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Author Topic: The dead don't care about us  (Read 1080 times) Average Rating: 0
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Eastern Mind
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« on: March 08, 2013, 05:20:03 PM »

I remember reading several protestants on an internet forum talking about how intercession of the saints is useless because no one in heaven cares about us. They will be too busy worshiping God and happy to be off earth. One even commented, "once I'm dead, I couldn't care less how bad everything is on earth!"

It kind of saddened me that someone could think that our loved ones, the saints, or anyone else wouldn't care about us enough to pray for our conversion or pray for us in general. Can the Protestants here tell me why this is, or if you agree or disagree? Other members can also post too, if they wish.
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2013, 05:20:47 PM »

Sounds very unchristian.
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2013, 05:23:03 PM »

"once I'm dead, I couldn't care less how bad everything is on earth!"
Hmm this could be a source for a lot of limited progession in society...

Sort of scary people think this way.
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2013, 05:26:10 PM »

Sounds very unchristian.

And, directly related to that, unbiblical as well.
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2013, 05:28:26 PM »

Sounds very unchristian.

And, directly related to that, unbiblical as well.
Can you pull out the Bible verses for a refutation for me? IIRC I thought I read something in Revelation about this very thing.
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2013, 05:31:26 PM »

Sounds very unchristian.

And, directly related to that, unbiblical as well.
Can you pull out the Bible verses for a refutation for me? IIRC I thought I read something in Revelation about this very thing.

There is a passage in Revelation that I am thinking of, and also one in 2 Maccabees (not that Protestants would accept that as an authority, but it at least shows that the idea was there in Judaism)... I think it can also be inferred from other passages like the "cloud of witnesses" stuff. I'll try to post exact references in a bit.
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2013, 05:34:03 PM »

Sounds very unchristian.

And, directly related to that, unbiblical as well.
Can you pull out the Bible verses for a refutation for me? IIRC I thought I read something in Revelation about this very thing.

There is a passage in Revelation that I am thinking of, and also one in 2 Maccabees (not that Protestants would accept that as an authority, but it at least shows that the idea was there in Judaism)... I think it can also be inferred from other passages like the "cloud of witnesses" stuff. I'll try to post exact references in a bit.
Yeah 2nd Maccabees seems to be the place, doesn't that also discuss the resurrection?

I've been skipping around in the Bible a lot. Last night it was some of Sirach, Luke, 2 Samuel and 4 Maccabees.
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2013, 06:09:03 PM »

Also, there's the Transfiguration. The Lord saw fit to allow Moses and Elijah to appear with Him. This shows that the saints are with God, and their obedience to Him shows His power and love.
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2013, 06:18:54 PM »

The Dead in heaven watch with attentiveness the events of the Earth, interceding with God:

Quote from: Apocalypse of St. John the Theologian, ch. 6, vv. 9-11
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Notice that the martyrs are "under the altar." This shows the ancient practice of celebrating the Liturgy upon the tombs of the martyrs, imagery that would've been well known and referenced in St John's time. This was so important that, even when Christians began building free-standing temples, relics were (and still are) placed within the altar. In Rome, this was such a powerful image that they built their altars to resemble tombs.

---

Prayer for the dead is an ancient Jewish custom, offering up prayer and sacrifice for the forgiveness of their sins. We still do this today by offering prayers for the dead and serving Memorial Liturgies,particularly at certain times of the year that call for general commemorations of the departed. This coming Saturday is such a "Soul Saturday", where righteous departed monastics are remembered generally. Many of the Soul Saturdays are in and around Great Lent. This passage from 2 Maccabees shows that such a custom is indeed Jewish in origin, and not a later innovation:

Quote from: 2 Maccabees, ch. 12, vv.38-46
Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the week was ending, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there. On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.

But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice.

In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2013, 06:37:10 PM »

One even commented, "once I'm dead, I couldn't care less how bad everything is on earth!"
There's a snapshot of a psyche I'd be ashamed to share.
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2013, 07:03:27 PM »


That's so not true....they all care....saints, and non-saints, alike.

