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Author Topic: Illegal vs. Immoral  (Read 947 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 28, 2013, 05:45:51 AM »

Why in the debates about whether something is moral (aka not sinful) many people here say it's illegal and think it solves something? There are many things that are legal and immoral, illegal and moral, or illegal and not immoral. Why is legality important at all?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 05:46:17 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2013, 06:39:25 AM »

Rabbi Chanina said: "Pray for the welfare of the government, since but for fear of it men would swallow each other alive."
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2013, 08:51:17 AM »

Christianity stresses obedience to the civil authorities, so illegality itself becomes a moral issue.
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 09:08:28 AM »

Christianity stresses obedience to the civil authorities, so illegality itself becomes a moral issue.

Even when it contradicts morality directly?
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 09:11:30 AM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 09:33:13 AM »

Christianity stresses obedience to the civil authorities, so illegality itself becomes a moral issue.

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

Well, your question was on legality in general, and in that regard, we are to obey the laws of the land.  However, if the law contradicts morality, then I believe that there is no obligation to obey.  In fact, it may be our duty to actively resist.
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2013, 10:28:04 AM »

Christianity stresses obedience to the civil authorities, so illegality itself becomes a moral issue.

Where exactly do you find this?
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2013, 11:05:43 AM »

Why in the debates about whether something is moral (aka not sinful) many people here say it's illegal and think it solves something? There are many things that are legal and immoral, illegal and moral, or illegal and not immoral. Why is legality important at all?

Can you provide some examples (non-hypothetical) of laws that require people to do something which goes contrary to the Faith, or laws against fulfilling what our Faith requires?  What virtues are forbidden by law, and what sins are we required to commit by law? 

Christianity stresses obedience to the civil authorities, so illegality itself becomes a moral issue.

Where exactly do you find this?

Perhaps Orthodox11 is referring to:

Quote
Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 11:06:14 AM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2013, 11:09:43 AM »

Perhaps Orthodox11 is referring to:

Romans 13

Thanks, yes, that was the passage I had in mind.
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2013, 11:13:31 AM »

Can you provide some examples (non-hypothetical) of laws that require people to do something which goes contrary to the Faith, or laws against fulfilling what our Faith requires?  What virtues are forbidden by law, and what sins are we required to commit by law? 

The Nuremberg Laws of the 1930s.  There are groups of people that I do not particularly care for, but if it became against the law to help them, or if it was a requirement of the law to turn them in, I guess that I would be a criminal.  The same could be said for laws that would make worshiping God in the Orthodox manner illegal.  A lot of people went to Gulags for doing so.

I can't believe that you needed to ask the question.

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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2013, 11:19:13 AM »

Can you provide some examples (non-hypothetical) of laws that require people to do something which goes contrary to the Faith, or laws against fulfilling what our Faith requires?  What virtues are forbidden by law, and what sins are we required to commit by law?

- Orthodox Church was delegalised here from 1596 to 1633
- in 1938 the state demolished about 130 churches
- in 1942 Orthodox Church became illegal in the Czech lands...
- abolishing the Moscow Patriarchate by tzars...


I can't believe that you needed to ask the question.

Indeed.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 11:19:26 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2013, 11:48:17 AM »

Perhaps Orthodox11 is referring to:

Romans 13

Thanks, yes, that was the passage I had in mind.

I figured this as well but an not so certain of the interpretations assumed.
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« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2013, 12:01:39 PM »

Why in the debates about whether something is moral (aka not sinful) many people here say it's illegal and think it solves something? There are many things that are legal and immoral, illegal and moral, or illegal and not immoral. Why is legality important at all?
Because people cannot differentiate between "can" and "should".
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« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2013, 12:05:32 PM »

Can you provide some examples (non-hypothetical) of laws that require people to do something which goes contrary to the Faith, or laws against fulfilling what our Faith requires?  What virtues are forbidden by law, and what sins are we required to commit by law?

- Orthodox Church was delegalised here from 1596 to 1633
- in 1938 the state demolished about 130 churches
- in 1942 Orthodox Church became illegal in the Czech lands...
- abolishing the Moscow Patriarchate by tzars...


I can't believe that you needed to ask the question.

Indeed.

