Author Topic: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....  (Read 8479 times)

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Offline freddief

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The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« on: March 04, 2013, 06:51:07 PM »
"For Your sake I bore disgrace; humiliation covered my face.  I am become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons; for the zeal of Your house consumed me, and the insults of those who disgraced You fell on me"

Psalm 68:8-10, Orthodox Study Bible page 726

Offline biro

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 06:55:45 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 06:57:05 PM »
There's always that one person who thinks they have the cat in the bag and it will somehow be so epic that it will send shockwaves throughout the universe.  :laugh:
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Offline choy

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 06:59:42 PM »
An alien to my mother's sons talks about alienation from all Jewish people, not a literal "sons of Mary".  Besides, if Jesus was rejected by his brothers, why was James the bishop of Jerusalem?  Why did he have an Epistle in the Bible?

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 07:00:59 PM »
Well I guess that tears it, since that was the final proof :P
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Offline biro

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 07:19:24 PM »
Well I guess that tears it, since that was the final proof :P

Oh no! I'm shocked, shocked I tell you! Now I will become a megachurcher and believe whatever Benny Hinn tells me!

 :o :o
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Offline LBK

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 07:25:15 PM »
Your assertion proves nothing.

In ancient cultures, the words children, brothers, sisters did not necessarily mean fruits of one's womb or one's siblings. What does St Paul mean when he opens his epistles with Brethren or My child Timothy? Does he share a biological mother with all those present? Did he physically beget Timothy? Of course not.

Even today, many cultures retain this broad meaning to refer to members of their extended family.
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Offline freddief

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 07:36:47 PM »
An alien to my mother's sons talks about alienation from all Jewish people, not a literal "sons of Mary".  Besides, if Jesus was rejected by his brothers, why was James the bishop of Jerusalem?  Why did he have an Epistle in the Bible?
well if its a question of alienation from all Jewish people, as you suggest, how come James was bishop in Jerusalem?  how come there was a church in Jerusalem for that matter?

Offline choy

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 07:40:12 PM »
An alien to my mother's sons talks about alienation from all Jewish people, not a literal "sons of Mary".  Besides, if Jesus was rejected by his brothers, why was James the bishop of Jerusalem?  Why did he have an Epistle in the Bible?
well if its a question of alienation from all Jewish people, as you suggest, how come James was bishop in Jerusalem?  how come there was a church in Jerusalem for that matter?

Read Acts thoroughly and then come back to me.  It is all there.

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 07:42:43 PM »
"For Your sake I bore disgrace; humiliation covered my face.  I am become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons; for the zeal of Your house consumed me, and the insults of those who disgraced You fell on me"

Psalm 68:8-10, Orthodox Study Bible page 726
Whereas a Psalm can be considered prophetic of Christ, prophecy was not the primary purpose of the Psalms. For instance, this passage from Psalm 68 was not written to speak directly of the future Messiah; rather, it was written primarily to speak of issues the psalmist faced while he was writing the Psalm. We see in this Psalm imagery that we also see to some degree in Jesus Christ, but that can't be seen as proof of any position for or against Mary's ever-virginity.
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Offline freddief

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 07:51:16 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 07:57:33 PM by freddief »

Offline freddief

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 07:56:21 PM »
Your assertion proves nothing.

In ancient cultures, the words children, brothers, sisters did not necessarily mean fruits of one's womb or one's siblings. What does St Paul mean when he opens his epistles with Brethren or My child Timothy? Does he share a biological mother with all those present? Did he physically beget Timothy? Of course not.

Even today, many cultures retain this broad meaning to refer to members of their extended family.
i would suggest that none of this extends to the phrase "my mother's sons"

Offline biro

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 07:57:41 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline freddief

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2013, 07:59:36 PM »
An alien to my mother's sons talks about alienation from all Jewish people, not a literal "sons of Mary".  Besides, if Jesus was rejected by his brothers, why was James the bishop of Jerusalem?  Why did he have an Epistle in the Bible?
well if its a question of alienation from all Jewish people, as you suggest, how come James was bishop in Jerusalem?  how come there was a church in Jerusalem for that matter?

Read Acts thoroughly and then come back to me.  It is all there.



