Author Topic: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites  (Read 3365 times)

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Offline genesisone

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2013, 02:18:17 PM »
I think what's most upsetting to me is the Antiochian Archdiocese (N. America) enforcing a 4-part harmony rule for all parishes with a lot of music out of Byzantine tradition and using modern OCA and Carpatho-Russian music tones (ba da da).

I understand the use of the wildly annoying clergy shirt, but the destruction of our sacred Byzantine chant tones is absolutely unacceptable. In fact, hearing it within some of our brothers and sisters in the GOC was upsetting.

Preserve Byzantium!
Not sure what you mean about "enforcing". Some parishes clearly seem to enjoy those 4-part arrangements and they are used in conference settings, but lots of parishes use only Byzantine style. My own priest tries to insert some 4-part hymns, but he gets plenty of resistance. We have two (at best three) male chanters as a choir, so not sure why or how he thinks using 4-part is supposed to work.

There really are mixed messages coming from those with influence. You're right about that. I could go on a rant at this point, but it would detract from this thread.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2013, 01:15:39 AM »
Challenges in Jewish-Christian Relations, edited by James Keltie Aitken, page 51. Therein begins: Nicholas de Lange, The Orthodox Churches in Dialogue with Judaism.

The book is available on Google Books for free. The essay is not long and I think you may find it interesting reading.

it says it costs 10 dollars for me

and the free preview does not show the orthodox section :(
Click here and scroll to page 51 for the Orthodox section:
http://books.google.com/books?id=CoGlFtDhqWgC&pg=PA51&dq=%22the+orthodox+churches+in+dialogue+with+judaism%22+%22the+remarkably%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OytCUu2xPJWr4AOzgoHYBA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20orthodox%20churches%20in%20dialogue%20with%20judaism%22%20%22the%20remarkably%22&f=false

Most of the article is online.
Did anyone get a chance to read it?

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2013, 01:35:31 AM »
It starts getting interesting at the end of page 54 and on 55. Pages 56-57 are not readily available.

Page 56 begins:

Quote
I do not know how this extreme attitude can be overcome, either in Christians or in Jews, but unless it is overcome I do not see how any real dialogue or rapprochement can take place. Indeed one of the most potentially fruitful areas of dialogue is how as Christians and as Jews we can combine our respective religious traditions, which we feel to a large extent serve to define our identities as well as our beliefs, with the demands imposed on us by the modern societies we inhabit...

But unless we can abandon a blind and inflexible attachment to whatever has been expressed in our traditional sources, even if it is blatantly inappropriate to our present real-life situation, then I fear we shall merely isolate ourselves from each other and from the world around us.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 01:44:20 AM by rakovsky »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2013, 11:36:51 PM »
I think what's most upsetting to me is the Antiochian Archdiocese (N. America) enforcing a 4-part harmony rule for all parishes with a lot of music out of Byzantine tradition and using modern OCA and Carpatho-Russian music tones (ba da da).

I understand the use of the wildly annoying clergy shirt, but the destruction of our sacred Byzantine chant tones is absolutely unacceptable. In fact, hearing it within some of our brothers and sisters in the GOC was upsetting.

Preserve Byzantium!
I sympathize. It does not seem necessary to absolutely require all parishes to have OCA chants if they are not from the slavic tradition. I say this as someone who identifies with that tradition. If the Antiochians want to become the OCA, I encourage them to join them, which I hope they will- and in so doing they even then do not need to require OCA music- they can be part of a federation like the Bulgarians.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 11:37:35 PM by rakovsky »

Offline liftsifter

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2013, 09:37:34 AM »
I think what's most upsetting to me is the Antiochian Archdiocese (N. America) enforcing a 4-part harmony rule for all parishes with a lot of music out of Byzantine tradition and using modern OCA and Carpatho-Russian music tones (ba da da).

I understand the use of the wildly annoying clergy shirt, but the destruction of our sacred Byzantine chant tones is absolutely unacceptable. In fact, hearing it within some of our brothers and sisters in the GOC was upsetting.

Preserve Byzantium!
Not sure what you mean about "enforcing". Some parishes clearly seem to enjoy those 4-part arrangements and they are used in conference settings, but lots of parishes use only Byzantine style. My own priest tries to insert some 4-part hymns, but he gets plenty of resistance. We have two (at best three) male chanters as a choir, so not sure why or how he thinks using 4-part is supposed to work.

There really are mixed messages coming from those with influence. You're right about that. I could go on a rant at this point, but it would detract from this thread.

