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Anastasia1
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« on: March 02, 2013, 06:33:06 AM »

I've been told by my parents that I should marry someone who is a citizen so that if something ever happens, he doesn't take my kids to his home country where he could have more legal rights than I. I've also been told by an Orthodox friend who is getting engaged that you should not approach marriage with that kind of expectation that it might not work. This issue has come up before. What's your take on this?  What advice is best to follow?
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2013, 06:44:51 AM »

Both are excellent.
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2013, 06:46:44 AM »

I have to wonder what is that 'something' that your parents think might just 'happen' that would justify child abduction. Huh
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2013, 06:57:40 AM »

I have to wonder what is that 'something' that your parents think might just 'happen' that would justify child abduction. Huh

Here in the Netherlands Moroccan men often do just that when a divorce happens.
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2013, 07:08:38 AM »

I have to wonder what is that 'something' that your parents think might just 'happen' that would justify child abduction. Huh

Here in the Netherlands Moroccan men often do just that when a divorce happens.

Yes, but 1) divorces don't just 'happen' with a finger snap, and 2) I don't think Anastasia would marry a (presumably Muslim) Moroccan to begin with.
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2013, 07:10:00 AM »

I think this falls under the "too rare to worry about" category, at least where I live it would be. You could come up with all sorts of strange what-ifs, after all. What if someone marries you, gets you to save money "for a house" for 3 years, then steals the money from your bank account? What if you marry someone that is secretly married to someone else? And so forth.  What are the chances of these scenarios actually happening to you? They may have happened to someone, somewhere, some time, but why run your life trying to dodge 1001 such rare circumstances--or as is more likely, trying to dodge the 2 or 3 that catch your fancy? My wife decided that she wasn't heterosexual after all, that she would throw away 7 years of marriage and two children, all for an infatuation. If it was in a book people would complain that such things would never happen in real life. But [Stuff] happens. There are a thousand scenarios that could happen that would hurt you. Just live your life and take sensible precautions. If there are a rash of non-American men stealing their children off to Sudan in the middle of the night, then take that into consideration. If not, don't worry about it.
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2013, 03:57:16 PM »

If you are an American citizen, then it won't matter, because the moment he marries you, he will become an American citizen, and will have to give up the citizenship to his prior country, since I don't think America allows dual citizenship in most cases.
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2013, 04:03:46 PM »

If you are an American citizen, then it won't matter, because the moment he marries you, he will become an American citizen, and will have to give up the citizenship to his prior country, since I don't think America allows dual citizenship in most cases.

So much wrong...
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2013, 05:07:15 PM »

If you are an American citizen, then it won't matter, because the moment he marries you, he will become an American citizen, and will have to give up the citizenship to his prior country, since I don't think America allows dual citizenship in most cases.

Even Hollywood disagrees with you, let alone La Migra. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2013, 05:15:16 PM »

If you are an American citizen, then it won't matter, because the moment he marries you, he will become an American citizen, and will have to give up the citizenship to his prior country, since I don't think America allows dual citizenship in most cases.

Enormous FAIL.  My mother married my US Citizen father in 1960.  She did not become an American citizen until 1984.
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2013, 05:32:24 PM »

Enormous FAIL.  My mother married my US Citizen father in 1960.  She did not become an American citizen until 1984.

I have several American friends with spouses who, years after, are still (green) card-carrying Canadians. I also know a couple of dual citizens as well, apart from Denis Leary. Wink
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2013, 05:54:29 PM »

asteriktos,
i am so sorry that happened to you. may God give u strength.
your advice to anastasia1 is good.
i married a non citizen of my country and a few people suggested it would turn out not to be a genuine marriage.
they were wrong.
this isn't to say that cross cultural marriage is easy.

in fact, if u are considering that (well, any marriage, really is about the different 'culture' of 2 different families and different ways of seeing the world), then share a house with several diverse house mates, and put up with all their cleanliness habits (or lack of...) and their way of doing the shopping, forgetting to do chores etc. for several years.

this should show up some of the character traits u need to sort out before marriage!
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2013, 07:05:01 PM »

Okay then, since my last idea failed, is it possible to formulate a prenup where he cannot take your children to another country if he decides to leave you or something?
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2013, 07:39:00 PM »

Asteriktos excellent points.

Anastasia, what would you say to me, deciding to marry a man who I anticipate has a probable potential to not only want to divorce me but also to take my children away from me. also if I tell you that in anticipation of such a move by him I have decided the way to avoid it is by making sure he becomes a citizen. while we are at it , what would you say if I tell you that I plan to have a pre nup signed to protect my money from this man I am marrying.but at the end of all this talk I tell you that I totally love this man, and I can not imagine life without him. what would you say to me, I hope it will be ' for heaven's sake ,wake the heck up!' or something to that effect..self deception is a dangerous dangerous game. there is a saying i know, roughly it translates as ' when someone wants to eat the crow he calls it chicken' its quite easy to see only what we want to see and ignore what we do not. there is a difference between knowing that what one has is not a real thing therefore legal protection is important vs saying what one has is a real thing and still insisting that such type of anticipated eventualities are probable. I am sorry  personally this is one of those things I think of only as in either-or about and because of that I can be very wrong. good luck Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2013, 07:40:36 PM »

hehehe James pre nup.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 07:41:27 PM by Hiwot » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2013, 11:08:22 PM »

Asteriktos excellent points.