I know whats in Acts.  please read carefully what i wrote, and the point i was answering

Offline biro

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2013, 08:01:29 PM »
An alien to my mother's sons talks about alienation from all Jewish people, not a literal "sons of Mary".  Besides, if Jesus was rejected by his brothers, why was James the bishop of Jerusalem?  Why did he have an Epistle in the Bible?
well if its a question of alienation from all Jewish people, as you suggest, how come James was bishop in Jerusalem?  how come there was a church in Jerusalem for that matter?

Read Acts thoroughly and then come back to me.  It is all there.



I know whats in Acts.  please read carefully what i wrote, and the point i was answering

Freddie, are you just some kid fresh out of Bible camp? Did you just come here because you've been told the Orthodox are bad or something?

Do you even know what you are talking about?
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline erimos

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 08:05:59 PM »
This is a divisive topic that achieves nothing other than fuelling pride and is a form of trolling.

Offline freddief

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2013, 08:08:38 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 08:10:01 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Jesus is called the Son of David, even though Joseph was not his father. So is Jesus really the Son of David?
"ALL THE GODS OF THE HINDUS ARE DEMONS HAHAHAHAHA!!"

Offline choy

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2013, 08:10:05 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

By Jewish Law, Joseph is Jesus' father.

Offline choy

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 08:10:53 PM »
An alien to my mother's sons talks about alienation from all Jewish people, not a literal "sons of Mary".  Besides, if Jesus was rejected by his brothers, why was James the bishop of Jerusalem?  Why did he have an Epistle in the Bible?
well if its a question of alienation from all Jewish people, as you suggest, how come James was bishop in Jerusalem?  how come there was a church in Jerusalem for that matter?

Read Acts thoroughly and then come back to me.  It is all there.



I know whats in Acts.  please read carefully what i wrote, and the point i was answering

I read it carefully.  Clearly you do not know Acts, otherwise you woulnd't ask questions like how there was a Church in Jerusalem or why James was the bishop there.

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2013, 08:11:30 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

By Jewish Law, Joseph is Jesus' father.


^^^ Exactly, this.
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Offline biro

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2013, 08:11:49 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Did you ever see 'The Brady Bunch'?

He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline freddief

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2013, 08:15:40 PM »
"For Your sake I bore disgrace; humiliation covered my face.  I am become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons; for the zeal of Your house consumed me, and the insults of those who disgraced You fell on me"

Psalm 68:8-10, Orthodox Study Bible page 726
Whereas a Psalm can be considered prophetic of Christ, prophecy was not the primary purpose of the Psalms. For instance, this passage from Psalm 68 was not written to speak directly of the future Messiah; rather, it was written primarily to speak of issues the psalmist faced while he was writing the Psalm. We see in this Psalm imagery that we also see to some degree in Jesus Christ, but that can't be seen as proof of any position for or against Mary's ever-virginity.
Thank you for your non-mocking response.  at least you are prepared to consider the issue and the point i'm making.  I will make a proper response later

Offline freddief

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2013, 08:18:12 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Jesus is called the Son of David, even though Joseph was not his father. So is Jesus really the Son of David?
The Lord Jesus was indeed a son of David in that he was a descendant of David.  He was not a descendant of Joseph

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2013, 08:20:29 PM »
The Lord Jesus was indeed a son of David in that he was a descendant of David.  He was not a descendant of Joseph

As Judaism does not accept the Incarnation, Jesus to them is Joseph's son. I bet he wouldn't go about Nazareth saying otherwise.
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Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2013, 08:21:25 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Jesus is called the Son of David, even though Joseph was not his father. So is Jesus really the Son of David?
The Lord Jesus was indeed a son of David in that he was a descendant of David.  He was not a descendant of Joseph

My point was, he was not biologically the Son of David, because he was not Joseph's descendant. Joseph was descendant of King David. By law, He (Christ) was; but biologically, He was not. The Theotokos was not a descendant of King David.

