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Author Topic: Jurisdictional disputes arose between Antioch and Jerusalem Patriarchates  (Read 5240 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 09, 2013, 06:05:05 PM »

ATHENS. The Greek church news agencies "Amen" and "Romfeya" report that the Patriarchate of Antioch protested the March 4, 2013 election by the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Jerusalem of Archimandrite Makarios to be Archbishop Qatar. The Antiochian Orthodox Church considers Qatar along with other Arab Gulf states within its jurisdiction...
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2013, 06:13:53 PM »

ATHENS. The Greek church news agencies "Amen" and "Romfeya" report that the Patriarchate of Antioch protested the March 4, 2013 election by the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Jerusalem of Archimandrite Makarios to be Archbishop Qatar. The Antiochian Orthodox Church considers Qatar along with other Arab Gulf states within its jurisdiction...

Wow!  Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory.  Oh wait . . . another Patriarch that has no country wants to be head of all the Orthodox Churches.  Wake me up when something relevant happens.

quoting tags editted - MK
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2013, 06:23:09 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2013, 06:57:53 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Interesting.  What does the Phanar have to say about Qatar? (It's Antioch's btw).  Should be interesting conversation if they have that "Ancient Patriarchates and Cyprus" thing again.
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2013, 06:59:58 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Italy.
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2013, 07:13:47 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory.  

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?
Italy.
Oh.  In that case

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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2013, 07:20:20 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory.  

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?
Italy.
Oh.  In that case



Not a Patriarch. But you reminded me of him:



I being a Patriarch is not required, he also can be included:



And something more historical:



OK, those are all I can recall.
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2013, 07:41:02 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory.  

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?
Italy.
Oh.  In that case



Not a Patriarch. But you reminded me of him:

I wasn't sure regent counted.

I being a Patriarch is not required, he also can be included:



And something more historical:



OK, those are all I can recall.
For places like Crete a century ago (and still for the Monastic Republic of Mt. Athos):
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2013, 10:02:13 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Interesting.  What does the Phanar have to say about Qatar? (It's Antioch's btw).  Should be interesting conversation if they have that "Ancient Patriarchates and Cyprus" thing again.

Stop muckraking, Isa.
As to Antioch: I am well aware of the "Asia and All the East" part of the description of its territory, but wonder about the definition of Asia. At one time "Asia" meant only Asia Minor, at others more what we think of as the Asian continent. I suspect they will be arguing that now.
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2013, 10:23:44 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Interesting.  What does the Phanar have to say about Qatar? (It's Antioch's btw).  Should be interesting conversation if they have that "Ancient Patriarchates and Cyprus" thing again.

Stop muckraking, Isa.
As to Antioch: I am well aware of the "Asia and All the East" part of the description of its territory, but wonder about the definition of Asia. At one time "Asia" meant only Asia Minor, at others more what we think of as the Asian continent. I suspect they will be arguing that now.
Asia? What's Asia have to do with it, except that Antioch's jurisdiction (and Jerusalem's, and Constantinople's in part, as well as part of Moscow) lays in it?

The title is "Patriarch of Antioch, the Great City of God, of Syria, Lebanon, Arabia, Cilicia, Mesopotamia and all the East; Father of Fathers, Shepherd of Shepherds, Master of Masters, and Thirteenth of the Holy Apostles, our Father and Chief Shepherd."  That of Jerusalem is "Patriarch of the Holy City of Jerusalem and all Palestine, Syria, beyond the Jordan River, Cana of Galilee, and Holy Zion."

Antioch has a history of solicitude over the area.  Jerusalem does not.
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2013, 11:42:03 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Interesting.  What does the Phanar have to say about Qatar? (It's Antioch's btw).  Should be interesting conversation if they have that "Ancient Patriarchates and Cyprus" thing again.

Stop muckraking, Isa.
As to Antioch: I am well aware of the "Asia and All the East" part of the description of its territory, but wonder about the definition of Asia. At one time "Asia" meant only Asia Minor, at others more what we think of as the Asian continent. I suspect they will be arguing that now.

One of the Antiochian Patriarch's title is Patriarch of Arabia and All the East. The Gulf region is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Archdiocese of Baghdad, Kuwait, and the Dependencies. This archdiocese is also known as the Gulf Orthodox Church. So, in terms of jurisdiction, it is under the omophorion of the Antiochian Church. However, most Qatari Orthodox Christians are expiates from both Palestine/Israel and Lebanon. The Russians in the Gulf have their own churches under ROCOR.
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 12:03:20 AM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Interesting.  What does the Phanar have to say about Qatar? (It's Antioch's btw).  Should be interesting conversation if they have that "Ancient Patriarchates and Cyprus" thing again.

Stop muckraking, Isa.
As to Antioch: I am well aware of the "Asia and All the East" part of the description of its territory, but wonder about the definition of Asia. At one time "Asia" meant only Asia Minor, at others more what we think of as the Asian continent. I suspect they will be arguing that now.

One of the Antiochian Patriarch's title is Patriarch of Arabia and All the East. The Gulf region is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Archdiocese of Baghdad, Kuwait, and the Dependencies. This archdiocese is also known as the Gulf Orthodox Church. So, in terms of jurisdiction, it is under the omophorion of the Antiochian Church. However, most Qatari Orthodox Christians are expiates from both Palestine/Israel and Lebanon. The Russians in the Gulf have their own churches under ROCOR.

I am not arguing; I am asking. Your input (thankfully without rancor) I appreciate.
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 12:26:39 AM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.

Nomally Orthodox Countries?  Let's see, Russia comes to mind.  Bulgaria.  Serbia.  Romania.  Ukraine. 

Contantinople - Turkish slavery since 1453.  Jerusalem in slavery to the Turks, Latins, Zionists and whomever else since, what, 1187 or so?  I don't know about Antioch and Alexandria, but I don't think they have been Orthodox for quite some time.

So, avoiding the usual technicalities and maps and other retardation that these threads devolve into, I just thought it humorous that two Churches who have been slaves for centuries are arguing about who "controls" what territory when both exist at the pleasure of their heathen masters.  And one may not be around that much longer if the wrong people win in Syria.  They already are not in Antioch anymore, and Damascus is not looking too good.