Anastasia, what would you say to me, deciding to marry a man who I anticipate has a probable potential to not only want to divorce me but also to take my children away from me. also if I tell you that in anticipation of such a move by him I have decided the way to avoid it is by making sure he becomes a citizen. while we are at it , what would you say if I tell you that I plan to have a pre nup signed to protect my money from this man I am marrying.but at the end of all this talk I tell you that I totally love this man, and I can not imagine life without him. what would you say to me, I hope it will be ' for heaven's sake ,wake the heck up!' or something to that effect..self deception is a dangerous dangerous game. there is a saying i know, roughly it translates as ' when someone wants to eat the crow he calls it chicken' its quite easy to see only what we want to see and ignore what we do not. there is a difference between knowing that what one has is not a real thing therefore legal protection is important vs saying what one has is a real thing and still insisting that such type of anticipated eventualities are probable. I am sorry  personally this is one of those things I think of only as in either-or about and because of that I can be very wrong. good luck Smiley

I don't even know how to make sense of that. If you think a guy is going to leave or take your kids, you should not marry him. If the family/your close friends see a bunch of things you don't, it is probably good to listen.

I feel like this example is a little bit of a stretch to apply yet. I have had only a couple of dates with someone who is not a citizen because I listen to my family and am trying to decide for myself if this advice to marry a citizen is worth necessarily listening to and passing guys up on that basis if I do not plan on moving long-term. I feel like you said a lot here and it is hard for me to break down. We both agree that self-deception is dangerous. It sounds like when you said, " there is a difference between knowing that what one has is not a real thing therefore legal protection is important vs saying what one has is a real thing and still insisting that such type of anticipated eventualities are probable" this is comparing walking into a known failure and being deceived.
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2013, 12:24:08 PM »

i think she was being ironic and she meant that it can't be right to go into a marriage planning what to do when it fails.
as for your friend, i suggest you become good friends, be friends with his friends, introduce him to your friends, visit his family if possible, and then if there is not the romance you expected, at least you have gained a friend.
after i met the man i later married, we became pen friends (friends by correspondence) and the romance came later. it was no surprise to him (he was very wise to get to know me as friend first, rather than talk of romance early on) but it was to me.
'be friends first' is the best tip.
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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2013, 02:51:52 PM »

Okay then, since my last idea failed, is it possible to formulate a prenup where he cannot take your children to another country if he decides to leave you or something?

While your intentions are good, I think this would be a poor plan.  If the man in question has no qualms about kidnapping his own children, so that they never see their mother again, how will a piece of paper keep them from doing so? 
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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2013, 05:48:07 PM »

Asteriktos excellent points.

Anastasia, what would you say to me, deciding to marry a man who I anticipate has a probable potential to not only want to divorce me but also to take my children away from me. also if I tell you that in anticipation of such a move by him I have decided the way to avoid it is by making sure he becomes a citizen. while we are at it , what would you say if I tell you that I plan to have a pre nup signed to protect my money from this man I am marrying.but at the end of all this talk I tell you that I totally love this man, and I can not imagine life without him. what would you say to me, I hope it will be ' for heaven's sake ,wake the heck up!' or something to that effect..self deception is a dangerous dangerous game. there is a saying i know, roughly it translates as ' when someone wants to eat the crow he calls it chicken' its quite easy to see only what we want to see and ignore what we do not. there is a difference between knowing that what one has is not a real thing therefore legal protection is important vs saying what one has is a real thing and still insisting that such type of anticipated eventualities are probable. I am sorry  personally this is one of those things I think of only as in either-or about and because of that I can be very wrong. good luck Smiley

I don't even know how to make sense of that. If you think a guy is going to leave or take your kids, you should not marry him. If the family/your close friends see a bunch of things you don't, it is probably good to listen.

I feel like this example is a little bit of a stretch to apply yet. I have had only a couple of dates with someone who is not a citizen because I listen to my family and am trying to decide for myself if this advice to marry a citizen is worth necessarily listening to and passing guys up on that basis if I do not plan on moving long-term. I feel like you said a lot here and it is hard for me to break down. We both agree that self-deception is dangerous. It sounds like when you said, " there is a difference between knowing that what one has is not a real thing therefore legal protection is important vs saying what one has is a real thing and still insisting that such type of anticipated eventualities are probable" this is comparing walking into a known failure and being deceived.


Thanks Mabsoota Smiley



Anastasia, I think you got it, Smiley although I will explain further. You have to keep in mind that on issues such as this my views are quite archaic and may be even naïve by most people’s standards; I offer them only as existing perspectives available on the issue. So here it goes..


Relationships have stages of development not always cast in stone but somewhat of an evolving dynamic pattern. When we are talking about a married man with children deciding to take his children away from their mother, we have jumped all the events involved in the formation of the relationship they have and all issues that have led to the present situation.

