OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 19, 2014, 04:21:54 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Mass Conversion to Syriac Orthodoxy in Central America  (Read 2685 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Mexican
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Posts: 489


« on: March 08, 2013, 10:33:31 PM »

Hello Friends:

It was anounced that Bp. Eduardo Aguirre Oestmann of the "Renewed Ecumenical Catholic Church of Guatemala", an independent formerly Roman Catholic group currently present in Guatemala and Southern Mexico, was received into the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch as Archbishop Mor Yaqub of Central America.

http://www.icergua.org/latam/noticias/13/03.html#9

Mor Yaqub had previously been consecrated by a Bishop of the Brazilian Apostolic Church, of the Duarte-Costa line. From what I understand, Bishop Eduardo was received by the Syriac Orthodox Church by vesting, without being re-ordained (the Roman Catholic Church's stance towards the Duarte Costa line bishops varies from full recognition of the orders to full denial of them).

I wonder what the attitude of other Churches be, towards this new Christian group being received in Orthodoxy. The Coptic Church, for example, generally baptized new converts. The Syriac Orthodox Church, on the other side, received all these people without Baptism, and the clergy without reordination.

The rite currently in use by the "Renewed Ecumenical Catholic Church of Guatemala" is the Novus Ordo liturgy, celebrated versus populum, with the modern lectionary and accompanied by guitars. According to the documents, the Syriac Orthodox Church expects that the newly received group of Christians, will gradually adopt the Syriac Orthodox rites. I hope this is done soon, as I would see no reason for Oriental Orthodox Christians to approve a rite which is so polemically criticized within the Church where it originated, the Roman Catholic Church.

I see no reason not to use the Oriental rites, as it has been proved that these rites fit perfectly in the mindset of the Latin American communities. I do recognize that the Byzantine Rite is better for the Western mind, but the Latin American reacts better with the Coptic Rite, for example. There is no need for a Western Rite, as this would cause confusion.

Have a great day.
Logged
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2013, 10:53:33 PM »

Glory be to God!

I'm also glad that they converted to canonical Syriac Orthodoxy and not some knock-off schismatic group.
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,831



« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2013, 11:00:15 PM »

I don't mean to be insensitive, but this is about the fourth time in as many years that there was talk of a huge Central American group converting to some version or other of Orthodoxy. Is it actually happening this time?
Logged

Yes, yes, youth is wasted on the young. And so is accumulated experience wasted on the old, the positives of modernism wasted on moderns, the beauty of Christianity wasted on Christians, the utility of scholarship wasted on scholars, and on and on.
Mexican
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Posts: 489


« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2013, 11:14:25 PM »

The Greek Orthodox Church of the Patriarchate of Constantinople also received a group of Christians in Guatemala, led by Archimandrite Andres Giron. He was the founder of a formerly vagante Christian group (Society of Clerks of St Basil) and he's now in a canonical good standing as a part of the Contantinople Patriarchate:

http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.cl/News/news.html

However, the group has no website and we have no information about what is currently going on with the missions they founded. It is my understanding that they are doing well as Greek Orthodox and that they're very serious.

Both Eduardo Aguirre (now Mor Yaqub) and Archimandrite Andrew Giron, had been excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church because of their schismatic activities. It's really a blessing that they sought the true faith and that they were received by canonical Churches.
Logged
Samn!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 302


« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2013, 11:43:47 PM »

Here are links to talk and Q&A with Fr Giron about the Greek Orthodox activity in Guatemala--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbYbhmSj2og

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn36X4JUT4w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3b6cnz8PdM
Logged
Irish Melkite
Information Mongeror
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite Greek-Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Posts: 986


WWW
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2013, 03:48:11 AM »

The Greek Orthodox Church of the Patriarchate of Constantinople also received a group of Christians in Guatemala, led by Archimandrite Andres Giron. He was the founder of a formerly vagante Christian group (Society of Clerks of St Basil) and he's now in a canonical good standing as a part of the Contantinople Patriarchate:

http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.cl/News/news.html

Reme, my brother.

Archimandrite Andres was a member of the Society of Clerks of St Basil (a vagante body affiliated at various times with several non-canonical ecclesia, including THEOCACNA at one point) but not its founder.

Many years,

Neil

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2013, 04:33:19 AM »

Hello Friends:

It was anounced that Bp. Eduardo Aguirre Oestmann of the "Renewed Ecumenical Catholic Church of Guatemala", an independent formerly Roman Catholic group currently present in Guatemala and Southern Mexico, was received into the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch as Archbishop Mor Yaqub of Central America.

http://www.icergua.org/latam/noticias/13/03.html#9

Mor Yaqub had previously been consecrated by a Bishop of the Brazilian Apostolic Church, of the Duarte-Costa line. From what I understand, Bishop Eduardo was received by the Syriac Orthodox Church by vesting, without being re-ordained (the Roman Catholic Church's stance towards the Duarte Costa line bishops varies from full recognition of the orders to full denial of them).

I wonder what the attitude of other Churches be, towards this new Christian group being received in Orthodoxy. The Coptic Church, for example, generally baptized new converts. The Syriac Orthodox Church, on the other side, received all these people without Baptism, and the clergy without reordination.

The rite currently in use by the "Renewed Ecumenical Catholic Church of Guatemala" is the Novus Ordo liturgy, celebrated versus populum, with the modern lectionary and accompanied by guitars. According to the documents, the Syriac Orthodox Church expects that the newly received group of Christians, will gradually adopt the Syriac Orthodox rites. I hope this is done soon, as I would see no reason for Oriental Orthodox Christians to approve a rite which is so polemically criticized within the Church where it originated, the Roman Catholic Church.