Sorry. The mixture of politics and religion does not set well with me.  I am probably out of line.
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 12:54:51 AM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
Nomally Orthodox Countries?  Let's see, Russia comes to mind.  Bulgaria.  Serbia.  Romania.  Ukraine.
I think he was talking about states run Churches.  Not states with a state church, nor with an Orthodox majority.
Contantinople - Turkish slavery since 1453.  Jerusalem in slavery to the Turks, Latins, Zionists and whomever else since, what, 1187 or so?  I don't know about Antioch and Alexandria, but I don't think they have been Orthodox for quite some time.

So, avoiding the usual technicalities and maps and other retardation that these threads devolve into, I just thought it humorous that two Churches who have been slaves for centuries are arguing about who "controls" what territory when both exist at the pleasure of their heathen masters.  And one may not be around that much longer if the wrong people win in Syria.  They already are not in Antioch anymore, and Damascus is not looking too good.

Sorry. The mixture of politics and religion does not set well with me.  I am probably out of line.
Not in Antioch anymore?  News to me.  I was there twenty years ago and communed in the Patriarchal Cathedral.  Rarely have I ever seen an Orthodox Church with so many children.  But you are right, that Damascus isn't looking good. But it is not the first time that has happened. They do have a problem with persecution, but at least they are not aborting their next generation.

I might as well point out, since it might otherwise come up: your list of slave masters in Jerusalem, you forgot the Phanariots/Greeks (yuunaan).

It would be odd if Jerusalem was interested in spreading the Gospel in Qatar (and there are actual opportunities to do so, oddly enough, although Qatar shares the same sect of fundamentalism as Saudi Arabia), given what it's up to in Jerusalem with the natives.  Antioch has been working on outreach to the Turks, why not more so fellow Arabs?
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2013, 01:48:45 AM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
Nomally Orthodox Countries?  Let's see, Russia comes to mind.  Bulgaria.  Serbia.  Romania.  Ukraine.
I think he was talking about states run Churches.  Not states with a state church, nor with an Orthodox majority.
Contantinople - Turkish slavery since 1453.  Jerusalem in slavery to the Turks, Latins, Zionists and whomever else since, what, 1187 or so?  I don't know about Antioch and Alexandria, but I don't think they have been Orthodox for quite some time.

So, avoiding the usual technicalities and maps and other retardation that these threads devolve into, I just thought it humorous that two Churches who have been slaves for centuries are arguing about who "controls" what territory when both exist at the pleasure of their heathen masters.  And one may not be around that much longer if the wrong people win in Syria.  They already are not in Antioch anymore, and Damascus is not looking too good.

Sorry. The mixture of politics and religion does not set well with me.  I am probably out of line.
Not in Antioch anymore?  News to me.  I was there twenty years ago and communed in the Patriarchal Cathedral.  Rarely have I ever seen an Orthodox Church with so many children.  But you are right, that Damascus isn't looking good. But it is not the first time that has happened. They do have a problem with persecution, but at least they are not aborting their next generation.

I might as well point out, since it might otherwise come up: your list of slave masters in Jerusalem, you forgot the Phanariots/Greeks (yuunaan).

It would be odd if Jerusalem was interested in spreading the Gospel in Qatar (and there are actual opportunities to do so, oddly enough, although Qatar shares the same sect of fundamentalism as Saudi Arabia), given what it's up to in Jerusalem with the natives.  Antioch has been working on outreach to the Turks, why not more so fellow Arabs?

Although we shouldn't be afraid of martyrdom, outwardly converting Wahhabiyyah could legally get you martyred.
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2013, 04:54:12 AM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Interesting.  What does the Phanar have to say about Qatar? (It's Antioch's btw).  Should be interesting conversation if they have that "Ancient Patriarchates and Cyprus" thing again.

Stop muckraking, Isa.
As to Antioch: I am well aware of the "Asia and All the East" part of the description of its territory, but wonder about the definition of Asia. At one time "Asia" meant only Asia Minor, at others more what we think of as the Asian continent. I suspect they will be arguing that now.

One of the Antiochian Patriarch's title is Patriarch of Arabia and All the East. The Gulf region is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Archdiocese of Baghdad, Kuwait, and the Dependencies. This archdiocese is also known as the Gulf Orthodox Church. So, in terms of jurisdiction, it is under the omophorion of the Antiochian Church. However, most Qatari Orthodox Christians are expiates from both Palestine/Israel and Lebanon. The Russians in the Gulf have their own churches under ROCOR.

The Russian parishes in the Gulf are not under ROCOR (check their website, none are listed), they are under the Archdiocese of Baghdad. The Russian, Romania, and Georgian parishes in the Gulf all commemorate Metropolitan Constantine. This has been discussed before in other threads; the Gulf governments have been building churches for various ethnics working in their countries. So a group says they need a church, a church is built, a priest is sent, but they all (except Jerusalem) recognize the territory is ecclesiastically Antioch.
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 08:13:05 AM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Interesting.  What does the Phanar have to say about Qatar? (It's Antioch's btw).  Should be interesting conversation if they have that "Ancient Patriarchates and Cyprus" thing again.

Stop muckraking, Isa.
As to Antioch: I am well aware of the "Asia and All the East" part of the description of its territory, but wonder about the definition of Asia. At one time "Asia" meant only Asia Minor, at others more what we think of as the Asian continent. I suspect they will be arguing that now.

One of the Antiochian Patriarch's title is Patriarch of Arabia and All the East. The Gulf region is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Archdiocese of Baghdad, Kuwait, and the Dependencies. This archdiocese is also known as the Gulf Orthodox Church. So, in terms of jurisdiction, it is under the omophorion of the Antiochian Church. However, most Qatari Orthodox Christians are expiates from both Palestine/Israel and Lebanon. The Russians in the Gulf have their own churches under ROCOR.

