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Offline Peter J

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #180 on: March 08, 2013, 06:02:06 PM »
If the Pope become Orthodox,

I guess his successor will have to keep a close eye on him to make sure that doesn't happen. ;)
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Offline Peter J

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #181 on: March 08, 2013, 06:03:17 PM »
What's not to like about Papist?  ;)  (Isa, don't answer that  ;D!)

The fact that his username got me banned from CAF  ;D ;D ;D

Welcome to the ranks of our group of those illustrous men banished from CAF.

You mean permanently? If so I guess I don't qualify.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #182 on: March 08, 2013, 06:12:43 PM »
What's not to like about Papist?  ;)  (Isa, don't answer that  ;D!)

The fact that his username got me banned from CAF  ;D ;D ;D

Welcome to the ranks of our group of those illustrous men banished from CAF.

You mean permanently? If so I guess I don't qualify.

Yes, yes. We can't allow just anyone in our club.
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Offline brastaseptim

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #183 on: March 08, 2013, 06:34:05 PM »
What's not to like about Papist?  ;)  (Isa, don't answer that  ;D!)

The fact that his username got me banned from CAF  ;D ;D ;D

Welcome to the ranks of our group of those illustrous men banished from CAF.

You mean permanently? If so I guess I don't qualify.

Wouldn't know- the people on CAF like me- until I get in the Traditionalists section. Then people don't like me no more...  :'( I mean, just because some of my traditions are older than Trent...
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Offline choy

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #184 on: March 08, 2013, 06:59:03 PM »
What's not to like about Papist?  ;)  (Isa, don't answer that  ;D!)

The fact that his username got me banned from CAF  ;D ;D ;D

How the heck did *that* happen??

I called someone a "papist"  ;D

Offline choy

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #185 on: March 08, 2013, 06:59:44 PM »
What's not to like about Papist?  ;)  (Isa, don't answer that  ;D!)

The fact that his username got me banned from CAF  ;D ;D ;D

Welcome to the ranks of our group of those illustrous men banished from CAF.

You mean permanently? If so I guess I don't qualify.

Well, current acount is suspended.  But I have been banned before ;)

Offline Papist

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #186 on: March 08, 2013, 07:41:19 PM »
What's not to like about Papist?  ;)  (Isa, don't answer that  ;D!)

The fact that his username got me banned from CAF  ;D ;D ;D

How the heck did *that* happen??

I called someone a "papist"  ;D
I was also banned from CAF. :)
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Offline Papist

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #187 on: March 08, 2013, 07:43:41 PM »
"papism" is a forbidden word.

Hmmm ... maybe after all these years, we should start a "Change Papist's Screenname" campaign.

 :) :thoughful:  8)
Change? On an Orthodox forum? Is outrage!!!!
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Peter J

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #188 on: March 08, 2013, 08:06:17 PM »

(Perhaps you could also clarify what you mean by "the Roman Church".)

Roman Church means the Church of Rome, and those under her jurisdiction (Pastor Aeternus aside) and celebrates the Roman Rite.

That really isn't "a church".

I'm not saying that would be a bad thing -- in that case, presumably the Mozarabic Rite, the Bragan Rite, the Ambrosian Rite etc would each correspond to a separate church -- but it's no good pretending things that really aren't.

The Pope is the Bishop of Rome, so it is the Roman Church.  The Pope isn't the Bishop of Latin.

Well, I don't object to the Diocese of Rome being called a church. What I meant is that all those who use the Roman Rite aren't a church -- depending how you look at it, they are either many churches (many dioceses), or a portion of one church (the Latin Church).

After your years in Eastern Catholicism, I would think you'd understand the difference between a church and a rite.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #189 on: March 08, 2013, 08:13:05 PM »
What's not to like about Papist?  ;)  (Isa, don't answer that  ;D!)

The fact that his username got me banned from CAF  ;D ;D ;D

Welcome to the ranks of our group of those illustrous men banished from CAF.

You mean permanently? If so I guess I don't qualify.

Wouldn't know- the people on CAF like me- until I get in the Traditionalists section. Then people don't like me no more...  :'( I mean, just because some of my traditions are older than Trent...

Recently I've been getting on alright with some of the Catholics that I used to butt-heads with a lot :), but even so I feel like its a cordiality with little underlying agreement.  :-\
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline brastaseptim

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #190 on: March 08, 2013, 09:25:41 PM »
What's not to like about Papist?  ;)  (Isa, don't answer that  ;D!)

The fact that his username got me banned from CAF  ;D ;D ;D

Welcome to the ranks of our group of those illustrous men banished from CAF.

You mean permanently? If so I guess I don't qualify.

