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Author Topic: Greek Old Calendarism and Canonical Greek Orthodoxy in America  (Read 1874 times) Average Rating: 0
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Antonis
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« on: March 05, 2013, 10:41:53 PM »

Why are Old Calendarists in America so "up-to-date"? They have good media, beautiful traditional churches, traditional chant, and their congregation actually knows their faith. Meanwhile, canonical Orthodoxy in America, despite having far more funds and far more parishioners, struggles with all of these.

I have always noticed this and wondered. Why does our Church participate in events like the huge Coca Cola sponsored one? Why do its major churches cater to grandiose Western music and the like? Why is Philoptochos the only major Orthodox organization of the Church, the rest being Greek organizations? Why do our parishioners not know their faith? It seems we are more concerned with being Greek and "known" than serving the faith! Seeing the media-catering, publicity-mongering, and hellenocentric nature of our Church makes me realize what drives Orthodox to non-canonical groups like the GOC of America.

Can someone prove me wrong? I'm feeling despondent...  Undecided

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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 11:27:22 PM »

Why are Old Calendarists in America so "up-to-date"? They have good media, beautiful traditional churches, traditional chant, and their congregation actually knows their faith. Meanwhile, canonical Orthodoxy in America, despite having far more funds and far more parishioners, struggles with all of these.

I have always noticed this and wondered. Why does our Church participate in events like the huge Coca Cola sponsored one? Why do its major churches cater to grandiose Western music and the like? Why is Philoptochos the only major Orthodox organization of the Church, the rest being Greek organizations? Why do our parishioners not know their faith? It seems we are more concerned with being Greek and "known" than serving the faith! Seeing the media-catering, publicity-mongering, and hellenocentric nature of our Church makes me realize what drives Orthodox to non-canonical groups like the GOC of America.

Can someone prove me wrong? I'm feeling despondent...  Undecided



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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2013, 01:54:06 AM »

Hellenocentric. There's the crux of the problem, in a single word.
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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2013, 01:58:05 AM »

Why are Old Calendarists in America so "up-to-date"? They have good media, beautiful traditional churches, traditional chant, and their congregation actually knows their faith. Meanwhile, canonical Orthodoxy in America, despite having far more funds and far more parishioners, struggles with all of these.

I have always noticed this and wondered. Why does our Church participate in events like the huge Coca Cola sponsored one? Why do its major churches cater to grandiose Western music and the like? Why is Philoptochos the only major Orthodox organization of the Church, the rest being Greek organizations? Why do our parishioners not know their faith? It seems we are more concerned with being Greek and "known" than serving the faith! Seeing the media-catering, publicity-mongering, and hellenocentric nature of our Church makes me realize what drives Orthodox to non-canonical groups like the GOC of America.

Can someone prove me wrong? I'm feeling despondent...  Undecided



non-canonical groups believe they are canonical, and that the so called canonical groups are often non-canonical.   (Meaning are not following the church rules or canons of the church).  This is why there are mini-schisms so to say.

Sometimes people think it's about who has more people and are a larger group (can we say Great Schism) who determines who is correct.... Or thinks they are correct.

Then there is the fruit to consider as you mentioned.   What is the fruit of one church vs. another.

To answer your question, there are a lot of variables.  I would say those who are concerned about the old calendar for example have researched the topic deeply and are very dedicated to the EO faith in order to go with the "smaller group".  This may resonate why they seem to "know their faith more", as going to the Old Calendar groups would require a typical laymen some study & care of the faith itself.   (I am not saying others don't care, but often would not put in the effort of "truth seeking" because they think they have the truth).

In my opinion, the Calendar issue is ridiculous.  To think of Orthodox Christians FIGHTING - Brothers & Sisters - CLERGY - who state their succession as valid --- To be more angry with each other over a stinking calendar....  This resonates a very domineering attitude...   It's very simple, if a church followed 1 calendar for many many years, then decided to CHANGE, then the other group says "wait a sec, we are supposed to preserve Christianity" ---- This should not LEAD to a schism.... One or the other group should give in with love.  I personally believe for the sake of originality, that the Old Calendar was obviously followed.  The bishops in New Calendar churches should embrace this in order to unify the faith more.... It's really "Not that big of a deal" to go to Jan 7th Christmas in order to unite the church more.... It's about the power!!
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2013, 01:58:05 AM »

Why are Old Calendarists in America so "up-to-date"? They have good media, beautiful traditional churches, traditional chant, and their congregation actually knows their faith. Meanwhile, canonical Orthodoxy in America, despite having far more funds and far more parishioners, struggles with all of these.