The point being; by law, Christ had half-siblings, even if it was not biologically so.
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Offline biro

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2013, 08:21:37 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Jesus is called the Son of David, even though Joseph was not his father. So is Jesus really the Son of David?
The Lord Jesus was indeed a son of David in that he was a descendant of David.  He was not a descendant of Joseph

Are you aware that proselytizing isn't allowed here? Why did you come to an Orthodox board to 'prove' to Orthodox people that what they believe is wrong?
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2013, 08:22:49 PM »
"For Your sake I bore disgrace; humiliation covered my face.  I am become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons; for the zeal of Your house consumed me, and the insults of those who disgraced You fell on me"

Psalm 68:8-10, Orthodox Study Bible page 726
Whereas a Psalm can be considered prophetic of Christ, prophecy was not the primary purpose of the Psalms. For instance, this passage from Psalm 68 was not written to speak directly of the future Messiah; rather, it was written primarily to speak of issues the psalmist faced while he was writing the Psalm. We see in this Psalm imagery that we also see to some degree in Jesus Christ, but that can't be seen as proof of any position for or against Mary's ever-virginity.
Thank you for your non-mocking response.  at least you are prepared to consider the issue and the point i'm making.  I will make a proper response later

No one is mocking you. Questioning you does not equal mocking.
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Offline freddief

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2013, 08:24:25 PM »
An alien to my mother's sons talks about alienation from all Jewish people, not a literal "sons of Mary".  Besides, if Jesus was rejected by his brothers, why was James the bishop of Jerusalem?  Why did he have an Epistle in the Bible?
well if its a question of alienation from all Jewish people, as you suggest, how come James was bishop in Jerusalem?  how come there was a church in Jerusalem for that matter?

Read Acts thoroughly and then come back to me.  It is all there.



I know whats in Acts.  please read carefully what i wrote, and the point i was answering

I read it carefully.  Clearly you do not know Acts, otherwise you woulnd't ask questions like how there was a Church in Jerusalem or why James was the bishop there.
oh dear - you were the one who first asked why James was bishop of Jerusalem  ::)  you seem to have missd my point completely :(

Offline biro

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2013, 08:25:02 PM »
We don't believe your point. We've been reading it since the top of the page.
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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2013, 08:26:47 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Jesus is called the Son of David, even though Joseph was not his father. So is Jesus really the Son of David?
The Lord Jesus was indeed a son of David in that he was a descendant of David.  He was not a descendant of Joseph

Are you aware that proselytizing isn't allowed here? Why did you come to an Orthodox board to 'prove' to Orthodox people that what they believe is wrong?
Freddie isn't proselytizing, so please stop playing Miss Moderator.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline biro

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2013, 08:28:07 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Jesus is called the Son of David, even though Joseph was not his father. So is Jesus really the Son of David?
The Lord Jesus was indeed a son of David in that he was a descendant of David.  He was not a descendant of Joseph

Are you aware that proselytizing isn't allowed here? Why did you come to an Orthodox board to 'prove' to Orthodox people that what they believe is wrong?
Freddie isn't proselytizing, so please stop playing Miss Moderator.

All right, but I thought the thread title made it clear enough.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2013, 08:30:29 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Jesus is called the Son of David, even though Joseph was not his father. So is Jesus really the Son of David?
The Lord Jesus was indeed a son of David in that he was a descendant of David.  He was not a descendant of Joseph

Are you aware that proselytizing isn't allowed here? Why did you come to an Orthodox board to 'prove' to Orthodox people that what they believe is wrong?
Freddie isn't proselytizing, so please stop playing Miss Moderator.

All right, but I thought the thread title made it clear enough.
I notice that you aren't Orthodox, either, so why are you fighting so hard to defend the Orthodox Faith on this thread?
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Offline biro

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2013, 08:33:07 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Jesus is called the Son of David, even though Joseph was not his father. So is Jesus really the Son of David?
The Lord Jesus was indeed a son of David in that he was a descendant of David.  He was not a descendant of Joseph

Are you aware that proselytizing isn't allowed here? Why did you come to an Orthodox board to 'prove' to Orthodox people that what they believe is wrong?
Freddie isn't proselytizing, so please stop playing Miss Moderator.

All right, but I thought the thread title made it clear enough.
I notice that you aren't Orthodox, either, so why are you fighting so hard to defend the Orthodox Faith on this thread?

