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Author Topic: Explaining to my Mother why I can't go to a Protestant college  (Read 827 times) Average Rating: 0
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Android_Rewster
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« on: March 04, 2013, 02:14:19 PM »

 Any tips here? She wants me to go to Moody Bible and at first I was okay with that, but I just read their doctrinal requirements, and I can't honestly sign a contract saying that I agree. Sad

 What should I do?

 Also, sorry if this is the wrong forum. I didn't know which to opt for.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 02:14:44 PM by Android_Rewster » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 02:23:15 PM »

Quote
What should I do?
"Mom, I understand you want me to go to Moody, however I cant sign a doctrine agreement that I dont agree with. I dont want to lie to them and waste my time and theirs."
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 02:24:47 PM »

Any tips here? She wants me to go to Moody Bible and at first I was okay with that, but I just read their doctrinal requirements, and I can't honestly sign a contract saying that I agree. Sad

What should I do?

 Also, sorry if this is the wrong forum. I didn't know which to opt for.
You might point out that John Maddex, the founder of Ancient Faith Radio, used to run Moody Bible Radio, and he was forced to leave by Moody because of his conversion to being Orthodox, although they found out only through the grapevine, and it didn't affect his work (the parting was, in his words "very amicable" and on "generous terms").  They just insisted because the decided that he couldn't meet their doctrinal requirements (he had signed such things when still a Protestant, and I don't think he found much of a problem, looking back, on what the contract said.  They may have changed the contract, due to the numbers of those who have converted to Orthodoxy as of late).  My priest, Fr. Patrick Reardon, has spoken there on occasion.

And the Diocesan Center, complete with Church, of the OCA Diocese of the Midwest is across the street, so it's not like sending you to Moody is going to isolate you from Orthodox influence.

Btw, what requirements are causing the problem?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 02:25:31 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 03:06:38 PM »

I just read the doctrinal statement here: http://www.moodyministries.net/crp_MainPage.aspx?id=334

Additionally, from their undergraduate catalog:  http://www.moody.edu/uploadedFiles/Education/Library/undergraduate_catalog.pdf

Quote
Doctrinal Qualifications For Students
To maintain continuity and consistency with the heritage entrusted to its care, Moody
Bible Institute requires its faculty and administration to agree with, personally adhere
to, and support all the school’s doctrinal distinctives. These identify what is believed and
taught in our classes. However, the school also recognizes that its specific theological posi-
tions do not define orthodoxy for the whole body of Christ. For this reason, Moody Bible
Institute accepts students from other theological traditions within conservative evangeli-
calism
. However, to be admitted and to graduate, students must personally adhere to and
support the following doctrinal positions:
 the inspiration, authority, and inerrancy of Scripture,
 the Trinity,
 the full deity and full humanity of Christ,
 the creation of the human race in the image of God,
 the spiritual lostness of the human race,
 the substitutionary atonement and bodily resurrection of Christ,
 salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone,
 the physical and imminent return of Christ, and
 the eternal reward of the righteous and the eternal judgment of the lost.

I wouldn't be keen on going there either. 

(In the above quote the emphasis is mine.)
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 03:07:30 PM »

Any tips here? She wants me to go to Moody Bible and at first I was okay with that, but I just read their doctrinal requirements, and I can't honestly sign a contract saying that I agree. Sad

 What should I do?

 Also, sorry if this is the wrong forum. I didn't know which to opt for.
The decision regarding what college you want to attend is an adult decision, since you're most likely going to be of an adult age before you even start college. Therefore, the decision is yours and yours alone. You can and should allow your parents to speak their opinions, and you should give their opinions some consideration, but the decision is ultimately yours. If you decide to go to a school your parents don't want you to attend, just find a kind way to tell them what I just told you. Once you are an adult, the call to honor your parents no longer means that you owe them your unconditional obedience.
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 03:40:52 PM »

Btw, what requirements are causing the problem?

 The following is their doctrinal requirements:
Quote
    the inspiration, authority and inerrancy of Scripture
    the Trinity
    the full deity and full humanity of Christ
    the creation of the human race in the image of God
    the spiritual lostness of the human race
    the substitutionary atonement and bodily resurrection of Christ
    salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone
    the physical and imminent return of Christ
    the eternal reward of the righteous and the eternal judgment of the lost
Normally, I wouldn't have a problem with (most of) this stuff. But given the context that they're primarily protestant, I don't think I could agree to the statement on grace and faith alone. Nor the eternal aspect of heaven and hell(although that's more of speculation, and not very Orthodox). There was another thing in there that I didn't like, but I forgot it.
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 03:46:12 PM »

i had to sign a statement of faith to have some very minor leadership role in an ecumenical professional Christian society. they initially said they are ecumenical so catholics could join as long as they were 'evangelical'. i explained that orthodox Christianity was not exactly the same as catholic Christianity, but i think that point was lost on them. so i signed the statement conditionally; explaining in an accompanying note what i understood as an orthodox Christian by salvation, faith etc.
they didn't get back to me...
 Wink

so, maybe if you contact someone in the college to discuss your viewpoint and see if they would accept it, then you will later be able to tell your parents for sure if you would or would not be accepted. so there would be no pretense or uncertainty involved.
may God guide u and bless u.
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 09:54:49 PM »