Wouldn't know- the people on CAF like me- until I get in the Traditionalists section. Then people don't like me no more...  :'( I mean, just because some of my traditions are older than Trent...

Recently I've been getting on alright with some of the Catholics that I used to butt-heads with a lot :), but even so I feel like its a cordiality with little underlying agreement.  :-\

They're fine until I mention I like the NO Mass because its elements are older. "Oh, you mean THAT thing? That thing which was nOT promulgated by the Council of Trent! And God-forbid, allowed people to not use entirely Latin? Is outrage!!" ::)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 09:26:36 PM by brastaseptim »
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #191 on: April 22, 2013, 08:17:30 AM »
What's not to like about Papist?  ;)  (Isa, don't answer that  ;D!)

The fact that his username got me banned from CAF  ;D ;D ;D

Welcome to the ranks of our group of those illustrous men banished from CAF.

You mean permanently? If so I guess I don't qualify.

Wouldn't know- the people on CAF like me- until I get in the Traditionalists section. Then people don't like me no more...  :'( I mean, just because some of my traditions are older than Trent...

Recently I've been getting on alright with some of the Catholics that I used to butt-heads with a lot :), but even so I feel like its a cordiality with little underlying agreement.  :-\

They're fine until I mention I like the NO Mass because its elements are older. "Oh, you mean THAT thing? That thing which was nOT promulgated by the Council of Trent! And God-forbid, allowed people to not use entirely Latin? Is outrage!!" ::)
In his famous Bull Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V forbade changing the traditional Latin Mass.

 

Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570:

“Now, therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal published by Us… Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition.  Should any venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”[2]

 

On April 3, 1969, Paul VI replaced the Traditional Latin Mass in the Vatican II churches with his own creation, the New Mass or Novus Ordo.  Since that time, the world has seen the following in the Vatican II churches which celebrate the New Mass or Novus Ordo:

 

The world has seen Clown Masses, in which the “priest” dresses as a clown in utter mockery of God.

The world has seen a priest dressed as Dracula; in a football jersey accompanied by cheerleaders; as a cheese-head…

 

…driving a Volkswagen down the aisle of church as the people sing hosanna. There have been disco Masses…


...gymnastic performances during the New Mass; balloon Masses; Carnival Masses;

 

…nude Masses, at which scantily clad or nude people take part.  The world has seen juggling Masses, at which a juggler performs during the New Mass.

 

 The world has seen priests celebrate the New Mass with Dorito Chips;

 

…with Mountain Dew; on a cardboard box; with cookies; with Chinese tea accompanied by ancestor worship; with a basketball as the priest bounces it all over the altar; with a guitar as the priest plays a solo performance.  The world has witnessed the New Mass with a priest almost totally nude as he dances around the altar or with other high-wire abominations…

 

The world has seen New Masses with priests dressed in native pagan costumes; with a Jewish Menorah placed on the altar; with a statue of Buddha on the altar; with nuns making offerings to female goddesses; with lectors and gift bearers dressed up as voodoo Satanists.  The world has seen the New Mass at which the performer is dressed in a tuxedo and tells jokes.  The world has seen rock concerts at the New Mass; guitar and polka New Masses; a puppet New Mass; a New Mass where the people gather round the altar dressed as devils;  a New Mass where people perform lewd dances to the beat of a steel drum band.  The world has seen a New Mass where nuns dressed as pagan vestal virgins make pagan offerings.

 

The world has also seen New Masses incorporating every false religion.  There have been Buddhist New masses; Hindu and Muslim New Masses; New Masses where Jews and Unitarians offer candles to false gods.  There are churches where the entire congregation says Mass with the priest; where the priest sometimes talks to the people instead of saying Mass.

 

What we have catalogued is just a tiny sampling of the kind of thing that occurs in every diocese in the world where the New Mass is celebrated, to one degree or another.  Our Lord tells us, “By their fruits you shall know them” (Mt. 7:16).  The fruits of the New Mass are incalculably scandalous, sacrilegious and idolatrous.  This is because the New Mass itself, even in its most pure form, is a false, invalid Mass and an abomination.

 

Even an organization which defends the New Mass was forced to admit the following about the typical New Mass – i.e., the New Mass normally offered in the churches (without even necessarily considering the aforementioned abominations and sacrileges that are commonplace): “Most of the New Masses we’ve attended… are happy-clappy festivities, the music is atrocious, the sermons are vacuous, and they are irreverent...”[3]

 

When the New Mass came out in 1969, Cardinals Ottaviani, Bacci, and some other theologians wrote to Paul VI about it.  Keep in mind that what they said about the New Mass concerns the Latin Version, the so-called “most pure” version of the New Mass.  Their study is popularly known as The Ottaviani Intervention.  It states:

 

“The Novus Ordo [the New Order of Mass] represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session 22 of the Council of Trent.”[4]

 

They could clearly see that the Latin version of the New Mass was a striking departure from the teaching of the Council of Trent.  Of the twelve offertory prayers in the Traditional Mass, only two are retained in the New Mass.  The deleted offertory prayers are the same ones that the Protestant heretics Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer eliminated.  The New Mass was promulgated by Paul VI with the help of six Protestant Ministers.

 

The six Protestant Ministers who helped design the New Mass were: Drs. George, Jasper, Shepherd, Kunneth, Smith and Thurian.

 

Paul VI even admitted to his good friend Jean Guitton that his intention in changing the Mass was to make it Protestant.

 

Jean Guitton (an intimate friend of Paul VI) wrote: “The intention of Pope Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the [New] Mass, was to reform the Catholic liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy.  There was with Pope Paul VI an ecumenical intention to remove, or, at least to correct, or, at least to relax, what was too Catholic in the traditional sense in the Mass and, I repeat, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist Mass.”[5]

 

Paul VI removed what was too Catholic in the Mass in order to make the Mass a Protestant service.

 http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/new_mass_vs_traditional_latin_mass.php



Also just 1 of many reasons why Pope Francis can not be a true pope, just like all the popes since vatican 2

Pope's Note to Chief Rabbi of Rome for Feast of Passover

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-s-note-to-chief-rabbi-of-rome-for-feast-of-passover

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #192 on: January 03, 2016, 08:29:45 PM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #193 on: January 03, 2016, 08:38:47 PM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #194 on: January 04, 2016, 06:44:45 AM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 06:47:47 AM by Wandile »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #195 on: January 04, 2016, 08:07:38 AM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.

Doesn't the principle of Lex orandi, lex credendi make that a false dichotomy, though?
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #196 on: January 04, 2016, 10:11:03 AM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.

so what are your thoughts on the following

In his famous Bull Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V forbade changing the traditional Latin Mass.


Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570:
“Now, therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal published by Us… Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition.  Should any venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”[2

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #197 on: January 04, 2016, 12:39:04 PM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.

Doesn't the principle of Lex orandi, lex credendi make that a false dichotomy, though?

Catholic tradition doesn't seem to think so. There is a sharp distinction between disciplinary and dogmatic decrees; that is the reason the Western Church has not really quibbled about setting aside some canons of the ecumenical councils. The pope has the same authority as a council, so he can change the canons. Many have thought and taught that the pope is above the canons.

I do wonder what the implications of the wholesale change of every ritual in the Roman Church after Vatican II are for the principle of lex orandi, lex credendi.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #198 on: January 04, 2016, 12:43:07 PM »
so what are your thoughts on the following

In his famous Bull Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V forbade changing the traditional Latin Mass.


Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570:
“Now, therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal published by Us… Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition.  Should any venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”[2

I think very little of it given that that is boilerplate used at the end of virtually every papal bull. The very same pontiff used basically identical wording in Quod a nobis of 1568 to forbid changes to the Roman Breviary. Changes were forthcoming almost immediately, and continued apace until Pius X made radical changes to the distribution of the psalter in 1911. Pius XII and John XXIII continued to hack away at the Breviary through 1960.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #199 on: January 05, 2016, 08:32:52 AM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.

Doesn't the principle of Lex orandi, lex credendi make that a false dichotomy, though?

Not at all, Lex orandi, lex credendi  speaks yo thebtule of prayer/how we worship as a testament for what our faith is. This does not presuppose that liturgy can't change, only that the liturgy still reflects our faith in its prayers through song or spoken prayer.
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
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Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #200 on: January 05, 2016, 08:33:34 AM »
so what are your thoughts on the following

In his famous Bull Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V forbade changing the traditional Latin Mass.


Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570:
“Now, therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal published by Us… Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition.  Should any venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”[2

I think very little of it given that that is boilerplate used at the end of virtually every papal bull. The very same pontiff used basically identical wording in Quod a nobis of 1568 to forbid changes to the Roman Breviary. Changes were forthcoming almost immediately, and continued apace until Pius X made radical changes to the distribution of the psalter in 1911. Pius XII and John XXIII continued to hack away at the Breviary through 1960.

Good points
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #201 on: January 05, 2016, 11:29:01 AM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.

Doesn't the principle of Lex orandi, lex credendi make that a false dichotomy, though?

Not at all, Lex orandi, lex credendi  speaks yo thebtule of prayer/how we worship as a testament for what our faith is. This does not presuppose that liturgy can't change, only that the liturgy still reflects our faith in its prayers through song or spoken prayer.

But couldn't a sufficiently motivated individual stretch that broad definition to fit anything from the 1568 Breviary to clown masses? At least the Trads have something concrete that they can point to as reflecting their faith, even if it does seem a bit arbitrary.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #202 on: January 05, 2016, 06:53:06 PM »
so what are your thoughts on the following

In his famous Bull Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V forbade changing the traditional Latin Mass.


Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570:
“Now, therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal published by Us… Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition.  Should any venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”[2

I think very little of it given that that is boilerplate used at the end of virtually every papal bull. The very same pontiff used basically identical wording in Quod a nobis of 1568 to forbid changes to the Roman Breviary. Changes were forthcoming almost immediately, and continued apace until Pius X made radical changes to the distribution of the psalter in 1911. Pius XII and John XXIII continued to hack away at the Breviary through 1960.
you think very little of it but maybe you should rethink
When the New Mass came out in 1969, Cardinals Ottaviani, Bacci, and some other theologians wrote to Paul VI about it.  Keep in mind that what they said about the New Mass concerns the Latin Version, the so-called “most pure” version of the New Mass.  Their study is popularly known as The Ottaviani Intervention.  It states:

“The Novus Ordo [the New Order of Mass] represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session 22 of the Council of Trent.”[4]

They could clearly see that the Latin version of the New Mass was a striking departure from the teaching of the Council of Trent.  Of the twelve offertory prayers in the Traditional Mass, only two are retained in the New Mass.  The deleted offertory prayers are the same ones that the Protestant heretics Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer eliminated.  The New Mass was promulgated by Paul VI with the help of six Protestant Ministers.

The six Protestant Ministers who helped design the New Mass were: Drs. George, Jasper, Shepherd, Kunneth, Smith and Thurian.

Paul VI even admitted to his good friend Jean Guitton that his intention in changing the Mass was to make it Protestant.


Jean Guitton (an intimate friend of Paul VI) wrote: “The intention of Pope Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the [New] Mass, was to reform the Catholic liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy.  There was with Pope Paul VI an ecumenical intention to remove, or, at least to correct, or, at least to relax, what was too Catholic in the traditional sense in the Mass and, I repeat, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist Mass.”[5]

Paul VI removed what was too Catholic in the Mass in order to make the Mass a Protestant service.

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #203 on: January 06, 2016, 04:14:01 AM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.

Doesn't the principle of Lex orandi, lex credendi make that a false dichotomy, though?

Not at all, Lex orandi, lex credendi  speaks yo thebtule of prayer/how we worship as a testament for what our faith is. This does not presuppose that liturgy can't change, only that the liturgy still reflects our faith in its prayers through song or spoken prayer.

But couldn't a sufficiently motivated individual stretch that broad definition to fit anything from the 1568 Breviary to clown masses? At least the Trads have something concrete that they can point to as reflecting their faith, even if it does seem a bit arbitrary.

Yes but then one has to consider if a clown mass follows the rule of prayer for prayer is respectful and non-sacrilegious. Clown masses are at the very least disrespectful and unbefitting of the mass.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 04:14:36 AM by Wandile »
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #204 on: January 06, 2016, 11:26:20 AM »
so what are your thoughts on the following

In his famous Bull Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V forbade changing the traditional Latin Mass.


Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570:
“Now, therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal published by Us… Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition.  Should any venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”[2

I think very little of it given that that is boilerplate used at the end of virtually every papal bull. The very same pontiff used basically identical wording in Quod a nobis of 1568 to forbid changes to the Roman Breviary. Changes were forthcoming almost immediately, and continued apace until Pius X made radical changes to the distribution of the psalter in 1911. Pius XII and John XXIII continued to hack away at the Breviary through 1960.
you think very little of it but maybe you should rethink
When the New Mass came out in 1969, Cardinals Ottaviani, Bacci, and some other theologians wrote to Paul VI about it.  Keep in mind that what they said about the New Mass concerns the Latin Version, the so-called “most pure” version of the New Mass.  Their study is popularly known as The Ottaviani Intervention.  It states:

“The Novus Ordo [the New Order of Mass] represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session 22 of the Council of Trent.”[4]

They could clearly see that the Latin version of the New Mass was a striking departure from the teaching of the Council of Trent.  Of the twelve offertory prayers in the Traditional Mass, only two are retained in the New Mass.  The deleted offertory prayers are the same ones that the Protestant heretics Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer eliminated.  The New Mass was promulgated by Paul VI with the help of six Protestant Ministers.

The six Protestant Ministers who helped design the New Mass were: Drs. George, Jasper, Shepherd, Kunneth, Smith and Thurian.

Paul VI even admitted to his good friend Jean Guitton that his intention in changing the Mass was to make it Protestant.


Jean Guitton (an intimate friend of Paul VI) wrote: “The intention of Pope Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the [New] Mass, was to reform the Catholic liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy.  There was with Pope Paul VI an ecumenical intention to remove, or, at least to correct, or, at least to relax, what was too Catholic in the traditional sense in the Mass and, I repeat, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist Mass.”[5]

Paul VI removed what was too Catholic in the Mass in order to make the Mass a Protestant service.

To be clear, I actually sympathize with the essential argument of the Ottaviani Intervention, i.e., that the Novus Ordo is a protestantized service and at least implicitly downplays Catholic doctrine. What I disagree with is the legal argument that the NO was illegal based on Quo Primum.
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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #205 on: January 06, 2016, 01:50:49 PM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.

so what are your thoughts on the following

In his famous Bull Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V forbade changing the traditional Latin Mass.


Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570:
“Now, therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal published by Us… Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition.  Should any venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”[2
Doesn't a bishop with authority equal to the bishop who promulgated that bull have the authority to repeal it or choose to not enforce it?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 01:54:37 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #206 on: January 06, 2016, 02:03:23 PM »
IOW, they're doing this:


The only reason we have to do this is because your distortions are the like some one scratching a chalkbord.
Truth one doesn't want to hear always rings unpleasant.
You must know this from experience. How painful is it to you?
When I left Lutheranism, not painful at all.  The balm of Orthodoxy heals all wounds.
Your attacks on Catholics are still very Lutheran. Are you sure you converted?
Quite sure. Have you?
Hmm ... do we really want to get into the Who's-Lutheran question here?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50261.0.html

Apologists for the Vatican are always saying that the Orthodox are just like the Protestants. After all, we both expose the sovereign of Vatican city and his claims for what they are, how can it be otherwise?  ::)

So, pray tell, what differentiates a Lutheran "attack" from an Orthodox "attack" on the Vatican?

If you can't make the distinction, then that exposes the "very Lutheran" for the ad hominem attack that it is.

Followers of the Vatican cannot demonstrate the papal dictate, just give it "religious submission of mind and will...in religious assent."
You are Eastern Orthodox.
I don't think that all Orthodox are protestants. I only think those who continue the Protestant attack on Catholics are Protestants.

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #207 on: January 06, 2016, 02:10:52 PM »
Oh, and I should probably add as a footnote that hardcore traditionalist Catholics scare me just as much as Protestant Orthodox.   :)

Maybe I should have stayed a Quaker.  Get some peace and quiet.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 02:11:08 PM by christiane777 »
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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #208 on: January 06, 2016, 02:12:38 PM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.

Doesn't the principle of Lex orandi, lex credendi make that a false dichotomy, though?

Not at all, Lex orandi, lex credendi  speaks yo thebtule of prayer/how we worship as a testament for what our faith is. This does not presuppose that liturgy can't change, only that the liturgy still reflects our faith in its prayers through song or spoken prayer.

But couldn't a sufficiently motivated individual stretch that broad definition to fit anything from the 1568 Breviary to clown masses? At least the Trads have something concrete that they can point to as reflecting their faith, even if it does seem a bit arbitrary.

Yes but then one has to consider if a clown mass follows the rule of prayer for prayer is respectful and non-sacrilegious. Clown masses are at the very least disrespectful and unbefitting of the mass.

Respectful to whom? From what I've seen, clown masses with their "foolish" overtones are intended to illustrate Christ's turning the world upside down, siding with the poor and afflicted against the powerful. From a certain point of view, one could say that the high splendor of a wealthy Church, much of it provided by prominent patrons who get their money by exploiting the people of God, is disrespectful in the extreme to "the least of these" who can barely afford to get by.

I'm not saying I buy into this reasoning, just saying that the argument can be made.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #209 on: January 06, 2016, 02:18:58 PM »
Oh, and I should probably add as a footnote that hardcore traditionalist Catholics scare me just as much as Protestant Orthodox.   :)

Maybe I should have stayed a Quaker.  Get some peace and quiet.

How are you defining "Protestant Orthodox?" I don't agree with all of Isa's criticisms of the Vatican, but I wouldn't call him anti-authoritarian if that's your point.
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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #210 on: January 06, 2016, 02:21:12 PM »
The real problem with the Novus Ordo isn't that it's heretical compared to the Tridentine mass, but that it is a lot less aesthetically pleasing and far less sublime. Nixing a lot of organically grown liturgical traditions is meh as well.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 02:24:41 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #211 on: January 06, 2016, 02:21:37 PM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.

so what are your thoughts on the following

In his famous Bull Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V forbade changing the traditional Latin Mass.


Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570:
“Now, therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal published by Us… Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition.  Should any venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”[2
Doesn't a bishop with authority equal to the bishop who promulgated that bull have the authority to repeal it or choose to not enforce it?

Yes, which is why subsequent popes have in fact modified the Missal. There does not appear to be any meaningful limit on the Pope's authority to modify the liturgy. Hardcore traditionalists have attempted to create such limits after the appearance of the Novus Ordo, but most of these are unconvincing or simply appeals to tradition, which the Pope is apparently free to ignore, as happened in the creation of the Novus Ordo. Most of the Catholic apologetics crowd simply asserts that there is no actual difference between the two forms of the liturgy, or between the Church before and after Vatican II. The sedevacantist thesis is an interesting attempt to preserve a very ultramontanist view of the papacy and explain how the NO liturgy could have happened, but it ultimately seems like ultramontanism meets the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
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Offline christiane777

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #212 on: January 06, 2016, 02:34:56 PM »
Oh, and I should probably add as a footnote that hardcore traditionalist Catholics scare me just as much as Protestant Orthodox.   :)

Maybe I should have stayed a Quaker.  Get some peace and quiet.

How are you defining "Protestant Orthodox?" I don't agree with all of Isa's criticisms of the Vatican, but I wouldn't call him anti-authoritarian if that's your point.

Oh no, I am not talking about anyone in particular in this discussion or on this thread.  Let's just say I can spot a convert to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism a mile away.  Just where the tone is coming from and the attitude towards Catholics; the roots show; they are alive and well in their newly adopted home.  For all I know Catholic converts do the same thing...but I do honestly feel that there is more common ground there (papal spat aside of course).

Re traditional Latin Mass - I do respect the beauty and integrity of the traditional Latin Mass and would love to see it make a comeback.  But for me this is just one facet of being a Catholic or more to the point, being a Christian.  I think too much emphasis on liturgy for its own sake can deteriorate into a sort of aestheticism rather than a healthy balanced more active form of Christianity.  My Mass has Latin in it; it is quasi traditional for all I know.  And it works for me.  It's like the people who tell you you can't listen to Amazing Grace in Mass because it is Protestant.  Nuts as far as I am concerned.  It is a beautiful grace filled hymn.
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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #213 on: January 06, 2016, 02:48:41 PM »
Oh, and I should probably add as a footnote that hardcore traditionalist Catholics scare me just as much as Protestant Orthodox.   :)

Maybe I should have stayed a Quaker.  Get some peace and quiet.

How are you defining "Protestant Orthodox?" I don't agree with all of Isa's criticisms of the Vatican, but I wouldn't call him anti-authoritarian if that's your point.

Oh no, I am not talking about anyone in particular in this discussion or on this thread.  Let's just say I can spot a convert to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism a mile away.  Just where the tone is coming from and the attitude towards Catholics; the roots show; they are alive and well in their newly adopted home.  For all I know Catholic converts do the same thing...but I do honestly feel that there is more common ground there (papal spat aside of course).

Re traditional Latin Mass - I do respect the beauty and integrity of the traditional Latin Mass and would love to see it make a comeback.  But for me this is just one facet of being a Catholic or more to the point, being a Christian.  I think too much emphasis on liturgy for its own sake can deteriorate into a sort of aestheticism rather than a healthy balanced more active form of Christianity.  My Mass has Latin in it; it is quasi traditional for all I know.  And it works for me.  It's like the people who tell you you can't listen to Amazing Grace in Mass because it is Protestant.  Nuts as far as I am concerned.  It is a beautiful grace filled hymn.

Oh, ok. Point taken :)
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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #214 on: January 06, 2016, 03:59:13 PM »
so what are your thoughts on the following

In his famous Bull Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V forbade changing the traditional Latin Mass.


Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570:
“Now, therefore, in order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches, it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal published by Us… Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition.  Should any venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”[2

I think very little of it given that that is boilerplate used at the end of virtually every papal bull. The very same pontiff used basically identical wording in Quod a nobis of 1568 to forbid changes to the Roman Breviary. Changes were forthcoming almost immediately, and continued apace until Pius X made radical changes to the distribution of the psalter in 1911. Pius XII and John XXIII continued to hack away at the Breviary through 1960.

Good points

If there is one thing that is constant in the Roman Church, it is change.

However, Orthodox Christians are quick to quote that our unchanging Faith and Traditions (including the Divine Liturgy) were given to us by Christ to His Apostles for all times and for all peoples.

The Roman Liturgy has had dramatic changes ever since 300 AD, and it became so bad that Pope St. Gregory had to standardize the Mass. Then within a few hundred years, by 800 AD, it had undergone many changes among them the deletion of the Trisagion in all but the Holy Friday Service. Also there were changes allowing the use of unleavened bread, the giving of the "Body" only to the laity, the forbidding of young children to approach the chalice "until the age of reason," and the insertion of the filioque to the Nicene Creed.  Then, by the mid 1960s, the Trisagion in the Good Friday service was totally deleted.
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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #215 on: January 06, 2016, 04:04:21 PM »
The real problem with the Novus Ordo isn't that it's heretical compared to the Tridentine mass, but that it is a lot less aesthetically pleasing and far less sublime. Nixing a lot of organically grown liturgical traditions is meh as well.

The real problem with the Novus Ordo is that it was taken almost word by word from the Lutheran Hymnal of 1904.  My husband and I were able to take that book home and study it for about two weeks. We had bookmarked several pages, and when our confessor saw those pages, he refused to say the Novus Ordo from that point on. After viewing those pages, the priest tossed that book into the burning fireplace.

Catholics, in effect, have protestantized their liturgy.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 04:09:47 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #216 on: January 06, 2016, 04:09:05 PM »
The real problem with the Novus Ordo isn't that it's heretical compared to the Tridentine mass, but that it is a lot less aesthetically pleasing and far less sublime. Nixing a lot of organically grown liturgical traditions is meh as well.

The real problem with the Novus Ordo is that it was taken almost word by word from the Lutheran Hymnal of 1904. I saw a copy of it before my confessor (at that time) tossed it into the burning fireplace. However, my husband and I were able to take that book home and study it for about two weeks. We had bookmarked several pages, and when our confessor saw those pages, he refused to say the Novus Ordo from that point on.

Catholics, in effect, have protestantized their liturgy.

You mean the one you've been looking for for almost a decade now?

How's that been working out for you?  You said in this post that you "saw" one but 9 years ago you just "read" about it.

Which one is it?

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #217 on: January 06, 2016, 04:11:15 PM »
The real problem with the Novus Ordo isn't that it's heretical compared to the Tridentine mass, but that it is a lot less aesthetically pleasing and far less sublime. Nixing a lot of organically grown liturgical traditions is meh as well.

The real problem with the Novus Ordo is that it was taken almost word by word from the Lutheran Hymnal of 1904. I saw a copy of it before my confessor (at that time) tossed it into the burning fireplace. However, my husband and I were able to take that book home and study it for about two weeks. We had bookmarked several pages, and when our confessor saw those pages, he refused to say the Novus Ordo from that point on.

Catholics, in effect, have protestantized their liturgy.

You mean the one you've been looking for for almost a decade now?

How's that been working out for you?  You said in this post that you "saw" one but 9 years ago you just "read" about it.

Which one is it?

We had the book in our possession, and read it from cover to cover. That was back in 1995.  If we had known that the priest would have taken the book from us and tossed it in the fireplace, we would have copied it.

Here is proof that the 1904 Lutheran Hymnal did exist:

http://www.hymnary.org/denomination/454
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 04:25:51 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #218 on: January 06, 2016, 04:12:34 PM »
From what I have read in searches for that book, only a few copies remain in museums only.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #219 on: January 06, 2016, 04:21:45 PM »
Oh, I just discovered a pdf document on some of the hymns in that Lutheran Hymnal. some of which are sung at Catholic Masses.

Why are Catholics singing "the Battle Hymn of the Reformation"?

Note: "This is a hymn of all Protestantism, not just Lutheranism."

So, why are Catholics singing this in Catholic Masses?

Quote
A Mighty Fortress Is Our God (262)
This is called the Battle Hymn of the Reformation.
There are various views of the time and place of origin.
There is weighty evidence that it was composed in1529
for the Diet of Spires when the German princes made
formal “protest” against the revocation of their liberties
and received the name “Protestants”. It is based on the
theme of Psalm 46; some verses are reminiscent of the
text. The tune is Luther’s as well. This is a hymn of all
Protestantism, not just Lutheranism. ...
 

See page three of the pdf document
http://atlanta.clclutheran.org/bibleclass/Hymns%20of%20Martin%20Luther.pdf
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 04:22:20 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #220 on: January 06, 2016, 04:45:47 PM »
The real problem with the Novus Ordo isn't that it's heretical compared to the Tridentine mass, but that it is a lot less aesthetically pleasing and far less sublime. Nixing a lot of organically grown liturgical traditions is meh as well.

The real problem with the Novus Ordo is that it was taken almost word by word from the Lutheran Hymnal of 1904. I saw a copy of it before my confessor (at that time) tossed it into the burning fireplace. However, my husband and I were able to take that book home and study it for about two weeks. We had bookmarked several pages, and when our confessor saw those pages, he refused to say the Novus Ordo from that point on.

Catholics, in effect, have protestantized their liturgy.

You mean the one you've been looking for for almost a decade now?

How's that been working out for you?  You said in this post that you "saw" one but 9 years ago you just "read" about it.

Which one is it?

We had the book in our possession, and read it from cover to cover. That was back in 1995.  If we had known that the priest would have taken the book from us and tossed it in the fireplace, we would have copied it.

Here is proof that the 1904 Lutheran Hymnal did exist:

http://www.hymnary.org/denomination/454

No, this proves that the Missouri Synod published a Lutheran hymnal in German with some partial English translation.

Your assertion is that the Novus Ordo is a word-for-word translation of this hymnal.  That's preposterous, as this is a *hymnal* and not a liturgical book, per se. 

This is not the first time you've been taken to task for this on here and I doubt it will be the last.
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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #221 on: January 06, 2016, 04:48:07 PM »
From what I have read in searches for that book, only a few copies remain in museums only.

And yet here's one for sale on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Lieder-Perlen-Sammlung-geistlichen-gemischten-Schulen/dp/B000T4CMEY
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #222 on: January 06, 2016, 04:52:00 PM »
just in case there are novus order catholics here that go to the novus order mass,I'll resurrect this thread, been a couple of years since I posted here

Don't worry, I'm sure Wandile is working furiously on writing a hasty attempt to refute your posts as we speak.

Lol nah I'm not too interested in ultra trads and whatever they get up to or think. I will say though that a Pope can over turn a decree of a previous pope and that is exactly what Pope Paul VI did. The only decrees that can't be overturned are doctrinal ones that are binding on the church. Decrees on the liturgy are not doctrine or dogma. But trades would have you think so.

Doesn't the principle of Lex orandi, lex credendi make that a false dichotomy, though?

Not at all, Lex orandi, lex credendi  speaks yo thebtule of prayer/how we worship as a testament for what our faith is. This does not presuppose that liturgy can't change, only that the liturgy still reflects our faith in its prayers through song or spoken prayer.

But couldn't a sufficiently motivated individual stretch that broad definition to fit anything from the 1568 Breviary to clown masses? At least the Trads have something concrete that they can point to as reflecting their faith, even if it does seem a bit arbitrary.

Yes but then one has to consider if a clown mass follows the rule of prayer for prayer is respectful and non-sacrilegious. Clown masses are at the very least disrespectful and unbefitting of the mass.

Respectful to whom? From what I've seen, clown masses with their "foolish" overtones are intended to illustrate Christ's turning the world upside down, siding with the poor and afflicted against the powerful. From a certain point of view, one could say that the high splendor of a wealthy Church, much of it provided by prominent patrons who get their money by exploiting the people of God, is disrespectful in the extreme to "the least of these" who can barely afford to get by.

I'm not saying I buy into this reasoning, just saying that the argument can be made.

You could probably also argue just as convincingly for the existence of cisgendered half-unicorn half-cat centaurish creatures which live in Belarus and only eat hippopotamus fetuses they order through Amazon. 
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Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #223 on: January 06, 2016, 04:52:59 PM »
This is not the first time you've been taken to task for this on here and I doubt it will be the last.

She posted several times in succession in response to your initial challenge.  You won. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: The Next Pope & the Latin Mass ..
« Reply #224 on: January 06, 2016, 06:33:21 PM »
The real problem with the Novus Ordo isn't that it's heretical compared to the Tridentine mass, but that it is a lot less aesthetically pleasing and far less sublime. Nixing a lot of organically grown liturgical traditions is meh as well.

The real problem with the Novus Ordo is that it was taken almost word by word from the Lutheran Hymnal of 1904.  My husband and I were able to take that book home and study it for about two weeks. We had bookmarked several pages, and when our confessor saw those pages, he refused to say the Novus Ordo from that point on. After viewing those pages, the priest tossed that book into the burning fireplace.

Catholics, in effect, have protestantized their liturgy.
One would have to establish what is a Protestant liturgy.  Since Protestants descend from the Roman tradition it should not be surprising that the liturgies resemble one another.  The Protestant liturgies I am familiar with have the Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Institution Narrative, Lord's Prayer, just like the Roman Rite modern and old.  Of course, since Protestants object to certain Catholic dogmas these references are removed from their prayers, not so the Novus Ordo.  Of the prayers actually removed from the Novus Ordo most were Gallican additions or private devotional prayers of the priest that crept in.
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