The Russian parishes in the Gulf are not under ROCOR (check their website, none are listed), they are under the Archdiocese of Baghdad. The Russian, Romania, and Georgian parishes in the Gulf all commemorate Metropolitan Constantine. This has been discussed before in other threads; the Gulf governments have been building churches for various ethnics working in their countries. So a group says they need a church, a church is built, a priest is sent, but they all (except Jerusalem) recognize the territory is ecclesiastically Antioch.

And, IMO, these churches are ecclesiastically correct.
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2013, 09:32:33 AM »

Nomally Orthodox Countries?  Let's see, Russia comes to mind.  Bulgaria.  Serbia.  Romania.  Ukraine.
[/quote]

Country can't be Orthodox.
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2013, 10:13:27 AM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Interesting.  What does the Phanar have to say about Qatar? (It's Antioch's btw).  Should be interesting conversation if they have that "Ancient Patriarchates and Cyprus" thing again.

Stop muckraking, Isa.
As to Antioch: I am well aware of the "Asia and All the East" part of the description of its territory, but wonder about the definition of Asia. At one time "Asia" meant only Asia Minor, at others more what we think of as the Asian continent. I suspect they will be arguing that now.

One of the Antiochian Patriarch's title is Patriarch of Arabia and All the East. The Gulf region is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Archdiocese of Baghdad, Kuwait, and the Dependencies. This archdiocese is also known as the Gulf Orthodox Church. So, in terms of jurisdiction, it is under the omophorion of the Antiochian Church. However, most Qatari Orthodox Christians are expiates from both Palestine/Israel and Lebanon. The Russians in the Gulf have their own churches under ROCOR.

The Russian parishes in the Gulf are not under ROCOR (check their website, none are listed), they are under the Archdiocese of Baghdad. The Russian, Romania, and Georgian parishes in the Gulf all commemorate Metropolitan Constantine. This has been discussed before in other threads; the Gulf governments have been building churches for various ethnics working in their countries. So a group says they need a church, a church is built, a priest is sent, but they all (except Jerusalem) recognize the territory is ecclesiastically Antioch.
They can still be "under ROCOR" like the ones in Jerusalem.  Their they commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.  Same in Africa.  Sort of like "borrowed" clergy I guess.
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« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2013, 12:41:08 PM »

It is the ancient, nonsensical bickering among us as exemplified on this thread to which our Roman brothers point when presenting their arguments for a meaningful role for a "Primus" within an undivided church. Of course they have it wrong, as articulated at its worst by Vatican I. Sigh.....
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2013, 08:09:33 AM »

Something more: http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-patriarchate-of-antioch-protests.html
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2013, 03:56:12 PM »

While I would prefer the Patriarchate of Jerusalem over the Patriarchate of Antioch any day of the week, I do not see how the Patriarchate of Jerusalem can possibly have jurisdiction over Qatar...
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2013, 04:00:54 PM »

Quote
Lots of pictures
are we talking about countries ruled by bishops here?

if so Montenegro was ruled by  bishops for quite a long time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince-Bishopric_of_Montenegro
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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2013, 12:51:53 PM »

The Synod of Antioch met today and created a statement. I have only seen the Arabic at this point, but based on what we have seen from Patriarch John so far, I expect an English and Greek version to be issued soon.

Basically the statement reaffirms that Qatar is under the territory of Metropolitan Constantine of Baghdad, calls on Jerusalem to work together to show an united front in a difficult region, and ask Jerusalem to rectify this situation.
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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2013, 01:00:26 PM »

They even don't have a parish in Quatar.
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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2013, 01:11:22 PM »

They even don't have a parish in Quatar.

I would like to see the English translation of the statement before I go to much into, but the status of this parish is mentioned. I did not understand the Arabic in this section.

This is a much older issue that is being magnified by the recent Israeli wars. The boundaries defined by Trullo are being ignored by Jerusalem.
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« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2013, 02:05:10 PM »

The Synod of Antioch met today and created a statement. I have only seen the Arabic at this point, but based on what we have seen from Patriarch John so far, I expect an English and Greek version to be issued soon.

Basically the statement reaffirms that Qatar is under the territory of Metropolitan Constantine of Baghdad, calls on Jerusalem to work together to show an united front in a difficult region, and ask Jerusalem to rectify this situation.
Where did you see the Arabic?
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« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2013, 02:26:58 PM »

The Synod of Antioch met today and created a statement. I have only seen the Arabic at this point, but based on what we have seen from Patriarch John so far, I expect an English and Greek version to be issued soon.

Basically the statement reaffirms that Qatar is under the territory of Metropolitan Constantine of Baghdad, calls on Jerusalem to work together to show an united front in a difficult region, and ask Jerusalem to rectify this situation.
Where did you see the Arabic?

