are dairy-free, suitable for those who are lactose-intolerant, or who are allergic to dairy products.  Smiley

Extra bonus points to those Smiley But any ol' yellow tub will do the trick.

Some of us use them out of necessity, Lent or no Lent.  Smiley But you're quite right, overzealous ingredient-watching kinda defeats the purpose of eating simply and without fuss.

Yeah, I'm pretty much screwed.  Whenever I fast I am not eating simply and there is plenty of fuss (assuming you are using fuss as "unnecessary concern or effort").  McDonalds and Taco Bell are simple and without fuss.

McDonalds in Greece have a Lenten menu.

Talk about peer pressure. angel
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« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2013, 10:45:09 AM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.

I've heard many priests (married or monastic) give this advice.

Which is why margarine is okay for oil-consuming days, despite being about 5% milk protein.

Not all margarines contain dairy. There are several brands available in any supermarket where I live which are dairy-free, suitable for those who are lactose-intolerant, or who are allergic to dairy products.  Smiley

Extra bonus points to those Smiley But any ol' yellow tub will do the trick.

Some of us use them out of necessity, Lent or no Lent.  Smiley But you're quite right, overzealous ingredient-watching kinda defeats the purpose of eating simply and without fuss.

My first Lent I was the absolute epitome of the overzealous ingredient watcher. My wife first tried to talk me out of it (to no avail, I'm afraid) and eventually got so fed up with me that she went to our priest and told him that I was making myself ill (and, I imagine though I wasn't actually there, driving her mad). He then took me aside and said I needed to stop reading the labels (completely, no 5th ingredient doesn't count thing) - if it wasn't obvious that it wasn't lenten without scouring the label then I was to take it as being fine. That was some of the best advice on fasting I ever got.

James

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« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2013, 10:54:38 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

I asked a GOA bishop this once. Why are olives ok but not olive oil? There followed a long discourse on fasting - but in a nutshell it seemed to be, "because this is the way we do it."

 Grin
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« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2013, 11:13:17 AM »

McDonalds in Greece have a Lenten menu.

Same in Cyprus
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« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2013, 11:44:10 AM »

McDonalds in Greece have a Lenten menu.

Same in Cyprus


McSarakosti... heh.
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« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2013, 11:51:08 AM »

Let me see: I would like

Scripture readings, patience and understanding instead of a hamburger.
Humilty rather than fries and quietness rather than noise and sausages.
Many good liturgical experiences rather than dessert.

But most of all spiritual growth and quiet times alone with God.

This maybe at first hand seems like sarcasm or attacks, but it is personal wishes for the Great Lent to be a learningfilled one.
And for a time that in many ways are very difficult because of situations within my path towards the church to have a good and blessed outcome.
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« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2013, 12:11:32 PM »

The answer is to do what your spiritual father says.

In practice, I have seen many different instructions.  In traditional Greek and Russian practice, as I have been taught, "no oil" means "no oil" of any kind.  This means not to cook with oil, not to add oil to one's food, and not to buy food made with oil.  It does not mean to avoid foods that naturally contain some oils.  That being said, I certainly am familiar with the fact that some clergy in various jurisdictions in this country say that "no oil" means "no olive oil".  To me, switching from olive oil to vegetable oil for the fasts is not much of a sacrifice. 

Protopresbyter Alexander Lebedeff, the most senior cleric of ROCOR, makes some good comments on the subject here:

http://www.orthodox.net/articles/fasting-and-oil.html

I also don't understand the allowance of beer or other forms of alcohol on "no wine" days, however.  According to the instructions of our spiritual father, "no wine" = "no alcohol", but I understand that beer is permitted on "no wine" days in Slavic practice and perhaps in other local traditions.  Beer seems to have been consumed throughout Lent in monasteries in the West, but this may have been by necessity on account of poor sanitation and poor nutrition (lack of drinkable water and lack of sufficient food). 
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« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2013, 12:28:36 PM »

McDonalds in Greece have a Lenten menu.

Talk about peer pressure. angel

Same in the Philippines.  Being once a predominantly Roman Catholic country, most restaurants will have fish on their menu for Lent being it is Lent.  McDonald's has pulled Fillet-o-Fish from their menu there many times because it tends to be on the pricier side than most of their other menu items, but they bring it back for Lent every year.

Plus, being a tropical island, there is an abundance of shrimp and squid.  Crab can be expensive in the city, but if you are out on the fishing villages you can get them much, much cheaper.
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« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2013, 03:45:08 PM »

I wonder how this would work?  Oil is in almost any type of food.  Almost every type of bread/cracker/pastry contains oil.   I mean if you read the ingredients on SO many foods they contain oil based products.  I have bread crumbs with oil in them, as well as chocolate.

Nuts have oil in them - Peanut oil, almond oil, cashew oil.   Corn has oil in it.   Olives have oil.   Hemp has oil.  Rapeseed  has oil (canola).    Coconuts have oil.  Neem oil (common in India to brush teeth).

Also there is essential oils (some consume these, some use as smell) - such as oregano oil is consumed for colds... You can pretty much get oil from any plant (for essential oil) Is there a common "guide" out there on this subject?

The rule passed down to me, coming from Archbishop Dmitri of Dallas (of Blessed Memory), is when you're eating such processed foods (including canned foods, pre-cooked, breads, etc.) to read the top five ingredients. If these are fasting, ignore the rest and eat it. The idea being that, if it's beyond the fifth ingredient, there's so little of it that it probably cannot be considered decadent of otherwise fast-breaking.
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« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2013, 03:53:43 PM »

It is followed by cheesefare week where the only dietary restriction is meat, but everything else up to and including dairy is allowed. Cheesefare sunday ends cheesefare week and is the last day before lent begins on clean monday.

Just picking a nit: Wednesdays and Fridays during Meatfare week and Cheesefare week are full fasting days (as Wednesdays and Fridays usually would be).  In fact, during Cheesefare week  Wed and Fri are treated as if they were lenten days (singing Alleluias, no Divine Liturgies, etc.).
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« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2013, 03:57:13 PM »

It is followed by cheesefare week where the only dietary restriction is meat, but everything else up to and including dairy is allowed. Cheesefare sunday ends cheesefare week and is the last day before lent begins on clean monday.

Just picking a nit: Wednesdays and Fridays during Meatfare week and Cheesefare week are full fasting days (as Wednesdays and Fridays usually would be).  In fact, during Cheesefare week  Wed and Fri are treated as if they were lenten days (singing Alleluias, no Divine Liturgies, etc.).

During Meatfare: yes, however everyone told me Cheesefare week is a fast-free one.
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« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2013, 04:10:35 PM »

It is followed by cheesefare week where the only dietary restriction is meat, but everything else up to and including dairy is allowed. Cheesefare sunday ends cheesefare week and is the last day before lent begins on clean monday.

Just picking a nit: Wednesdays and Fridays during Meatfare week and Cheesefare week are full fasting days (as Wednesdays and Fridays usually would be).  In fact, during Cheesefare week  Wed and Fri are treated as if they were lenten days (singing Alleluias, no Divine Liturgies, etc.).

During Meatfare: yes, however everyone told me Cheesefare week is a fast-free one.

My planner from GOARCH has "dairy permitted" every day this week.
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« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2013, 04:11:47 PM »

It is followed by cheesefare week where the only dietary restriction is meat, but everything else up to and including dairy is allowed. Cheesefare sunday ends cheesefare week and is the last day before lent begins on clean monday.

Just picking a nit: Wednesdays and Fridays during Meatfare week and Cheesefare week are full fasting days (as Wednesdays and Fridays usually would be).  In fact, during Cheesefare week  Wed and Fri are treated as if they were lenten days (singing Alleluias, no Divine Liturgies, etc.).
I've seen some variations in the rule, but does this mean your rule is different from the GOA calendar?
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« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2013, 04:12:59 PM »

It is followed by cheesefare week where the only dietary restriction is meat, but everything else up to and including dairy is allowed. Cheesefare sunday ends cheesefare week and is the last day before lent begins on clean monday.

Just picking a nit: Wednesdays and Fridays during Meatfare week and Cheesefare week are full fasting days (as Wednesdays and Fridays usually would be).  In fact, during Cheesefare week  Wed and Fri are treated as if they were lenten days (singing Alleluias, no Divine Liturgies, etc.).

During Meatfare: yes, however everyone told me Cheesefare week is a fast-free one.

My planner from GOARCH has "dairy permitted" every day this week.

My OCA calendar says the same, and that's the tradition I've been taught and have followed for years.

But, Wednesday and Friday are very important days in Cheesefare Week, as they are our preview into Lent, liturgically speaking.
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« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2013, 04:53:11 PM »

It is followed by cheesefare week where the only dietary restriction is meat, but everything else up to and including dairy is allowed. Cheesefare sunday ends cheesefare week and is the last day before lent begins on clean monday.

Just picking a nit: Wednesdays and Fridays during Meatfare week and Cheesefare week are full fasting days (as Wednesdays and Fridays usually would be).  In fact, during Cheesefare week  Wed and Fri are treated as if they were lenten days (singing Alleluias, no Divine Liturgies, etc.).

During Meatfare: yes, however everyone told me Cheesefare week is a fast-free one.