The saints gather to pray along with us at the Divine Liturgy.  They perform miracles to heal us, pray to God to help and forgive us.  Countless saints have appeared after their deaths to come to our aid.  Read up on St. Nektarios.  http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/11/unbelievable-yet-true-miracle-of-saint.html

Even our deceased family members care.  Hasn't anyone experienced seeing their "dead" in time of crisis in a dream?  I know I have.  When I'm not even thinking about them....because I'm so stressed and there are major life issues weighing me down..... my godfather shows up in my dreams to calm me down and give me some perspective.  Yes, you could say it's coincidence.....however, on that same night my mother, who was also stressed about the same thing I was....also had seen her brother in her dreams.  Now THAT is a coincidence.

I have to believe he sees us and is concerned and therefore, manifests in our dreams.  I know we are advised not to believe our dreams, and sometimes they truly are not from God and only serve to scare and cause insecurity in us.  However, my godfather, when he does show up, rarely speaks.  He works, he sits, he doesn't smile or joke....but, every once in a while he will utter a sentence.  This sentence will confound us and we won't know what it means, until days later, something happens....and the light-bulb goes off. 

My mom is really devout....and one night in her dream a recently dead parishioner "visited".   In her dream the woman asked my mom to go to church on Saturday evening and to pray and light a candle for her.  She asked me to take her to Vespers so she could pray for this lady.  When we entered the Narthex a man was at the candle stand.  He was buying candles....and seeing my mother, he turned and gave her one....without asking if she wanted one or not.

We had arrived early for Vespers, but, there was already a service in progress.  It turned out that the lady's children were having a memorial service for her.  My mom held the lit candle during the service and prayed for the peaceful repose of this woman.

Coincidence?

I have more examples like these.  They can't be just mere coincidence.


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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2013, 07:51:51 PM »


That's so not true....they all care....saints, and non-saints, alike.

The saints gather to pray along with us at the Divine Liturgy.  They perform miracles to heal us, pray to God to help and forgive us.  Countless saints have appeared after their deaths to come to our aid.  Read up on St. Nektarios.  http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/11/unbelievable-yet-true-miracle-of-saint.html

Even our deceased family members care.  Hasn't anyone experienced seeing their "dead" in time of crisis in a dream?  I know I have.  When I'm not even thinking about them....because I'm so stressed and there are major life issues weighing me down..... my godfather shows up in my dreams to calm me down and give me some perspective.  Yes, you could say it's coincidence.....however, on that same night my mother, who was also stressed about the same thing I was....also had seen her brother in her dreams.  Now THAT is a coincidence.

I have to believe he sees us and is concerned and therefore, manifests in our dreams.  I know we are advised not to believe our dreams, and sometimes they truly are not from God and only serve to scare and cause insecurity in us.  However, my godfather, when he does show up, rarely speaks.  He works, he sits, he doesn't smile or joke....but, every once in a while he will utter a sentence.  This sentence will confound us and we won't know what it means, until days later, something happens....and the light-bulb goes off. 

My mom is really devout....and one night in her dream a recently dead parishioner "visited".   In her dream the woman asked my mom to go to church on Saturday evening and to pray and light a candle for her.  She asked me to take her to Vespers so she could pray for this lady.  When we entered the Narthex a man was at the candle stand.  He was buying candles....and seeing my mother, he turned and gave her one....without asking if she wanted one or not.

We had arrived early for Vespers, but, there was already a service in progress.  It turned out that the lady's children were having a memorial service for her.  My mom held the lit candle during the service and prayed for the peaceful repose of this woman.

Coincidence?

I have more examples like these.  They can't be just mere coincidence.


Wow! and Wow!

When my godfather Leo died, it was so unexpected. I did not realize at the time how invasive liver cancer could be. He was gone before I had a chance to visit him.

I prayed for him and asked the priest to do a memorial service, but I was in tears. Not wanting to upset my young son, I asked my uncle Leo to share some of his joy with me if he were in heaven. Almost immediately, I felt this great joy.