On the Patriarch's Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Antiochpatriarchate.org. The French was just posted in the same location. I am sure English will be arriving shortly.
Quote
Communiqué
du Saint Synode du Patriarcat grec-orthodoxe d'Antioche
Les membres du Saint Synode du Patriarcat grec-orthodoxe d'Antioche ont tenu une réunion en cette matinée du mercredi 13 mars 2013 au monastère patriarcal Notre Dame de BALAMAND sous la présidence de Sa Béatitude le Patriarche JEAN X, et ce afin d'étudier la situation qui résulte de l'élection du Révérend Archimandrite MACAIRE le lundi 4 mars 2013 par le Saint Synode du Patriarcat grec-orthodoxe de Jérusalem en qualité "d'archevêque du Qatar", élection qui contrevient aux canons du plérome de l'Eglise orthodoxe. A la suite des échanges et après l'approbation des membres du Saint Synode des pays de l'Eglise mère et de ceux de la diaspora, le communiqué suivant a été adopté et a été diffusé à tous les fidèles et communiqué à toutes les Eglises orthodoxes autocéphales.
Communiqué
Sur convocation de Sa Béatitude le Patriarche JEAN X, et dans le contexte des circonstances difficiles et des douleurs qui soufflent sur notre région et qui éprouvent nos enfants, les évêques des pays de l'Eglise Mère du saint siège d'Antioche se sont réunis, après avoir échangé avec leurs frères les évêques de la diaspora de la blessure causée par l'élection et l'ordination de l'Archimandrite MACAIRE en qualité "d'archevêque du Qatar" par le Patriarcat de Jérusalem. Sa Béatitude a passé en revue en début de réunion, les actions qu'il a pu entreprendre dès qu'il a pris connaissance de la nouvelle de l'élection, à travers les médias. Ainsi, et après avoir pris contact avec les membres du Saint Synode du Patriarcat d'Antioche, Sa Béatitude a fait parvenir, dans un premier temps, un message oral à Sa Béatitude le Patriarche de Jérusalem et à Sa Sainteté le Patriarche OEcuménique, qu'il a fait suivre d'une lettre écrite à leur attention dans laquelle il exprimait sa surprise par "la décision du Saint Synode de Jérusalem d'élever le père envoyé à la ville de Doha, à la dignité épiscopale en lui octroyant le titre "d'archevêque du Qatar", et ce sans considération du Patriarcat d'Antioche dans la juridiction géographique canonique de laquelle se trouve l'Etat du Qatar, considérant ainsi qu'il n'est pas permis d'ordonner un évêque dépendant d'une autre Eglise orthodoxe sur cette région, et en particulier en raison du fait que le Patriarcat d'Antioche dispose déjà d'un évêque canonique sur l'ensemble de la région du Golfe arabe, à savoir son Eminence le métropolite Constantin." Sa Béatitude a prié dans sa lettre les personnes concernées de revenir sur cette décision et de ne pas permettre l'ordination épiscopale, car notre siège apostolique d'Antioche ne peut
accepter sur son territoire canonique aucun évêque qui ne relève pas de son autorité ecclésiale canonique ...". Il a indiqué aussi, à l'attention des responsables concernés, que "nos coeurs sont ouverts pour vous rencontrer et pour traiter cette question, et toute autre question, comme des frères dans l'esprit du Christ qui seul nous réunis".
En l'absence de toute réponse à ses deux lettres, Sa Béatitude a pris l'initiative par la suite de diffuser cette lettre aux primats de toutes les Eglises orthodoxes autocéphales. Sa Béatitude a informé les participants (à la réunion du Saint Synode d'Antioche) que, en dépit de tous les efforts entrepris et des initiatives fraternelles, l'ordination épiscopale a eu lieu le dimanche 10 mars.
Les pères du Synode ont rendu hommage aux efforts entrepris par Sa Béatitude et ont tenu à exprimer, par l'unanimité des membres présents et l'accord de tous les évêques de la diaspora, la position suivante:
1. La décision du Patriarcat de Jérusalem qui consiste à édifier un archidiocèse sur une terre qui relève canoniquement de la juridiction du siège du Patriarcat d'Antioche constitue, d'une manière qui ne souffre aucune discussion, une intrusion flagrante de la part de l'Eglise de Jérusalem sur le territoire canonique de l'Eglise d'Antioche et par conséquent, constitue un dépassement qui contrevient aux canons qui régissent les relations des Eglises orthodoxes entre elles.
D'autre part, il est à noter que la paroisse orthodoxe à Doha, Etat du Qatar, est constituée d'orthodoxes de différentes nationalités. Le Révérend Père MACAIRE a veillé -et il est remercié pour ce faire- à assurer les besoins pastoraux de cette paroisse, sans que cela sorte du cadre d'une économie ecclésiale temporaire qui vise à faciliter le travail pastoral ecclésial, ni plus ni moins. Une telle économie pastorale ne peut par conséquent souffrir une quelconque interprétation qui confèrerait un quelconque droit ecclésial, de quelque nature que ce soit, au Patriarcat de Jérusalem ou à n'importe laquelle des autres Eglises orthodoxes, sur cette région du Golfe arabe qui relève de la juridiction canonique territoriale du Patriarcat grec-orthodoxe d'Antioche et de tout l'Orient.
Par conséquent, l'Eglise d'Antioche refuse l'initiative du Patriarcat de Jérusalem et ne reconnaîtra aucun évêque sur le territoire de l'Etat du Qatar qui ne serait pas de la souveraineté du siège apostolique d'Antioche, et demande au Patriarcat de Jérusalem d'arranger la situation le plus rapidement possible. L'Eglise d'Antioche espère qu'elle ne sera pas amenée à prendre des positions qui iraient jusqu'à la rupture de communion avec le siège de Jérusalem, et à revoir les relations inter-orthodoxes, et les accords de Genève convenus dans le cadre des commissions préparatoires du Saint et Grand Concile de l'Eglise orthodoxe, et en ceux là, ce qui a trait aux accords relatifs à l'organisation canonique de la diaspora orthodoxe.
2. La situation dont souffrent les chrétiens de cette région, impose à tous, la nécessité d'éviter tout ce qui peut menacer l'unité des fidèles et leur témoignage. Les chrétiens arabes sont appelés à consolider les liens et l'échange entre eux afin de faire face aux multiples défis qui constituent des dangers pour leurs patries respectives, pour qu'ils soient ainsi un levain de paix et de fraternité. L'Eglise d'Antioche est parfaitement consciente du rôle historique et pionnier qui est le sien dans ce domaine, que ce soit dans les sociétés de l'Eglise mère et/ou celles de la diaspora, rôle qu'elle n'abandonnera jamais.
3. Le fait de continuer à ignorer la situation qui résulte de l'ordination de l'Archimandrite MACAIRE comme archevêque du Qatar, verra le Patriarcat d'Antioche, contraint, à prendre des mesures dans l'avenir qu'il souhaite voire éloigner en raison de l'amour et de la charité qui doivent présider aux relations entre les Eglises orthodoxes. Par conséquent, et en raison de cet amour et de cette "charité qui est patiente, et est pleine de bonté" (1 Corinthiens, 13,4), et afin d'ouvrir un espace à des efforts de paix qui, nous espérons, permettront de remettre les choses à leur endroit canonique, l'Eglise d'Antioche va intensifier ses contacts avec les Eglises soeurs pour expliquer sa position, en espérant qu'elles puissent éviter les dangers qui pourraient menacer le plérôme de l'Eglise.
Emis de la résidence patriarcale au BALAMAND, le 13 mars 2013.
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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2013, 04:09:50 PM »

Although it will probably be posted in more official venues soon, the official English text can be read here:  http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-patriarchate-of-antiochs-official.html
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« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2013, 05:07:06 PM »

Here is the video of the concecration of Archbishop Makarios

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z67rd73pBkQ
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« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2013, 06:30:21 PM »

The Synod of Antioch met today and created a statement. I have only seen the Arabic at this point, but based on what we have seen from Patriarch John so far, I expect an English and Greek version to be issued soon.