My planner from GOARCH has "dairy permitted" every day this week.

My OCA calendar says the same, and that's the tradition I've been taught and have followed for years.

But, Wednesday and Friday are very important days in Cheesefare Week, as they are our preview into Lent, liturgically speaking.

The usual Wednesday and Friday fasts are forgone this week in favore of a uniform fast for the entire week.  So dairy are allowed on Wednesday and Friday, just for this week.
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« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2013, 04:57:15 PM »

The usual Wednesday and Friday fasts are forgone this week in favore of a uniform fast for the entire week.  So dairy are allowed on Wednesday and Friday, just for this week.

There is no fast, only food restrictions. Other fast-regulated activities like partying are allowed.
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« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2013, 05:55:53 PM »

It is followed by cheesefare week where the only dietary restriction is meat, but everything else up to and including dairy is allowed. Cheesefare sunday ends cheesefare week and is the last day before lent begins on clean monday.

Just picking a nit: Wednesdays and Fridays during Meatfare week and Cheesefare week are full fasting days (as Wednesdays and Fridays usually would be).  In fact, during Cheesefare week  Wed and Fri are treated as if they were lenten days (singing Alleluias, no Divine Liturgies, etc.).

During Meatfare: yes, however everyone told me Cheesefare week is a fast-free one.

My planner from GOARCH has "dairy permitted" every day this week.

... and neither of my Slavic calendars mention any fasting during Cheesefare, other than from meat.
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« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2013, 06:16:57 PM »

The usual Wednesday and Friday fasts are forgone this week in favore of a uniform fast for the entire week.  So dairy are allowed on Wednesday and Friday, just for this week.

There is no fast, only food restrictions. Other fast-regulated activities like partying are allowed.

But forgoing meat is still fasting.  Unless you want to call it "abstinence" Wink
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« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2013, 06:20:06 PM »

The usual Wednesday and Friday fasts are forgone this week in favore of a uniform fast for the entire week.  So dairy are allowed on Wednesday and Friday, just for this week.

There is no fast, only food restrictions. Other fast-regulated activities like partying are allowed.

But forgoing meat is still fasting.  Unless you want to call it "abstinence" Wink

It's called "diet". And fasting is not diet (however many confuse these two).
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« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2013, 06:23:17 PM »

It's called "diet". And fasting is not diet (however many confuse these two).

Forgoing anything is fasting.  It doesn't have to be a general "giving up" of a number of things.
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« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2013, 07:08:38 PM »

It's called "diet". And fasting is not diet (however many confuse these two).

Forgoing anything is fasting.  It doesn't have to be a general "giving up" of a number of things.

There is liturgical fasting and medical fasting.
There is also social dieting to fit into a wedding dress or swim suit.
And there is anorexia.

Eating olives and avoiding olive oil for the right reason is what counts.
If we avoid olive oil, cheese, and meats to please our fellow parishioners, but have not love, it counts as nothing. It is very important to pray when engaging in a lenten fast.
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« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2013, 07:47:35 PM »

It doesn't count if it 5th or after that on the ingredients list.

I've heard many priests (married or monastic) give this advice.

Which is why margarine is okay for oil-consuming days, despite being about 5% milk protein.

Not all margarines contain dairy. There are several brands available in any supermarket where I live which are dairy-free, suitable for those who are lactose-intolerant, or who are allergic to dairy products.  Smiley

Extra bonus points to those Smiley But any ol' yellow tub will do the trick.

Some of us use them out of necessity, Lent or no Lent.  Smiley But you're quite right, overzealous ingredient-watching kinda defeats the purpose of eating simply and without fuss.

Exactly. Lent is supposed to get us away from obsessing over food, but it's really easy to become more obsessed.
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« Reply #78 on: March 11, 2013, 07:48:26 PM »

Holy fools were fond of eating sausages in Lent, but maybe, as Augustin points out, they fried them in water. Here, we fry one another in sarcasm, which produces a nice flavor, especially when washed down with moral superiority.
I'm sure you're the only one here to consider yourself superior - unlike the rest of us who have risen above that  angel!

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« Reply #79 on: March 11, 2013, 07:53:56 PM »

In Westernspeak, they use abstinence for avoiding foods and fasting for not eating. This is accurate and should be employed in Orthodoxy universally. For goodness sake, we have hypertechnical theological terms, we might as well have more accurate terms for our praxis.
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« Reply #80 on: March 11, 2013, 08:59:16 PM »

What do you guys think?  There is varied opinion on this.

Yes there is.  For my part, if we are going to get all pharisee about this fasting stuff, let's go by the letter of the words.  Avoid olive oil.  They did not have the other oils back then, so I use them.  Same with wine.  No wine.  Jack Daniels did not come till later, so it is OK.  And forget about 70/30 hamburger on sale at the grocery store.  It's lobster and shrimp baby, all the way.  They are particularly good when smothered in Jack Daniels sauce.  Margarine should be OK, as long as it does not have olive oil in it.  You know, coconut oil is pretty good stuff.  I use that a lot.  It also works as a good skin softener.

Lent is so much fun.

Jack Daniels = hard liquor
Is that why some people drink beer all during Lent?
Yeah, in that case, Great Lent should be a smash. Why do Great Lent?

Aren't we to be sober and watchful? How can one be sober with a daily diet of Jack Daniels and beer?

Back on the topic of olive oil. Margarine is not okay, yet many folks use it during Lent as a substitute for butter. However, margarine has been implicated in breast cancer and in other cancers.

If one is told to avoid olive oil and other oils, then applesauce can be substituted for oil in most recipes.
In salads, one can mash an avocado and add that to a salad as a dressing.






Margarine can be very unhealthy. Vegetable oils in general should never be eaten if you want to avoid all kinds of nasty illnesses. Canola is not as bad as the others. There is one brand that I know of that uses Canola and adds Omega 3 fats which are very healthy for you.

Coconut oil is the very best substitute out there. We can use olive oil on most weekends so I suggest using a lot of it then.
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« Reply #81 on: March 11, 2013, 09:13:16 PM »

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.
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« Reply #82 on: March 11, 2013, 09:54:12 PM »

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.

Exactly, there are some very scrupulous priests who do not even want those parishioners with serious allergies looking beyond the five major ingredients in processed foods. What are they doing telling their parishioners to eat PROCESSED foods for Lent in the first place?

Most processed foods contain GMO corn and soy. As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.
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« Reply #83 on: March 11, 2013, 10:32:26 PM »

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.

Amen.
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« Reply #84 on: March 11, 2013, 10:40:25 PM »

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.

Exactly, there are some very scrupulous priests who do not even want those parishioners with serious allergies looking beyond the five major ingredients in processed foods. What are they doing telling their parishioners to eat PROCESSED foods for Lent in the first place?

Most processed foods contain GMO corn and soy. As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.

While I certainly agree with you on reasons of health, it can also be difficult for some to always afford such food, and others to have time to prepare a filling meal. Many working families don't always have time to fix a nice breakfast or lunch. Processed foods aren't the best for you, but it's sometimes hard to avoid.

That said, not all processed foods are things like big pastries or fatty snacks, and so I don't think they can all be considered inappropriate for Lent. They're aren't the ideal, but sometimes the ideal is beyond reach.
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« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2013, 11:08:32 PM »

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.

Exactly, there are some very scrupulous priests who do not even want those parishioners with serious allergies looking beyond the five major ingredients in processed foods. What are they doing telling their parishioners to eat PROCESSED foods for Lent in the first place?

Most processed foods contain GMO corn and soy. As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.

While I certainly agree with you on reasons of health, it can also be difficult for some to always afford such food, and others to have time to prepare a filling meal. Many working families don't always have time to fix a nice breakfast or lunch. Processed foods aren't the best for you, but it's sometimes hard to avoid.

That said, not all processed foods are things like big pastries or fatty snacks, and so I don't think they can all be considered inappropriate for Lent. They're aren't the ideal, but sometimes the ideal is beyond reach.

Monks dig up potatoes and carrots and add some greens like broccoli to make a daily Lenten soup.
Things grown in the garden can be delicious. Mushrooms can be grown in cellars. They are also very nutritious and if added to a potato, onion, and carrot soup, this can be a very hardy and nutritious soup.
A couple of sliced olives will give that soup a sensational flavor. No need to add olive oil.
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« Reply #86 on: March 11, 2013, 11:09:55 PM »

When I lived in an apartment before I got married, I had my own garden in a box. I grew tomatoes, carrots, potatoes, and onions. I would plant the spuds that were sprouting.
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« Reply #87 on: March 11, 2013, 11:14:31 PM »

Keep thine eyes on thine own plate. Or pluck them out.
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« Reply #88 on: March 11, 2013, 11:23:52 PM »

Keep thine eyes on thine own plate. Or pluck them out.

... just don't eat 'em. They're not Lenten.  laugh laugh
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« Reply #89 on: March 11, 2013, 11:58:38 PM »

Keep thine eyes on thine own plate. Or pluck them out.

Beware the cane-carrying yiayia or grumpy orthocat.
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« Reply #90 on: March 12, 2013, 02:06:41 AM »

So I guess I now where we're going for Lent...

http://www.thecrabpotseattle.com/pdf/Crab_Pot_Seattle_Seafeasts.pdf

My toddler son can have the sausage, he's not going to eat the seafood anyway.

