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« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2013, 01:26:14 AM »

δι' Ἀγάθωνος ὁ Πέτρος etc.

The Romans would (ab)use this quote just like they do with the Peter spoke through Leo quote.
I thought so, but wanted to check.

The problem is that although Pope Agatho contributed much to calling the Council, he reposed shortly after it opened. Alas! for the supporters of Pastor Aeternus, not only did the Council not suspend its sessions, but continued on and concluded while the see of Old Rome remained vacant.  The new Pope, Leo II, was not consecrated until almost a year after the Council had closed and issued its Definition of Faith.

exactly
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« Reply #91 on: March 09, 2013, 01:28:17 AM »

Also, why is leavened bread used when unleavened bread was for Passover. Thanks.

This doesn't really answer your question, but I'd like to mention that in the Roman Communion we use either leavened or unleavened bread, depending on which church it is. (For example, yesterday I received communion with leavened bread, because it was in a parish of the Melkite Catholic Church.)

It doesn't answer his question at all
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« Reply #92 on: March 09, 2013, 01:31:54 AM »

Quote
  They say that Mary was conceived Immaculately and that the Pope is infallible.

The pope is only infallible concerning issues on faith and morals.

I have to accept the Immaculate Conception of the BVM, otherwise how could the body of our Lord be in contact of the sinful body of his mother while he was in her womb? It's not so hard to believe that the mother of God on earth was given a special grace for this reason.

"I have to...otherwise how could..." 
Why, did she give birth in the womb of St. Anna? 
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« Reply #93 on: March 09, 2013, 01:34:51 AM »

Quote
 They say that Mary was conceived Immaculately and that the Pope is infallible.

The pope is only infallible concerning issues on faith and morals.

I have to accept the Immaculate Conception of the BVM, otherwise how could the body of our Lord be in contact of the sinful body of his mother while he was in her womb? It's not so hard to believe that the mother of God on earth was given a special grace for this reason.
"He made Him Who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" II Corinthians 5:21.

If being in contact with sinful bodies was a problem, there would be no Eucharist.

btw, your popes have many a number of mistakes in Faith and morals.

Right, He sanctifies everything He touches.  To make His incarnation dependent upon another's pre-sanctity is seriously problematic.  To say it can be true is one thing, but to say it must be is to suppress the sanctifying power of the Savior. 
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« Reply #94 on: March 09, 2013, 01:36:54 AM »

I have to accept the Immaculate Conception of the BVM, otherwise how could the body of our Lord be in contact of the sinful body of his mother while he was in her womb? It's not so hard to believe that the mother of God on earth was given a special grace for this reason.

Didn't Christ eat with tax collectors and didn't he touch lepers?
Well we're talking Original Sin here, being personally guilty since the fall.

Not Christ ministering to sinful humans.

Well there you go.  There is where you stumble, over personal guilt that does not exist. 
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« Reply #95 on: March 09, 2013, 01:41:36 AM »

Rome used leavened bread until about the 8th century.

Yes.  The change to azyma came as the result of a departure from the traditional understanding of the "Last Supper." 
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« Reply #96 on: March 09, 2013, 01:45:37 AM »

When Adam was created he was made of the earth, an earth which had not been cursed yet with sin.  Eve his wife was made from the earth, out of a rib from the side of Adam.  They were not super human, but fully human and free from all stain of sin.

Christ is the new Adam, made from substance free from sin (the Flesh of the Immaculate Virgin Mary). Please consider that Eve and Adam were both made free from sin, and that Catholics are in effect saying that  Jesus our Lord had the same privilege that God had bestowed upon Adam.

But isn't this contrary to what St. Maximos taught?  What is assumed is what is saved.  If Christ assumed a pure flesh different from the flesh we have, then what of us do we have in common with him?  Why does Roman Catholic theology believe that Christ can be defiled?  My understanding of this is that Christ took on our own sinful flesh, that He sanctified by his very being which is the source of all holiness, the same way Christ's baptism in the Jordan sanctified all of creation.  So the Immaculate Conception isn't only unnecessary, it would have been counter to the plan of salvation.

Good post, with emphasis added above. 
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« Reply #97 on: March 09, 2013, 02:13:50 AM »

Being made in "the image and likeness of God" (Gen 1:6) means that man is not an autonomous being and that his ultimate nature is defined by his relation with God, his ‘prototype’. In paradise, Adam and Eve were called to participate in God’s life and to naturally go “from glory to glory”. To be “in God” is, therefore, the natural state of man. This is particularly important when considering ‘human freedom’, because mankind is truly free only when communing with God; otherwise he is a slave to the ‘world’ he was meant to rule.

This implies that separation from God is sin, and visa versa, and the reduction of man to a separate and autonomous existence, in which he is deprived of both his natural glory and his freedom, is the consequence of sin; the image of God being blurred like a moon shadow.

Freedom in God, as enjoyed by Adam and Eve, implied the possibility of falling away from God. This is the unfortunate choice made by mankind, which led our ancestors to a subhuman and unnatural existence and consequential death, which is most unnatural aspect of their new state of being. In this perspective, the common cliché “original sin” is not a state of guilt inherited from Adam and Even, but is an unnatural condition of human life that has not attained immortality. Mortality is what each of us inherits at birth and this is what leads us to struggle for existence, to self-affirmation at the expense of others, and ultimately to be subject to the laws of decay.

The ‘prince of this world’, has dominion over mankind through sin and death; mankind is now freed from this vicious condition through the death and Resurrection of Christ during our Baptism. However, this is a synergy of salvation requiring mankind’s limited repentance, contrition, confession and faith, and God’s infinite grace, as outlined by the likes of St John Cassian many centuries ago.

Therefore, people are fully human only when they participate in God and His Kingdom, where divine life becomes possible. Mankind does not inherit "Original sin" but, instead, an unrealised immortality.
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« Reply #98 on: March 09, 2013, 02:27:34 AM »

Rome used leavened bread until about the 8th century.

Yes.  The change to azyma came as the result of a departure from the traditional understanding of the "Last Supper." 


Father, what about the use of unleavened bread in the OO?
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« Reply #99 on: March 09, 2013, 07:43:58 AM »

Quote
 They say that Mary was conceived Immaculately and that the Pope is infallible.

The pope is only infallible concerning issues on faith and morals.

I have to accept the Immaculate Conception of the BVM, otherwise how could the body of our Lord be in contact of the sinful body of his mother while he was in her womb? It's not so hard to believe that the mother of God on earth was given a special grace for this reason.
"He made Him Who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" II Corinthians 5:21.

If being in contact with sinful bodies was a problem, there would be no Eucharist.

btw, your popes have many a number of mistakes in Faith and morals.

Right, He sanctifies everything He touches.  To make His incarnation dependent upon another's pre-sanctity is seriously problematic.  To say it can be true is one thing, but to say it must be is to suppress the sanctifying power of the Savior. 

That sounds about right to me.  Smiley
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« Reply #100 on: March 09, 2013, 07:44:49 AM »

You mean the Vatican's.  Those who believe in the Catholic Church's position

No, as we Catholics can

Side question that perhaps you or another Catholic could answer for me: Who are these "Orthodox" mentioned in the section title "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion"?  

Wink

Its the non-masons.  There's no way around it.  

Not sure what that means but  laugh .
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« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2013, 06:42:21 AM »

Quote
  They say that Mary was conceived Immaculately and that the Pope is infallible.

The pope is only infallible concerning issues on faith and morals.

I have to accept the Immaculate Conception of the BVM, otherwise how could the body of our Lord be in contact of the sinful body of his mother while he was in her womb? It's not so hard to believe that the mother of God on earth was given a special grace for this reason.

Why not extend that back further? That Mary's mother had to be a pure vessel in order to contain Mary (a pure vessel). And therefore Mary's grand-mother had to be as well, to contain Mary's mother... and so on
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« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2013, 06:45:18 AM »

Quote
 They say that Mary was conceived Immaculately and that the Pope is infallible.

The pope is only infallible concerning issues on faith and morals.

I have to accept the Immaculate Conception of the BVM, otherwise how could the body of our Lord be in contact of the sinful body of his mother while he was in her womb? It's not so hard to believe that the mother of God on earth was given a special grace for this reason.

Because the Theotokos was purified in the womb of her mother. So far before Christ was ever born. Furthermore, Aquinas or bernard of Clairveaux didn't have any problem in holding both to Mary being born with original sin and Jesus being immaculately born.

So very bad argument, is that what is taugh in RCIA? And by the way, if you go by this logic, Mary's ancestors must all have been touched by this special Grace. If you reply that it was not necessary, then it was not necessary for Mary either.





When Adam was created he was made of the earth, an earth which had not been cursed yet with sin.  Eve his wife was made from the earth, out of a rib from the side of Adam.  They were not super human, but fully human and free from all stain of sin.