Basically the statement reaffirms that Qatar is under the territory of Metropolitan Constantine of Baghdad, calls on Jerusalem to work together to show an united front in a difficult region, and ask Jerusalem to rectify this situation.
Where did you see the Arabic?

On the Patriarch's Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Antiochpatriarchate.org. The French was just posted in the same location. I am sure English will be arriving shortly.
Quote
Communiqué
du Saint Synode du Patriarcat grec-orthodoxe d'Antioche
Les membres du Saint Synode du Patriarcat grec-orthodoxe d'Antioche ont tenu une réunion en cette matinée du mercredi 13 mars 2013 au monastère patriarcal Notre Dame de BALAMAND sous la présidence de Sa Béatitude le Patriarche JEAN X, et ce afin d'étudier la situation qui résulte de l'élection du Révérend Archimandrite MACAIRE le lundi 4 mars 2013 par le Saint Synode du Patriarcat grec-orthodoxe de Jérusalem en qualité "d'archevêque du Qatar", élection qui contrevient aux canons du plérome de l'Eglise orthodoxe. A la suite des échanges et après l'approbation des membres du Saint Synode des pays de l'Eglise mère et de ceux de la diaspora, le communiqué suivant a été adopté et a été diffusé à tous les fidèles et communiqué à toutes les Eglises orthodoxes autocéphales.
Communiqué
Sur convocation de Sa Béatitude le Patriarche JEAN X, et dans le contexte des circonstances difficiles et des douleurs qui soufflent sur notre région et qui éprouvent nos enfants, les évêques des pays de l'Eglise Mère du saint siège d'Antioche se sont réunis, après avoir échangé avec leurs frères les évêques de la diaspora de la blessure causée par l'élection et l'ordination de l'Archimandrite MACAIRE en qualité "d'archevêque du Qatar" par le Patriarcat de Jérusalem. Sa Béatitude a passé en revue en début de réunion, les actions qu'il a pu entreprendre dès qu'il a pris connaissance de la nouvelle de l'élection, à travers les médias. Ainsi, et après avoir pris contact avec les membres du Saint Synode du Patriarcat d'Antioche, Sa Béatitude a fait parvenir, dans un premier temps, un message oral à Sa Béatitude le Patriarche de Jérusalem et à Sa Sainteté le Patriarche OEcuménique, qu'il a fait suivre d'une lettre écrite à leur attention dans laquelle il exprimait sa surprise par "la décision du Saint Synode de Jérusalem d'élever le père envoyé à la ville de Doha, à la dignité épiscopale en lui octroyant le titre "d'archevêque du Qatar", et ce sans considération du Patriarcat d'Antioche dans la juridiction géographique canonique de laquelle se trouve l'Etat du Qatar, considérant ainsi qu'il n'est pas permis d'ordonner un évêque dépendant d'une autre Eglise orthodoxe sur cette région, et en particulier en raison du fait que le Patriarcat d'Antioche dispose déjà d'un évêque canonique sur l'ensemble de la région du Golfe arabe, à savoir son Eminence le métropolite Constantin." Sa Béatitude a prié dans sa lettre les personnes concernées de revenir sur cette décision et de ne pas permettre l'ordination épiscopale, car notre siège apostolique d'Antioche ne peut
accepter sur son territoire canonique aucun évêque qui ne relève pas de son autorité ecclésiale canonique ...". Il a indiqué aussi, à l'attention des responsables concernés, que "nos coeurs sont ouverts pour vous rencontrer et pour traiter cette question, et toute autre question, comme des frères dans l'esprit du Christ qui seul nous réunis".
En l'absence de toute réponse à ses deux lettres, Sa Béatitude a pris l'initiative par la suite de diffuser cette lettre aux primats de toutes les Eglises orthodoxes autocéphales. Sa Béatitude a informé les participants (à la réunion du Saint Synode d'Antioche) que, en dépit de tous les efforts entrepris et des initiatives fraternelles, l'ordination épiscopale a eu lieu le dimanche 10 mars.
Les pères du Synode ont rendu hommage aux efforts entrepris par Sa Béatitude et ont tenu à exprimer, par l'unanimité des membres présents et l'accord de tous les évêques de la diaspora, la position suivante:
1. La décision du Patriarcat de Jérusalem qui consiste à édifier un archidiocèse sur une terre qui relève canoniquement de la juridiction du siège du Patriarcat d'Antioche constitue, d'une manière qui ne souffre aucune discussion, une intrusion flagrante de la part de l'Eglise de Jérusalem sur le territoire canonique de l'Eglise d'Antioche et par conséquent, constitue un dépassement qui contrevient aux canons qui régissent les relations des Eglises orthodoxes entre elles.
D'autre part, il est à noter que la paroisse orthodoxe à Doha, Etat du Qatar, est constituée d'orthodoxes de différentes nationalités. Le Révérend Père MACAIRE a veillé -et il est remercié pour ce faire- à assurer les besoins pastoraux de cette paroisse, sans que cela sorte du cadre d'une économie ecclésiale temporaire qui vise à faciliter le travail pastoral ecclésial, ni plus ni moins. Une telle économie pastorale ne peut par conséquent souffrir une quelconque interprétation qui confèrerait un quelconque droit ecclésial, de quelque nature que ce soit, au Patriarcat de Jérusalem ou à n'importe laquelle des autres Eglises orthodoxes, sur cette région du Golfe arabe qui relève de la juridiction canonique territoriale du Patriarcat grec-orthodoxe d'Antioche et de tout l'Orient.
Par conséquent, l'Eglise d'Antioche refuse l'initiative du Patriarcat de Jérusalem et ne reconnaîtra aucun évêque sur le territoire de l'Etat du Qatar qui ne serait pas de la souveraineté du siège apostolique d'Antioche, et demande au Patriarcat de Jérusalem d'arranger la situation le plus rapidement possible. L'Eglise d'Antioche espère qu'elle ne sera pas amenée à prendre des positions qui iraient jusqu'à la rupture de communion avec le siège de Jérusalem, et à revoir les relations inter-orthodoxes, et les accords de Genève convenus dans le cadre des commissions préparatoires du Saint et Grand Concile de l'Eglise orthodoxe, et en ceux là, ce qui a trait aux accords relatifs à l'organisation canonique de la diaspora orthodoxe.
2. La situation dont souffrent les chrétiens de cette région, impose à tous, la nécessité d'éviter tout ce qui peut menacer l'unité des fidèles et leur témoignage. Les chrétiens arabes sont appelés à consolider les liens et l'échange entre eux afin de faire face aux multiples défis qui constituent des dangers pour leurs patries respectives, pour qu'ils soient ainsi un levain de paix et de fraternité. L'Eglise d'Antioche est parfaitement consciente du rôle historique et pionnier qui est le sien dans ce domaine, que ce soit dans les sociétés de l'Eglise mère et/ou celles de la diaspora, rôle qu'elle n'abandonnera jamais.
3. Le fait de continuer à ignorer la situation qui résulte de l'ordination de l'Archimandrite MACAIRE comme archevêque du Qatar, verra le Patriarcat d'Antioche, contraint, à prendre des mesures dans l'avenir qu'il souhaite voire éloigner en raison de l'amour et de la charité qui doivent présider aux relations entre les Eglises orthodoxes. Par conséquent, et en raison de cet amour et de cette "charité qui est patiente, et est pleine de bonté" (1 Corinthiens, 13,4), et afin d'ouvrir un espace à des efforts de paix qui, nous espérons, permettront de remettre les choses à leur endroit canonique, l'Eglise d'Antioche va intensifier ses contacts avec les Eglises soeurs pour expliquer sa position, en espérant qu'elles puissent éviter les dangers qui pourraient menacer le plérôme de l'Eglise.
Emis de la résidence patriarcale au BALAMAND, le 13 mars 2013.
bien, I had been looking on the web page.