 Wink
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« Reply #91 on: March 12, 2013, 02:46:31 AM »

As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

He is a cretin.

Mushrooms can be grown in cellars. They are also very nutritious and if added to a potato, onion, and carrot soup, this can be a very hardy and nutritious soup.

Mushrooms have almost no nutritious value. They are eaten only for taste.

Quote
Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.

You don't eat strawberries, do you?
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« Reply #92 on: March 12, 2013, 03:10:07 AM »

Growing up in the OCA, we would fast from all meat and dairy (including eggs) during lent.   Almost anything with oil in the ingredients we avoided, but I don't think it was a rule.  II remember my mother shelving things that contained oil on several occasions.   But that was always processed stuff.   Foods that naturally contained oil eaten in whole form (nuts, olives, corn, etc.) we ate.

We were also told by our parents that we couldn't have slumber parties with friends, so that we could keep focus on God. (we'd still see friends, just no long ordeals)   Also, they unplugged TV & Video games (Atari 2600 anybody?) to allow us more time to reflect on God.   
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« Reply #93 on: March 12, 2013, 05:30:59 AM »

In Westernspeak, they use abstinence for avoiding foods and fasting for not eating. This is accurate and should be employed in Orthodoxy universally. For goodness sake, we have hypertechnical theological terms, we might as well have more accurate terms for our praxis.

+1
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« Reply #94 on: March 12, 2013, 10:09:53 AM »

Finally going to muster up the courage to ask my Priest about these fasting guidelines today.  Ive always been too scared as I have always taken a slightly less strict stance on the items in question, such as alcohol and certain oils.  At times, id have a beer during fasts since in some traditions its allowed, and if I wasnt supposed to have it I didnt want to know!  Im actually curious to see what my Priest(s) have to say now.  Although I am still a catechumen, I have declined 2 offers to be Chrismated as I am kinda/sorta waiting on my wife to come around. Since my Priest feels I am ready to be Orthodox, I should probably try to live as Orthodox as possible, even if it means not having that brewsky with my lenten salad...

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« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2013, 10:33:44 AM »

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.

Exactly, there are some very scrupulous priests who do not even want those parishioners with serious allergies looking beyond the five major ingredients in processed foods. What are they doing telling their parishioners to eat PROCESSED foods for Lent in the first place?

Most processed foods contain GMO corn and soy. As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.

While I certainly agree with you on reasons of health, it can also be difficult for some to always afford such food, and others to have time to prepare a filling meal. Many working families don't always have time to fix a nice breakfast or lunch. Processed foods aren't the best for you, but it's sometimes hard to avoid.

That said, not all processed foods are things like big pastries or fatty snacks, and so I don't think they can all be considered inappropriate for Lent. They're aren't the ideal, but sometimes the ideal is beyond reach.

Monks dig up potatoes and carrots and add some greens like broccoli to make a daily Lenten soup.
Things grown in the garden can be delicious. Mushrooms can be grown in cellars. They are also very nutritious and if added to a potato, onion, and carrot soup, this can be a very hardy and nutritious soup.
A couple of sliced olives will give that soup a sensational flavor. No need to add olive oil.

Monks have that luxury.  Those of us working in powerplants 10 - 13 hours per day, six or seven days a week do not.  We either eat what we carry or eat what they serve us (we have a cafeteria there).  Funny thing is, two priests have told me to do the best that I can, but make sure that I am alert and concentrating on my job, even if it means that I do not fast.  The third insists upon keeping the fast and says that hunger is good for you and makes you dwell on the spiritual.  Does anyone want to guess which two priests actually worked as something other than a priest during sometime of their life?

In any case, Lent used to be my favorite time of the Church year.  I have come to hate it with a passion since becoming Orthodox.  How wonderful it would be to see a thread discussing increased alms during lent and which charities could use the money most.  Or, how best to go about visiting people in the hospitals or nursing homes.  Or how we can best use the money that we are supposed to save with these "fasts" to best help those in our community that need the help.  But no, we are too busy trying to out Jew the Jews in our meaningless works that benefit nobody but ourselves (if even that, since all the discussion and "look at me, I'm fasting" posts probably eliminate anything the fasting would have done).  After all, let us remember the story of Jesus at the Last Judgment:

When I was hungry, you fed me.
When I was thirsty, you gave me drink.
When I was naked, you clothed me.
When I was sick, you comforted me.
When I was in prison, you visited me.
But I saw you eat a hamburger during the fast, SO YOU CAN GO TO HELL!

said Jesus never.
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« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2013, 10:49:55 AM »

You're right about the true purpose of fasting, which is why we read that Gospel passage on the day before Lent (or Cheesefare week at any rate) begins. I think, or at least hope, that the reason most threads about Lent are about food is not because people think that's all there is to Lent, but because these are more or less objective questions. I see 'no oil' written on my calendar and don't know if that means olive oil or any oil, so I write a quick note on oc.net rather than bother my priest about it - it might not be something I intend to follow, I might just be curious as to what is meant. The rules/guidelines of the Church are discussed, who actually eats what and when is not. Things like almsgiving, charity work, abstaining from certain activities are subjective and not necessarily things people wish to discuss on an internet forum, or even among friends. Much in the same way, I might ask if it's correct to read/sing this or that during a service, but I wouldn't ask for advice about my personal prayer rule, or my spiritual life in general.
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« Reply #97 on: March 12, 2013, 10:56:50 AM »

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.

Exactly, there are some very scrupulous priests who do not even want those parishioners with serious allergies looking beyond the five major ingredients in processed foods. What are they doing telling their parishioners to eat PROCESSED foods for Lent in the first place?

Most processed foods contain GMO corn and soy. As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.

While I certainly agree with you on reasons of health, it can also be difficult for some to always afford such food, and others to have time to prepare a filling meal. Many working families don't always have time to fix a nice breakfast or lunch. Processed foods aren't the best for you, but it's sometimes hard to avoid.

That said, not all processed foods are things like big pastries or fatty snacks, and so I don't think they can all be considered inappropriate for Lent. They're aren't the ideal, but sometimes the ideal is beyond reach.

Monks dig up potatoes and carrots and add some greens like broccoli to make a daily Lenten soup.
Things grown in the garden can be delicious. Mushrooms can be grown in cellars. They are also very nutritious and if added to a potato, onion, and carrot soup, this can be a very hardy and nutritious soup.
A couple of sliced olives will give that soup a sensational flavor. No need to add olive oil.

Monks have that luxury.  Those of us working in powerplants 10 - 13 hours per day, six or seven days a week do not.  We either eat what we carry or eat what they serve us (we have a cafeteria there).  Funny thing is, two priests have told me to do the best that I can, but make sure that I am alert and concentrating on my job, even if it means that I do not fast.  The third insists upon keeping the fast and says that hunger is good for you and makes you dwell on the spiritual.  Does anyone want to guess which two priests actually worked as something other than a priest during sometime of their life?

In any case, Lent used to be my favorite time of the Church year.  I have come to hate it with a passion since becoming Orthodox.  How wonderful it would be to see a thread discussing increased alms during lent and which charities could use the money most.  Or, how best to go about visiting people in the hospitals or nursing homes.  Or how we can best use the money that we are supposed to save with these "fasts" to best help those in our community that need the help.  But no, we are too busy trying to out Jew the Jews in our meaningless works that benefit nobody but ourselves (if even that, since all the discussion and "look at me, I'm fasting" posts probably eliminate anything the fasting would have done).  After all, let us remember the story of Jesus at the Last Judgment:

When I was hungry, you fed me.
When I was thirsty, you gave me drink.
When I was naked, you clothed me.
When I was sick, you comforted me.
When I was in prison, you visited me.
But I saw you eat a hamburger during the fast, SO YOU CAN GO TO HELL!

said Jesus never.

Your clarity here expresses what I was taught with a precision and depth my father, a priest - full time for 65 years - would have endorsed with his characteristic smile.

Look to your plate, not your neighbor's was his rule. Of course the abstinence rules of the Church are important but excessive legalism is one reason we left the Catholic church. (Papal version that is)

Remember this when the wonderous Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom is proclaimed.

(Personal note- we don't always disagree! Wink )
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« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2013, 10:59:01 AM »

You're right about the true purpose of fasting, which is why we read that Gospel passage on the day before Lent (or Cheesefare week at any rate) begins. I think, or at least hope, that the reason most threads about Lent are about food is not because people think that's all there is to Lent, but because these are more or less objective questions. I see 'no oil' written on my calendar and don't know if that means olive oil or any oil, so I write a quick note on oc.net rather than bother my priest about it - it might not be something I intend to follow, I might just be curious as to what is meant. The rules/guidelines of the Church are discussed, who actually eats what and when is not. Things like almsgiving, charity work, abstaining from certain activities are subjective and not necessarily things people wish to discuss on an internet forum, or even among friends. Much in the same way, I might ask if it's correct to read/sing this or that during a service, but I wouldn't ask for advice about my personal prayer rule, or my spiritual life in general.

True, but many equate a rigid legalism with a "pure" spiritual life.
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« Reply #99 on: March 12, 2013, 11:06:11 AM »

True, but many equate a rigid legalism with a "pure" spiritual life.