You could say the same thing about many Anglicans, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Muslims, Amish, Hindus etc... (not saying they're all equivalent)

The point I'm making here is, the state of the overall church has nothing to do with its status as "Orthodox". The Church has sinners in it, in fact, it's full of them. Not only that, but the people within the Church have made mistakes.

One's Orthodoxy doesn't depend on if you worship in a parish without pews and true Byzantine Chant. Your Orthodoxy depends on your adherence to the Apostolic Faith.
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 12:10:05 PM »

Quote
In my opinion, the Calendar issue is ridiculous.  To think of Orthodox Christians FIGHTING - Brothers & Sisters - CLERGY - who state their succession as valid --- To be more angry with each other over a stinking calendar....  This resonates a very domineering attitude...   It's very simple, if a church followed 1 calendar for many many years, then decided to CHANGE, then the other group says "wait a sec, we are supposed to preserve Christianity" ---- This should not LEAD to a schism.... One or the other group should give in with love.  I personally believe for the sake of originality, that the Old Calendar was obviously followed.  The bishops in New Calendar churches should embrace this in order to unify the faith more.... It's really "Not that big of a deal" to go to Jan 7th Christmas in order to unite the church more.... It's about the power!!
While I would agree, I would also say that for the Old Calendarists it's a little deeper than just the Calendar. It's the ecumenism and worldliness that is pervading the Church.

Quote
You could say the same thing about many Anglicans, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Muslims, Amish, Hindus etc... (not saying they're all equivalent)

The point I'm making here is, the state of the overall church has nothing to do with its status as "Orthodox". The Church has sinners in it, in fact, it's full of them. Not only that, but the people within the Church have made mistakes.

One's Orthodoxy doesn't depend on if you worship in a parish without pews and true Byzantine Chant. Your Orthodoxy depends on your adherence to the Apostolic Faith.
Yes, but my observation has been that the "outward symptoms" of traditional chant and the like in a parish generally connect to further understanding of, adherence to, and dedication to the Apostolic Faith.

For example, I would have a hard time attending St. Sophia in LA. I don't know how one could handle the operatic style, the wealth-pandering, and the "hellenocentrism." I have a hard time conveying exactly what about it makes me uneasy, it just seems so fake to me to enter a church and see plaques all over everything talking about who donated what and how much and how important these Greek families are. I really can't stand the big Greek Cathedrals that are like this, they all seem that way. Again, it's hard to convey in words exactly why it bothers me so much.

Note: I am Greek.
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2013, 12:32:16 PM »

Why are Old Calendarists in America so "up-to-date"? They have good media, beautiful traditional churches, traditional chant, and their congregation actually knows their faith. Meanwhile, canonical Orthodoxy in America, despite having far more funds and far more parishioners, struggles with all of these.

I have always noticed this and wondered. Why does our Church participate in events like the huge Coca Cola sponsored one? Why do its major churches cater to grandiose Western music and the like? Why is Philoptochos the only major Orthodox organization of the Church, the rest being Greek organizations? Why do our parishioners not know their faith? It seems we are more concerned with being Greek and "known" than serving the faith! Seeing the media-catering, publicity-mongering, and hellenocentric nature of our Church makes me realize what drives Orthodox to non-canonical groups like the GOC of America.

Can someone prove me wrong? I'm feeling despondent...  Undecided

Those things are reasons for why the Old Calendarist jurisdictions exist in the first place, so it's not surprising.
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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2013, 02:07:28 PM »

I would like to end up in a hyper-conservative Greek Old Calendarist Church someday, but one without pews, with head coverings, segregated sexes, Byzantine Chant in all Ecclesiastical Greek, only canonical icons in classical Byzantine style, etc. I will go to this church without keeping the fasts or anything, and will only receive communion right before I die. If anyone knows of this church that matches my specifications, please let me know.
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2013, 02:21:41 PM »



For example, I would have a hard time attending St. Sophia in LA. I don't know how one could handle the operatic style, the wealth-pandering, and the "hellenocentrism." I have a hard time conveying exactly what about it makes me uneasy, it just seems so fake to me to enter a church and see plaques all over everything talking about who donated what and how much and how important these Greek families are. I really can't stand the big Greek Cathedrals that are like this, they all seem that way. Again, it's hard to convey in words exactly why it bothers me so much.

Note: I am Greek.

Come by our big Cathedral.  You may be surprised.   Wink Grin
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2013, 02:25:43 PM »

I would like to be, father!
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2013, 08:08:42 PM »

Hellenocentric. There's the crux of the problem, in a single word.