More after they wrap up in the Vatican.
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« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2013, 06:30:21 PM »

Although it will probably be posted in more official venues soon, the official English text can be read here:  http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-patriarchate-of-antiochs-official.html
LOL. That was the second place I went after the Patriarchate's website.
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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2013, 08:31:49 AM »

Kind of ironic that this would post on the day of the Papal election. Back in the day (of the Pentarchy) this type of dispute might have been resolved by looking west to the "primus" for advice. Just sayin'  ...   Cheesy
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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2013, 11:41:25 AM »

Kind of ironic that this would post on the day of the Papal election. Back in the day (of the Pentarchy) this type of dispute might have been resolved by looking west to the "primus" for advice. Just sayin'  ...   Cheesy

Well obviously, he would say it is in fact in the jurisdiction of Rome! See, as Patriarch of the West, if you go west far enough, you eventually hit Qatar! Therefore, mine mine mine! Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2013, 01:21:22 PM »

Kind of ironic that this would post on the day of the Papal election. Back in the day (of the Pentarchy) this type of dispute might have been resolved by looking west to the "primus" for advice. Just sayin'  ...   Cheesy
LOL. No, it wouldn't have: Rome exacerbated the Meletian schism in Antioch, and had no part in healing the jurisdictional dispute between Antioch and Jerusalem at the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon.

Now we have a foreign patriarch who thinks he can solve everything in the Phanar.
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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2013, 04:21:26 PM »

The Russian, Romania, and Georgian parishes in the Gulf all commemorate Metropolitan Constantine. This has been discussed before in other threads; the Gulf governments have been building churches for various ethnics working in their countries. So a group says they need a church, a church is built, a priest is sent, but they all (except Jerusalem) recognize the territory is ecclesiastically Antioch.

And I think it's the best attitude.

I have no doubts that Qatar is the canonical territory of the Antiochian Patriarchate, however, as it's even mentioned in its official statement, they should be grateful that an Orthodox Church has sent a priest to this flock. I wonder why the Antiochian Patriarchate hadn't done it before. And now it's ridiculous, because Qatar is its territory and for sure there are a lot of parishioners that proceed from the Antiochian Church, but they don't have any theirs own parish in the country nor any theirs priest.

Maybe the best solution would be if archbishop Makarios was translated to Antiochian Church  Huh
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« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2013, 04:44:18 PM »

The Russian, Romania, and Georgian parishes in the Gulf all commemorate Metropolitan Constantine. This has been discussed before in other threads; the Gulf governments have been building churches for various ethnics working in their countries. So a group says they need a church, a church is built, a priest is sent, but they all (except Jerusalem) recognize the territory is ecclesiastically Antioch.

And I think it's the best attitude.

I have no doubts that Qatar is the canonical territory of the Antiochian Patriarchate, however, as it's even mentioned in its official statement, they should be grateful that an Orthodox Church has sent a priest to this flock. I wonder why the Antiochian Patriarchate hadn't done it before. And now it's ridiculous, because Qatar is its territory and for sure there are a lot of parishioners that proceed from the Antiochian Church, but they don't have any theirs own parish in the country nor any theirs priest.

Maybe the best solution would be if archbishop Makarios was translated to Antiochian Church  Huh

In the Gulf region it is very complicated when it comes to ministering to Christians. Some countries it is easier then others. It is not as simple as sending a priest. All of these countries are require Christian communities to register, and the nations go out of their way to make their life difficult. 
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« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2013, 07:09:10 PM »

There is one thing I do not understand: why have they created a diocese for one parish?