Christ is the new Adam, made from substance free from sin (the Flesh of the Immaculate Virgin Mary). Please consider that Eve and Adam were both made free from sin, and that Catholics are in effect saying that  Jesus our Lord had the same privilege that God had bestowed upon Adam.



That doesn't make sense. If Mary is akin to Eve then her mother is akin to the earth... which you say was without sin. Therefore Mary's mother was without sin. Else the analogy fails.

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« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2013, 07:01:19 PM »

Rome used leavened bread until about the 8th century.

Yes.  The change to azyma came as the result of a departure from the traditional understanding of the "Last Supper." 


Father, what about the use of unleavened bread in the OO?

Wasn't the use of unleavened bread introduced among the Armenians at the same time as the skyscraper Latin Mitre usage? 
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« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2013, 08:42:37 PM »

Rome used leavened bread until about the 8th century.

Yes.  The change to azyma came as the result of a departure from the traditional understanding of the "Last Supper." 


Father, what about the use of unleavened bread in the OO?

Wasn't the use of unleavened bread introduced among the Armenians at the same time as the skyscraper Latin Mitre usage? 

I don't know, that is why I ask Smiley

I haven't really spent any time reading on OO history.
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« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2013, 06:57:22 AM »

So why did Christ need to give us sacraments at all? Why not just become incarnate and leave it at that?

The thing is, all three are connected.  Taking on the same flesh we have and becoming incarnate and then giving us the Sacraments.
I never said he didn't take on the same flesh. I just said his human nature was not damages as ours was. If I draw a well drawn triangle and a poorly drawn triangle, both posses the same triangle nature. It's just that one instantiates it better than another.

It's not damaged because he perfected it.  I think the wrong understanding is that Christ needed a pure nature because he might become tainted.  He is the source of all holiness, he can never be tainted.  Darkness cannot overcome light.  That is why the fallen humanity we have becomes perfected the instant Christ comes in contact with it as he took it on.
Exactly, and thus, the reason why Christ's human nature is perfect.

So, why exactly, then, do you need the IC? If you agree with us then what exactly does the addition of the IC give you? Even putting the best possible spin on it (and to be honest I find it hard to honestly do so), it just seems utterly pointless.

James

Because of Original Sin.  Because Christ is the new Adam and the Theotokos is the new Eve, they have to be, like Adam and Eve, have perfect human nature.  Because Adam and Eve were made without original sin, Christ and Mary too should not have it.
At best true of Christ (and then not even), not true of the Holy Theotokos at all.

Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
Romans 5:11-12

The point so, of new Eve and new Adam is not the way they were made, but what they accomplished. That is they did obey God to the End, what Adam and Eve were supposed to do, but didn't.

Justin Martyr: [Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Dialogue with Trypho, 100).


so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down.

This is the meaning of New Adam and New Eve.

Irenaeus “Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, "Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word." Eve…who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children…having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race….Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24).

The parallel that St Irenaeus is making is Eve desobediance vs Mary obediance. Mary did what Eve should have done. Nothing to do with the way Eve or Mary were created. As such, expressions such as new Eve do not necesarely imply the immaculate conception of Mary.



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« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2013, 08:32:24 PM »

Wow, thats a lot written.


First of all the Immaculate Conception is a mystery.  Second it was defined because a large debate was raging in the west at the time over it from different schools and the Pope was appealed to to make a decision on it, by many Bishops, Priests and laymen.  We also believe that the Miracle of Lourdes and other subsequent Miracles of our Lady being invoked under the title of the Immaculate Conception are confirmation of this dogma.

Just because Our Lady is obedient does not cause the effect that she was not immaculately conceived Napoletani,

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

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« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2013, 06:42:50 AM »

Wow, thats a lot written.


First of all the Immaculate Conception is a mystery.  Second it was defined because a large debate was raging in the west at the time over it from different schools and the Pope was appealed to to make a decision on it, by many Bishops, Priests and laymen.  We also believe that the Miracle of Lourdes and other subsequent Miracles of our Lady being invoked under the title of the Immaculate Conception are confirmation of this dogma.

Just because Our Lady is obedient does not cause the effect that she was not immaculately conceived Napoletani,

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).



None of those quotes are related to the IC, only with her purity when Christ was concieved. Since the Fathers believed she was purified in the womb of her mother by Grace. So nothing to do with the IC, but nice try.