I see no reason not to use the Oriental rites, as it has been proved that these rites fit perfectly in the mindset of the Latin American communities. I do recognize that the Byzantine Rite is better for the Western mind, but the Latin American reacts better with the Coptic Rite, for example. There is no need for a Western Rite, as this would cause confusion.

Have a great day.

This is interesting that the Syriac Orthodox Church tolerates, at least for a time,  the celebration of the roman New Mass under its umbrella. So the guitar music and kumbaya singing is not so bad after all, according to the Syriac Orthodox Church?
Logged
Mexican
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Posts: 489


« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2013, 01:36:49 PM »

Thanks for the clarification about the Society of Clerks of St. Basil.

It's interesting to see that both Fr. Andrew Giron's group, as well as Bp. Eduardo's group, do not come from a Traditionalist background (which would easily explain their conversion to Orthodoxy, as Orthodoxy tends to be Traditionalist in its liturgical life). Both groups come from the left-wing of Roman Catholicism, that is, the Charismatic renewal.

This mirrors the experience of the Western Rite vicariates of Orthodoxy in the United States, whose members mostly come from a Charismatic or Evangelical background and not from a Traditionalist one (it seems that both Traditional Catholics and Traditional Anglicans are happy with what they have).

I really hope that the use of the Novus Ordo liturgy will be restricted to a certain period of time, as the Novus Ordo liturgy represents a break with the liturgical tradition of the Christian Church. The switch from the modern rite to the Syriac Orthodox liturgy will not be an easy one for the congregations so they should start with it, as soon as possible.

Logged
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2013, 02:05:35 AM »

I am impressed and happy that this is happening.

It will be a wake up call to find remedies to the legacy mistrust and prejudice existing between people of greater or lesser degree of indigenous and european background in Guatemala. It may also reflect some of the limitations of the post vat II Roman Catholic Church to successfully evangelize in the context of a colonial society that has had serious flaws since the beginning.

But I am surprised that you mention the western rite. I too feel certain that the Novus Ordo as it practiced there currently will not last once Orthodoxy takes root.

As far as the charismatic background of Latin/Western rite in Orthodox Church, whether this is true remains to be seen.
At the present time there is apparently a VERY large contigent of anglo-catholics waiting to enter ROCOR's WR which may overnight change that situation to become more complex than described by my esteemed and dear friend "Mexican".

Ironically, ROCOR has recently put a spanish language version of it's mass on their website.
I would bet money that eventually, within a decade, a western rite mission will come to exist in Guatemala.
There's too many people familiar with it who live there for it to be entirely ignored.

It is unquestionable that the Latin rite can be a powerful force within the Orthodox Church when it comes to evangelization.

It was Gregorian chant that lays claim to first orthodox form of chant to be adapted into native american language. Perhaps the Iroquois language Gradual for the Mass made by french missionaries in Canada can serve as an example and inspiration to do the same with the "Quichean–Mamean" language of the highlands of Guatemala by Orthodox missionaries?

Perhaps my expertise in making Quetzaltenango style "Christmas" tamales will eventually find greater appreciation.  Cheesy

http://bohemianbowmans.com/authentic-guatemalan-tamales-for-realz/#comment-15129

You can give it a try if you ever have the time, it might come in handy. My recipe has a few secret ingredients not found there but is very close to the above link.

What an interesting time to be alive!

« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 02:21:16 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 480



« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2013, 11:01:43 AM »

The new Archbishop Mor Yacoub Edward (the one holding the staff), along with H.H Ignatius Zakka I, Patriarch of Antioch and all the East at St Jacob Baradeaus Monastery in Atchena, Beirut, Lebanon on 06 March 2013.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 11:03:23 AM by dhinuus » Logged

NULL
Mexican
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Posts: 489


« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2013, 09:39:46 PM »

Guatemala already has a canonical Orthodox presence. There is a small l Antiochian Orthodox community (most of them Arab descent) and Abp. Chedraoui of the Antiochian Church lists Guatemala as part of his canonical territory, there is a monastery there.

Then, the Greek Orthodox group under Constantinople is new and formed by converts. Their leader, Fr. Andrew Giron, was a leftist politician. At the beggining, his organization was heavily influenced by the Liberation Theology but they gradually switched to Orthodoxy and now they're part of a canonical Church, even though there is no website or on line media to support their work. I believe they are serious.

The ICERGUA Church, which became part of the Syriac Orthodox Church, is also charismatic in worship and his bishop was excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church, as he founded an Ecumenical community wishing to make Catholics closer to Orthodoxy.

There are other communities of Orthodox minded Christians in Guatemala like the vagant HOCNA and other small independent groups.

MK was here
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 06:41:23 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,887



« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2013, 09:50:32 PM »

Is swapping deck chairs and encouraging dissension really evangelism?
Logged
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2013, 01:54:30 AM »

The Roman Catholic Church never successfully evangelized to the Mayan peoples of Guatemala (which if you don't know represents the MAJORITY of the population of the entire country).

The answer is without a shadow of a doubt "YES" this is REAL evangelism occuring now, which should have been successfully accomplished 400 years ago perhaps, but politics, prejudice, disease and all sorts of reasons discouraged it.

Anyone is free to evangelize people who have never been evangelized successfully.
Many mayans still burn incense in caves to the old gods and or mix the pagan with the christian practices.
It is a work in progress.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 01:56:16 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Tags: Syriac  guatemala  orthodox  conversion  indigenous 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.071 seconds with 39 queries.