BTW That statement says he had been allowed by Antioch to serve there before the consecration. At least I understand it like that.
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« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2013, 08:21:52 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Interesting.  What does the Phanar have to say about Qatar? (It's Antioch's btw).  Should be interesting conversation if they have that "Ancient Patriarchates and Cyprus" thing again.

I thought it was Alexadria's? ;-)
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« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2013, 08:32:13 PM »

There is one thing I do not understand: why have they created a diocese for one parish?

BTW That statement says he had been allowed by Antioch to serve there before the consecration. At least I understand it like that.
what passport does he travel on?

Is it for one parish?  The Holy Synod's decision mentions "a canonical Metropolitan ruling all the Arab Gulf countries, His Eminence Metropolitan Constantine [of Bagdad, Kuwait and Dependencies]"  The website
http://www.gulforthodoxchurch.org/
lists priests in Oman, the UAR (2), Bahrain, Kuwait and Iraq.  I know a lot of American soldiers who served in Iraq.  The priests they saw were all Antiochian.


The problem is that the Patriarch of Jerusalem and All Palestine and his Holy Synod have just rendered a judgement by which they will be judged (see excerpts below):
http://www.jp-newsgate.net/en/2013/02/21/2339/#more-2339

Jerusalem breaks off communion with Bucharest
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36033.0.html
Quote
To this purpose, the Romanian Patriarchate recognizes fully and unreservedly the canonical jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem in the Holy Land with its pastoral implications.

Jerusalem restores Bucharest to the Diptychs
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50153.0.html

Quote
Regarding the status of the church and the pilgrim’s hostel in Jericho, the Romanian Patriarchate should remain the owner of these buildings, while the spiritual, liturgical and ecclesiastical use of these buildings should depend on the canonical blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem:
a)    The priests serving in the church of these buildings should be appointed by the Patriarch of Jerusalem on the basis of recommendation of the Patriarch of Romania. It is of course understood that the Patriarch of Jerusalem may Himself or with his clergy liturgically use this church whenever he decides to do so;
b)    All priests celebrating the Divine Liturgy in the church should commemorate at the anaphora (ἐν πρώτοις μνήσθητι) only the Patriarch of Jerusalem, while at the Great Entrance the priests may commemorate also the name of the Patriarch of Romania;
c)     The Antimision will be received from the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

And, for the parties directly invovled:
Quote
The Romanian Patriarchate will avoid in the future to build churches or shrines on the canonical territory of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem without written agreement.
Concerning the status of Archimandrite Ieronim Creţu, who was deposed from the rank of priesthood, it was agreed that the Patriarchate of Jerusalem will lift up this canonical measure, and the Romanian Patriarchate will call him back to Romania
Quote
Fathers of the Third Ecumenical Council of Ephesus
c. 8. Our fellow Bishop Reginus, most beloved by God, and with him the most God-beloved Bishops of the province of the Cypriotes Zeno and Evagrius, has announced an innovation, a thing which is contrary to the ecclesiastical laws and the Canons of the Holy Apostles, and one which touches the freedom of all. Hence, since common ailments require more drastic treatment, on the ground that they do greater damage, and especially in view of the fact that the Bishop of Antioch, far from following the ancient custom, has been performing the ordinations in Cyprus, according to information given in libelli and by oral statements made by most pious gentlemen who have approached the Holy Council; therefore those who preside over the churches in Cyprus shall retain their privilege unaffected and inviolate, according to the Canons of the Holy Fathers and ancient custom, whereby they shall themselves perform the ordinations of the most reverent Bishops. The same rule shall hold good also with regard to the other diocese and churches everywhere, so that none of the Bishops most beloved by God shall take hold of any other province that was not formerly and from the beginning in his jurisdiction, or was not, that is to say, held by his predecessors. But if anyone has taken possession of any and has forcibly subjected it to his authority, he shall regive it back to its rightful possessor, in order that the Canons of the Fathers be not transgressed, nor the secular fastus be introduced, under the pretext of divine services; lest imperceptibly and little by little we lose the freedom which our Lord Jesus Christ, the Liberator of all men, has given us as a free gift by His own blood. It has therefore seemed best to the holy and Ecumenical Council that the rights of every province, formerly and from the beginning belonging to it, be preserved clear and inviolable, in accordance with the custom which prevailed of yore; each Metropolitan having permission to take copies of the proceedings for his own security. If, on the other hand, anyone introduce any form conflicting with the decrees which have now been sanctioned, it has seemed best to the entire holy and Ecumenical Council that it be invalid and of no effect.
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« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2013, 08:34:04 PM »

Is it for one parish?  The Holy Synod's decision mentions "a canonical Metropolitan ruling all the Arab Gulf countries, His Eminence Metropolitan Constantine [of Bagdad, Kuwait and Dependencies]"  The website
http://www.gulforthodoxchurch.org/
lists priests in Oman, the UAR (2), Bahrain, Kuwait and Iraq.

I was asking about the JP diocese.

Quote
I know a lot of American soldiers who served in Iraq.  The priests they saw were all Antiochian.

Do these American / Canadian / Ukrainian / Romanian chaplains commemorate Metr. Constantine or their own bishops?
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« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2013, 08:38:05 PM »

Two Patriarchates that don't even have a country protesting who's got what territory. 

I wasn't aware of any Patriarchate that "has a country" after 1870.
What happened in 1870?

Interesting.  What does the Phanar have to say about Qatar? (It's Antioch's btw).  Should be interesting conversation if they have that "Ancient Patriarchates and Cyprus" thing again.

I thought it was Alexadria's? ;-)
Alexandria doesn't even go to the Eastern border of the State of Egypt-Sinai is under Jerusalem (although, at least when I was there, the Archbishop's office was in the metochion in Cairo).  That's OK.  Alexandria has its hands full with "All of Africa," although it has at least twice had jurisdictions in the New World so called "diaspora"
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2013, 08:45:46 PM »

Is it for one parish?  The Holy Synod's decision mentions "a canonical Metropolitan ruling all the Arab Gulf countries, His Eminence Metropolitan Constantine [of Bagdad, Kuwait and Dependencies]"  The website
http://www.gulforthodoxchurch.org/
lists priests in Oman, the UAR (2), Bahrain, Kuwait and Iraq.

