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Author Topic: Will ALL Christians ever become one? Thought?  (Read 4471 times) Average Rating: 0
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hecma925
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« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2013, 07:16:06 AM »

Right before Vigil on Saturdays, all Orthodox should bang on Jehovah's Witnesses doors; ideally, they will be having dinner.  Then hand them the Watchtower magazines they gave you that morning to confuse them.  Tell them, "These are lies.  If you want Truth, follow me."  Then head to Vigil.

Better than bringing them to Vigil would be bringing the Vigil to them (cf. St John of San Francisco). 

It's no fair just alluding to the story. Tell it in full. Smiley

Yes, do tell!
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« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2013, 08:48:39 AM »

Right before Vigil on Saturdays, all Orthodox should bang on Jehovah's Witnesses doors; ideally, they will be having dinner.  Then hand them the Watchtower magazines they gave you that morning to confuse them.  Tell them, "These are lies.  If you want Truth, follow me."  Then head to Vigil.

Better than bringing them to Vigil would be bringing the Vigil to them (cf. St John of San Francisco). 

It's no fair just alluding to the story. Tell it in full. Smiley

Yes, do tell!

There are a couple of times where some Russians would hold a ball while a vigil was going on. After vigil, St. John would crash the party and walk around silently. Apparently, some men even hid under the tables. http://www.pravmir.com/the-veneration-of-st-john-of-shanghai-and-san-francisco-recollections-of-a-spiritual-son/
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hecma925
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« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2013, 10:17:05 AM »

What a great article!  I especially like this:

Quote
Vladyka realized that young people need some sort of amusement, but he was categorically against soccer.

and

Quote
The second time he was “at a ball,” Vladyka demanded a microphone and addressed a sermon to those present. I knew how upset he was with everything, but his speech was calm. The next morning an order was issued to the clergy that all who had been present at the ball the previous night could not take part in the Divine services that day, even if they were acolytes or singers.


I love St. John!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 10:17:31 AM by hecma925 » Logged

Peter J
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« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2013, 12:01:50 PM »

I don't have a problem with people believing the new liberal view, as innovative and unsubstantiated as it is. It's a valid opinion. I do have a problem with these people trying to set up their innovation as THE view to the exclusion of traditional ecclesiology - extra ecclesiam nulla salus, and feebly dismissing it as "absurd" and "from a different context."

That's fair. I guess I'm just unsure where your conception of the traditional ecclesiology is coming from. Do you really think someone like St Cyprian's writings can be applied to the current situation?

What I dismissed as absurd wasn't so much the view you're describing in and of itself -- I think it's absurd for anybody to make definitive statements about which professing "Christians" are "outside salvation," particularly when the vast majority of Orthodox tradition and its current leadership have insisted on willful agnosticism on the issue. I apologize for not communicating clearly enough, (and for being too harsh about it).

I think that St. Cyprian's maxim is true. I don't really understand what you mean by whether it can be "applied" to the situation at hand. I don't really see a difference between Protestants who deny the heart of the Christian faith - the sacraments - and groups from antiquity, besides that some Protestants are "born into it" (which was also true of some ancient heresies). Salvation is found only in the church, and Protestants are outside the church. The idea of being a Christian or being saved outside of the visible Orthodox Church would have been novel to the fathers. We call them "Christians" by convention and economy, not out of theological precision.

I can't agree that "the vast majority of Orthodox tradition and its current leadership have insisted on willful agnosticism on the issue." The majority of tradition that I've come across is definitely stricter than you would like to believer on who can be saved. I'm only really aware of St. Theophan saying otherwise. As for the opinion of bishops, what they teach has to be validated against tradition, not the other way around. And I don't know if the majority believe as you say they do, or if it's just the opinion of vocal figures like Metr. Ware.

This has been my understanding as well.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree. I'm actually, as a Protestant, quite happy that this is taken seriously. Roman Catholics don't seem to care, they just say 'we are all Christians' and ignore the differences, and their own Magisterium's theology. This has been my experience anyway.

I'm not entirely surprised that that has been your experience, but I'd like to assure you that not all Roman Catholics are like that.
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« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2013, 12:32:08 PM »

I dare say the ones that most people encounter or listen to are, given how common and well-founded that impression is. Sad
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« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2013, 04:02:49 PM »

I don't have a problem with people believing the new liberal view, as innovative and unsubstantiated as it is. It's a valid opinion. I do have a problem with these people trying to set up their innovation as THE view to the exclusion of traditional ecclesiology - extra ecclesiam nulla salus, and feebly dismissing it as "absurd" and "from a different context."

That's fair. I guess I'm just unsure where your conception of the traditional ecclesiology is coming from. Do you really think someone like St Cyprian's writings can be applied to the current situation?

What I dismissed as absurd wasn't so much the view you're describing in and of itself -- I think it's absurd for anybody to make definitive statements about which professing "Christians" are "outside salvation," particularly when the vast majority of Orthodox tradition and its current leadership have insisted on willful agnosticism on the issue. I apologize for not communicating clearly enough, (and for being too harsh about it).

I think that St. Cyprian's maxim is true. I don't really understand what you mean by whether it can be "applied" to the situation at hand. I don't really see a difference between Protestants who deny the heart of the Christian faith - the sacraments - and groups from antiquity, besides that some Protestants are "born into it" (which was also true of some ancient heresies). Salvation is found only in the church, and Protestants are outside the church. The idea of being a Christian or being saved outside of the visible Orthodox Church would have been novel to the fathers. We call them "Christians" by convention and economy, not out of theological precision.

I can't agree that "the vast majority of Orthodox tradition and its current leadership have insisted on willful agnosticism on the issue." The majority of tradition that I've come across is definitely stricter than you would like to believer on who can be saved. I'm only really aware of St. Theophan saying otherwise. As for the opinion of bishops, what they teach has to be validated against tradition, not the other way around. And I don't know if the majority believe as you say they do, or if it's just the opinion of vocal figures like Metr. Ware.

This has been my understanding as well.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree. I'm actually, as a Protestant, quite happy that this is taken seriously. Roman Catholics don't seem to care, they just say 'we are all Christians' and ignore the differences, and their own Magisterium's theology. This has been my experience anyway.

I'm not entirely surprised that that has been your experience, but I'd like to assure you that not all Roman Catholics are like that.
Has not been my experience at all. For my Catholic friends, either Roman or Byzantine, the differences between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are real and important. Though, I suspect that we have a shorter list of what constitutes a real difference than do the Eastern Orthodox.
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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