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coptic orthodox boy
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« on: January 15, 2005, 11:01:08 PM »

IC XC NIKA
Hello,
I am sure this has been brought up many times before, but I was wondering, could someone explain the Orthodox understanding of St.  Paul's "condemnation" of men having long hair, as well as having a head covering (not that I wear a head cover in church, but I do wear caps to keep my hair back).  Most monks wear long hair (I think most Ethiopian monks don't however), and usually some form of a monastic cap or schema, and I myself haven't had a haircut in about 2 1/2 years, so my hair is rather long (though, haha, I do keep it under control Grin).  Thanks in advance to all who will enlighten me.
With all love and peace.
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ania
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2005, 11:45:00 AM »

Shot in the dark, but I think it might have something to do with men back in St. Paul's day for the most part had short hair.  There has been much speculation of icons of Christ with long hair are actually inacurate.  (If Christ had long hair, I would highly doubt St. Paul would have bashed it.) Men with long hair might have been considered slovenly. 
As far as the headcovering, I have no idea. 
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2005, 01:44:58 PM »

With regard to Christ's hair being long, while most other men's hair was short, is it possible that Christ took something like a Nazirite vow? 
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SaintShenouti
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2005, 07:08:47 PM »

As I understand it, long hair on a man would symbolize his sanctification, or dedication, to the service.  In the case of our Lord, His hair long hair would be viewed as a symbol of his dedicated service toward man.  For a monk, particularly Coptic monks, the long hair comes with the vow in dedicating their lives to God.  Many a holy men had long hair, and can be viewed either a symbol of dedication, or as a means of rejecting the vanity and cares of the world, which is monastic.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2005, 12:30:21 PM by SaintShenouti » Logged
prodromos
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2005, 05:45:04 AM »

The word "koma", translated as "long hair" in 1 Cor 11:14 has more to do with styling of the hair than length. Paul is not condemning long hair on men, but men who dress up their hair like women do. Reading the verse as condemning long hair on men would put Saint Paul at odds with such people as Samson or Samuel, or with what the Lord spoke to Moses in Numbers 6:1-5.

I think a better translation of the word would be "hairdo", but it does sound a bit odd, almost comical, for scripture.

John
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Arystarcus
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2005, 01:59:45 AM »

CopticOrthodoxBoy,

As long as we are talking about hair, I couldn't help but notice your avatar and I am assuming that is you and I wanted to tell you that you have a smashing beard.  Grin I do wish I could grow a beard, but my genes do not permit me to attempt it. So I thought I'd pass on a compliment to you on yours and let you know how jealous I am.  Wink  Cheesy

In Christ,
Aaron
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coptic orthodox boy
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2005, 03:18:59 PM »

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Haha, no Arystarcus, that isn't me. That is Abouna Saaman St. Anthony, he is a monk-priest that helps run a parish in the U.K. The reason I used his picture, though, is I thought his beard was awesome as well. You are the second person to ask, I think I am going to change the caption underneath.

Prodromos, thanks for the Greek lesson. I have a Catholic friend with long hair, and a pretty long beard, and I think he said the same thing, except not as clear.

copticorthodoxboy
« Last Edit: January 19, 2005, 03:21:50 PM by coptic orthodox boy » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2005, 03:27:09 PM »

I do wish I could grow a beard, but my genes do not permit me to attempt it.

I feel for you, my brother.  The best I can manage is a decent bit of hair on my chin, but the rest of it, especially the cheeks, is patchy at best, with the exception of my jawline.

In fact, the facial hair in my avatar is about as good as it gets.  How I wish I could grow a massive beard!
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2005, 04:00:20 PM »

There is also the question of what counts as long.  If men grew their hair long, it probably reached down to their shoulders and a little more at times.  But the women of the day would grow what certainly could be termed long hair - down to the waist and beyond.  By comparison, Christ's style would qualify as 'short'.

As for Samson, the only more believable film I've seen on his story depicts him with hair beyond his waist.

In IC XC
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Arystarcus
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2005, 07:25:35 PM »

Quote
Haha, no Arystarcus, that isn't me.  That is Abouna Saaman St. Anthony, he is a monk-priest that helps run a parish in the U.K. The reason I used his picture, though, is I thought his beard was awesome as well.

Thanks for the clarification and I am glad to know that I'm not the only one who thinks Abouna has a praiseworthy beard.  Cheesy

Quote
In fact, the facial hair in my avatar is about as good as it gets.