I was asking about the JP diocese.
Is there such a thing?  It seems the parish in question was (and is) within the jurisdiction of Antioch.  Somewhere we had a thread on it, long ago.  There are lots of Palestinians in the Gulf, and have been for decades.  But their situation is the same as the many Palestinians in Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, not those in Jordan.

Quote
I know a lot of American soldiers who served in Iraq.  The priests they saw were all Antiochian.

Do these American / Canadian / Ukrainian / Romanian chaplains commemorate Metr. Constantine or their own bishops?
I don't know that, but can find out this weekend (at least for the Americans).
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2013, 08:46:49 PM »

Is there such a thing?  It seems the parish in question was (and is) within the jurisdiction of Antioch.

Was. Now it's in jurisdiction of the JP diocese. This is what's this thread is about, isn't it.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 08:50:25 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2013, 09:20:41 PM »

Is there such a thing?  It seems the parish in question was (and is) within the jurisdiction of Antioch.

Was. Now it's in jurisdiction of the JP diocese. This is what's this thread is about, isn't it.
No, it's not, at least not according to the standard the Patriarchate of Jerusalem uses, based on the Sacred Canons of the Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils:
Quote
Regarding the status of the church and the pilgrim’s hostel in Jericho, the Romanian Patriarchate should remain the owner of these buildings, while the spiritual, liturgical and ecclesiastical use of these buildings should depend on the canonical blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem:
a)    The priests serving in the church of these buildings should be appointed by the Patriarch of Jerusalem on the basis of recommendation of the Patriarch of Romania. It is of course understood that the Patriarch of Jerusalem may Himself or with his clergy liturgically use this church whenever he decides to do so;
b)    All priests celebrating the Divine Liturgy in the church should commemorate at the anaphora (ἐν πρώτοις μνήσθητι) only the Patriarch of Jerusalem, while at the Great Entrance the priests may commemorate also the name of the Patriarch of Romania;
c)     The Antimision will be received from the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

And, for the parties directly invovled:
Quote
The Romanian Patriarchate will avoid in the future to build churches or shrines on the canonical territory of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem without written agreement.
Concerning the status of Archimandrite Ieronim Creţu, who was deposed from the rank of priesthood, it was agreed that the Patriarchate of Jerusalem will lift up this canonical measure, and the Romanian Patriarchate will call him back to Romania
Quote
Fathers of the Third Ecumenical Council of Ephesus
c. 8. Our fellow Bishop Reginus, most beloved by God, and with him the most God-beloved Bishops of the province of the Cypriotes Zeno and Evagrius, has announced an innovation, a thing which is contrary to the ecclesiastical laws and the Canons of the Holy Apostles, and one which touches the freedom of all. Hence, since common ailments require more drastic treatment, on the ground that they do greater damage, and especially in view of the fact that the Bishop of Antioch, far from following the ancient custom, has been performing the ordinations in Cyprus, according to information given in libelli and by oral statements made by most pious gentlemen who have approached the Holy Council; therefore those who preside over the churches in Cyprus shall retain their privilege unaffected and inviolate, according to the Canons of the Holy Fathers and ancient custom, whereby they shall themselves perform the ordinations of the most reverent Bishops. The same rule shall hold good also with regard to the other diocese and churches everywhere, so that none of the Bishops most beloved by God shall take hold of any other province that was not formerly and from the beginning in his jurisdiction, or was not, that is to say, held by his predecessors. But if anyone has taken possession of any and has forcibly subjected it to his authority, he shall regive it back to its rightful possessor, in order that the Canons of the Fathers be not transgressed, nor the secular fastus be introduced, under the pretext of divine services; lest imperceptibly and little by little we lose the freedom which our Lord Jesus Christ, the Liberator of all men, has given us as a free gift by His own blood. It has therefore seemed best to the holy and Ecumenical Council that the rights of every province, formerly and from the beginning belonging to it, be preserved clear and inviolable, in accordance with the custom which prevailed of yore; each Metropolitan having permission to take copies of the proceedings for his own security. If, on the other hand, anyone introduce any form conflicting with the decrees which have now been sanctioned, it has seemed best to the entire holy and Ecumenical Council that it be invalid and of no effect.
Fathers of the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople
c. 4. As concerning Maximus the Cynic, and the disturbance caused by him in Constantinople, it is hereby decreed that Maximus neither became nor is a Bishop, and that neither are those ordained by him entitled to hold any clerical rank whatsoever. Let everything connected with him or done by him be annulled.

The decision of Patriarch John of Antioch and All the East, March 13, 2013
1- The decision of the Jerusalem Patriarchate to establish an Archbishopric on a territory which belongs to the Holy Synod of Antioch is, without question, an illegal interference from the Jerusalem Patriarchate in the territorial jurisdiction of the Antiochian Church, thus breaking the ecclesiastical canons that regulate the relationship among Orthodox Churches.

On the other hand, the Orthodox parish in Doha, Qatar, is composed of Orthodox faithful from various nationalities. We are grateful that Archimandrite Makarios provided all necessary pastoral care to this particular parish, but it was a temporary arrangement to facilitate this pastoral activity, no more and no less. This pastoral arrangement cannot be taken as giving any ecclesiastical privilege, of any sort, to the Patriarchate of Jerusalem or to any other Orthodox Church. Again, the Arab Gulf falls under the canonical and ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Antioch and all the East.

The Antiochian Church refuses to accept the action taken by the Jerusalem Patriarchate, and will not recognize any bishop on the territory of the country of Qatar outside the authority of the Antiochian Apostolic See, and asks that the Patriarchate of Jerusalem should resolve his matter as soon as possible. The Antiochian Church hopes not to have to take a stand leading to the breaking of communion with the Jerusalem Patriarchate. She also hopes not to have to reconsider the principles governing the Orthodox Church relations and the Geneva agreements which have been set by the preparatory committees of the upcoming Great and Holy Orthodox Synod, especially those dealing with the Orthodox worldwide(Diaspora).

Where was the antimens from?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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