I wish, really and truly wish, as a descendant of Hellenes, that I could disagree with you, but I cannot.  Cry
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2013, 08:37:57 PM »

Why are Old Calendarists in America so "up-to-date"? They have good media, beautiful traditional churches, traditional chant, and their congregation actually knows their faith. Meanwhile, canonical Orthodoxy in America, despite having far more funds and far more parishioners, struggles with all of these.

I have always noticed this and wondered. Why does our Church participate in events like the huge Coca Cola sponsored one? Why do its major churches cater to grandiose Western music and the like? Why is Philoptochos the only major Orthodox organization of the Church, the rest being Greek organizations? Why do our parishioners not know their faith? It seems we are more concerned with being Greek and "known" than serving the faith! Seeing the media-catering, publicity-mongering, and hellenocentric nature of our Church makes me realize what drives Orthodox to non-canonical groups like the GOC of America.

Can someone prove me wrong? I'm feeling despondent...  Undecided



It seems to me that you may be restricting your possibilities to only Greek churches. Why don't you check out several others in your vicinity?
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2013, 08:56:05 PM »

Why are Old Calendarists in America so "up-to-date"? They have good media, beautiful traditional churches, traditional chant, and their congregation actually knows their faith. Meanwhile, canonical Orthodoxy in America, despite having far more funds and far more parishioners, struggles with all of these.

By "canonical Orthodoxy" are you limiting yourself only to the GOA?  There are other Orthodox churches.

I have always noticed this and wondered. Why does our Church participate in events like the huge Coca Cola sponsored one?

Some Greek festivals have Coke products; some have Pepsi products; haven't seen both at one festival unless you're referring to another event?

Why do its major churches cater to grandiose Western music and the like?

Not sure what you're talking about.

Why is Philoptochos the only major Orthodox organization of the Church,

Philoptochos was founded during the Great Depression.  There are other Orthodox organizations like IOCC (Charities), OCMC (Missionaries).

the rest being Greek organizations?

New York metro area has organizations for villages in Greece - the numbers run into the hundreds - maybe thousands.  Many are inactive because those who founded the organization died off.

Why do our parishioners not know their faith?

You can ask that question in any Orthodox church.  It is discussed here as well.

It seems we are more concerned with being Greek and "known" than serving the faith!

I've discussed Hellenism on this board.  Search my profile name and Hellenism.

Seeing the media-catering, publicity-mongering, and hellenocentric nature of our Church makes me realize what drives Orthodox to non-canonical groups like the GOC of America.

Why the GOC specifically?

Can someone prove me wrong? I'm feeling despondent...  Undecided

After some of these posts, I hope you're not as despondent.   Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2013, 09:18:02 PM »

Quote
It seems to me that you may be restricting your possibilities to only Greek churches. Why don't you check out several others in your vicinity?
Oh, I very much love my parish. Certainly some of the elements I mentioned are there but I have no intention of leaving it. My complaining (who am I?) is more directed towards GOARCH as a whole and many of its larger parishes, a few of which even have female altar servers!

Quote
By "canonical Orthodoxy" are you limiting yourself only to the GOA?  There are other Orthodox churches.
I'm just specifically talking about GOARCH as it is what I know best.

Quote
Some Greek festivals have Coke products; some have Pepsi products; haven't seen both at one festival unless you're referring to another event?
It's not specifically this event, but the concept behind it. Corporate "gala"s and such.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0PSYG30BRY

Quote
Not sure what you're talking about.
Not sure I can elaborate much more. Most of the large parishes that I've been to (other than my own) have organs and huge grandiose western sounding choirs.
Quote
Philoptochos was founded during the Great Depression.  There are other Orthodox organizations like IOCC (Charities), OCMC (Missionaries).
Yea, but I'm speaking specifically of GOARCH and Greek Orthodoxy, canonical or old calendarist in America.

Quote
Why the GOC specifically?
Just using it as an example of an Old Calendar Greek Church here in America.

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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2013, 11:03:15 PM »

I highly agree with you. Whats happening in the GOARCH Churches and other American Orthodox jurisdictions is pretty sad but I don't think people should leave the church because of that.
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2013, 11:21:46 PM »

I highly agree with you. Whats happening in the GOARCH Churches and other American Orthodox jurisdictions is pretty sad but I don't think people should leave the church because of that.
I agree. I would rather that those who started the schisms had remained in the Church and been a force for Tradition and orthodoxy rather than cleave themselves from it. Yet, judging by the numerous schisms after the initial one, their motivations may not have been so pure. Our saints that maintained Tradition in the face of liberalism did not leave the Church, but remained in it and did not stop until orthodoxy prevailed or they reposed!
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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2013, 11:43:36 PM »

Oh, I very much love my parish. Certainly some of the elements I mentioned are there but I have no intention of leaving it. My complaining (who am I?) is more directed towards GOARCH as a whole and many of its larger parishes, a few of which even have female altar servers!

