Author Topic: German chants  (Read 657 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,041
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
German chants
« on: March 07, 2013, 12:48:59 PM »
I found these examples of chants from Holy Trinity Monastery in Germany. 

http://www.orthodox.de/hoerbeispiele.php

I think they're  good.  :)
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline Dominika

  • Serbian/Polish
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,124
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Sth different than my heart belongs to
Re: German chants
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2013, 03:15:15 PM »
I found these examples of chants from Holy Trinity Monastery in Germany. 

http://www.orthodox.de/hoerbeispiele.php

I think they're  good.  :)

Although I don't like German language, I think these recordings are beautiful. They're very similar to some recordings I've once found in some Serbian Orthodox sources from Great Vespers and Matins. They're also a kind of byzantine, old Russian and gregorian chant. Maybe that's even the same choir. I would love to hear much more, but because I don't know German at all, I'm not able to do it.

I find very interesting especially the way of singing of Paschal troparion - the melody (particularly in the begining) is very similar to an old Roman Catholic hymn called "trop" (now it's longer), which is e.g very popular in Poland (among Roman Catholics of course) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzfJ2SKWCwk
In Hungarian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJVCrvx0UYA
And in German: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoqvUL9_WeE
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline Orthodox11

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,999
Re: German chants
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2013, 03:22:08 PM »
Although I don't like German language, I think these recordings are beautiful.

Ditto. Not a fan of German, but love the Valaamesque style.

Offline peacenprayer

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
  • ting ting ting
Re: German chants
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2013, 03:30:43 PM »
Ooooh wow I love this.
Chanter, Blacksmith, Tailor, Captain of the Guard. ...I made the last one up.

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: German chants
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2013, 03:43:12 PM »
Fr. Johannes, the Abbot of the Holy Trinity Monastery, is a professional musicologist and I think he became a monk on Mount Athos or he spent time there. He carefully adapted Byzantine chant to the German language and choral (Gregorian) tradition and came up with something quite original, as you can hear. They've also edited some Orthodox chant books in Western notation. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 03:44:52 PM by Romaios »

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,041
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
Re: German chants
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2013, 03:48:42 PM »
Although I don't like German language, I think these recordings are beautiful.

Ditto. Not a fan of German, but love the Valaamesque style.

My problem with german is that I think it sounds beautiful, but I have a really hard time learning it.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,041
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
Re: German chants
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2013, 03:51:02 PM »
Fr. Johannes, the Abbot of the Holy Trinity Monastery, is a professional musicologist and I think he became a monk on Mount Athos or he spent time there. He carefully adapted Byzantine chant to the German language and choral (Gregorian) tradition and came up with something quite original, as you can hear. They've also edited some Orthodox chant books in Western notation. 

I think I'm gonna tell this to my priest. He loves stuff like this.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,267
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
Re: German chants
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2013, 04:23:35 PM »
Fr. Johannes, the Abbot of the Holy Trinity Monastery, is a professional musicologist and I think he became a monk on Mount Athos or he spent time there. He carefully adapted Byzantine chant to the German language and choral (Gregorian) tradition and came up with something quite original, as you can hear. They've also edited some Orthodox chant books in Western notation. 

Interesting. Especially since it's (?) a Byzantine rite monastery. I wonder why he ended up using Gregorian tradition too.

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: German chants
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2013, 04:35:09 PM »
Fr. Johannes, the Abbot of the Holy Trinity Monastery, is a professional musicologist and I think he became a monk on Mount Athos or he spent time there. He carefully adapted Byzantine chant to the German language and choral (Gregorian) tradition and came up with something quite original, as you can hear. They've also edited some Orthodox chant books in Western notation. 

Interesting. Especially since it's (?) a Byzantine rite monastery. I wonder why he ended up using Gregorian tradition too.

Yes - they follow the Byzantine rite and are under Bulgarian jurisdiction IIRC. The German ”Choral” is the indigenous tradition (the Protestant reformers modeled their hymns on Gregorian or Late Medieval ones). I think Fr. Johannes studied Gregorian chant before he became Orthodox.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 04:36:00 PM by Romaios »

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,267
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
Re: German chants
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2013, 04:42:29 PM »
Yes - they follow the Byzantine rite and are under Bulgarian jurisdiction IIRC. The German ”Choral” is the indigenous tradition (the Protestant reformers modeled their hymns on Gregorian or Late Medieval ones). I think Fr. Johannes studied Gregorian chant before he became Orthodox.

WRO is the indigenous tradition.

Anyway, it does sound quite beautiful. Many years to the abbot!

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: German chants
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2013, 04:53:50 PM »
There's a lot about "German Choral chant" (Deutsche Choral) as Fr. Johannes calls it on their site, if you can read German:

http://www.orthodox.de/choral.php

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,267
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
Re: German chants
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2013, 04:58:16 PM »
http://www.orthodox.de/choral.php

I can't but I live in a Lutheran country and I have attended some lectures on development of Lutheran chorales.

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: German chants
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2013, 05:03:53 PM »
http://www.orthodox.de/choral.php

I can't but I live in a Lutheran country and I have attended some lectures on development of Lutheran chorales.

I think by "Deutsche Choral" Fr. Johannes understands his adaptation of Byzantine chant in German, not the Lutheran chorals. Modality (the eight tones) are very important to him. He says that initially Luther's hymns in German preserved the Gregorian tones, but these were soon ditched along with Latin chant. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 05:11:16 PM by Romaios »

Offline Christopher McAvoy

  • Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 450
    • St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary
Re: German chants
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2013, 04:11:20 PM »
Being someone who sings it everyday, I can confirm to you that this "Weihrauchpsalm Zur abendlichen Weihrauchdarbringung " IS a gregorian melody. The melody resembles the average antiphon that would come before a canticle or psalm.

In particular the melody reminds me vaguely of the Antiphon on Magnificat at II Vespers for Nativity of Our Lord "Hodie Christus Natus est" (Today the Christ is born).

"Psalm 28 Aus dem Morgengottesdienst (Orthros) " - I can not tell which form this (I'm going to guess valaam?), yet it is very similar to the tone that the Gospel is sung to in Gregorian chant, but not psalms or canticles that I know of.

The Morgenprokimenon and Polyeleon are more valaam sounding, however it appears there is whether conciously or accidently an attempt to blend some of the different styles together. Sometimes when one person sings another kind of chant they accidently carry that influence into another form (that always creates some controversy with purists).  

I suppose their blending of different styles or influences is successful so far. I am impressed.

I have never ever witnessed anyone doing this before in the Orthodox Church, a few western rite orthodox churches have probably tried to do this but usually not very successfully, past attempts tended to sound much more awkward than these monks results.


As Marcel Peres first noted in 1993 (Gradual of Eleanor of Brittany CD), Some of the late medieval faux bourdons and 2 or 3 part polyphony and harmony of the latin church sound very similar to sound of the harmony in the slavic churches. That is an area I am trying to focus more on and accumulate settings of, rather than only the monodic plainchant versions. (theres also techniques to learn to harmonize by yourself without notation)

Example: Rex Caeli. Organum paralelo modificado

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzlK7TnmyoE



« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 04:18:15 PM by Christopher McAvoy »
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot