Will ALL Christians ever become one? Thought?

[JamesR]

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"? As far as we can tell, they are not.

So, according to the Eastern Orthodox teaching,  the Oriental Orthodox are not Christians? 

I don't know enough about the situation between us and them to answer.

[JamesR]

Did the Fathers have an equally clear consensus understanding of what that means?

From the ones I've read, with the guidance of my Priest, it seems so.

How can followers of Christ outside the Church NOT be seen as Christian in any way?

Because they aren't following the real Christ, but the Christ of heresy--their own idol of what they believe Christ is like. We worship the Christ that the teachings of the Orthodox Church bear witness to. You reject those teachings, then you reject our Christ, and thus, reject the true Christ.

Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?

No, even worse. We treat them as someone who has a flawed view of Christ, and thus, even more work must be done for their salvation because we now have to heal their distorted views of Christ. A non-Christian is probably better, since they are a blank-slate when it comes to perceptions of Christ in most cases.

As far as we can tell, they are.

I prefer pessimism to optimism.

How are you able to presume that?

The Holy Spirit produces unity and adherence to the Church--1 Corinthians 1:10. Just as St. Paul submitted to the Church when he converted, opposed to forming his own Church and predicting the rapture on a billboard like many Protestants with no sense of direction do.

[PeterTheAleut]

Did the Fathers have an equally clear consensus understanding of what that means?

From the ones I've read, with the guidance of my Priest, it seems so.

Which Fathers have you read? BTW, I really don't care how your priest tells you to read these Fathers, for your priest could be wrong.

How can followers of Christ outside the Church NOT be seen as Christian in any way?

Because they aren't following the real Christ, but the Christ of heresy--their own idol of what they believe Christ is like. We worship the Christ that the teachings of the Orthodox Church bear witness to. You reject those teachings, then you reject our Christ, and thus, reject the true Christ.

But only those who know what we teach and consciously reject our teachings can be said to reject Christ. Those who have never heard of the Orthodox Church and follow Christ as best they know Him cannot be said to reject Him at all.

Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?

No, even worse. We treat them as someone who has a flawed view of Christ, and thus, even more work must be done for their salvation because we now have to heal their distorted views of Christ.

You can treat them any way you want, but I'm not going to join you, nor do I think many Orthodox will join you. So please don't presume to speak for all of us.

A non-Christian is probably better, since they are a blank-slate when it comes to perceptions of Christ in most cases.

So you believe that the Gospel of Christ has no power when it's not received and taught in its fullness, without any additional junk? What do you think of the Samaritan woman who was willing to eat of the crumbs that fell off the Master's table? Is it not better to receive even the crumbs of truth then to receive nothing at all?

As far as we can tell, they are.

I prefer pessimism to optimism.

That's your loss.

How are you able to presume that?

The Holy Spirit produces unity and adherence to the Church--1 Corinthians 1:10. Just as St. Paul submitted to the Church when he converted, opposed to forming his own Church and predicting the rapture on a billboard like many Protestants with no sense of direction do.

Can you blame the Protestants for starting their own churches, though? They've never even known that they've never had the fullness of the Gospel. Give them credit for being faithful to what little of the Gospel they've received, and I pray that God will do the same. You and I, however, have been given so much more. So what are we doing with what we've been given?

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Yes, eventually. If not in this life then in the next. We are all spokes in the wheel of the Church, directed toward Christ, the Author and the Center of the universe. So it is inevitable that all true Christians will be one. In fact, we already are one, but we just don't realize it or always act like it.



Selam

No we aren't and never will be. To be one is actually heretical. I am surprised this thread has gone this long. We are persons and like the Persons of the Trinity we are not and never will be one. Persons are never one. Human beings can be. But never persons.

Sorry. But this is a pagan hope that needs to be jettisoned.

Persons can commune. And to the degree any being is a person they are in communion with another person.

Communion isn't union although you can't with spell the former without the latter.

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. [St. John 17:22-23]

Of course Jesus probably wasn't as philologically advanced as you are. 



Selam

[Napoletani]

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.

It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

Did the Fathers have an equally clear consensus understanding of what that means?