We've discussed female altar servers.  The girls never set foot in the altar; instead, they process at the Great Entrance.

I'm just specifically talking about GOARCH as it is what I know best.

How close is the nearest Orthodox monastery to you?

It's not specifically this event, but the concept behind it. Corporate "gala"s and such.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0PSYG30BRY

I'm unable to view videos where I am.  Can you provide a summary?

Not sure I can elaborate much more. Most of the large parishes that I've been to (other than my own) have organs and huge grandiose western sounding choirs.

Organs have been debated ad nauseam.  My church's choir doesn't sound western.  I don't see any issue with choirs.  When Ecumenical Patriarch Dimitrios I of blessed memory visited America in 1990, there was a choir of 500 people at the Divine Liturgy.

Yea, but I'm speaking specifically of GOARCH and Greek Orthodoxy, canonical or old calendarist in America.

OK, why limit yourself to Greek Jurisdictions.  I've been to other Orthodox churches.  While the music may be different, I haven't seen anything different in terms of praxis (practice).

Quote
Why the GOC specifically?
Just using it as an example of an Old Calendar Greek Church here in America.

I don't know much about the GOC.  I know the ads they take out in the National Herald for various services they have.
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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2013, 11:50:34 PM »

Quote
We've discussed female altar servers.  The girls never set foot in the altar; instead, they process at the Great Entrance.
I'm not a fan of loopholes.
Quote
How close is the nearest Orthodox monastery to you?
St. Anthony's Greek Orthodox Monastery is less than an hour away. I visit about one every month or two.
Quote
I'm unable to view videos where I am.  Can you provide a summary?
A Coca-Cola funded gala with customary classical music and crystal. Just seems a bit out of place for a Church that so emphasizes asceticism. St. John Chrysostom spurned these kinds of things.
Quote
Organs have been debated ad nauseam.  My church's choir doesn't sound western.  I don't see any issue with choirs.  When Ecumenical Patriarch Dimitrios I of blessed memory visited America in 1990, there was a choir of 500 people at the Divine Liturgy.
I'm glad, neither does mine. Choirs themselves don't bother me, however grandiose Western choirs with polyphony where the words overlap do.
Quote
OK, why limit yourself to Greek Jurisdictions.  I've been to other Orthodox churches.  While the music may be different, I haven't seen anything different in terms of praxis (practice).
As I have said multiple times, I am not. I am simply comparing Greek Old Calendarism and Canonical Greek Orthodoxy. That is the topic of this thread.
Quote
I don't know much about the GOC.
Neither do I.
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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2013, 11:58:33 PM »

I'm sorry to see much of what is in the original post. My experience in the Holy (Greek Orthodox) Metropolis of Pittsburgh is quite the opposite in connection with this matter of "Hellenocentrism."  At my age, almost 60, I recall the days of the Greek culture being part of the "dual mission" of the church in the GOAA.  However, during the last 30 years, Greek cultural activities have been substantially minimized. Out of 6 parishes in and around my area, 2 have a dominant Greek ethic flavor, one of those is an inner-city parish, the mother church to 4 of the parishes that are included in my discussion herein.  But all 6 parishes are overwhelmingly parish churches of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.  All of the parish priests are dedicated servants in the Vineyard of our Lord, preaching the Gospel of Christ, teaching the faith, and their various parish ministries assist in this regard.  Many of the active faithful parishioners are not of the Greek ethnic background, though almost exclusively due to marriage.

The genuine Byzantine Chant may not be at the point of excellence such as exists on Mount Athos, but it is not poor, either, though there are choirs that sing responses and hymns of the Divine Liturgy in Western melodies.  

In these 4 of the 6 churches, Greek culture is a token presence.

Knowledge of the faithful of our faith remains a challenge, but not for want of parish, priest's, hierarch's, metropolis, and Archdiocesan ministries dedication and initiative to education and instruction to improve our knowledge and spiritual growth.

This, the majority of parishes are thriving ecclesial centers.

Read the last issue of the "Orthodox Observer" and look at all the strategic initiatives Leadership 100 is funding; these Archdiocesan, national ministries and initiatives, are not the marks of a church in decline.

(I'll address the matter of national organizations when I'm less tired.)
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2013, 12:07:18 AM »

I would like to end up in a hyper-conservative Greek Old Calendarist Church someday, but one without pews, with head coverings, segregated sexes, Byzantine Chant in all Ecclesiastical Greek, only canonical icons in classical Byzantine style, etc. I will go to this church without keeping the fasts or anything, and will only receive communion right before I die. If anyone knows of this church that matches my specifications, please let me know.

You may wish to look into the Greek Old Calendar Synod in Resistance; their Exarchate of America is in Etna, California and their website and that of their mother church in Fili, Attica, Greece, is loaded with descriptive and interesting information.  (I think they do celebrate services with some English, but it is Old English, the English of the King James Bible.) They have a few parishes, 15 perhaps, across the country.

You may also wish to consult with the "owner" of this forum, Fr. Athanasios, in regard to your interest.
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2013, 12:21:04 AM »

Quote
We've discussed female altar servers.  The girls never set foot in the altar; instead, they process at the Great Entrance.
I'm not a fan of loopholes.

I don't like loopholes either.  If the Bishop thinks it's OK, does that make him a heretic?

Quote
How close is the nearest Orthodox monastery to you?
St. Anthony's Greek Orthodox Monastery is less than an hour away. I visit about one every month or two.

Do you expect Greek Orthodox Worship to resemble that at the monastery?

Quote
I'm unable to view videos where I am.  Can you provide a summary?
A Coca-Cola funded gala with customary classical music and crystal. Just seems a bit out of place for a Church that so emphasizes asceticism. St. John Chrysostom spurned these kinds of things.

What kind of gala?  I have threads on the Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarch giving their annual Human Rights Award to Jews and Catholics.


Choirs themselves don't bother me, however grandiose Western choirs with polyphony where the words overlap do.

In my church's choir, the men keep the ison while the women sing.  I don't see what's wrong with polyphonic singing.   Huh

Quote
OK, why limit yourself to Greek Jurisdictions.  I've been to other Orthodox churches.  While the music may be different, I haven't seen anything different in terms of praxis (practice).
As I have said multiple times, I am not. I am simply comparing Greek Old Calendarism and Canonical Greek Orthodoxy. That is the topic of this thread.

Other than the forum owner who's busy with his missionary work, do you see any other Greek Old Calendarist members posting on this board?

Quote
I don't know much about the GOC.
Neither do I.

History of the GOC, in Greek:
http://www.ecclesiagoc.gr/el/istorika/234-syntomo-istoriko
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2013, 12:34:50 AM »

Quote
I don't like loopholes either.  If the Bishop thinks it's OK, does that make him a heretic?
No, but I would never attend a parish that allowed it.
Quote
Do you expect Greek Orthodox Worship to resemble that at the monastery?
Relatively, yes. But I understand the difference between a parish and a monastery.
Quote
What kind of gala?  I have threads on the Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarch giving their annual Human Rights Award to Jews and Catholics.
I know I will likely be branded a fanatic, but I'm not a fan of this.
Quote
In my church's choir, the men keep the ison while the women sing.  I don't see what's wrong with polyphonic singing.
While Byzantine chant is technically polyphonic, you know what I meant by it.
Quote
Other than the forum owner who's busy with his missionary work, do you see any other Greek Old Calendarist members posting on this board?
1. Yes.
2. Does it matter?

I don't know why you're drilling me, there seems to be no purpose other than trolling.
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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2013, 12:39:36 AM »

I highly agree with you. Whats happening in the GOARCH Churches and other American Orthodox jurisdictions is pretty sad but I don't think people should leave the church because of that.
I agree. I would rather that those who started the schisms had remained in the Church and been a force for Tradition and orthodoxy rather than cleave themselves from it. Yet, judging by the numerous schisms after the initial one, their motivations may not have been so pure. Our saints that maintained Tradition in the face of liberalism did not leave the Church, but remained in it and did not stop until orthodoxy prevailed or they reposed!

Exactly, Christ told us that the gates of hell will not prevail over the church. He did not tell us to jump ship when it gets tough. We should be fighting for authentic traditionalist Orthodoxy and not creating schisms. I personally find the Orthodox Church of Jerusalem to be home as it is very traditional and uses Byzantine chant.
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2013, 12:50:08 AM »

Quote
I don't like loopholes either.  If the Bishop thinks it's OK, does that make him a heretic?
No, but I would never attend a parish that allowed it.

On what basis?

Quote
Do you expect Greek Orthodox Worship to resemble that at the monastery?
Relatively, yes. But I understand the difference between a parish and a monastery.

I don't.  I just know parish worship.  Monastery worship is completely foreign to me.  I have to initially go with someone to a monastery; I can't go by myself.  I live 45 minutes from a Monastery under the Patriarchate of Georgia and I don't visit because I don't know what to expect.

Quote
What kind of gala?  I have threads on the Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarch giving their annual Human Rights Award to Jews and Catholics.
I know I will likely be branded a fanatic, but I'm not a fan of this.

I don't think you're a fanatic.   Smiley


Quote
In my church's choir, the men keep the ison while the women sing.  I don't see what's wrong with polyphonic singing.
While Byzantine chant is technically polyphonic, you know what I meant by it.

Uh, I think we spoke over each other with the term polyphonic.


Quote
Other than the forum owner who's busy with his missionary work, do you see any other Greek Old Calendarist members posting on this board?
1. Yes.
2. Does it matter?

Maybe it would help you if more Greek Old Calendarist members posted to give you more depth in your OP.

I don't know why you're drilling me, there seems to be no purpose other than trolling.

I think we're having a conversation on the topic you raised.  If you're feeling "drilled," that's not my intention.   angel
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2013, 01:12:39 AM »

Quote
On what basis?

Departure from tradition.
Quote
I don't.  I just know parish worship.  Monastery worship is completely foreign to me.  I have to initially go with someone to a monastery; I can't go by myself.  I live 45 minutes from a Monastery under the Patriarchate of Georgia and I don't visit because I don't know what to expect.
I didn't know there were Georgian monasteries in America, neat.
Quote
I don't think you're a fanatic.   

Well, that's good.
Quote
Uh, I think we spoke over each other with the term polyphonic.
I mean polyphony more complex than a drone note.
Quote
I think we're having a conversation on the topic you raised.  If you're feeling "drilled," that's not my intention.
Alrighty.  Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2013, 01:36:51 AM »

Quote
On what basis?

Departure from tradition.

The tradition had female deaconesses at one point.  Just because a tradition falls out of use doesn't make it wrong.

Quote
I don't.  I just know parish worship.  Monastery worship is completely foreign to me.  I have to initially go with someone to a monastery; I can't go by myself.  I live 45 minutes from a Monastery under the Patriarchate of Georgia and I don't visit because I don't know what to expect.
I didn't know there were Georgian monasteries in America, neat.

They have a website here and another monastery in North Carolina.  They are a group of monastics from Greece, who remain loyal to their Elder in Greece, that came to America via the OCA and then ROCOR and now the Patriarchate of Georgia.

Quote
Uh, I think we spoke over each other with the term polyphonic.
I mean polyphony more complex than a drone note.

I'm musically challenged so I can't imagine what that would sound like.

Quote
I think we're having a conversation on the topic you raised.  If you're feeling "drilled," that's not my intention.
Alrighty.  Smiley

Cool.   Cool
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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2013, 02:00:54 AM »

Quote
The tradition had female deaconesses at one point.  Just because a tradition falls out of use doesn't make it wrong.
Yes, but they didn't serve a liturgical role.
Quote
They have a website here and another monastery in North Carolina.  They are a group of monastics from Greece, who remain loyal to their Elder in Greece, that came to America via the OCA and then ROCOR and now the Patriarchate of Georgia.
Interesting...
Quote
I'm musically challenged so I can't imagine what that would sound like.
Oftentimes beautiful but not good for liturgy.
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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2013, 02:28:15 AM »

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The tradition had female deaconesses at one point.  Just because a tradition falls out of use doesn't make it wrong.
Yes, but they didn't serve a liturgical role.

They helped with women who were being baptized or in need.

Quote
They have a website here and another monastery in North Carolina.  They are a group of monastics from Greece, who remain loyal to their Elder in Greece, that came to America via the OCA and then ROCOR and now the Patriarchate of Georgia.
Interesting...

Their Abbess is a US Citizen.

Quote
I'm musically challenged so I can't imagine what that would sound like.
Oftentimes beautiful but not good for liturgy.

I've been spoiled with an excellent choir including soloists.  I was invited to join the choir when I was 16 except that I went off to college.
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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2013, 05:10:21 AM »

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The tradition had female deaconesses at one point.  Just because a tradition falls out of use doesn't make it wrong.
Yes, but they didn't serve a liturgical role.

Great! I congratulate you solved that mystery dozens of liturgists couldn't agree about! Do you have a time machine?

I'm glad, neither does mine. Choirs themselves don't bother me, however grandiose Western choirs with polyphony where the words overlap do.

It seems you've never beet to a Russian church.
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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2013, 09:58:05 AM »

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Great! I congratulate you solved that mystery dozens of liturgists couldn't agree about! Do you have a time machine?
Smiley

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It seems you've never beet to a Russian church.
I have.
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« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2013, 11:37:34 AM »

The discussion between the OP and Sol is interesting as the essence of it really mirrors opinions and discussions often found within any of our multitude of ethnic groupings within American Orthodoxy. Frankly, you both are "right" in a sense.

