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Author Topic: Will ALL Christians ever become one? Thought?  (Read 4681 times) Average Rating: 0
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Faith2545
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« on: March 06, 2013, 07:38:18 PM »

As a proud Orthodox Christian, and a firm believer that what I believe in, and how, is the truest way, I'm saddened that we as Christians are divided. I respect every Christian as they are, but I can't help be really feeling a sense of disappointment when, though we believe in the core aspect of the religion (Christ/God, Theotokos, and Holy Spirit,) why must we have different ways of believing the same concept? Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2013, 08:01:03 PM »

With God nothing is impossible.
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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2013, 08:25:16 PM »

Improbable, but not impossible.
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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2013, 08:26:03 PM »

I'm not sure that it is the case that we just have different ways of believing in the same core concepts (ask a low-church Protestant/Evangelical what they believe about the Theotokos...), but yes, with God nothing is impossible. More and more non-Orthodox come into Orthodoxy every day, even though it seems that the days of whole populations/countries/territories converting are probably over. Don't give up!
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2013, 06:01:15 AM »

I would also say it is Improbably and highly unlikely but unity, even in small ways, is something I think all Christians should strive for. This is one of my problems when thinking of becoming Orthodox myself, or even, on some days, calling myself a Christian at all. I do agree with you that the majority of Churches have very main, and commonality with each other as far as Theology goes, there are of course major differences, and just like any family we have to work through our differences and problems which takes time.

Having said all that, I think that wanting all Christians to be able to participate fully with each other is a desire of God, and because we are made in His image it is only right that many of us should also have that desire. I would pray and ask guidance from the saints, the Holy Theotokos, and our Lord Christ Jesus for how to rightly, and best to go about becoming more unified and how we should fulfill God's desires in our own lives first before looking towards unifying everyone else...I hope that makes sense. May Peace be bestowed upon you.
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2013, 10:16:50 AM »

Christians have never been one, since New Testament times, so...
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2013, 12:24:22 PM »

Christians have never been one, since New Testament times, so...
My thoughts exactly.
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2013, 02:49:17 PM »

I wish it would. It never will, because of politics.
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2013, 07:51:14 PM »

 I've always felt that it's a possibility. But only by divine act.

 But, who knows? We could already be united. If we've been wrong, and the bare minimum of Christianity is the Nicene Creed, then we are already a Catholic Church.

 But this is speculation, and probably a pretty unorthodox perspective as well.
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2013, 08:05:54 PM »

After the Second Coming.
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2013, 08:13:13 PM »

After the Second Coming.
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 12:39:33 AM »

Under the Antichrist.  But then they will not really be Christians anymore.
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 03:29:12 AM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 04:19:20 AM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2013, 06:59:02 AM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

You assume the dying Roman Catholic is a Christian, if infact all Christians are already one and nobody outside the oneness is a Christian the Orthodox would have no need to view the Catholic, outside the oneness, as a Christian. On the other hand If the Catholic viewed himself as in the oneness then he would indeed not desire the Orthodox who is outside of the oneness and not a Christian to administer to him. If indeed all Christians are one in the strictest sense then there are a lot of people in trouble!!!
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2013, 11:36:19 AM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

If your convictions only matter up to a certain point, they never really mattered to begin with.
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 09:33:20 PM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church. That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"? As far as we can tell, they are not. If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them. And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation. Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2013, 09:39:33 PM »

But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?
Roman Catholics recognise the Sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Church as valid.
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2013, 09:43:45 PM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church. That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"? As far as we can tell, they are not. If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them. And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation. Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?
If the Christians are united in the Orthodox Church, why do you have some Orthodox who find a theological basis for following the Julian calendar, whereas others do not. Doesn't this mean that the union of Orthodox is political and not theological?
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« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2013, 09:54:32 PM »

But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?
Roman Catholics recognise the Sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Church as valid.

Another fact which bears witness to the inconsistency and lack of faith they have in their own heretical belief system.

"Now I plead with you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."-I Corinthians 1:10

"But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."- II Thessalonians 3:6

St. Paul makes it very clear that true unity means unity in the same mind and judgment, that God's Church is united. Both the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches have different views--different minds and judgments, therefore, logically both of them can't be true but only one can. Therefore, how can the Sacraments from both Churches possibly be valid? Only one Church is correct--and it ain't Rome.

If the Christians are united in the Orthodox Church, why do you have some Orthodox who find a theological basis for following the Julian calendar, whereas others do not. Doesn't this mean that the union of Orthodox is political and not theological?