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him forever!
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2013, 10:26:49 PM »

I am glad I am no longer a Protestant.  The knowledge those who have passed on are actively praying for us has brought a lot of comfort to me I never had as a Protestant.
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2013, 03:38:25 AM »

I remember reading several protestants on an internet forum talking about how intercession of the saints is useless because no one in heaven cares about us. They will be too busy worshiping God and happy to be off earth. One even commented, "once I'm dead, I couldn't care less how bad everything is on earth!"

It kind of saddened me that someone could think that our loved ones, the saints, or anyone else wouldn't care about us enough to pray for our conversion or pray for us in general. Can the Protestants here tell me why this is, or if you agree or disagree? Other members can also post too, if they wish.

Personally, I don't agree with their line of reasoning. I've heard it before, but I've never understood it. Clearly the Angles in Heaven know what's happening here, and get involved in the lives of people on earth, so why can't those who now rest in the Lord?

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it is too presumptive of things that cannot be known to us without personal experiance. If you reject the belief that it's OK to pray to the Saints because, say, you can't find an example in the Bible, that doesn't mean that you should make the assumption that the Saints in Heaven absolutely do not get involved in our lives, either through their prayers or in other ways. The Bible doesn't give a grounds for that position. And even if, hypothetically, they have no involvement in our lives on Earth, that doesn't mean they aren't aware of what's happening with us. I've always at least felt that my father can see me in some way, and knows what's going on with me, whatever my personal feeling is worth.  
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2013, 04:27:58 AM »

The main problem with this that I find very unsettling and flawed is the notion that Heaven is some kind of country club where we don't have to toil or do anything at all. Heaven is about worshipping God; not about just merely having fun. Plus, they are assuming that the Saints do not enjoy praying for those who are living and helping them; it seems more to suggest that they themselves are selfish and wouldn't care. But to those who really love God, I imagine they would enjoy praying for the living.
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2013, 12:07:48 PM »

I've heard this plenty of times from Protestants,  the same people who tell their children they will be able to watch their favorite TV shows and play their favorite video games in heaven.  They have a poor understanding of what the Church is, that those who are in heaven are still active members.
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2013, 12:34:58 PM »

I have probably recounted this event before, but it applies here.

My mother passed away three and a half years before I set foot in an Orthodox church. Two days before she died, my daughter and her then boyfriend (now husband) visited her in hospital. As they were leaving my mother said to Chuck: "Now, you take care of them." At the time it seemed an odd thing to say. However, three weeks later, my daughter and Chuck had to come to us to say that they had just found out she was pregnant. It is clear to me now that my mother had her little toe (figuratively speaking, of course  Cheesy) in the next world and had knowledge of things that we didn't. It also shows me that she cared enough to say something. I have no doubt that she continues to pray for us. BTW, her very last words just a few hours before she died were to my daughter: "I'm going to see Jesus." So I have no difficulty believing and understanding that the saints in heaven are knowledgeable about us and intercede on our behalf.
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2013, 02:55:05 PM »

I've heard this plenty of times from Protestants,  the same people who tell their children they will be able to watch their favorite TV shows and play their favorite video games in heaven.  They have a poor understanding of what the Church is, that those who are in heaven are still active members.

haha! Or that there will be rock and roll stages in heaven. Okay, well, granted, that's mostly hipster evangelicals, but still.
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2013, 05:00:56 PM »

I've heard this plenty of times from Protestants,  the same people who tell their children they will be able to watch their favorite TV shows and play their favorite video games in heaven.  They have a poor understanding of what the Church is, that those who are in heaven are still active members.

Perhaps I am wrong in doing this, but I have 6 young boys, all 10 and under, and when I talk about heaven, I try to excite them by asking what they would like to see and do in heaven. 

For instance, there may be a big purple, polka-dotted flying hippopotamus that they can fly around heaven (this is heaven to a 3 year old).  The older children think of huge planets with roller coasters as high as mountains which they can ride with their departed grandparents and great-grandparents and friends. 

And then I say "There very well may not be these things.  But if not, whatever there is will be so much better, since St. Paul says that eye hasn't seen nor ear heard what God has in store for those who love Him."