I didn't think I was. I just thought Freddie may post stuff like Alfred P. used to do, and get himself in more confusion than he has to, simply because Freddie didn't post very much before, and maybe he hasn't seen some of our earlier discussions on the subject. I mean, it just sounded like he didn't know what he was getting into.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 08:33:26 PM by biro »
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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2013, 08:39:36 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Jesus is called the Son of David, even though Joseph was not his father. So is Jesus really the Son of David?
The Lord Jesus was indeed a son of David in that he was a descendant of David.  He was not a descendant of Joseph

Are you aware that proselytizing isn't allowed here? Why did you come to an Orthodox board to 'prove' to Orthodox people that what they believe is wrong?
Freddie isn't proselytizing, so please stop playing Miss Moderator.

All right, but I thought the thread title made it clear enough.
I notice that you aren't Orthodox, either, so why are you fighting so hard to defend the Orthodox Faith on this thread?

I didn't think I was. I just thought Freddie may post stuff like Alfred P. used to do, and get himself in more confusion than he has to, simply because Freddie didn't post very much before, and maybe he hasn't seen some of our earlier discussions on the subject. I mean, it just sounded like he didn't know what he was getting into.
To be honest, biro, I don't think your tactics on this thread are helping any.
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Offline biro

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2013, 08:41:21 PM »
I'm sorry.
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Offline orthros

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2013, 08:46:36 PM »
In fairness, I was ready to jump in as well, even though I'm not Orthodox.  One doesn't need to be Orthodox to want to defend the Theotokos' perpetual virginity; it's not exclusive to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2013, 08:46:47 PM »
Your assertion proves nothing.

In ancient cultures, the words children, brothers, sisters did not necessarily mean fruits of one's womb or one's siblings.

Who knew I lived in an ancient culture?
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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2013, 08:48:17 PM »
In fairness, I was ready to jump in as well, even though I'm not Orthodox.  One doesn't need to be Orthodox to want to defend the Theotokos' perpetual virginity; it's not exclusive to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Yeah. I can understand anyone wanting to defend their Mom  :)
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Offline freddief

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2013, 09:24:32 PM »
"For Your sake I bore disgrace; humiliation covered my face.  I am become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons; for the zeal of Your house consumed me, and the insults of those who disgraced You fell on me"

Psalm 68:8-10, Orthodox Study Bible page 726
Whereas a Psalm can be considered prophetic of Christ, prophecy was not the primary purpose of the Psalms. For instance, this passage from Psalm 68 was not written to speak directly of the future Messiah; rather, it was written primarily to speak of issues the psalmist faced while he was writing the Psalm. We see in this Psalm imagery that we also see to some degree in Jesus Christ, but that can't be seen as proof of any position for or against Mary's ever-virginity.
I understand what you're saying, but would have thought that prophesy in relation to the Lord was as primary as any other purpose of the psalms.  The quotation I have given is all related to Christ.  We know the zeal of God's house consumed him - John 2:17.  This is absolutely a direct prophesy. 

We know also about the disgrace, humiliation and insults he endured.  They called him a glutton, a drunkard, a blasphemer, a Samaritan (a dreadful insult, apparently), claimed he operated by the power of Satan, and was in fact possessed of a demon.  Finally they had him nailed to the cross, a death of shame and total humiliation.  I can give you scripture for all of this, but know you probably believe it. 

We also know he became a "stranger to his brothers", in that they did not believe him - John 7:5.  In view of this, I can't see why the thought of becoming "an alien to his mother's sons" should not relate to him as well.  It's a big ask if that's what you're asking me to believe.

Anyway I was just reading the psalm the other day, and wondered what the perpetual virginity people thought of it

Offline freddief

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2013, 09:31:06 PM »
Oh boy, here we go.

Someone please explain to him about St. Joseph's previous marriage, and what half-siblings are?
but any children Joseph had by a previous marriage would not have been the Lord's half-siblings, unless Joseph himself sired the Lord.  the Lord Jesus had no half-siblings

The Orthodox believe that He did.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the first time you even heard about that, and I'll bet you didn't even do any research on what the Orthodox think about it, before coming to an Orthodox board. You just came to spam people.
look, if they did not have the same father (they didn't) and if they did not have the same mother (they didn't), then how could they be half-siblings?