No, it means two things. Firstly, there are those who--while they choose to use a different calendar--do so only canonically through the Church and stay in communion with the Church, not pushing a heretical agenda. Then there are those who choose to follow the old calendar through a violation of the canons, push a heretical agenda and separate themselves from the Church. The first are wholly Orthodox, whereas the second are heretics who are NOT a part of the Church.
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2013, 10:24:11 PM »

But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?
Roman Catholics recognise the Sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Church as valid.

Another fact which bears witness to the inconsistency and lack of faith they have in their own heretical belief system.

"Now I plead with you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."-I Corinthians 1:10

"But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."- II Thessalonians 3:6

St. Paul makes it very clear that true unity means unity in the same mind and judgment, that God's Church is united. Both the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches have different views--different minds and judgments, therefore, logically both of them can't be true but only one can. Therefore, how can the Sacraments from both Churches possibly be valid? Only one Church is correct--and it ain't Rome.

If the Christians are united in the Orthodox Church, why do you have some Orthodox who find a theological basis for following the Julian calendar, whereas others do not. Doesn't this mean that the union of Orthodox is political and not theological?

No, it means two things. Firstly, there are those who--while they choose to use a different calendar--do so only canonically through the Church and stay in communion with the Church, not pushing a heretical agenda. Then there are those who choose to follow the old calendar through a violation of the canons, push a heretical agenda and separate themselves from the Church. The first are wholly Orthodox, whereas the second are heretics who are NOT a part of the Church.
Are Orthodox united on the issue of artificial birth control within marriage? Or on the requirement that women wear headcovering while praying in Church?
"But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."- II Thessalonians 3:6 Is it true that a while back the tradition in the Orthodox Church  was that ABC was wrong, and that women are to wear headcovering in Church. Why did they change these traditional teachings, or did they? Is there perfect united belief on these questions?
 
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2013, 04:51:30 AM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

If your convictions only matter up to a certain point, they never really mattered to begin with.

Just woke the neighbors up with my eye rolling.
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2013, 05:34:28 AM »

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Will ALL Christians ever become one?


When we gather in the afterlife.
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2013, 10:41:43 PM »

As a proud Orthodox Christian, and a firm believer that what I believe in, and how, is the truest way, I'm saddened that we as Christians are divided. I respect every Christian as they are, but I can't help be really feeling a sense of disappointment when, though we believe in the core aspect of the religion (Christ/God, Theotokos, and Holy Spirit,) why must we have different ways of believing the same concept? Thoughts?

I'm saddened you don't realise that as an Orthodox Christian that we are The Christian Church.  By acknowledging that other churches are the "christian church" you are accepting their false teachings as truth.  The goal of every Christian in the (Orthodox) Christian Church is to bring those who have a sense of Christ and His Sacraments but do not fully participate in them to the Truth that exists in the (Orthodox) Christian Church.
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2013, 10:44:05 PM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church. That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"? As far as we can tell, they are not. If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them. And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation. Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?
If the Christians are united in the Orthodox Church, why do you have some Orthodox who find a theological basis for following the Julian calendar, whereas others do not. Doesn't this mean that the union of Orthodox is political and not theological?

What unites (Orthodox) Christian Churches is the Sacraments and the Deposit of Faith. Waiver from the Deposit of Faith and you are no longer in communion.  Show me where Christ inserted the calender issue into the Deposit of Faith and then the strawman argument has validity.
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2013, 02:58:25 AM »

Calendar OT was moved to the proper thread.
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2013, 03:35:05 AM »

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"? As far as we can tell, they are not.
So, according to the Eastern Orthodox teaching,  the Oriental Orthodox are not Christians? 
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2013, 11:31:30 AM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church.
Did the Fathers have an equally clear consensus understanding of what that means?

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"?
How can followers of Christ outside the Church NOT be seen as Christian in any way? Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?

As far as we can tell, they are not.
As far as we can tell, they are.

If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them.
How are you able to presume that?

And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation.
This may be true.

Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?
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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2013, 11:32:22 AM »

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"? As far as we can tell, they are not.
So, according to the Eastern Orthodox teaching,  the Oriental Orthodox are not Christians?  
No, according to JamesR, the Oriental Orthodox are not Christians.
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2013, 12:55:57 PM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

If your convictions only matter up to a certain point, they never really mattered to begin with.

Just woke the neighbors up with my eye rolling.

Might wanna get that checked out.
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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2013, 01:58:15 PM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

If your convictions only matter up to a certain point, they never really mattered to begin with.

Just woke the neighbors up with my eye rolling.