For example, my father loved, and was expert in the traditional Rusyn chant system. At the same time, for sixty years he served parishes with a long standing, and through the 1960's - 1990's, a magnificent choir of the Russian/Ukrainian style. He found room in his heart to appreciate and understand the beauty and power of both. Yet, to the end of his years, it saddened him that the "people" appreciated choral singing more than the chant tradition.

In the Slavic churches one will find people searching for a "better, more authentic " brand. Some found it in ROCOR, to others that was not "pure" enough for them and off to ROCA or GOC or wherever. Most such people are pious, concerned and sincere. (Of course I believe they - those outside of what I believe to be the Canonical Church -are misguided but I respect and understand them.) Others are simply nostalgic for an earlier time or an idealized vision of a long gone period and confuse that nostalgia with darker issues such as heresy. Don't fall into that trap.

I believe that if you are searching for "a" or "the" perfect church or expression of tradition here on this earth, you will be disappointed as any place you visit or join will be full of imperfect human beings trying to find their way.

Is your parish community full of basically well-intentioned faithful? Is your priest a good man? Are positive things going on there, even if they could be "better"? I know you have a fine shepherd in your Metropolitan. Don't leave, don't add further wounds of division and doubt in the body of the Church. Work steadily and from within to make your parish stronger in faith and love. By so doing you can effect positive change from within.

As I said initially, the grass isn't always greener and be careful of what you wish for as you may be  disappointed in what you receive.
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« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2013, 12:29:32 PM »

The discussion between the OP and Sol is interesting as the essence of it really mirrors opinions and discussions often found within any of our multitude of ethnic groupings within American Orthodoxy. Frankly, you both are "right" in a sense.

For example, my father loved, and was expert in the traditional Rusyn chant system. At the same time, for sixty years he served parishes with a long standing, and through the 1960's - 1990's, a magnificent choir of the Russian/Ukrainian style. He found room in his heart to appreciate and understand the beauty and power of both. Yet, to the end of his years, it saddened him that the "people" appreciated choral singing more than the chant tradition.

In the Slavic churches one will find people searching for a "better, more authentic " brand. Some found it in ROCOR, to others that was not "pure" enough for them and off to ROCA or GOC or wherever. Most such people are pious, concerned and sincere. (Of course I believe they - those outside of what I believe to be the Canonical Church -are misguided but I respect and understand them.) Others are simply nostalgic for an earlier time or an idealized vision of a long gone period and confuse that nostalgia with darker issues such as heresy. Don't fall into that trap.

I believe that if you are searching for "a" or "the" perfect church or expression of tradition here on this earth, you will be disappointed as any place you visit or join will be full of imperfect human beings trying to find their way.

Is your parish community full of basically well-intentioned faithful? Is your priest a good man? Are positive things going on there, even if they could be "better"? I know you have a fine shepherd in your Metropolitan. Don't leave, don't add further wounds of division and doubt in the body of the Church. Work steadily and from within to make your parish stronger in faith and love. By so doing you can effect positive change from within.

As I said initially, the grass isn't always greener and be careful of what you wish for as you may be  disappointed in what you receive.
Thank you. I have no intention of leaving my parish, I very much love it and my spiritual father. I was more comparing Old Calendarism and Canonical Orthodoxy as a whole, rather than my specific parish. As I said previously,
Quote
I would rather that those who started the schisms had remained in the Church and been a force for Tradition and orthodoxy rather than cleave themselves from it. Yet, judging by the numerous schisms after the initial one, their motivations may not have been so pure. Our saints that maintained Tradition in the face of liberalism did not leave the Church, but remained in it and did not stop until orthodoxy prevailed or they reposed!
I don't believe that schism or joining a schism in the answer, it only causes more problems and isolates conservatism rather than promoting it within the Church.
Thanks again!  Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2013, 01:51:13 PM »

promoting [conservatism] within the Church.

yeah... good luck with that lol

Honestly, I do not see the GOC ever going back. they will continue as they are

There are no big traditionalist GOC (in america) bishops around to even try it, and I do not see them ever getting elected.
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« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2013, 08:14:38 PM »

I didn't say it was likely, though it would be nice.

What I said was that I wish rather than leaving they had stayed in the Church and been a force for tradition.
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« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2013, 11:18:55 PM »

"Tradition." To those of us who profess the Orthodox faith, tradition is a concept over which we tear ourselves apart to our very core. We all "get" the concept, but the transfer of the concept into real practice is illusive at best.

A new priest comes to a parish and "changes" things - perhaps to reflect what was "familiar" to him as a child or something he read about or idealized.

The old Bishop was strict about divorces, another one - not so much.