I started this when I realized that many people thought of heaven as boring.  Which is inexplicable to me, but there it is.  I didn't want to limit my sons' imaginations; perhaps, like St. Thomas Aquinas says, we will just sit and passively contemplate the Beatific Vision forever, but I will freely admit that that doesn't *sound* like Heaven to me, even if I know that, if it's true, it would be peace and happiness beyond anything on earth.

So while roller coasters and flying hippos are a poor analogy, they're the best I have with which to share with small children.
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2013, 07:07:13 PM »

Here is my take (as someone who still attends and is involved with a Protestant church) . . .

I remember reading several protestants on an internet forum talking about how intercession of the saints is useless because no one in heaven cares about us. They will be too busy worshiping God and happy to be off earth. One even commented, "once I'm dead, I couldn't care less how bad everything is on earth!"

What this sounds like is a flippant dismissal (perhaps with a touch of contempt) of what the Protestant has already decided is unscriptural and warrantless practice.

Orthodox need to understand that for most Protestants they don't feel like they need to EVEN THINK about the possible validity of the intercession of the saints (you can add the Theotokos, Real Presence, icons, etc to the list) In the Protestant mind, this issue is settled business not worth getting in an argument about. The Protestant lives their Christian life in a certain mold they have been given that they have faith in.

A few Protestants, like myself, might have been led out of the "Protestant box" and be willing to examine these issues fairly and even sympathetically. This "leading out of the box" isn't likely to take place through an exchange on an Internet forum; although perhaps you can pray.
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2013, 08:25:44 PM »

Quote
What this sounds like is a flippant dismissal (perhaps with a touch of contempt) of what the Protestant has already decided is unscriptural and warrantless practice.

Please do not make assumptions that I am dismissing or showing contempt for anything. It was an honest question with no strings attached.
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2013, 08:32:58 PM »

Quote
What this sounds like is a flippant dismissal (perhaps with a touch of contempt) of what the Protestant has already decided is unscriptural and warrantless practice.

Please do not make assumptions that I am dismissing or showing contempt for anything. It was an honest question with no strings attached.

I was referring to the Protestant you quoted.
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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2013, 08:44:52 PM »

I see. Please forgive me for jumping to conclusions.  Undecided
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2013, 10:02:23 PM »

I've heard this plenty of times from Protestants,  the same people who tell their children they will be able to watch their favorite TV shows and play their favorite video games in heaven.  They have a poor understanding of what the Church is, that those who are in heaven are still active members.

Perhaps I am wrong in doing this, but I have 6 young boys, all 10 and under, and when I talk about heaven, I try to excite them by asking what they would like to see and do in heaven. 

For instance, there may be a big purple, polka-dotted flying hippopotamus that they can fly around heaven (this is heaven to a 3 year old).  The older children think of huge planets with roller coasters as high as mountains which they can ride with their departed grandparents and great-grandparents and friends. 

And then I say "There very well may not be these things.  But if not, whatever there is will be so much better, since St. Paul says that eye hasn't seen nor ear heard what God has in store for those who love Him."

I started this when I realized that many people thought of heaven as boring.  Which is inexplicable to me, but there it is.  I didn't want to limit my sons' imaginations; perhaps, like St. Thomas Aquinas says, we will just sit and passively contemplate the Beatific Vision forever, but I will freely admit that that doesn't *sound* like Heaven to me, even if I know that, if it's true, it would be peace and happiness beyond anything on earth.

So while roller coasters and flying hippos are a poor analogy, they're the best I have with which to share with small children.

Right on!
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2013, 03:33:01 AM »

When I was a kid, I used to imagine Heaven as being an open-24-hours-a-day buffet full of a never ending supply of my favorite foods. In retrospect, that's probably why I was obese...
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2013, 04:12:35 AM »

Even the sinful rich man in hell  cares about his family on earth. (Luke 16:27-28) Wink
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2013, 12:11:47 PM »

I've also heard that the dead simply don't have a means of knowing about us. Implying that there is no difference between a human in heaven and a human here, apart from sinfulness.
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2013, 12:54:24 PM »

Personally I find it disheartening to even imagine that those that have gone before us, including the saints and our own loved ones, would not care about us. Scripture teaches that the justified are in the hands of God. I think we all agree that includes being in eternal communion with God. Lord be with those that believe that the justified that have passed do not care about us. I fear that view of God – God's Kingdom –might be a detrimental one.