I asked for examples of laws that "require" in the present tense, not in the past, as I am not familiar with the laws where Michal Kalina resides and I thought he may have some specific contemporary laws in mind.  It should go without saying that our primary obedience is to God and we could not obey a law which would mandate sin or forbid us to worship and obey God.  I am curious as to whether there are contemporary laws in the US or in Poland that forbid what God commands or command what God forbids.

That being said, I think "morality" is a bit of a vague, and not very useful, term.  However, I understand the point that legality and morality are not equivalent terms.  Just because the law allows something does not mean that it is not sinful, and just because the law forbids something does not mean it is necessarily sinful, etc.  If a certain act that is not inherently sinful is forbidden by law, I suspect that committing the act in disobedience to the law renders the act sinful unless the committing of the act was necessary in order to obey the commands of Christ.

Perhaps the basic rule to follow is that if something is forbidden by law we must obey the law unless obeying the law means disobeying God.  If something is required by law, we should also obey the law as long as obeying the law does not equate to disobeying God.  This is easier stated than followed, however, and I'm sure we could come up with a lot of scenarios where the decision would be difficult.      
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2013, 05:07:18 PM »

Because as Christians we are ordered to obey the civil authorities, therefore, if they make something illegal (even if it is silly), it becomes immoral for us to do it--not because it may be bad, but because through doing so, we are disobeying the civil authorities. This is one of those sections in the Bible that most people want to overlook.
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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2013, 05:11:04 PM »

Can you provide some examples (non-hypothetical) of laws that require people to do something which goes contrary to the Faith, or laws against fulfilling what our Faith requires?

Mandatory prayer in public-schools with the heterodox, even though we aren't allowed to pray with heretics. However, this law was pretty much overturned in most civilized states.
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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2013, 05:22:50 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

I wish every Christian would offer a thought rather than quoting their misunderstanding of this passage.

Everything is God's. What is of God's that is to be rendered unto Caesar is what is appropriate to do so in light of communion with God and one's neighbor.
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2013, 05:30:54 PM »

Because as Christians we are ordered to obey the civil authorities, therefore, if they make something illegal (even if it is silly), it becomes immoral for us to do it--not because it may be bad, but because through doing so, we are disobeying the civil authorities. This is one of those sections in the Bible that most people want to overlook.

God save me.

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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2013, 05:31:33 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.

EDIT: Dang it, Orthonorm beat me to this.
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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2013, 05:34:46 PM »

All things belong to God.

EDIT: Dang it, Orthonorm beat me to this.

Poorly phrased, I grant you, but I'm sure even Orthonorm deep down knows what I was trying to say.
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« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2013, 05:36:21 PM »

All things belong to God.

EDIT: Dang it, Orthonorm beat me to this.

Poorly phrased, I grant you, but I'm sure even Orthonorm deep down knows what I was trying to say.

Actually I am pretty sure I do and I am pretty sure you are wrong, along with nearly every other human I've ever heard offer this verse as a self-evident apology for obedience to civil authority; it has almost nothing to do with such a notion.
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« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2013, 05:37:17 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2013, 05:40:54 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.
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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2013, 05:41:42 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

^This.
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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2013, 05:45:38 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

I didn't say what He was meaning by what He said.  Just that He knew what He was saying.  Perhaps you could tell us what you think He is meaning by His words.
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« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2013, 05:50:46 PM »

Actually I am pretty sure I do and I am pretty sure you are wrong, along with nearly every other human I've ever heard offer this verse as a self-evident apology for obedience to civil authority; it has almost nothing to do with such a notion.

The primary point of the saying is of course the image on the coin vs. the image in which we're created, and to Whom we therefore belong and should give ourselves. So yes, although Christ showed the paying of tribute to Caesar was acceptable, it's not central. So I get your questioning the propriety of my appeal to it in the context of this thread. However, I still think the point I was making was fairly straight forward, albeit poorly worded.
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« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2013, 05:56:34 PM »

All things belong to God.

EDIT: Dang it, Orthonorm beat me to this.

Poorly phrased, I grant you, but I'm sure even Orthonorm deep down knows what I was trying to say.

Actually I am pretty sure I do and I am pretty sure you are wrong, along with nearly every other human I've ever heard offer this verse as a self-evident apology for obedience to civil authority; it has almost nothing to do with such a notion.

Especially considering the context of the Lord's saying. But today, we overlook context for a pretext. And no wonder why people can't stop texting.
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« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2013, 05:58:55 PM »

Actually I am pretty sure I do and I am pretty sure you are wrong, along with nearly every other human I've ever heard offer this verse as a self-evident apology for obedience to civil authority; it has almost nothing to do with such a notion.