Jesus is called the Son of David, even though Joseph was not his father. So is Jesus really the Son of David?
The Lord Jesus was indeed a son of David in that he was a descendant of David.  He was not a descendant of Joseph

My point was, he was not biologically the Son of David, because he was not Joseph's descendant. Joseph was descendant of King David. By law, He (Christ) was; but biologically, He was not. The Theotokos was not a descendant of King David.

The point being; by law, Christ had half-siblings, even if it was not biologically so.
I understand your point, from the legal perspective

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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2013, 09:32:44 PM »
"For Your sake I bore disgrace; humiliation covered my face.  I am become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons; for the zeal of Your house consumed me, and the insults of those who disgraced You fell on me"

Psalm 68:8-10, Orthodox Study Bible page 726
Whereas a Psalm can be considered prophetic of Christ, prophecy was not the primary purpose of the Psalms. For instance, this passage from Psalm 68 was not written to speak directly of the future Messiah; rather, it was written primarily to speak of issues the psalmist faced while he was writing the Psalm. We see in this Psalm imagery that we also see to some degree in Jesus Christ, but that can't be seen as proof of any position for or against Mary's ever-virginity.
I understand what you're saying, but would have thought that prophesy in relation to the Lord was as primary as any other purpose of the psalms.
By definition, there can only be one primary purpose. There can be a number of secondary purposes, but only one primary purpose.

The quotation I have given is all related to Christ.  We know the zeal of God's house consumed him - John 2:17.  This is absolutely a direct prophesy.
So you think then that the first purpose of this Psalm was to prophesy that the zeal of God's house would consume Him? Could not the same thing be said for Zerubabbel or Ezra or someone else who helped reconstruct the Temple after the exile?

We know also about the disgrace, humiliation and insults he endured.  They called him a glutton, a drunkard, a blasphemer, a Samaritan (a dreadful insult, apparently), claimed he operated by the power of Satan, and was in fact possessed of a demon.  Finally they had him nailed to the cross, a death of shame and total humiliation.  I can give you scripture for all of this, but know you probably believe it.  

We also know he became a "stranger to his brothers", in that they did not believe him - John 7:5.  In view of this, I can't see why the thought of becoming "an alien to his mother's sons" should not relate to him as well.  It's a big ask if that's what you're asking me to believe.

Anyway I was just reading the psalm the other day, and wondered what the perpetual virginity people thought of it
I think we need to understand the Psalms first within their historical context and only secondarily as prophecies of Christ. Even then, we need to be very careful not to draw from the Psalms proof texts for Christological dogmas that contradict the faith given us by the Apostles and Fathers of the Church.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 09:33:15 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2013, 09:35:52 PM »
This is a perfect example of how Orthonorm said that Americans don't pay enough attention to the context of a text and to literary devices. I could think of several rebuttals to the OP's argument. Firstly, you could argue as Biro did that it was referring to Jesus' half brotherrs from St. Joseph's previous marriage (s), which would have been the Theotokos' stepchildren, or you could argue that "my mother's children" actually refers to Israel and the Jews, that the nation of Israel was the "mother" and that the "children" are the Jews, and that Jesus became a shame to them because they crucified Him and thus became guilty. Or, you could simply argue that the Psalm was using imagery and symbolism to emphasize the pain that Christ endured.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2013, 09:36:36 PM »
"For Your sake I bore disgrace; humiliation covered my face.  I am become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons; for the zeal of Your house consumed me, and the insults of those who disgraced You fell on me"

Psalm 68:8-10, Orthodox Study Bible page 726

From the same Psalm:

O God, You know my foolishness;
And my sins are not hidden from You.

Conclusion: Christ was clearly a sinner. Christianity is over.  ::)
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Re: The Final Proof: Mary had several children.....
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2013, 09:41:46 PM »
Am I the only one who finds it derogatory when Protestants say "mary" and don't even capitalize it? Something about the casual way they say or type it when speaking or typing something about her seems very disrespectful and I can't exactly put my finger on it.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.