To my limited knowledge the subject matter itself is not something that is really focused upon by most Protestants. A darn shame I guess. With that said I have never heard it preached nor discussed that the dead do not care. I believe that terms like “mama’s lookin down upon me” is a fairly Protestant phrase though! Smiley I make the joke to suggest that the Protestants I know do believe the dead care, that we are in some type of communion at least, and that Angels are beside us even when it is too dark to see. I have heard it suggested that while the dead cannot return to us, perhaps it is possible that God permits angels to intercede on their behalf. Whether that has any credence or not surely those looking down upon us do care!

I will not speak for other denominations nor do I know how many Wesleyan Churches (Methodist, Nazarene, and Wesleyan Holiness Movements) still adhere to it, and again the Church I pray at doesn’t focus on it like we should, but Wesleyan theology includes communion with the saints and prayers for the dead. An important part of doctrine includes the belief that the kingdom of God consists of the living and those that have passed before us. “all who believe that the faithful, living and dead, are one Body in Christ.” I do not understand how part of the Body in spirit would not care about those still of flesh and blood. “’Thy Kingdom come’, manifestly concerns the saints in Paradise, as well as those upon earth.”

I will assume the groups that believe ‘the dead do not care’ are either solo-scriptura or primo-scriptura. I’m wondering what Scripture they are using to justify this belief. I have heard it suggested in Protestant Churches that when we are glorified we may not even be aware of (remember) the pains, trials, and hardships of the life we had here on earth. I think this is a bit speculative (?) and in my mind would not mean we are not aware of the living. As several of you have pointed out that seems almost selfish and I can’t imagine selfish existing in God’s Kingdom.

Well, theres two cents from one of your token Protestants you all are kind enough to let hang out here with ya!

Peace & Grace
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2013, 04:18:20 PM »

Even the sinful rich man in hell  cares about his family on earth. (Luke 16:27-28) Wink

Well, of course. Such a worldly man in the place of punishment is still going to have his worldly concerns. When one is united eternally with the font of all Love and Knowing, how could one possibly spare a second to care about what is going on down here on earth?
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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2013, 04:32:00 PM »

Personally I find it disheartening to even imagine that those that have gone before us, including the saints and our own loved ones, would not care about us.


The dawn is not distant, nor is the night starless; love is eternal.
 
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
  Smiley

I've also heard that the dead simply don't have a means of knowing about us. Implying that there is no difference between a human in heaven and a human here, apart from sinfulness.

well to that we will say , how did Abraham knew of the life of Lazarus and the rich man's life on earth? how did St.Peter knew what the husband and wife did in secret?

Acts 5:1-11 1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”

5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

9Peter said to her, “How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.




how about the prophet Elisha how did he know what Gehazi has done in secret?

2kings 5 :1-27

1Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the Lord had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy.a

2Now bands from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman’s wife. 3She said to her mistress, “If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy.”

4Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said. 5“By all means, go,” the king of Aram replied. “I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So Naaman left, taking with him ten talentsb of silver, six thousand shekelsc of gold and ten sets of clothing. 6The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy.”

7As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, “Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!”

8When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: “Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.” 9So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha’s house. 10Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, “Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.”

11But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. 12Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be cleansed?” So he turned and went off in a rage.

13Naaman’s servants went to him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!” 14So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.

15Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. Please accept now a gift from your servant.”

16The prophet answered, “As surely as the Lord lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused.

17“If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. 18But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.”

19“Go in peace,” Elisha said.

After Naaman had traveled some distance, 20Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said to himself, “My master was too easy on Naaman, this Aramean, by not accepting from him what he brought. As surely as the Lord lives, I will run after him and get something from him.”