You are cycloptic?
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« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2013, 05:02:21 AM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church.
Did the Fathers have an equally clear consensus understanding of what that means?

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"?
How can followers of Christ outside the Church NOT be seen as Christian in any way? Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?

As far as we can tell, they are not.
As far as we can tell, they are.

If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them.
How are you able to presume that?

And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation.
This may be true.

Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?

Mormons and jeovah witnesses also talk about Christ in their assemblies and they are not christians.
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« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2013, 05:05:05 AM »

But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?
Roman Catholics recognise the Sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Church as valid.

Another fact which bears witness to the inconsistency and lack of faith they have in their own heretical belief system.

"Now I plead with you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."-I Corinthians 1:10

"But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."- II Thessalonians 3:6

St. Paul makes it very clear that true unity means unity in the same mind and judgment, that God's Church is united. Both the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches have different views--different minds and judgments, therefore, logically both of them can't be true but only one can. Therefore, how can the Sacraments from both Churches possibly be valid? Only one Church is correct--and it ain't Rome.

If the Christians are united in the Orthodox Church, why do you have some Orthodox who find a theological basis for following the Julian calendar, whereas others do not. Doesn't this mean that the union of Orthodox is political and not theological?

No, it means two things. Firstly, there are those who--while they choose to use a different calendar--do so only canonically through the Church and stay in communion with the Church, not pushing a heretical agenda. Then there are those who choose to follow the old calendar through a violation of the canons, push a heretical agenda and separate themselves from the Church. The first are wholly Orthodox, whereas the second are heretics who are NOT a part of the Church.
Are Orthodox united on the issue of artificial birth control within marriage? Or on the requirement that women wear headcovering while praying in Church?
"But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."- II Thessalonians 3:6 Is it true that a while back the tradition in the Orthodox Church  was that ABC was wrong, and that women are to wear headcovering in Church. Why did they change these traditional teachings, or did they? Is there perfect united belief on these questions?
 

Can you show us the changes in question? Why are you confusing praxis with belief and faith? We also don't have perfect unity on the level of taxes in a State, on the best color of clothes, and we do not have unity on which Country has the best food. Happy?
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« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2013, 05:50:17 PM »

But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?
Roman Catholics recognise the Sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Church as valid.

Another fact which bears witness to the inconsistency and lack of faith they have in their own heretical belief system.

"Now I plead with you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."-I Corinthians 1:10

"But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."- II Thessalonians 3:6

St. Paul makes it very clear that true unity means unity in the same mind and judgment, that God's Church is united. Both the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches have different views--different minds and judgments, therefore, logically both of them can't be true but only one can. Therefore, how can the Sacraments from both Churches possibly be valid? Only one Church is correct--and it ain't Rome.

If the Christians are united in the Orthodox Church, why do you have some Orthodox who find a theological basis for following the Julian calendar, whereas others do not. Doesn't this mean that the union of Orthodox is political and not theological?

No, it means two things. Firstly, there are those who--while they choose to use a different calendar--do so only canonically through the Church and stay in communion with the Church, not pushing a heretical agenda. Then there are those who choose to follow the old calendar through a violation of the canons, push a heretical agenda and separate themselves from the Church. The first are wholly Orthodox, whereas the second are heretics who are NOT a part of the Church.
Are Orthodox united on the issue of artificial birth control within marriage? Or on the requirement that women wear headcovering while praying in Church?
"But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."- II Thessalonians 3:6 Is it true that a while back the tradition in the Orthodox Church  was that ABC was wrong, and that women are to wear headcovering in Church. Why did they change these traditional teachings, or did they? Is there perfect united belief on these questions?
 

Can you show us the changes in question? Why are you confusing praxis with belief and faith? We also don't have perfect unity on the level of taxes in a State, on the best color of clothes, and we do not have unity on which Country has the best food. Happy?
The tradition of the Church for aolmost two thousand years was that women were to wear headcovering while praying in Church. And a poster here has observed that it is still the tradition in Russia. But in America, the tradition has been abandoned in many places. So what are we to think about the quotation given by JamesR: "But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."- II Thessalonians 3:6
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« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2013, 07:36:15 PM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church.
Did the Fathers have an equally clear consensus understanding of what that means?

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"?
How can followers of Christ outside the Church NOT be seen as Christian in any way? Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?

As far as we can tell, they are not.
As far as we can tell, they are.

If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them.
How are you able to presume that?

And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation.
This may be true.

Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?