Metropolitan Philip enforces it by making it mandatory for a parish to have a 4-part harmony choir and if they can't have one, they must hire one.
"And the King will say to them, ‘Verily I say to you, inasmuch as you have done it to the least of these my bretheren, you have done it to Me.’" Matthew 25

Offline sheenj

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2013, 09:39:46 AM »
I think what's most upsetting to me is the Antiochian Archdiocese (N. America) enforcing a 4-part harmony rule for all parishes with a lot of music out of Byzantine tradition and using modern OCA and Carpatho-Russian music tones (ba da da).

I understand the use of the wildly annoying clergy shirt, but the destruction of our sacred Byzantine chant tones is absolutely unacceptable. In fact, hearing it within some of our brothers and sisters in the GOC was upsetting.

Preserve Byzantium!
Not sure what you mean about "enforcing". Some parishes clearly seem to enjoy those 4-part arrangements and they are used in conference settings, but lots of parishes use only Byzantine style. My own priest tries to insert some 4-part hymns, but he gets plenty of resistance. We have two (at best three) male chanters as a choir, so not sure why or how he thinks using 4-part is supposed to work.

There really are mixed messages coming from those with influence. You're right about that. I could go on a rant at this point, but it would detract from this thread.

Metropolitan Philip enforces it by making it mandatory for a parish to have a 4-part harmony choir and if they can't have one, they must hire one.

Even for Arabic Liturgies?

Offline genesisone

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2013, 10:00:23 AM »
I think what's most upsetting to me is the Antiochian Archdiocese (N. America) enforcing a 4-part harmony rule for all parishes with a lot of music out of Byzantine tradition and using modern OCA and Carpatho-Russian music tones (ba da da).

I understand the use of the wildly annoying clergy shirt, but the destruction of our sacred Byzantine chant tones is absolutely unacceptable. In fact, hearing it within some of our brothers and sisters in the GOC was upsetting.

Preserve Byzantium!
Not sure what you mean about "enforcing". Some parishes clearly seem to enjoy those 4-part arrangements and they are used in conference settings, but lots of parishes use only Byzantine style. My own priest tries to insert some 4-part hymns, but he gets plenty of resistance. We have two (at best three) male chanters as a choir, so not sure why or how he thinks using 4-part is supposed to work.

There really are mixed messages coming from those with influence. You're right about that. I could go on a rant at this point, but it would detract from this thread.

Metropolitan Philip enforces it by making it mandatory for a parish to have a 4-part harmony choir and if they can't have one, they must hire one.
source?

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2013, 01:49:47 PM »
I was surprised about the proposals on page 55 and after. As professor Benevitch, the Orthodox theologian, wrote, Orthodoxy is at least as loyal to its traditions as Orthodox Judaism.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 01:51:09 PM by rakovsky »

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2013, 04:37:20 PM »
This is stupid! When considering alternatives to the OCA, I thought about joining the Antiochians, because they are non-ethnic, use liturgical English, and follow a consistent Byzantine liturgical paradigm, but I feel that ROCOR is better, because Metropolitan Hilarion is not as arbitrary and overreaching as Metropolitan Phillip seems to be. For instance, the monastery in East Setauket, NY and other parishes use Byzantine chant, entirely, or partially. The cathedral in Mayfield, PA uses a Rusyn liturgical paradigm (Vespers, Matins/Liturgy with a Vigil and Liturgy for feasts) and Metropolitan Hilarion does not complain. In ROCOR, clergy are encouraged to wear proper clerical attire when possible, whereas Metropolitan Phillip discourages it. It is odd why Metropolitan Phillip discourages proper clerical attire, when people are more likely to be attracted to and understand it, and when tradition dictates that clerics who do not wear clerical attire may not serve, because they are felt to have symbolically returned to the world. Of course, there are certain situations when clerical attire can be not worn, but why only wear cassocks in the temple? Wearing cassocks is a silent witness to our faith. 

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2013, 08:21:58 PM »
Let's go back to the book above.

On pages 54-55, it says:
Quote
there are some aspects of Orthodox theology that, while no peculiar to Orthodoxy, pose particular problems, because they stand at the heart of the church's teaching on the Jews... Supersessionism is the name that has come into use for the belief which can be traced back to the early church, that the coming of Christ and the establishment of Christianity render Judaism obsolete and redundant. I have called it a belief, and it is indeed a belief that is expressed with great pwoer and rhetorical skill by the fathers of the church and by later writers. But it is also an attitude of mind, and such it is perhaps just as dangerous and perhaps even harder to dislodge. However venerable its pedigree, supersessionism must be dislodged if there is simply not enough common ground for a dicsussion to take place. This has been widely recognized by Catholics and Protestants involved in dialogue... and it needs to be understood clearly by all Orthodox partiocipants in the encounter with Judaism.
If Supersessionism, is a foundational idea in Orthodoxy that we are now under a New Covenant that is some way higher or greater than what was before, should this be "rooted out?"