21So Gehazi hurried after Naaman. When Naaman saw him running toward him, he got down from the chariot to meet him. “Is everything all right?” he asked.

22“Everything is all right,” Gehazi answered. “My master sent me to say, ‘Two young men from the company of the prophets have just come to me from the hill country of Ephraim. Please give them a talentd of silver and two sets of clothing.’”

23“By all means, take two talents,” said Naaman. He urged Gehazi to accept them, and then tied up the two talents of silver in two bags, with two sets of clothing. He gave them to two of his servants, and they carried them ahead of Gehazi. 24When Gehazi came to the hill, he took the things from the servants and put them away in the house. He sent the men away and they left. 25Then he went in and stood before his master Elisha.

“Where have you been, Gehazi?” Elisha asked.

“Your servant didn’t go anywhere,” Gehazi answered.

26But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to take money, or to accept clothes, olive groves, vineyards, flocks, herds, or menservants and maidservants? 27Naaman’s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever.” Then Gehazi went from Elisha’s presence and he was leprous, as white as snow.



when he spoke with Mosses the Lord calls himself the God of men who were centuries before the time of Mosses and Christ tells us why. Mark 12: 27 have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2013, 04:38:43 PM »

Even the sinful rich man in hell  cares about his family on earth. (Luke 16:27-28) Wink

Well, of course. Such a worldly man in the place of punishment is still going to have his worldly concerns. When one is united eternally with the font of all Love and Knowing, how could one possibly spare a second to care about what is going on down here on earth?

even the martyrs under the altar prayed for justice for their brethren. His presence is not oblivion or a cause to not caring over the state of the souls of others rather  the union with Him,makes the life of one sinner a concern for all and the return of one sinner a cause of  great rejoicing among the Saints.


Edit : I just want to say that the saints those in the flesh or not are very much engaged in the Father's business. 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 04:46:25 PM by Hiwot » Logged

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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2013, 06:16:33 PM »

Personally I find it disheartening to even imagine that those that have gone before us, including the saints and our own loved ones, would not care about us.


The dawn is not distant, nor is the night starless; love is eternal.
 
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
  Smiley

I've also heard that the dead simply don't have a means of knowing about us. Implying that there is no difference between a human in heaven and a human here, apart from sinfulness.

well to that we will say , how did Abraham knew of the life of Lazarus and the rich man's life on earth? how did St.Peter knew what the husband and wife did in secret?

...


how about the prophet Elisha how did he know what Gehazi has done in secret?

...

when he spoke with Mosses the Lord calls himself the God of men who were centuries before the time of Mosses and Christ tells us why. Mark 12: 27 have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
I do need to point out a problem with your references to St. Peter and the Prophet Elisha. They were both still alive on earth when they were blessed with the clairvoyant insights you cited. That's different from the dead having knowledge of our secrets because they "look down upon us" from heaven.
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2013, 06:24:21 PM »

Personally I find it disheartening to even imagine that those that have gone before us, including the saints and our own loved ones, would not care about us.


The dawn is not distant, nor is the night starless; love is eternal.
 
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
  Smiley

I've also heard that the dead simply don't have a means of knowing about us. Implying that there is no difference between a human in heaven and a human here, apart from sinfulness.

well to that we will say , how did Abraham knew of the life of Lazarus and the rich man's life on earth? how did St.Peter knew what the husband and wife did in secret?

...


how about the prophet Elisha how did he know what Gehazi has done in secret?

...

when he spoke with Mosses the Lord calls himself the God of men who were centuries before the time of Mosses and Christ tells us why. Mark 12: 27 have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
I do need to point out a problem with your references to St. Peter and the Prophet Elisha. They were both still alive on earth when they were blessed with the clairvoyant insights you cited. That's different from the dead having knowledge of our secrets because they "look down upon us" from heaven.