I'm sure if Punch fell asleep at the power plant because of intense fasting and blew up half a city as a result, some would consider him and those who died with him martyrs who gave their lives for the sake of the canons. Legalism is a problem, of course, but I don't think we should take discussions on message boards  - which many frequent precisely because they want to ask about technical or trivial things that aren't that important - as a reflection of people's actual priorities.
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« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2013, 11:15:32 AM »

True, but many equate a rigid legalism with a "pure" spiritual life.

I'm sure if Punch fell asleep at the power plant because of intense fasting and blew up half a city as a result, some would consider him and those who died with him martyrs who gave their lives for the sake of the canons.
hahaha awesome
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« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2013, 12:00:07 PM »

True, but many equate a rigid legalism with a "pure" spiritual life.

I'm sure if Punch fell asleep at the power plant because of intense fasting and blew up half a city as a result, some would consider him and those who died with him martyrs who gave their lives for the sake of the canons. Legalism is a problem, of course, but I don't think we should take discussions on message boards  - which many frequent precisely because they want to ask about technical or trivial things that aren't that important - as a reflection of people's actual priorities.

Again true, but the posters are not the only ones reading the posts and it serves an equally valid purpose to remind them that legalism is not at the core of our Lent.
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« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2013, 03:54:45 PM »

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.

Exactly, there are some very scrupulous priests who do not even want those parishioners with serious allergies looking beyond the five major ingredients in processed foods. What are they doing telling their parishioners to eat PROCESSED foods for Lent in the first place?

Most processed foods contain GMO corn and soy. As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.

While I certainly agree with you on reasons of health, it can also be difficult for some to always afford such food, and others to have time to prepare a filling meal. Many working families don't always have time to fix a nice breakfast or lunch. Processed foods aren't the best for you, but it's sometimes hard to avoid.

That said, not all processed foods are things like big pastries or fatty snacks, and so I don't think they can all be considered inappropriate for Lent. They're aren't the ideal, but sometimes the ideal is beyond reach.

Monks dig up potatoes and carrots and add some greens like broccoli to make a daily Lenten soup.
Things grown in the garden can be delicious. Mushrooms can be grown in cellars. They are also very nutritious and if added to a potato, onion, and carrot soup, this can be a very hardy and nutritious soup.
A couple of sliced olives will give that soup a sensational flavor. No need to add olive oil.

Monks have that luxury.  Those of us working in powerplants 10 - 13 hours per day, six or seven days a week do not.  We either eat what we carry or eat what they serve us (we have a cafeteria there).  Funny thing is, two priests have told me to do the best that I can, but make sure that I am alert and concentrating on my job, even if it means that I do not fast.  The third insists upon keeping the fast and says that hunger is good for you and makes you dwell on the spiritual.  Does anyone want to guess which two priests actually worked as something other than a priest during sometime of their life?

In any case, Lent used to be my favorite time of the Church year.  I have come to hate it with a passion since becoming Orthodox.  How wonderful it would be to see a thread discussing increased alms during lent and which charities could use the money most.  Or, how best to go about visiting people in the hospitals or nursing homes.  Or how we can best use the money that we are supposed to save with these "fasts" to best help those in our community that need the help.  But no, we are too busy trying to out Jew the Jews in our meaningless works that benefit nobody but ourselves (if even that, since all the discussion and "look at me, I'm fasting" posts probably eliminate anything the fasting would have done).  After all, let us remember the story of Jesus at the Last Judgment:

When I was hungry, you fed me.
When I was thirsty, you gave me drink.
When I was naked, you clothed me.
When I was sick, you comforted me.
When I was in prison, you visited me.
But I saw you eat a hamburger during the fast, SO YOU CAN GO TO HELL!

said Jesus never.

 I don't think giving more alms and fasting should be juxtaposed to each other. If you lighten up your diet and go to the services you will also find giving alms to be of benefit in cultivating the virtues.

A good idea is to get some amount of cash and then drive around looking for the beggars who stand at intersections. Pop them a 10 or 20 if you can or go around giving what you can afford.. They will probably bless you for it.
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« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2013, 09:07:24 PM »

No one in the history of the Church has addressed fasting with the clarity expressed by St. John Chrysostom.

ON FASTING:" Fasting is the change of every part of our life, because the sacrifice of the fast is not the abstinence but the distancing from sins. Therefore, whoever limits the fast to the deprivation of food, he is the one who, in reality, abhors and ridicules the fast. Are you fasting? Show me your fast with your works. Which works? If you see someone who is poor, show him mercy. If you see an enemy, reconcile with him. If you see a friend who is becoming successful, do not be jealous of him! If you see a beautiful woman on the street, pass her by.

In other words, not only should the mouth fast, but the eyes and the legs and the arms and all the other parts of the body should fast as well. Let the
hands fast, remaining clean from stealing and greediness. Let the legs fast, avoiding roads which lead to sinful sights. Let the eyes fast by not fixing themselves on beautiful faces and by not observing the beauty of others. You are not eating meat, are you? You should not eat debauchery with your eyes as well. Let your hearing also fast. The fast of hearing is not to accept bad talk against others and sly defamations."   Fasting is the change of every part of our life, because the sacrifice of the fast is not the abstinence but the distancing from sins. Therefore, whoever limits the fast to the deprivation of food, he is the one who, in reality, abhors and ridicules the fast. Are you fasting? Show me your fast with your works. Which works? If you see someone who is poor, show him mercy. If you see an enemy, reconcile with him. If you see a friend who is becoming successful, do not be jealous of him! If you see a beautiful woman on the street, pass her by. "

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/ChrysostomFasting.php
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« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2013, 10:14:14 PM »

No one in the history of the Church has addressed fasting with the clarity expressed by St. John Chrysostom.

ON FASTING:" Fasting is the change of every part of our life, because the sacrifice of the fast is not the abstinence but the distancing from sins. Therefore, whoever limits the fast to the deprivation of food, he is the one who, in reality, abhors and ridicules the fast. Are you fasting? Show me your fast with your works. Which works? If you see someone who is poor, show him mercy. If you see an enemy, reconcile with him. If you see a friend who is becoming successful, do not be jealous of him! If you see a beautiful woman on the street, pass her by.

In other words, not only should the mouth fast, but the eyes and the legs and the arms and all the other parts of the body should fast as well. Let the
hands fast, remaining clean from stealing and greediness. Let the legs fast, avoiding roads which lead to sinful sights. Let the eyes fast by not fixing themselves on beautiful faces and by not observing the beauty of others. You are not eating meat, are you? You should not eat debauchery with your eyes as well. Let your hearing also fast. The fast of hearing is not to accept bad talk against others and sly defamations."   Fasting is the change of every part of our life, because the sacrifice of the fast is not the abstinence but the distancing from sins. Therefore, whoever limits the fast to the deprivation of food, he is the one who, in reality, abhors and ridicules the fast. Are you fasting? Show me your fast with your works. Which works? If you see someone who is poor, show him mercy. If you see an enemy, reconcile with him. If you see a friend who is becoming successful, do not be jealous of him! If you see a beautiful woman on the street, pass her by. "

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/ChrysostomFasting.php

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.
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« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2013, 10:36:52 PM »


No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal.  Smiley
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« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2013, 11:12:04 PM »


No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal.  Smiley

And then there is that vision of the Three Hierarchs.

Do you have an icon of the Three Hierarchs?
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« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2013, 11:22:04 PM »


No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal.  Smiley

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.
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« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2013, 11:50:01 PM »


Do you have an icon of the Three Hierarchs?

Yes. I have about a dozen of them on file.
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« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2013, 11:52:45 PM »


No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal.  Smiley

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument.  Shocked laugh
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« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2013, 11:56:48 PM »


No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal.  Smiley

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument.  Shocked laugh

Yet, St. John of Damascus lived centuries after St. John of Chrysostom, and many of St. John of Chrysostom's sermons and writings are apparently lost to history.
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« Reply #111 on: March 13, 2013, 07:40:41 AM »


No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal.  Smiley

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument.  Shocked laugh

Yet, St. John of Damascus lived centuries after St. John of Chrysostom, and many of St. John of Chrysostom's sermons and writings are apparently lost to history.

OK, fine. But why must everything become an issue, an argument, on OC.net of late?

What has this to do with the oil question?
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« Reply #112 on: March 13, 2013, 08:46:28 AM »


No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal.  Smiley

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument.  Shocked laugh

Yet, St. John of Damascus lived centuries after St. John of Chrysostom, and many of St. John of Chrysostom's sermons and writings are apparently lost to history.

OK, fine. But why must everything become an issue, an argument, on OC.net of late?

What has this to do with the oil question?

If the food is the least important aspect of a true fast, then what oil you avoid is almost a meaningless question.
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« Reply #113 on: March 13, 2013, 09:26:29 AM »


No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal.  Smiley

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument.  Shocked laugh

Yet, St. John of Damascus lived centuries after St. John of Chrysostom, and many of St. John of Chrysostom's sermons and writings are apparently lost to history.

OK, fine. But why must everything become an issue, an argument, on OC.net of late?

What has this to do with the oil question?