Buddhism does not consider Judaism obsolete, since it does not even link itself to Judaism in any way. Should Buddhism be rooted out for that reason? Well, in Orthodoxy, Judaism with its Bible and prophets has been incorporated. Shouldn't Orthodoxy get at least as much slack as Buddhism?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 08:24:29 PM by rakovsky »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2013, 08:28:06 PM »
I think what's most upsetting to me is the Antiochian Archdiocese (N. America) enforcing a 4-part harmony rule for all parishes with a lot of music out of Byzantine tradition and using modern OCA and Carpatho-Russian music tones (ba da da).

I understand the use of the wildly annoying clergy shirt, but the destruction of our sacred Byzantine chant tones is absolutely unacceptable. In fact, hearing it within some of our brothers and sisters in the GOC was upsetting.

Preserve Byzantium!
Not sure what you mean about "enforcing". Some parishes clearly seem to enjoy those 4-part arrangements and they are used in conference settings, but lots of parishes use only Byzantine style. My own priest tries to insert some 4-part hymns, but he gets plenty of resistance. We have two (at best three) male chanters as a choir, so not sure why or how he thinks using 4-part is supposed to work.

There really are mixed messages coming from those with influence. You're right about that. I could go on a rant at this point, but it would detract from this thread.

Metropolitan Philip enforces it by making it mandatory for a parish to have a 4-part harmony choir and if they can't have one, they must hire one.

Not in my experience.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2013, 08:32:11 PM »
Metropolitan Philip enforces it by making it mandatory for a parish to have a 4-part harmony choir and if they can't have one, they must hire one.

Not in my experience.

Neither in mine.  I've always heard a very...enthusiastic...rendition of Byzantine chant in Arabic, Greek, and English, but the only Antiochian four-part music I've heard has been on CD's. 
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2013, 09:12:48 PM »
I think what's most upsetting to me is the Antiochian Archdiocese (N. America) enforcing a 4-part harmony rule for all parishes with a lot of music out of Byzantine tradition and using modern OCA and Carpatho-Russian music tones (ba da da).

I understand the use of the wildly annoying clergy shirt, but the destruction of our sacred Byzantine chant tones is absolutely unacceptable. In fact, hearing it within some of our brothers and sisters in the GOC was upsetting.

Preserve Byzantium!
Not sure what you mean about "enforcing". Some parishes clearly seem to enjoy those 4-part arrangements and they are used in conference settings, but lots of parishes use only Byzantine style. My own priest tries to insert some 4-part hymns, but he gets plenty of resistance. We have two (at best three) male chanters as a choir, so not sure why or how he thinks using 4-part is supposed to work.

There really are mixed messages coming from those with influence. You're right about that. I could go on a rant at this point, but it would detract from this thread.

Metropolitan Philip enforces it by making it mandatory for a parish to have a 4-part harmony choir and if they can't have one, they must hire one.

Not in my experience.

Nor in mine.

Offline arimethea

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2013, 10:19:43 PM »
Metropolitan Philip enforces it by making it mandatory for a parish to have a 4-part harmony choir and if they can't have one, they must hire one.

Of all the accusation I have ever seen against Met. Philip on this board this might be the farthest one from the truth.

The only thing he requires is that parishes have good music programs. To say he requires 4-part harmony is a complete falsehood. He would have never encouraged and authorized the Congregational Liturgy Book which is 100% single line music in the Byzantine tradition.
Joseph

Offline genesisone

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Re: Suppression and Change of Traditional Rites
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2013, 12:27:34 PM »
I think what's most upsetting to me is the Antiochian Archdiocese (N. America) enforcing a 4-part harmony rule for all parishes with a lot of music out of Byzantine tradition and using modern OCA and Carpatho-Russian music tones (ba da da).

I understand the use of the wildly annoying clergy shirt, but the destruction of our sacred Byzantine chant tones is absolutely unacceptable. In fact, hearing it within some of our brothers and sisters in the GOC was upsetting.

Preserve Byzantium!
Not sure what you mean about "enforcing". Some parishes clearly seem to enjoy those 4-part arrangements and they are used in conference settings, but lots of parishes use only Byzantine style. My own priest tries to insert some 4-part hymns, but he gets plenty of resistance. We have two (at best three) male chanters as a choir, so not sure why or how he thinks using 4-part is supposed to work.

There really are mixed messages coming from those with influence. You're right about that. I could go on a rant at this point, but it would detract from this thread.

Metropolitan Philip enforces it by making it mandatory for a parish to have a 4-part harmony choir and if they can't have one, they must hire one.
source?
Let me cut you some slack since you are only 17 years old and help you with a bit of research. Look here where you will find that Metropolitan Philip encourages the use of Byzantine style music while still recognizing that other styles have their place too.

I'm going to file your assertion under "Urban legends/Internet rumours".