The liturgy itself is not something static - it was not "revealed" to St. John or St. Basil like some golden tablets under a rock or narrated by an "angel."

Plenty of canons have little if any relevance to life today. Are you avoiding that Jewish surgeon perchance?

There was a time in the history of the Church wherein the concept of a world and a church operating without a "basileus" or "tsar" was not just inconceivable, but likely viewed as heretical.

These are just a few random thoughts but I am sure we could use all of the forum's bandwidth if we really tried!

There is no perfect age, no ideal time - we are stuck for now with this "now."

So we pray, we worship, we learn and in the end, the Church endures. Throughout that process we endeavor to find the way to our salvation.






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« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2013, 02:16:44 AM »

"Tradition." To those of us who profess the Orthodox faith, tradition is a concept over which we tear ourselves apart to our very core. We all "get" the concept, but the transfer of the concept into real practice is illusive at best.

A new priest comes to a parish and "changes" things - perhaps to reflect what was "familiar" to him as a child or something he read about or idealized.

The old Bishop was strict about divorces, another one - not so much.

The liturgy itself is not something static - it was not "revealed" to St. John or St. Basil like some golden tablets under a rock or narrated by an "angel."

Plenty of canons have little if any relevance to life today. Are you avoiding that Jewish surgeon perchance?

There was a time in the history of the Church wherein the concept of a world and a church operating without a "basileus" or "tsar" was not just inconceivable, but likely viewed as heretical.

These are just a few random thoughts but I am sure we could use all of the forum's bandwidth if we really tried!

There is no perfect age, no ideal time - we are stuck for now with this "now."

So we pray, we worship, we learn and in the end, the Church endures. Throughout that process we endeavor to find the way to our salvation.


POM nomination!
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« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2013, 06:08:46 PM »

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It seems to me that you may be restricting your possibilities to only Greek churches. Why don't you check out several others in your vicinity?
Oh, I very much love my parish. Certainly some of the elements I mentioned are there but I have no intention of leaving it. My complaining (who am I?) is more directed towards GOARCH as a whole and many of its larger parishes, a few of which even have female altar servers!


I was hoping that you would answer the way you did. It is one thing to try to improve things from the inside, another thing altogether to depart for greener pastures.

BTW, I share your concern with large parishes, but perhaps for another reason. I read recently that the maximum number of parishioners that a priest can optimally minister to is 150. That number includes all communing members, not just the ones who are "members in good standing."

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« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2013, 02:19:05 AM »

Has the calendar really become such an idol that brothers and sisters in Christ really think the schism is worth it?  For real.  They all consider themselves Orthodox and 99.9% of the way they are the same.
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« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2013, 02:20:29 AM »

Has the calendar really become such an idol that brothers and sisters in Christ really think the schism is worth it?
Has your novel interpretation of the Scriptures become such an idol that you're willing to leave the Church over it? If so, then you probably shouldn't criticize us for our schisms.
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« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2013, 05:56:14 AM »

Has the calendar really become such an idol that brothers and sisters in Christ really think the schism is worth it?
Has your novel interpretation of the Scriptures become such an idol that you're willing to leave the Church over it? If so, then you probably shouldn't criticize us for our schisms.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.  police
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« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2013, 01:48:38 PM »

Has the calendar really become such an idol that brothers and sisters in Christ really think the schism is worth it?
Has your novel interpretation of the Scriptures become such an idol that you're willing to leave the Church over it? If so, then you probably shouldn't criticize us for our schisms.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.  police
Not if it's digital. Wink
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« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2013, 09:43:42 AM »

Has the calendar really become such an idol that brothers and sisters in Christ really think the schism is worth it?
Has your novel interpretation of the Scriptures become such an idol that you're willing to leave the Church over it? If so, then you probably shouldn't criticize us for our schisms.

Yes PeterTheAleut, the "novel" interpretation of the scriptures are the practices of 100-199 AD Christianity.  I know it may seem novel to you - so I'd challenge you to ask - why?  What is your church teaching you? 

It's sad you have to attack me personally, when I make a point wishing the EO to be in unionized.   The calendar issue is major and has even broken communion between EO Christians.    When a calendar replaces the focus of Christ to the point where others do not recognize the Eucharist of those "other" EO they disagree with over a calendar, yes - that is an idol, as the calendar replaces the union of "communion".
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« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2013, 07:07:08 AM »

Calendar off-topic moved to the proper thread.
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« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2013, 03:24:22 PM »

Forgiveness Sunday is in three days. Let's take a recess until after Bright Week. In case I forget, please PM me if you really want this topic reopened. Thanks, Carl
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« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2013, 11:21:05 AM »

This topic is unlocked as promised. Carl Kraeff
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