I think in this particular case, what one must ask is: what is citizenship’s role in the personality of the person one is dating. Include in that what economic social and cultural conflict of interest exists in dating some one of a different origin. We are now speaking in broad general terms without taking individual person’s psychological makeup. So ignoring the positive aspects for now, let us focus on the probable negatives.

-If you are an American citizen, and that person sees it as a way of gaining economic and political advantage then there is the chance of being used to get that coveted advantage. Just like if you are rich and someone who sees that forming a relationship with you as a way to get to your money might try to use you.

-If you are an American citizen, and that person has decided to end his relationship with you ( here we got to consider what the possible reasons may be) and to cut you out of their life in a way that includes separating you from your children, one of the drastic methods being  snatching them to his country of citizenship where you potentially have no right.

The above scenarios are potential risks one has to think about I believe in the very early stages of the relationship. Without necessarily jumping into the relationship with blind eyes or avoiding persons of such social status out right based on perceived risks alone, if all other important aspects of compatibility are present then it is in my opinion worth it to get to know the person better. You might have something so genuine and extraordinary that it becomes capable of crossing human boundaries. In this life there is very little that is beautiful and lasts.


Because you are orthodox it gives me a certain leverage to say, there are ways that the spiritual person if humble enough, can sift through the public masquerade and see the naked person not just the image and find out if one can live with all the flaws of the person one sees and even love them for it. Find the person’s flaws, find and face yours honestly as well, and add them all to the good you both have and decide what you think about the mix whether it will hold or disintegrate when tested by life.  After the initial screenings you do to find out whether or not you can genuinely trust this person in all matters of life known or unknown to you. You will have someone you can trust even if they were the citizen of mars, and any other issues people get suspicious about. Or someone you will avoid voluntarily and with ease. Now we move forward and think about marriage, you see now that given all that you have done to decide whether or not you two can mesh together, if you still have those kinds of serious doubts, then it is time to turn back before going to the altar. Because no amount of legal protection can save you from the real disaster that awaits. The man you decide to trust, love and honor enough to marry Anastasia, it is my expectation (because of how smart and grounded you are) that he would be noble and trust worthy, worthy of your love and honor. Not some lunatic citizen or none-citizen, who at a drop of a dime or when the going gets tough, victimizes his children’s wellbeing for his personal vendetta against you, by separating them from the mother they love and who loves them.


Now concerning your parents’ advice, I think it is every parent’s job to look for and do a preemptive damage control to all possible negative outcomes given all the elements involved for the sake of their children’s welfare and happiness. They also know you well enough to make a fair assessment of how you would relate to the situation you are facing. Friends also are in that position to pitch in because of their intimate knowledge of your character both in your guarded and unguarded moments so they are in a good place to point out certain facts you might be prone to gloss over or be blind to. Therefore like you said, with that in mind it is good to listen to them; initially and even then up to a point. Because in the end it is you who must live your life, we are not static personalities frozen in time never to adopt and evolve; we have a capacity to rise up to challenges and grow by meeting them head on and be better for it. Just like men of questionable character are out there having all sorts of citizenship, men of noble character are available in all manners of social and political status also. For the right reasons we must take a calculated risk otherwise we will never live. What Christianity teaches us most is that we have a potential to rise above what we know to be our self, and genuine love has the infinite potential to energies us in that assent towards heights we did not know exist, lending us the strength, making us capable of loving in the fullest sense of the term. So even if your parents may say this guy is not the kind of guy we wanted for you, but you have gone through all the stages of knowing him and now you do love him for all the right reasons, I say stand by your love. Choose him. Because such choice will be presented to you in some form or another by life, every single day of your life and you must make that same choice over and over again for the rest of your life, above yourself and against all odds. Even scriptures say man will leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. In the practice of your faith you will have the grace you need to live a joyful committed life. I am not saying you will be happy all the time.

I realize you just had few dates with this person, and your parents are trying to eliminate all the potential risk factors, but you are an adult so get to know the person a bit if citizenship is the only factor that is a potential problem.

Like I said before I could be very wrong.

Sorry for the length.


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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 03:27:43 PM »

i agree, hiwot.
i basically did all those things, weighed up the advice given, and knew who knew me well enough to give advice and who didn't (in a few cases, this may include family!), fasted and prayed, got through all the differences and i am still married >15 years later.
 Smiley

this doesn't mean no good Christian who does this will ever get divorced, but it does help to remove a lot of the reasons some people get divorced for ('incompatibility', poor progression up the social scale, money etc.)
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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2013, 03:49:55 PM »

i agree, hiwot.
i basically did all those things, weighed up the advice given, and knew who knew me well enough to give advice and who didn't (in a few cases, this may include family!), fasted and prayed, got through all the differences and i am still married >15 years later.
 Smiley

this doesn't mean no good Christian who does this will ever get divorced, but it does help to remove a lot of the reasons some people get divorced for ('incompatibility', poor progression up the social scale, money etc.)

Glory be to God! it really is wonderful to hear such things my dear, may the Lord continue to bless your marriage and grant you many joyful years together!
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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