Just tell her flat out and fast like a band-aid. I once had a teacher when I was a Protestant who went to Moody Bible College. She was crazy. Don't go there.
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 10:07:13 PM »

Where you go to college needs to be your decision. If she opts not to help you finacially, be prepared for that.
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 10:35:43 PM »

Complete the courses at a Community College..
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 10:38:18 PM by WPM » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 11:03:18 PM »

I just read the doctrinal statement here: http://www.moodyministries.net/crp_MainPage.aspx?id=334

Additionally, from their undergraduate catalog:  http://www.moody.edu/uploadedFiles/Education/Library/undergraduate_catalog.pdf

Quote
Doctrinal Qualifications For Students
To maintain continuity and consistency with the heritage entrusted to its care, Moody
Bible Institute requires its faculty and administration to agree with, personally adhere
to, and support all the school’s doctrinal distinctives. These identify what is believed and
taught in our classes. However, the school also recognizes that its specific theological posi-
tions do not define orthodoxy for the whole body of Christ. For this reason, Moody Bible
Institute accepts students from other theological traditions within conservative evangeli-
calism
. However, to be admitted and to graduate, students must personally adhere to and
support the following doctrinal positions:
 the inspiration, authority, and inerrancy of Scripture,
 the Trinity,
 the full deity and full humanity of Christ,
 the creation of the human race in the image of God,
 the spiritual lostness of the human race,
 the substitutionary atonement and bodily resurrection of Christ,
 salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone,
 the physical and imminent return of Christ, and
 the eternal reward of the righteous and the eternal judgment of the lost.

I wouldn't be keen on going there either. 

(In the above quote the emphasis is mine.)
the substitutionary atonement one is the only one I have a problem with.  And how they define "alone".
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 11:22:58 PM »

the substitutionary atonement one is the only one I have a problem with.

I think it would've been fine if they didn't implicitly mean "penal substitution."
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 11:31:06 PM »

I just read the doctrinal statement here: http://www.moodyministries.net/crp_MainPage.aspx?id=334

Additionally, from their undergraduate catalog:  http://www.moody.edu/uploadedFiles/Education/Library/undergraduate_catalog.pdf

Quote
Doctrinal Qualifications For Students
To maintain continuity and consistency with the heritage entrusted to its care, Moody
Bible Institute requires its faculty and administration to agree with, personally adhere
to, and support all the school’s doctrinal distinctives. These identify what is believed and
taught in our classes. However, the school also recognizes that its specific theological posi-
tions do not define orthodoxy for the whole body of Christ. For this reason, Moody Bible
Institute accepts students from other theological traditions within conservative evangeli-
calism
. However, to be admitted and to graduate, students must personally adhere to and
support the following doctrinal positions:
 the inspiration, authority, and inerrancy of Scripture,
 the Trinity,
 the full deity and full humanity of Christ,
 the creation of the human race in the image of God,
 the spiritual lostness of the human race,
 the substitutionary atonement and bodily resurrection of Christ,
 salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone,
 the physical and imminent return of Christ, and
 the eternal reward of the righteous and the eternal judgment of the lost.

I wouldn't be keen on going there either. 

(In the above quote the emphasis is mine.)
the substitutionary atonement one is the only one I have a problem with.  And how they define "alone".

That first link has this to say on the Trinity:

God is a Person who has revealed Himself as a Trinity in unity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit—three Persons and yet one God.
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2013, 01:55:12 AM »

Just tell her flat out and fast like a band-aid. I once had a teacher when I was a Protestant who went to Moody Bible College. She was crazy. Don't go there.
Unfortunately for you, one teacher who happens to be a product of Moody Bible College does not necessarily represent the entire institution. A bad teacher can come from a good school just as easily as a good teacher can come from a bad school.
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2013, 02:08:00 AM »

I wouldn't get into a deep theology debate with her. What degree do you want, what can you afford for tuition, what carrer plans do you have. That should guide your choice.
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2013, 03:09:09 PM »

Suggest Bob Jones University as an alternative.  laugh
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2013, 03:14:28 PM »

Suggest Bob Jones University as an alternative.  laugh

Or Pensacola Christian College. Wink
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2013, 09:24:29 PM »

Suggest Bob Jones University as an alternative.  laugh

Or Pensacola Christian College. Wink

 Wink indeed.
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 10:17:37 PM »

Wink indeed.