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"?

How can followers of Christ outside the Church NOT be seen as Christian in any way? Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?

As far as we can tell, they are not.

As far as we can tell, they are.

If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them.

How are you able to presume that?

And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation.

This may be true.

Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?

Mormons and jeovah witnesses also talk about Christ in their assemblies and they are not christians.

You do realize that that has nothing to do with what I just said?

Do you realize it has everything to do with your comment "Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?" i was responding to?

I know you're responding to my comment, but based on what I mean to communicate, your response has nothing to do with what I just said. Must we treat the non-Orthodox as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies simply because they're not Orthodox?

And your question also applies to Mormons or JW, so my comment has everything to do with it.

[PeterTheAleut]

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.

It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

Did the Fathers have an equally clear consensus understanding of what that means?

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"?

How can followers of Christ outside the Church NOT be seen as Christian in any way? Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?

As far as we can tell, they are not.

As far as we can tell, they are.

If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them.

How are you able to presume that?

And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation.

This may be true.

Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?

Mormons and jeovah witnesses also talk about Christ in their assemblies and they are not christians.

You do realize that that has nothing to do with what I just said?

Do you realize it has everything to do with your comment "Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?" i was responding to?

I know you're responding to my comment, but based on what I mean to communicate, your response has nothing to do with what I just said. Must we treat the non-Orthodox as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies simply because they're not Orthodox?

And your question also applies to Mormons or JW, so my comment has everything to do with it.

Please try to understand what I'm trying to communicate and not what you wish my words to mean.

Let's look at my arguments this way: Must we act as if Orthodox Christianity is the only place where the name of Christ is proclaimed at all?

[stanley123]

As a proud Orthodox Christian, and a firm believer that what I believe in, and how, is the truest way, I'm saddened that we as Christians are divided. I respect every Christian as they are, but I can't help be really feeling a sense of disappointment when, though we believe in the core aspect of the religion (Christ/God, Theotokos, and Holy Spirit,) why must we have different ways of believing the same concept? Thoughts?

Getting back to the original question, will all Christians become one? I don't see it happening for all Christians. Episcopalians, for example, have women bishops and at least one same sex married bishop. So I don't see a union between EO and Episcopalians.  However, between OO and EO, I think it could occur. I am not so sure about EO and RC, as there are serious differences which would have to be resolved, such as the place of the papacy in a reunited Church. It is possible, but the RCC would have to re-evaluate its Vatican I teaching on the papacy and bring it in line to what was taught before 1054. And there is the question of the modern RC liturgy and whether these modern types of charismatic worship we have seen would be something that the Orthodox would accept. 

[Gunnarr]

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.

It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

Did the Fathers have an equally clear consensus understanding of what that means?

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"?

How can followers of Christ outside the Church NOT be seen as Christian in any way? Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?

As far as we can tell, they are not.

As far as we can tell, they are.

If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them.

How are you able to presume that?

And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation.

This may be true.

Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?

Mormons and jeovah witnesses also talk about Christ in their assemblies and they are not christians.

You do realize that that has nothing to do with what I just said?

Do you realize it has everything to do with your comment "Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?" i was responding to?

I know you're responding to my comment, but based on what I mean to communicate, your response has nothing to do with what I just said. Must we treat the non-Orthodox as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies simply because they're not Orthodox?

And your question also applies to Mormons or JW, so my comment has everything to do with it.

Please try to understand what I'm trying to communicate and not what you wish my words to mean.

Let's look at my arguments this way: Must we act as if Orthodox Christianity is the only place where the name of Christ is proclaimed at all?

Yes, because it is the truth. The Christ in the Mormon church, the Protestant churches, the Papist church, the various churches condemned in the councils is not the same Christ as the Orthodox Church.

Or else, perhaps the nicene creed is outdated when it proclaims "I believe in the ONE holy catholic and apostolic Church"

[Gunnarr]

And for the OP, assuming christian means all who claim to be christian, then no.

There is no chance not a single chance any church which has female bishops and priests will ever theoritically join the orthodox church. So that is quite a few churches already impossible to be in union with. No point in going much further explaining every single one...

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