If the food is the least important aspect of a true fast, then what oil you avoid is almost a meaningless question.
Fine. Then explain how the dueling "fathers" debate works here, too.
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« Reply #114 on: March 13, 2013, 09:30:30 AM »

Were they arguing or just carrying on a bit of teasing one or that would posts too far? Smiley
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« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2013, 09:50:18 AM »

Were they arguing or just carrying on a bit of teasing one or that would posts too far? Smiley


The smileys in my posts in that series make it clear I wasn't looking for an argument.  angel Why Maria chose to post the way she did in #110 is beyond me.  Huh
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« Reply #116 on: March 13, 2013, 10:05:45 AM »

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.
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« Reply #117 on: March 14, 2013, 12:01:58 AM »

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.
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« Reply #118 on: March 14, 2013, 01:34:47 AM »

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

The Holy Fathers talk about the necessity to avoid overeating because there is a connection between gluttony and lust. Eating and drinking to the point of being stuffed violates the virtue of Temperance. Too much food and wine can stimulate lustful passions. We are to be ever sober and watchful, for the devil like a roaring lion seeks those whom he may devour.  See: I Peter 5:8.
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« Reply #119 on: March 14, 2013, 01:51:12 AM »

LOL @ oil. If I am avoiding a triple bacon cheeseburger with a milkshake two days into Lent I'm doing awesome. Olive oil is not a concern at this stage, and would be an improvement over most things.
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« Reply #120 on: March 14, 2013, 02:03:35 AM »

Fine. Then explain how the dueling "fathers" debate works here, too.

Like this...

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« Reply #121 on: March 14, 2013, 08:34:53 AM »

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.i
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

The pasta might prepare you for a grueling bicycle race, but lust? Unless you have a weird food fetish.....?

Seriously, a good post. We view crab, lobster, etc... as delicacies today. Were they detested or viewed negatively by Mediterranean peoples back in an earlier time?
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« Reply #122 on: March 14, 2013, 08:38:21 AM »

Fine. Then explain how the dueling "fathers" debate works here, too.

Like this...



St. Augustine always feel bad, he's always the last guy picked.  Wink  (me bad)
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« Reply #123 on: March 14, 2013, 06:47:47 PM »

Quote
We view crab, lobster, etc... as delicacies today. Were they detested or viewed negatively by Mediterranean peoples back in an earlier time?

Shellfish and molluscs were considered "poor man's food" up until very recently. Historically, the most valuable part of a fisherman's catch was the fish. The other critters left in the nets once the fish had been picked out were either kept for himself, or sold, but at a lower price than the fish.

The luxury tag for caviar has been around for barely 200 years, when the Russian imperial family and court developed a taste for this "peasant food". It didn't take long for the noble classes everywhere to clamor for it. The rest is history.
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« Reply #124 on: March 14, 2013, 07:40:14 PM »


No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal.  Smiley

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument.  Shocked laugh

Yet, St. John of Damascus lived centuries after St. John of Chrysostom, and many of St. John of Chrysostom's sermons and writings are apparently lost to history.

OK, fine. But why must everything become an issue, an argument, on OC.net of late?

What has this to do with the oil question?

If the food is the least important aspect of a true fast, then what oil you avoid is almost a meaningless question.
Fine. Then explain how the dueling "fathers" debate works here, too.

I have no idea of what you are talking about.
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« Reply #125 on: March 14, 2013, 07:44:07 PM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?
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« Reply #126 on: March 14, 2013, 07:47:10 PM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

Does your whining improve the situation?


And BTW, the forum's purpose:

Quote
To be clear, this site exists as an Orthodox Forum where people who identify themselves as Orthodox are given a place to discuss things pertinent to the Orthodox Faith.  In practicality, this means that there is a broad approach to allowing people from the Eastern Orthodox "Majority", the Eastern Orthodox "Traditionalists", and the Oriental Orthodox "Non-Chalcedonians" to post on topics relating to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #127 on: March 14, 2013, 08:05:57 PM »

No, I asked fellow perishoners for advice on the oils (and Lenten practice in general).
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« Reply #128 on: March 14, 2013, 08:08:01 PM »

No, I asked fellow perishoners for advice on the oils (and Lenten practice in general).


Good. So what is your problem?
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« Reply #129 on: March 14, 2013, 08:19:36 PM »

Foods cooked in oils taste better and the Fathers knew this, so oils were banned on fasting days. That is why we can eat olives, peanuts, corn, etc. All of these have oils that are taken from them for cooking, but whole, are not considered an oil.
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« Reply #130 on: March 14, 2013, 08:22:41 PM »

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

It's not always a direct correlation, but if you are struggling with lust and gluttony together, the two can play off one another. The enemy has strategies.
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« Reply #131 on: March 14, 2013, 08:26:21 PM »

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.i
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

The pasta might prepare you for a grueling bicycle race, but lust? Unless you have a weird food fetish.....?

Seriously, a good post. We view crab, lobster, etc... as delicacies today. Were they detested or viewed negatively by Mediterranean peoples back in an earlier time?

I don't mean to sound rude, but, please, do not overlook the patristic teaching which comes from their experience in fighting all the passions. You may not struggle against one passion, but that does not mean that a convergence between passions is silly. The belly is the seat of carnal desires--food, sleep, sex. If you try to use your own logic and limited experience (not that you're inexperienced as a person, but you are but one man), you will not understand it as the Fathers and you may miss a valuable teaching for your own edification.
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« Reply #132 on: March 15, 2013, 01:07:31 AM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.
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« Reply #133 on: March 15, 2013, 03:56:23 PM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.
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« Reply #134 on: March 15, 2013, 04:03:28 PM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did.  He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate.  It's not that much of a stretch.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 04:03:56 PM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #135 on: March 15, 2013, 04:08:46 PM »

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.i
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

The pasta might prepare you for a grueling bicycle race, but lust? Unless you have a weird food fetish.....?

That fetish has a name and it's called Sploshing.

Don't ask. Tongue
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« Reply #136 on: March 15, 2013, 04:13:43 PM »

It will be fine. I did the nativity fast as well before last christmas and most of the time it went well. Lost some pounds, prayed a lot and got a lot better insight of the scriptures than before.

I am sure The Great Lent will be a time of more learning, more reading and more insight (hopefully) + even better knowledge of the scriptures.

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« Reply #137 on: March 15, 2013, 04:14:46 PM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did.  He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate.  It's not that much of a stretch.
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« Reply #138 on: March 15, 2013, 05:27:01 PM »

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.
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« Reply #139 on: March 15, 2013, 06:28:04 PM »

No, I asked fellow perishoners for advice on the oils (and Lenten practice in general).


In Faith Issues, things tend to get a bit more heated than on Convert Issues. Also, some of us evidently have not noticed that you are a catechumen and are treating you as if you had been Orthodox for a while. Please allow me to make amends and offer my words of advice and encouragement.

As a catechumen in ROCOR, ideally you should not be seeking guidance from any other source than your priest or ROCOR resources. I have worshiped in Bulgarian, Greek, Antiochian, ROCOR and OCA churches and they each differ a bit from each other. Some are more relaxed about these differences than others; however, at least in my experience, ROCOR does not fall in that number. The important thing to do is to blend into the congregation and to respect the instructions given to you by your instructor and/or priest. In the end, humility is the most difficult trait to acquire and it pays off to practice it even in minute details such as the use of oil during fasting.

As for fasting, I have not met a priest of any jurisdiction who does not advise newbies to take baby steps when it comes to fasting. Catechumens and newly illuminated members do tend to overdo it and then get disillusioned when they fail to attain perfection immediately!  Grin
Just remember that fasting goes along with (much) increased church attendance, an intensified prayer life, almsgiving, watching one's mouth and thoughts, and just being more loving towards others. Most of all, please believe me that even if you succeed in achieving even a fraction of the above, you will be so much better than before.
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« Reply #140 on: March 19, 2013, 10:04:05 AM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did.  He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate.  It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?
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« Reply #141 on: March 19, 2013, 11:04:45 AM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did.  He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate.  It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.
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« Reply #142 on: March 19, 2013, 11:12:47 AM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did.  He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate.  It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.

Well, that's a different issue.  I was just commenting on the theoretical possibility of the story, not its actual veracity.   police
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« Reply #143 on: March 19, 2013, 12:14:38 PM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did.  He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate.  It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.

I do.  That is similar to the way that I discovered that I had diabetes.  But of course, since you know everything about everything, perhaps my doctors are wrong and I don't have diabetes and was imagining the whole thing.
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« Reply #144 on: March 19, 2013, 12:41:37 PM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did.  He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate.  It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.

I do.  That is similar to the way that I discovered that I had diabetes.  But of course, since you know everything about everything, perhaps my doctors are wrong and I don't have diabetes and was imagining the whole thing.

You had no symptoms of diabetes and then slipped into a diabetic coma and nearly died after eating "high carb" (just like nearly every other American does all the time) for a few weeks?

If that is the case, I would highly recommend changing whoever was in charge of your medical care before a few extra servings of chickpeas nearly killed you.

Don't need to know everything to know which way the wind blows.
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« Reply #145 on: March 19, 2013, 12:55:42 PM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did.  He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate.  It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.

Well, that's a different issue.  I was just commenting on the theoretical possibility of the story, not its actual veracity.   police


No one [rhetoric alert] has no risk factors for type II diabetes nor symptoms then goes in to a diabetic coma after a few weeks of a moderate change in diet.