Who wouldn't demerits for touching a member of the opposite sex?
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 10:22:05 PM »

Wink indeed.

Who wouldn't demerits for touching a member of the opposite sex?

I have a friend that went there and I know about it all too well.  He became a baptist pastor and then a couple of years later told his congregation that he was an atheist.  Fun times.
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2013, 10:27:45 PM »

I have a friend that went there and I know about it all too well.  He became a baptist pastor and then a couple of years later told his congregation that he was an atheist.  Fun times.

Wonder if there's any connection...

I went to a "fundamentalist" Evangelical private school for a year, where some of the seniors were considering PCC. Even they, despite coming from pretty overly strict backgrounds, found it too absurd.
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2013, 10:56:10 PM »

I have a friend that went there and I know about it all too well.  He became a baptist pastor and then a couple of years later told his congregation that he was an atheist.  Fun times.

Wonder if there's any connection...

I went to a "fundamentalist" Evangelical private school for a year, where some of the seniors were considering PCC. Even they, despite coming from pretty overly strict backgrounds, found it too absurd.

I remember growing up in Christian schools were the curriculum was Abeka. Naturally, PCC was usually talked very highly of, but I was always turned off by the whole segregation thing.

One guy from PCC, visiting my school in MS, told us he met his wife while they attended PCC and I asked how seeing as you can't even take the same elevator or stairs as the opposite sex. He did not like that question and one of my teachers tried to give me a demerit.

Also, I visited Moody (well, the church part) once or twice and knew a few people who went there. I don't think that would be a good choice for Orthodox, but I don't know how much it has changed since then...

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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2013, 09:04:49 AM »

Growing up as a fundy, I had quite a few friends that went to BJU or PCC.  Several of them are atheists now.  I do think it is quite easy to see the absurdity of it and rather than exploring a deeper understanding of Christianity, just throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I visited BJU, it was just too creepy for me.  I felt as if I was surrounded by robots.  I know many of the students don't agree with the rules, but you sure don't get that impression when visiting...
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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2013, 09:35:23 AM »

Quote
That first link has this to say on the Trinity:

God is a Person who has revealed Himself as a Trinity in unity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit—three Persons and yet one God.

Why is this problematic?
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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2013, 09:56:37 AM »

I have a friend that went there and I know about it all too well.  He became a baptist pastor and then a couple of years later told his congregation that he was an atheist.  Fun times.

Wonder if there's any connection...

I went to a "fundamentalist" Evangelical private school for a year, where some of the seniors were considering PCC. Even they, despite coming from pretty overly strict backgrounds, found it too absurd.

I would venture to guess that he chose extreme fundamentalism as a final effort to preserve his faith, kind of a go-big-or-go-home strategy.  So I wouldn't directly blame the institution's nutty policies.  In fact, I am thankful that he went there.  As an atheist he is now a much kinder, gentler, thoughtful, and loving person.

Anyways, back to the original topic...
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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2013, 03:53:43 PM »

Quote
That first link has this to say on the Trinity:

God is a Person who has revealed Himself as a Trinity in unity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit—three Persons and yet one God.

Why is this problematic?

"God is a person who has revealed Himself as....three persons."

This is modalism.
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2013, 04:30:56 PM »

If it is an issue of her paying for you to attend school and she only wants to put her money into a Christian institution, there are plenty of alternatives that are just as conservative as Moody and offer a similar course of study without the requirement of student assent to a certain set of beliefs. I have a pays-the-bills degree with a minor in religious studies from one such school; the religious studies courses there were intended to serve as the basis for a divinity degree or as ministry preparation for evangelical students, but a number of non-Protestants (including myself and a local Catholic priest who prays the mass in Latin) also found some of the offerings useful.
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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2013, 01:53:20 PM »

why the fuss

plenty of our bishops went to non-orthodox colleges

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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2013, 01:59:41 PM »



"God is a person who has revealed Himself as....three persons."

This is modalism.

Indeed. I noticed that.
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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2013, 03:26:16 PM »

why the fuss

plenty of our bishops went to non-orthodox colleges


If my reading comprehension is up to snuff, the fuss is not that it is a non-Orthodox institution, but that it is an institution that would require him to sign a statement of belief that would require him to outright lie or to personally redefine terms to understand them in a way that the school itself does not.
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