The primary point of the saying is of course the image on the coin vs. the image in which we're created, and to Whom we therefore belong and should give ourselves. So yes, although Christ showed the paying of tribute to Caesar was acceptable, it's not central. So I get your questioning the propriety of my appeal to it in the context of this thread. However, I still think the point I was making was fairly straight forward, albeit poorly worded.

Nope.

That is a nice allegorical exegesis I guess, but again I would suggest a structural approach to the interchange. Look at the other interchanges which precede it.

One thing I've found that goes missing in a huge way in American education, notably reading, is the lack of respect for structure.

The fact, that some people don't even read "the table of contents" of a text amuses me.
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« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2013, 06:01:47 PM »

Allegory is totally foreign to the American mind--that's why we have so many people who take the literalist approach to everything in the Bible, and to a great extent, even in literature. Take The Masque of Red Death by Edgar Allen Poe for an example; it is something that is assigned to us high-school students to read quite often to learn about allegory, and while most students don't bother reading it, the very few that do end up saying that it was boring or that it didn't make any sense, because they didn't really dissect the text.
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« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2013, 10:30:05 PM »

Because as Christians we are ordered to obey the civil authorities, therefore, if they make something illegal (even if it is silly), it becomes immoral for us to do it--not because it may be bad, but because through doing so, we are disobeying the civil authorities. This is one of those sections in the Bible that most people want to overlook.

Really screwy interpretation as I suspected from the "supporting" scripture cited earlier in Romans 13.
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« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2013, 10:46:38 PM »

Because all laws stem from morality. Murder and theft are illegal because they are immoral. The problem is that what is considered moral and immoral varies from person to person and culture to culture. And Democracy compounds the problem because laws are essentially detemined by the unrestrained will of individuals that all have a different view of what should or shouldn't be legal.

I think Dr. King summed it up well when he said: "You cannot legislate morality, but you can regulate behavior to a degree. The law cannot change the heart, but it can restrain the heartless."


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« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2013, 10:54:54 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.

EDIT: Dang it, Orthonorm beat me to this.

Okay good. So next year, we're all going to not pay our taxes and jaywalk whenever we want?
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« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2013, 11:02:57 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.

EDIT: Dang it, Orthonorm beat me to this.

Okay good. So next year, we're all going to not pay our taxes and jaywalk whenever we want?

One could try.  Cheesy


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« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2013, 11:18:54 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

I didn't say what He was meaning by what He said.  Just that He knew what He was saying.  Perhaps you could tell us what you think He is meaning by His words.
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« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2013, 10:34:46 AM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

I didn't say what He was meaning by what He said.  Just that He knew what He was saying.  Perhaps you could tell us what you think He is meaning by His words.
A little bit of advice: your church doesn't need a conclave to elect new pope. Just take Orthonorm. He clearly knows all. Bam. Problem solved.

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LOL!!
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« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2013, 12:01:52 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

I didn't say what He was meaning by what He said.  Just that He knew what He was saying.  Perhaps you could tell us what you think He is meaning by His words.
A little bit of advice: your church doesn't need a conclave to elect new pope. Just take Orthonorm. He clearly knows all. Bam. Problem solved.

In Christ,
Andrew

LOL!!

I would certainly know how not to cover up sex abuse against children.

Sometimes ignorance is a virtue.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 12:02:10 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2013, 12:06:42 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

I didn't say what He was meaning by what He said.  Just that He knew what He was saying.  Perhaps you could tell us what you think He is meaning by His words.
A little bit of advice: your church doesn't need a conclave to elect new pope. Just take Orthonorm. He clearly knows all. Bam. Problem solved.

In Christ,
Andrew

LOL!!

I would certainly know how not to cover up sex abuse against children.

Sometimes ignorance is a virtue.

It's really easy.  Pretty much just like covering up any other indiscretion.
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« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2013, 12:34:45 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

I didn't say what He was meaning by what He said.  Just that He knew what He was saying.  Perhaps you could tell us what you think He is meaning by His words.
A little bit of advice: your church doesn't need a conclave to elect new pope. Just take Orthonorm. He clearly knows all. Bam. Problem solved.

In Christ,
Andrew

LOL!!

I would certainly know how not to cover up sex abuse against children.