No one [rhetoric alert].

Given Maria's posts in the diet thread and threads like this:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45150.0.html

And watching someone who had arguably one of the most sudden and severe onsets of type II diabetes according to his physician and specialists he was referred to, color me suspicious.

He has a family history of diabetes and at his yearly check up complained of sluggishness, fatigue, and lowered libido. His doctor suggested it was age and to rest some more. He was an active runner and who was not overweight at the time.

Within the next nine months his weight starting going up without any change in diet and exercise. His libido decreased and he began to feel numbness in his feet which he chalked up to new running shoes.

At nine months after his check up, he had blood in his urine.

Had his physician taken seriously or had he presented more strongly the fatigue and loss of libido at his check up, he probably could have avoided the "sudden onset" of diabetes.

Good news, after a few years of getting nowhere with the typical dietary suggestions (he was nearly compliant with them his whole life), he went low carb for real and made a complete "recovery".
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 12:56:21 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #146 on: March 19, 2013, 01:51:43 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.

And I'll LOL.

I'll second the LOL.

Apparently with squid, bashing rather than "pressing the living thing to death," draining it of all ink, is swell though.
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« Reply #147 on: March 19, 2013, 01:58:58 PM »

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did.  He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate.  It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.

Well, that's a different issue.  I was just commenting on the theoretical possibility of the story, not its actual veracity.   police


No one [rhetoric alert] has no risk factors for type II diabetes nor symptoms then goes in to a diabetic coma after a few weeks of a moderate change in diet.

No one [rhetoric alert].

Given Maria's posts in the diet thread and threads like this:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45150.0.html

And watching someone who had arguably one of the most sudden and severe onsets of type II diabetes according to his physician and specialists he was referred to, color me suspicious.

He has a family history of diabetes and at his yearly check up complained of sluggishness, fatigue, and lowered libido. His doctor suggested it was age and to rest some more. He was an active runner and who was not overweight at the time.

Within the next nine months his weight starting going up without any change in diet and exercise. His libido decreased and he began to feel numbness in his feet which he chalked up to new running shoes.

At nine months after his check up, he had blood in his urine.

Had his physician taken seriously or had he presented more strongly the fatigue and loss of libido at his check up, he probably could have avoided the "sudden onset" of diabetes.

Good news, after a few years of getting nowhere with the typical dietary suggestions (he was nearly compliant with them his whole life), he went low carb for real and made a complete "recovery".

Fortunately, the phrase "diabetic coma" was my choice of words and a deliberate exaggeration at that.  In nowhere does Maria use that term.  She does, however, use the word "faint."

You are also assuming that the person in question was a) seeing a doctor regularly, b) taking care of himself to begin with and c) that, as noted, it was a "diabetic coma" (again my words, not hers) and not just an instance of a blood sugar crash.  We don't.  You're also assuming that the person in question was already eating a typical American high carb diet.  You're making all kinds of assumptions on this one story and yet you lambast others who do the same.

And to echo Punch (another thing I rarely do), I know two people who discovered their diabetes in much the same way. 
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« Reply #148 on: March 19, 2013, 02:12:21 PM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.

And I'll LOL.

I'll second the LOL.

Apparently with squid, bashing rather than "pressing the living thing to death," draining it of all ink, is swell though.

No need to bash or press squid to get rid of the ink. Squid, unlike cuttlefish, discharge most of their ink as they're being caught. Any remaining ink is discharged once they're caught. Cuttlefish are more devious, often saving their ink until they're landed - and then .... Many a time have I seen folks cop a faceful. Cuttlefish ink is stickier, thicker and blacker than squid ink. If it isn't sponged off hard surfaces (like the inside of boats) straight away, only scourer pads and heavy-duty detergents will get it off.  Tongue

OTOH, octopus needs to be bashed after it's caught, but it's nothing to do with the ink. A good belting tenderizes it.
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« Reply #149 on: March 19, 2013, 02:15:59 PM »

No need to bash or press squid to get rid of the ink. Squid, unlike cuttlefish, discharge most of their ink as they're being caught. Any remaining ink is discharged once they're caught. Cuttlefish are more devious, often saving their ink until they're landed - and then .... Many a time have I seen folks cop a faceful. Cuttlefish ink is stickier, thicker and blacker than squid ink. If it isn't sponged off hard surfaces (like the inside of boats) straight away, only scourer pads and heavy-duty detergents will get it off.  Tongue

OTOH, octopus needs to be bashed after it's caught, but it's nothing to do with the ink. A good belting tenderizes it.

Hah, thanks for the correction about the ink.  But either way, our little tentacled friends get bashed.  Seems so unLenteny. 
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« Reply #150 on: March 19, 2013, 04:57:18 PM »

No need to bash or press squid to get rid of the ink. Squid, unlike cuttlefish, discharge most of their ink as they're being caught. Any remaining ink is discharged once they're caught. Cuttlefish are more devious, often saving their ink until they're landed - and then .... Many a time have I seen folks cop a faceful. Cuttlefish ink is stickier, thicker and blacker than squid ink. If it isn't sponged off hard surfaces (like the inside of boats) straight away, only scourer pads and heavy-duty detergents will get it off.  Tongue

OTOH, octopus needs to be bashed after it's caught, but it's nothing to do with the ink. A good belting tenderizes it.

Hah, thanks for the correction about the ink.  But either way, our little tentacled friends get bashed.  Seems so unLenteny. 

And to this Slavic American it sounds disgusting. Yuck... No wonder we're OK with beer.
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« Reply #151 on: March 19, 2013, 05:04:28 PM »

We love squid ink.  Yum!
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« Reply #152 on: March 19, 2013, 06:01:55 PM »

Ah, hot sauce, makes Lenten meals much better.
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« Reply #153 on: March 19, 2013, 06:48:29 PM »

We love squid ink.  Yum!

You can buy or obtain squid ink?

How do you use it?
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« Reply #154 on: March 19, 2013, 06:50:51 PM »

Ah, hot sauce, makes Lenten meals much better.

I like mashed avocados over my green salad.

Applesauce spread on warm toast is a good substitute for butter or olive oil.
Sometimes, I spread almond butter over the applesauce.
My husband did not even notice the difference. He thought it was butter.

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« Reply #155 on: March 19, 2013, 06:54:21 PM »

We love squid ink.  Yum!

You can buy or obtain squid ink?

How do you use it?

http://panlasangpinoy.com/2010/05/18/adobong-pusit-squid-recipe/

I don't know here in North America, but back home my mom can just buy the squid with ink from the market.  Maybe in Asian grocery stores?
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« Reply #156 on: March 19, 2013, 06:56:28 PM »

We love squid ink.  Yum!

You can buy or obtain squid ink?

How do you use it?

How to Harvest Squid Ink

10 things you should know about squid ink pasta
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« Reply #157 on: March 23, 2013, 12:46:01 AM »

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok Roll Eyes

Its not confusing at all.  grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil.  That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection.  Thus they are both resurrectional foods.   

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.

And I'll LOL.

I'll second the LOL.

Apparently with squid, bashing rather than "pressing the living thing to death," draining it of all ink, is swell though.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."   When there is an anaphora offered, there is olive oil allowed, when it is not, olive oil is not.  Blame St. Hippolytus who was the first (in extant writings) to make the equation.  The blood of the fruit of the vine and the blood of the fruit of the (olive) tree is appropriate for Saturdays and Sundays even in Great Lent.  If one wants to argue for their usage in the midweek, be my guest.  I have already thought of three, and would not mind if the praxis changed.  But if you wish to diminish my explanation of the current "strict" received practice and its (at least equal) legitimacy as to all the "possibilities," you are making a mistake.   
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« Reply #158 on: March 23, 2013, 05:12:09 AM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

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« Reply #159 on: March 23, 2013, 11:44:11 AM »


You had no symptoms of diabetes and then slipped into a diabetic coma and nearly died after eating "high carb" (just like nearly every other American does all the time) for a few weeks?

If that is the case, I would highly recommend changing whoever was in charge of your medical care before a few extra servings of chickpeas nearly killed you.

Don't need to know everything to know which way the wind blows.

Since, unlike you, I don't know everything, I did not recognize the symptoms of the onset of diabetes.  I also do not live in the doctor's office, so there would be no way that he would know enough about my condition to warn me.  And “a few extra servings of chickpeas” is a particularly stupid statement on your part (and a perfect indication of your arrogant ignorance) since I do not eat chickpeas.  I am pretty much a carnivore.  During fasting periods, I used to eat a diet that very high in carbohydrates (mostly bread and potatoes).  I get sick of salads about day three of a fast, but there is almost no way that a potato can be fixed that I don’t like.  Potato pancakes, mashed potatoes, garlic potatoes, red potatoes, Yukon Gold potatoes, potato soup, potato and leek soup, mashed potatoes with sauerkraut, etc.  I also like fruits, particularly citrus and bananas.  Unfortunately, it caught up with me and I came very close to passing out at work. 