Mormons and jeovah witnesses also talk about Christ in their assemblies and they are not christians.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with what I just said?
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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2013, 01:12:54 AM »

Under the Antichrist.  But then they will not really be Christians anymore.
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« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2013, 04:55:45 AM »

Yes, eventually. If not in this life then in the next. We are all spokes in the wheel of the Church, directed toward Christ, the Author and the Center of the universe. So it is inevitable that all true Christians will be one. In fact, we already are one, but we just don't realize it or always act like it.



Selam
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« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2013, 08:55:28 AM »

Yes, eventually. If not in this life then in the next. We are all spokes in the wheel of the Church, directed toward Christ, the Author and the Center of the universe. So it is inevitable that all true Christians will be one. In fact, we already are one, but we just don't realize it or always act like it.



Selam

No we aren't and never will be. To be one is actually heretical. I am surprised this thread has gone this long. We are persons and like the Persons of the Trinity we are not and never will be one. Persons are never one. Human beings can be. But never persons.

Sorry. But this is a pagan hope that needs to be jettisoned.

Persons can commune. And to the degree any being is a person they are in communion with another person.

Communion isn't union although you can't with spell the former without the latter.
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« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2013, 09:01:40 AM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church.
Did the Fathers have an equally clear consensus understanding of what that means?

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"?
How can followers of Christ outside the Church NOT be seen as Christian in any way? Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?

As far as we can tell, they are not.
As far as we can tell, they are.

If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them.
How are you able to presume that?

And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation.
This may be true.

Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?

Mormons and jeovah witnesses also talk about Christ in their assemblies and they are not christians.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with what I just said?

Do you realize it has everything to do with your comment "Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?" i was responding to?
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« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2013, 09:08:40 AM »

Yes, eventually. If not in this life then in the next. We are all spokes in the wheel of the Church, directed toward Christ, the Author and the Center of the universe. So it is inevitable that all true Christians will be one. In fact, we already are one, but we just don't realize it or always act like it.



Selam

No we aren't and never will be. To be one is actually heretical. I am surprised this thread has gone this long. We are persons and like the Persons of the Trinity we are not and never will be one. Persons are never one. Human beings can be. But never persons.

Sorry. But this is a pagan hope that needs to be jettisoned.

Persons can commune. And to the degree any being is a person they are in communion with another person.

Communion isn't union although you can't with spell the former without the latter.
You lost me...

Did not Christ say, "make them one just as We are one?"
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« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2013, 09:26:06 AM »

All Christians will merge into one giant cyber-organism.
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« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2013, 09:59:29 AM »

All Christians will merge into one giant cyber-organism.

You and Iconodule must promise to post once a day.

Please.
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« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2013, 10:06:43 AM »

All Christians will merge into one giant cyber-organism.

So THAT'S what the Borg were are will be! Cheesy
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« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2013, 01:12:04 PM »

Assuming that there are "other" Christians...All Christians already are one.
It's difficult for me to believe that all Christians already are one as you say. Suppose for example, that a Roman Catholic was in an Orthodox country such as Russia and he was hit by a car and he was dying. Would an Orthodox priest hear his confession and give him Sacramental absolution and the last rites, or would he let him drop dead without the benefit of the Last Sacraments? If Christians were already one, as you claim, wouldn't the Orthodox priest administer the last rites to the dying non-Orthodox Christian man?

The problem is that you are asserting that the Roman Catholic is already a "Christian"--when in reality, the Fathers are very clear that there is no salvation outside of the Church.
Did the Fathers have an equally clear consensus understanding of what that means?

That being said, how could those outside of the Church possibly be seen as "Christians"?
How can followers of Christ outside the Church NOT be seen as Christian in any way? Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?

As far as we can tell, they are not.
As far as we can tell, they are.

If they were, then they would submit to the Church--provided it was available to them.
How are you able to presume that?

And administering the Sacraments to them when they do not belong to the Church would be to their condemnation, not to their salvation.
This may be true.

Now, if that Roman Catholic wanted to convert last minute on his deathbed, then that's different. But ask yourself, why would a devout Roman Catholic want the Orthodox Sacraments if he weren't willing to convert?

Mormons and jeovah witnesses also talk about Christ in their assemblies and they are not christians.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with what I just said?

Do you realize it has everything to do with your comment "Must we treat them as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies?" i was responding to?
I know you're responding to my comment, but based on what I mean to communicate, your response has nothing to do with what I just said. Must we treat the non-Orthodox as though the name of Christ had never been professed at all in their assemblies simply because they're not Orthodox?
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« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2013, 03:55:05 PM »

By themselves? No. Only when God comes I think that will be.
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