I understand peter and its good point, however I was addressing the means of knowledge of the hidden and one that exists apart from the human senses. The Holy Spirit is the One that unveils what is hidden from human senses. the Clairvoyant Saints, and those in heaven who knew of the life of others such as Abraham and those whom Christ refers to as those rejoicing in the return of the single sinner, they get their knowledge by the Spirit who reveals it all to them. it is not their human ears or sight that is the means of such knowledge but what the Holy Spirit allows.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2013, 06:32:25 PM »

Personally I find it disheartening to even imagine that those that have gone before us, including the saints and our own loved ones, would not care about us.


The dawn is not distant, nor is the night starless; love is eternal.
 
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
  Smiley

I've also heard that the dead simply don't have a means of knowing about us. Implying that there is no difference between a human in heaven and a human here, apart from sinfulness.

well to that we will say , how did Abraham knew of the life of Lazarus and the rich man's life on earth? how did St.Peter knew what the husband and wife did in secret?

...


how about the prophet Elisha how did he know what Gehazi has done in secret?

...

when he spoke with Mosses the Lord calls himself the God of men who were centuries before the time of Mosses and Christ tells us why. Mark 12: 27 have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
I do need to point out a problem with your references to St. Peter and the Prophet Elisha. They were both still alive on earth when they were blessed with the clairvoyant insights you cited. That's different from the dead having knowledge of our secrets because they "look down upon us" from heaven.

I understand peter and its good point, however I was addressing the means of knowledge of the hidden and one that exists apart from the human senses. The Holy Spirit is the One that unveils what is hidden from human senses. the Clairvoyant Saints, and those in heaven who knew of the life of others such as Abraham and those whom Christ refers to as those rejoicing in the return of the single sinner, they get their knowledge by the Spirit who reveals it all to them. it is not their human ears or sight that is the means of such knowledge but what the Holy Spirit allows.
OK, I see your point. Thanks for explaining it. Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2013, 06:41:12 PM »

Personally I find it disheartening to even imagine that those that have gone before us, including the saints and our own loved ones, would not care about us.


The dawn is not distant, nor is the night starless; love is eternal.
 
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
  Smiley

I've also heard that the dead simply don't have a means of knowing about us. Implying that there is no difference between a human in heaven and a human here, apart from sinfulness.

well to that we will say , how did Abraham knew of the life of Lazarus and the rich man's life on earth? how did St.Peter knew what the husband and wife did in secret?

...


how about the prophet Elisha how did he know what Gehazi has done in secret?

...

when he spoke with Mosses the Lord calls himself the God of men who were centuries before the time of Mosses and Christ tells us why. Mark 12: 27 have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
I do need to point out a problem with your references to St. Peter and the Prophet Elisha. They were both still alive on earth when they were blessed with the clairvoyant insights you cited. That's different from the dead having knowledge of our secrets because they "look down upon us" from heaven.

I understand peter and its good point, however I was addressing the means of knowledge of the hidden and one that exists apart from the human senses. The Holy Spirit is the One that unveils what is hidden from human senses. the Clairvoyant Saints, and those in heaven who knew of the life of others such as Abraham and those whom Christ refers to as those rejoicing in the return of the single sinner, they get their knowledge by the Spirit who reveals it all to them. it is not their human ears or sight that is the means of such knowledge but what the Holy Spirit allows.
OK, I see your point. Thanks for explaining it. Smiley
You are most welcome, Peter Smiley
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« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2013, 07:01:04 PM »

Why wouldn't the dead care about us? I mean if the Angels rejoice when one sinner repents why would the rest of Heaven (specifically the saints) not care about those of us left on Earth?
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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2013, 09:40:09 AM »

I understand peter and its good point, however I was addressing the means of knowledge of the hidden and one that exists apart from the human senses. The Holy Spirit is the One that unveils what is hidden from human senses. the Clairvoyant Saints, and those in heaven who knew of the life of others such as Abraham and those whom Christ refers to as those rejoicing in the return of the single sinner, they get their knowledge by the Spirit who reveals it all to them. it is not their human ears or sight that is the means of such knowledge but what the Holy Spirit allows.

A very good point. Smiley I do think, however, that the Protestants I have in mind would just reject that the Spirit reveals anything to them like that.
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