I have had high blood pressure since I was 17 years old (and have been hospitalized with blood pressure in ranges of 220/116, and more than once), and the blood tests taken when I was in the hospital showed no indication of Type II diabetes (of course, I suppose none of the doctors or emergency room workers are nearly as smart and competent as you, so they probably repeatedly messed up my blood work over a period of 30 years, several different localities, and more than one hospital in some localities).  But one day, about three years ago, during the Nativity Fast that I was trying to strictly keep due to the wishes of my new priest, and after a relatively long period without blood pressure problems, I nearly passed out at work.  I had difficulty keeping awake, became disoriented, and was taken to the plant first aid room.  My blood pressure was normal (for me), and on a hunch, our EMT took my blood sugar expecting it to be low.  It was in the high 300’s.  Pills did not work, and I have been on insulin since about six months after that.  I have trouble keeping my numbers below 200 even with the insulin.  According to the doctor (probably an idiot compared to you), my pancreas pretty much decided to stop working as it should, and probably had for a while.  I probably did not notice it before since I usually eat a lot of meat and not as many potatoes, and did not recognize the symptoms during the previous fasts because I used to not go out of my way to keep them.  This time I had gone most of the fast with no meat or eggs and lots of potatoes and fruit.  But I guess things like that do not happen in Orthonorm World.
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« Reply #160 on: March 23, 2013, 02:52:27 PM »


You had no symptoms of diabetes and then slipped into a diabetic coma and nearly died after eating "high carb" (just like nearly every other American does all the time) for a few weeks?

If that is the case, I would highly recommend changing whoever was in charge of your medical care before a few extra servings of chickpeas nearly killed you.

Don't need to know everything to know which way the wind blows.

Since, unlike you, I don't know everything, I did not recognize the symptoms of the onset of diabetes.  I also do not live in the doctor's office, so there would be no way that he would know enough about my condition to warn me.  And “a few extra servings of chickpeas” is a particularly stupid statement on your part (and a perfect indication of your arrogant ignorance) since I do not eat chickpeas.  I am pretty much a carnivore.  During fasting periods, I used to eat a diet that very high in carbohydrates (mostly bread and potatoes).  I get sick of salads about day three of a fast, but there is almost no way that a potato can be fixed that I don’t like.  Potato pancakes, mashed potatoes, garlic potatoes, red potatoes, Yukon Gold potatoes, potato soup, potato and leek soup, mashed potatoes with sauerkraut, etc.  I also like fruits, particularly citrus and bananas.  Unfortunately, it caught up with me and I came very close to passing out at work. 

I have had high blood pressure since I was 17 years old (and have been hospitalized with blood pressure in ranges of 220/116, and more than once), and the blood tests taken when I was in the hospital showed no indication of Type II diabetes (of course, I suppose none of the doctors or emergency room workers are nearly as smart and competent as you, so they probably repeatedly messed up my blood work over a period of 30 years, several different localities, and more than one hospital in some localities).  But one day, about three years ago, during the Nativity Fast that I was trying to strictly keep due to the wishes of my new priest, and after a relatively long period without blood pressure problems, I nearly passed out at work.  I had difficulty keeping awake, became disoriented, and was taken to the plant first aid room.  My blood pressure was normal (for me), and on a hunch, our EMT took my blood sugar expecting it to be low.  It was in the high 300’s.  Pills did not work, and I have been on insulin since about six months after that.  I have trouble keeping my numbers below 200 even with the insulin.  According to the doctor (probably an idiot compared to you), my pancreas pretty much decided to stop working as it should, and probably had for a while.  I probably did not notice it before since I usually eat a lot of meat and not as many potatoes, and did not recognize the symptoms during the previous fasts because I used to not go out of my way to keep them.  This time I had gone most of the fast with no meat or eggs and lots of potatoes and fruit.  But I guess things like that do not happen in Orthonorm World.


Sounds like a long way of affirming much of what I said. Thanks.

Sorry about your condition.
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« Reply #161 on: March 23, 2013, 03:51:02 PM »

Ah, hot sauce, makes Lenten meals much better.
I go for the bottle of Sriracha myself.
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« Reply #162 on: March 23, 2013, 11:48:30 PM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.



except that we know that the oldest manuscripts have oil, not mercy, a point demonstrated by numerous writers including Dimitrievsky, Uspensky and Meyendorff.  The Venetian text used for the Nikonian Slavonic texts was a mass-published divergence from the older texts with its eleion.  It is what we have today due to the prevailing of the Venetian texts in both Greek and corresponding Slavonic translations, but we know it is a divergence from the earlier texts.    

MK was here but not that Meyendorff
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« Reply #163 on: March 24, 2013, 12:18:19 AM »


You had no symptoms of diabetes and then slipped into a diabetic coma and nearly died after eating "high carb" (just like nearly every other American does all the time) for a few weeks?

If that is the case, I would highly recommend changing whoever was in charge of your medical care before a few extra servings of chickpeas nearly killed you.

Don't need to know everything to know which way the wind blows.

Since, unlike you, I don't know everything, I did not recognize the symptoms of the onset of diabetes.  I also do not live in the doctor's office, so there would be no way that he would know enough about my condition to warn me.  And “a few extra servings of chickpeas” is a particularly stupid statement on your part (and a perfect indication of your arrogant ignorance) since I do not eat chickpeas.  I am pretty much a carnivore.  During fasting periods, I used to eat a diet that very high in carbohydrates (mostly bread and potatoes).  I get sick of salads about day three of a fast, but there is almost no way that a potato can be fixed that I don’t like.  Potato pancakes, mashed potatoes, garlic potatoes, red potatoes, Yukon Gold potatoes, potato soup, potato and leek soup, mashed potatoes with sauerkraut, etc.  I also like fruits, particularly citrus and bananas.  Unfortunately, it caught up with me and I came very close to passing out at work. 

I have had high blood pressure since I was 17 years old (and have been hospitalized with blood pressure in ranges of 220/116, and more than once), and the blood tests taken when I was in the hospital showed no indication of Type II diabetes (of course, I suppose none of the doctors or emergency room workers are nearly as smart and competent as you, so they probably repeatedly messed up my blood work over a period of 30 years, several different localities, and more than one hospital in some localities).  But one day, about three years ago, during the Nativity Fast that I was trying to strictly keep due to the wishes of my new priest, and after a relatively long period without blood pressure problems, I nearly passed out at work.  I had difficulty keeping awake, became disoriented, and was taken to the plant first aid room.  My blood pressure was normal (for me), and on a hunch, our EMT took my blood sugar expecting it to be low.  It was in the high 300’s.  Pills did not work, and I have been on insulin since about six months after that.  I have trouble keeping my numbers below 200 even with the insulin.  According to the doctor (probably an idiot compared to you), my pancreas pretty much decided to stop working as it should, and probably had for a while.  I probably did not notice it before since I usually eat a lot of meat and not as many potatoes, and did not recognize the symptoms during the previous fasts because I used to not go out of my way to keep them.  This time I had gone most of the fast with no meat or eggs and lots of potatoes and fruit.  But I guess things like that do not happen in Orthonorm World.


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I am praying for you. Let us pray for each other.
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« Reply #164 on: March 24, 2013, 03:20:06 AM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.



except that we know that the oldest manuscripts have oil, not mercy, a point demonstrated by numerous writers including Dimitrievsky, Uspensky and Fr. Meyendorff.  The Venetian text used for the Nikonian Slavonic texts was a mass-published divergence from the older texts with its eleion.  It is what we have today due to the prevailing of the Venetian texts in both Greek and corresponding Slavonic translations, but we know it is a divergence from the earlier texts.   

MK was here

Scripturally, oil would make no sense. These verses are the basis of the wording of the opening of the Anaphora:

Hosea 6:6 :

 διότι ἔλεος θέλω καὶ οὐ θυσίαν καὶ ἐπίγνωσιν Θεοῦ ἢ ὁλοκαυτώματα.

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Matthew 9:13 :

πορευθέντες δὲ μάθετε τί ἐστιν ἔλεον θέλω καὶ οὐ θυσίαν, οὐ γὰρ ἦλθον καλέσαι δικαίους, ἀλλὰ ἁμαρτωλοὺς εἰς μετάνοιαν..

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

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« Reply #165 on: March 24, 2013, 11:24:07 AM »

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

Yes!  Legumes, lentils, whole wheat carbs, vegetables, and little fruit (not a lot) is usually a very good balanced diet, with good protein, the moderate carbs, and little fat.  If people can maintain this type of diet in fasting, people will have amazing health benefits.

Many times in the Coptic Church people make the mistake of also taking too much carbs.  We have a lot of potato, rice, and macaroni diets in the fast.  But fava beans and lentils are also big in the Coptic Church as well.  In Coptic monasteries, it is fava beans and lentils that are huge in diets, which I believe would lead to the health benefits seen in many of them.  HG Bishop Makarius, a general bishop in the Coptic Church who serves the Eritreans in the US, only eats a diet of lentils, even on non-fasting days.  He does have type 1 diabetes, but his health I can imagine is great.
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« Reply #166 on: March 24, 2013, 12:48:42 PM »

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

Yes!  Legumes, lentils, whole wheat carbs, vegetables, and little fruit (not a lot) is usually a very good balanced diet, with good protein, the moderate carbs, and little fat.  If people can maintain this type of diet in fasting, people will have amazing health benefits.