Sometimes ignorance is a virtue.

That settles it then.  ORTHONORM FOR POPE!  
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 12:47:28 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2013, 12:48:39 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

I didn't say what He was meaning by what He said.  Just that He knew what He was saying.  Perhaps you could tell us what you think He is meaning by His words.
A little bit of advice: your church doesn't need a conclave to elect new pope. Just take Orthonorm. He clearly knows all. Bam. Problem solved.

In Christ,
Andrew

LOL!!

I would certainly know how not to cover up sex abuse against children.

Sometimes ignorance is a virtue.

That settles it then.  ORTHONORM FOR POPE! 

If you guys really want him...who am I to complain?  Grin
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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
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Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2013, 12:52:46 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

I didn't say what He was meaning by what He said.  Just that He knew what He was saying.  Perhaps you could tell us what you think He is meaning by His words.
A little bit of advice: your church doesn't need a conclave to elect new pope. Just take Orthonorm. He clearly knows all. Bam. Problem solved.

In Christ,
Andrew

LOL!!

I would certainly know how not to cover up sex abuse against children.

Sometimes ignorance is a virtue.

That settles it then.  ORTHONORM FOR POPE! 

If you guys really want him...who am I to complain?  Grin

There's at least one slight problem, however.  I *think* he's Orthodox, not Catholic.  I'm pretty sure that'd work against him, even IF we (using the term loosely, you know) did want him.  Now, if he wanted to convert....well....Let's take it one baby step at a time, eh  Wink?
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2013, 12:59:38 PM »

Sometimes ignorance is a virtue.

I've heard one (Catholic) priest refer to it as "the eighth sacrament, which alone saved more people than all the other seven". 
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« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2013, 02:24:06 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

I didn't say what He was meaning by what He said.  Just that He knew what He was saying.  Perhaps you could tell us what you think He is meaning by His words.
A little bit of advice: your church doesn't need a conclave to elect new pope. Just take Orthonorm. He clearly knows all. Bam. Problem solved.

In Christ,
Andrew

LOL!!

I would certainly know how not to cover up sex abuse against children.

Sometimes ignorance is a virtue.

That settles it then.  ORTHONORM FOR POPE! 

If you guys really want him...who am I to complain?  Grin

There's at least one slight problem, however.  I *think* he's Orthodox, not Catholic.  I'm pretty sure that'd work against him, even IF we (using the term loosely, you know) did want him.  Now, if he wanted to convert....well....Let's take it one baby step at a time, eh  Wink?

Becoming RC would involve pretty much talking to a Priest for a few hours.

I don't think you would have much input. Just letting you know the bar for entry into your Church ain't that high.

Heck, when I was living with Jesuits, I was asked why I didn't want to become a Priest. I said I didn't believe God. The response was: Ok . . . and what's the problem?
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
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Posts: 10,172


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2013, 02:52:57 PM »

Even when it contradicts morality directly?

No. We render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not what belongs to God.

All things belong to God.


I'm guessing Jesus knew that when He said it as quoted in Mark 12:17 and Matt. 22:21.  So....He must have been referring to *something*, eh?  Wink

Again, I would challenge you to read this exchange in light with every other one which precedes in similar structure.

He ain't saying what I nearly hear everyone say He is.

I didn't say what He was meaning by what He said.  Just that He knew what He was saying.  Perhaps you could tell us what you think He is meaning by His words.
A little bit of advice: your church doesn't need a conclave to elect new pope. Just take Orthonorm. He clearly knows all. Bam. Problem solved.

In Christ,
Andrew

LOL!!

I would certainly know how not to cover up sex abuse against children.

Sometimes ignorance is a virtue.

That settles it then.  ORTHONORM FOR POPE! 

If you guys really want him...who am I to complain?  Grin

There's at least one slight problem, however.  I *think* he's Orthodox, not Catholic.  I'm pretty sure that'd work against him, even IF we (using the term loosely, you know) did want him.  Now, if he wanted to convert....well....Let's take it one baby step at a time, eh  Wink?

Becoming RC would involve pretty much talking to a Priest for a few hours.

I don't think you would have much input. Just letting you know the bar for entry into your Church ain't that high.

Heck, when I was living with Jesuits, I was asked why I didn't want to become a Priest. I said I didn't believe God. The response was: Ok . . . and what's the problem?

Say no more.
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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