I feel for you as well, it's a real shame - isn't it?  :'(

btw, was that avatar pic of you taken when you were hell screamin' and cussin'?   Wink  Grin

Quote
How I wish I could grow a massive beard!

I'd like to think I would look good in a ZZ Top or Oak Ridge Boys style beard.  Wink

In Christ,
Aaron
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coptic orthodox boy
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2005, 11:34:07 PM »

IC XC NIKA
I'm part of the beardless-wish-I-could-grow-a-beard-group, but I am only 19. 
copticorthodoxboy
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SaintShenouti
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2005, 01:12:25 PM »

Heheh, I'm only a year older than you, and I'm using Mach 3 Turbos Afro.  Believe me bro, it's not all strawberries and cream.  I guess if you want a beard, just make sure everything connects, and there are no patches or islands of hair before you fully grow out.  Oh, and you can never use enough shaving cream... Grin
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2005, 12:49:16 PM »

One of the reasons I could never marry a priest... stubble & 5 o'clock shadow, sexy (I'll even allow a well trimed jaw hugging beard), full out ZZ Top beard, yuck.
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2005, 03:28:42 PM »

... stubble & 5 o'clock shadow, sexy

That's what my wife thinks as well. I actually shave my entire head (except for goatee) but now only twice a week so I have the "stubble" more days than not. Smiley
(However, I did have to let the goatee get a little scraggly when I played Herr Drosselmeyer in my wife's production of THE NUTCRACKER last month)
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Elisha
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2005, 03:39:58 PM »



That's what my wife thinks as well.  I actually shave my entire head (except for goatee) but now only twice a week so I have the "stubble" more days than not. Smiley
(However, I did have to let the goatee get a little scraggly when I played Herr Drosselmeyer in my wife's production of THE NUTCRACKER last month)

This guy at my work who is such a metro(sexual) type, says the 'strategy' is to shave when you get home in the evening so that you can already have shadow/stubble when you go to work to pick up on the chicks there.  His pretentiousness is funny.  He's friendly and not too cocky though, so it's more amusing than something to scoff at.
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2005, 09:30:01 PM »

Back to the question of hair in biblical Palestine.

The comment about "Long hair" meaning hair styled after the ladies mode of dress sounds right to me. In the Greco-Roman world I believe the standard for men was short short short. Look at the representations Emperors and others in sculpture, mosaics and coinage. All quite short. Roman soldiers kept short hair, in contrast to the flowing locks of the germanic barbarians, as a matter of cleanliness, just as soldiers do today. Closely cropped hair affords no purchase for your enemy in close combat, also.

But, the occupied Jewish nation retained its ethnic and religious identity under Roman rule. There were all kinds of people in Palestine with varying degrees of "Helenization". Some wore their hair in the style of their masters, and many probably did not. If there was any tradition of the "orthodox" Jew of the day wearing his hair long then probably Jesus did have long hair as represented in the Icons. It doesnt seem likely that Rabbi Jesus would have adopted Roman fashion.
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prodromos
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2005, 07:41:03 AM »

One of the reasons I could never marry a priest... stubble & 5 o'clock shadow, sexy (I'll even allow a well trimed jaw hugging beard), full out ZZ Top beard, yuck.

Of course the main reason is the fact that priests cannot get married Wink
(watcha gonna do if the guy you do marry gets a calling to the priesthood later on?)
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aurelia
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2005, 09:07:20 AM »



Of course the main reason is the fact that priests cannot get married Wink
(watcha gonna do if the guy you do marry gets a calling to the priesthood later on?)

I have to say LOL!  In answer to that question, just hope you are gonna be a good priest's wife!  *an aside i like a nicely trimmed goatee, even a 9 am stubble --i have known people ot get those!--but if you are going to have a full beard, take care of it!  like Santa. Smiley *
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2005, 12:51:01 PM »

Uggg, I don't want to be a 5th generation priest's wife, but if I fall for a guy who's got the calling...  My mom didn't want to be a priest's wife either, then 29 years into the marriage to a happy-go-lucky deacon, boom, "Honey, I wanna be a priest."  Thankfully he's never tried to grow his beard out more than 3 or 4 inches... otherwise it grows to the left and looks... well, very funny.  His hair on the other hand is 1/2 way down his back, and his favorite shampoo... "Axios Man." http://www.healthandbeautydepot.com/nexxus-axios.htm
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2005, 01:40:37 PM »

Axios Man...how appropriate. 
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