Many times in the Coptic Church people make the mistake of also taking too much carbs.  We have a lot of potato, rice, and macaroni diets in the fast.  But fava beans and lentils are also big in the Coptic Church as well.  In Coptic monasteries, it is fava beans and lentils that are huge in diets, which I believe would lead to the health benefits seen in many of them.  HG Bishop Makarius, a general bishop in the Coptic Church who serves the Eritreans in the US, only eats a diet of lentils, even on non-fasting days.  He does have type 1 diabetes, but his health I can imagine is great.

lentils mmm lets just say, I totally understand why that dish was used as the price for the rights of the firstborn in that drama between the biblical twins. Smiley
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« Reply #167 on: March 24, 2013, 01:47:40 PM »

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

Yes!  Legumes, lentils, whole wheat carbs, vegetables, and little fruit (not a lot) is usually a very good balanced diet, with good protein, the moderate carbs, and little fat.  If people can maintain this type of diet in fasting, people will have amazing health benefits.

Many times in the Coptic Church people make the mistake of also taking too much carbs.  We have a lot of potato, rice, and macaroni diets in the fast.  But fava beans and lentils are also big in the Coptic Church as well.  In Coptic monasteries, it is fava beans and lentils that are huge in diets, which I believe would lead to the health benefits seen in many of them.  HG Bishop Makarius, a general bishop in the Coptic Church who serves the Eritreans in the US, only eats a diet of lentils, even on non-fasting days.  He does have type 1 diabetes, but his health I can imagine is great.

lentils mmm lets just say, I totally understand why that dish was used as the price for the rights of the firstborn in that drama between the biblical twins. Smiley
That also explains why one of King David's greatest warriors protected a field of them so vigorously  Wink

I think you've inspired me to do a Bible study on lentils...lol!
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« Reply #168 on: March 24, 2013, 02:55:27 PM »

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

Yes!  Legumes, lentils, whole wheat carbs, vegetables, and little fruit (not a lot) is usually a very good balanced diet, with good protein, the moderate carbs, and little fat.  If people can maintain this type of diet in fasting, people will have amazing health benefits.

Many times in the Coptic Church people make the mistake of also taking too much carbs.  We have a lot of potato, rice, and macaroni diets in the fast.  But fava beans and lentils are also big in the Coptic Church as well.  In Coptic monasteries, it is fava beans and lentils that are huge in diets, which I believe would lead to the health benefits seen in many of them.  HG Bishop Makarius, a general bishop in the Coptic Church who serves the Eritreans in the US, only eats a diet of lentils, even on non-fasting days.  He does have type 1 diabetes, but his health I can imagine is great.

lentils mmm lets just say, I totally understand why that dish was used as the price for the rights of the firstborn in that drama between the biblical twins. Smiley
That also explains why one of King David's greatest warriors protected a field of them so vigorously  Wink

I think you've inspired me to do a Bible study on lentils...lol!

 or over them Smiley a splendid idea lol
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« Reply #169 on: March 25, 2013, 09:07:22 PM »

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

Yes!  Legumes, lentils, whole wheat carbs, vegetables, and little fruit (not a lot) is usually a very good balanced diet, with good protein, the moderate carbs, and little fat.  If people can maintain this type of diet in fasting, people will have amazing health benefits.

Many times in the Coptic Church people make the mistake of also taking too much carbs.  We have a lot of potato, rice, and macaroni diets in the fast.  But fava beans and lentils are also big in the Coptic Church as well.  In Coptic monasteries, it is fava beans and lentils that are huge in diets, which I believe would lead to the health benefits seen in many of them.  HG Bishop Makarius, a general bishop in the Coptic Church who serves the Eritreans in the US, only eats a diet of lentils, even on non-fasting days.  He does have type 1 diabetes, but his health I can imagine is great.

lentils mmm lets just say, I totally understand why that dish was used as the price for the rights of the firstborn in that drama between the biblical twins. Smiley
That also explains why one of King David's greatest warriors protected a field of them so vigorously  Wink

I think you've inspired me to do a Bible study on lentils...lol!

 or over them Smiley a splendid idea lol

I'll probably do both  Grin
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« Reply #170 on: March 26, 2013, 07:21:32 AM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.



You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James
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« Reply #171 on: March 26, 2013, 07:23:54 AM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.
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« Reply #172 on: March 26, 2013, 07:52:50 AM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.



« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 07:53:25 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #173 on: March 26, 2013, 11:54:33 PM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.



except that we know that the oldest manuscripts have oil, not mercy, a point demonstrated by numerous writers including Dimitrievsky, Uspensky and Meyendorff.  The Venetian text used for the Nikonian Slavonic texts was a mass-published divergence from the older texts with its eleion.  It is what we have today due to the prevailing of the Venetian texts in both Greek and corresponding Slavonic translations, but we know it is a divergence from the earlier texts.    

MK was here but not that Meyendorff

Hi Mike.  Actually, I was referring to Paul Meyendorff (not a priest, and therefore Fr. should not be in there), but as I revisited the text (Russia, Ritual, and Reform), I realized it was Fr. Taft I was thinking of, not Meyendorff.  

MK was here
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« Reply #174 on: March 27, 2013, 12:14:43 AM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.





Right, but quoting translations of modern languages that were dependent on the Venetian texts really doesn't help your case.  However, I will say that I agree that "mercy" fits quite well there, is Scripturally sound, and is what we use today.  Are you satisfied with this or do you still feel the need to argue?       
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« Reply #175 on: March 27, 2013, 12:19:09 AM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.





Right, but quoting translations of modern languages that were dependent on the Venetian texts really doesn't help your case.  However, I will say that I agree that "mercy" fits quite well there, is Scripturally sound, and is what we use today.  Are you satisfied with this or do you still feel the need to argue?       

That leaves the Slavonic version, which is one of the oldest versions outside the original Greek. The Georgian version would also be instructive. The latter, if not also the former, would not have been dependent on the Venetian texts.  angel
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« Reply #176 on: March 27, 2013, 12:22:59 AM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.





Right, but quoting translations of modern languages that were dependent on the Venetian texts really doesn't help your case.  However, I will say that I agree that "mercy" fits quite well there, is Scripturally sound, and is what we use today.  Are you satisfied with this or do you still feel the need to argue?       

That leaves the Slavonic version, which is one of the oldest versions outside the original Greek. The Georgian version would also be instructive. The latter, if not also the former, would not have been dependent on the Venetian texts.  angel

 Roll Eyes
The Venetian texts are solely responsible for the received Slavonic texts of the Nikonian reforms, and also the preceding revisions of the Ukrainian reformed texts. 
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« Reply #177 on: March 27, 2013, 12:24:23 AM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.





Right, but quoting translations of modern languages that were dependent on the Venetian texts really doesn't help your case.  However, I will say that I agree that "mercy" fits quite well there, is Scripturally sound, and is what we use today.  Are you satisfied with this or do you still feel the need to argue?       

That leaves the Slavonic version, which is one of the oldest versions outside the original Greek. The Georgian version would also be instructive. The latter, if not also the former, would not have been dependent on the Venetian texts.  angel

 Roll Eyes
The Venetian texts are solely responsible for the received Slavonic texts of the Nikonian reforms, and also the preceding revisions of the Ukrainian reformed texts. 

Then that leaves the Georgian text.
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« Reply #178 on: March 27, 2013, 05:37:59 AM »

Hi Mike.  Actually, I was referring to Paul Meyendorff (not a priest, and therefore Fr. should not be in there), but as I revisited the text (Russia, Ritual, and Reform), I realized it was Fr. Taft I was thinking of, not Meyendorff. 

MK was here

My bad.
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« Reply #179 on: March 27, 2013, 10:58:35 PM »

Quote
Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.





Right, but quoting translations of modern languages that were dependent on the Venetian texts really doesn't help your case.  However, I will say that I agree that "mercy" fits quite well there, is Scripturally sound, and is what we use today.  Are you satisfied with this or do you still feel the need to argue?       

That leaves the Slavonic version, which is one of the oldest versions outside the original Greek. The Georgian version would also be instructive. The latter, if not also the former, would not have been dependent on the Venetian texts.  angel

 Roll Eyes
The Venetian texts are solely responsible for the received Slavonic texts of the Nikonian reforms, and also the preceding revisions of the Ukrainian reformed texts. 

Then that leaves the Georgian text.

Anthony Coniaris says:
Quote
The excellent book "Orthodox Worship" describes the meaning of the word mercy as follows:

"The word mercy in English is the translation of the Greek word eleos. This word has the same ultimate root as the old Greek word for oil, or more precisely, olive oil; a substance which was used extensively as a soothing agent for bruises and minor wounds. The oil was poured onto the wound and gently massaged in, thus soothing, comforting and making whole the injured part. The Hebrew word which is also translated as eleos and mercy is hesed, and means steadfast love. The Greek words for 'Lord, have mercy,' are 'Kyrie, eleison'  that is to say, 'Lord, soothe me, comfort me, take away my pain, show me your steadfast love.' Thus mercy does not refer so much to justice or acquittal  a very Western interpretation  but to the infinite loving-kindness of God, and his compassion for his suffering children! It is in this sense that we pray 'Lord, have mercy,' with great frequency throughout the Divine Liturgy."*
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7124
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