And dont confuse things. All i did was to show that new Eve does not mean necessarely IC, i didnt say it refutes the IC. Dont change the roles.
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« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2013, 07:08:13 AM »

Quote
Since the Fathers believed she was purified in the womb of her mother by Grace.

The most explicit pronouncement by the Church, as expressed in the hymnography, on when the Virgin was fully purified is at the Annunciation. From Matins of that feast:

The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my soul; it has sanctified my body: it has made me a temple containing God, a divinely adorned Tabernacle, a living Sanctuary, and the pure Mother of Life.

You appear to me to speak the truth, answered the Virgin. For you have come as a messenger, bringing joy to all. Since then I am purified in soul and body by the Spirit, let it happen to me according to your word: May God now dwell in me. I cry aloud to Him with you: All works of the Lord, bless the Lord.




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« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2013, 07:40:41 AM »

Wow, thats a lot written.


First of all the Immaculate Conception is a mystery.  Second it was defined because a large debate was raging in the west at the time over it from different schools and the Pope was appealed to to make a decision on it, by many Bishops, Priests and laymen.  We also believe that the Miracle of Lourdes and other subsequent Miracles of our Lady being invoked under the title of the Immaculate Conception are confirmation of this dogma.

Just because Our Lady is obedient does not cause the effect that she was not immaculately conceived Napoletani,

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).



What debate? I find the Catholic 'ecumenical' councils run differently from the ones we hold in common (and even the council in Acts 15)

All these were 'reactive'; some great controversy needed to be settled. Perhaps a reaction against heretical teaching.

Take Vatican I by comparison, what great heresy was sweeping through the Catholic world that it needed to be called in order to address it?
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« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2013, 08:47:51 AM »

A few questions:

1. Is there salvation for the Catholic who does not believe in the IC?
2. Is there salvation for the Catholic who does not believe in the Infallibility of the Pope?
3. Is there salvation for the Catholic who does not believe in the Supremacy of the Pope?

I use the term Catholic to reference the Western Christian church here.
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« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2013, 11:09:28 AM »

A few questions:

1. Is there salvation for the Catholic who does not believe in the IC?
2. Is there salvation for the Catholic who does not believe in the Infallibility of the Pope?
3. Is there salvation for the Catholic who does not believe in the Supremacy of the Pope?

I use the term Catholic to reference the Western Christian church here.

Maybe.

God knows.
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« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2013, 11:36:15 AM »

Wow, thats a lot written.


First of all the Immaculate Conception is a mystery.  Second it was defined because a large debate was raging in the west at the time over it from different schools and the Pope was appealed to to make a decision on it, by many Bishops, Priests and laymen.  We also believe that the Miracle of Lourdes and other subsequent Miracles of our Lady being invoked under the title of the Immaculate Conception are confirmation of this dogma.

Just because Our Lady is obedient does not cause the effect that she was not immaculately conceived Napoletani,

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).



What debate? I find the Catholic 'ecumenical' councils run differently from the ones we hold in common (and even the council in Acts 15)

All these were 'reactive'; some great controversy needed to be settled. Perhaps a reaction against heretical teaching.

Take Vatican I by comparison, what great heresy was sweeping through the Catholic world that it needed to be called in order to address it?
Sweeping through the Vatican. LOL. Il Risorgimento
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« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2013, 11:36:15 AM »

Quote
 They say that Mary was conceived Immaculately and that the Pope is infallible.

The pope is only infallible concerning issues on faith and morals.

I have to accept the Immaculate Conception of the BVM, otherwise how could the body of our Lord be in contact of the sinful body of his mother while he was in her womb? It's not so hard to believe that the mother of God on earth was given a special grace for this reason.
"He made Him Who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" II Corinthians 5:21.

If being in contact with sinful bodies was a problem, there would be no Eucharist.

btw, your popes have many a number of mistakes in Faith and morals.

Right, He sanctifies everything He touches.  To make His incarnation dependent upon another's pre-sanctity is seriously problematic.  To say it can be true is one thing, but to say it must be is to suppress the sanctifying power of the Savior. 
yes, and eliminate her synergy in the Incarnation, which would be deprived of her free will, and thus no Incarnation at all. At least not one consubstantial with us.
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« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2013, 05:03:16 PM »

Wow, thats a lot written.


First of all the Immaculate Conception is a mystery.  Second it was defined because a large debate was raging in the west at the time over it from different schools and the Pope was appealed to to make a decision on it, by many Bishops, Priests and laymen.  We also believe that the Miracle of Lourdes and other subsequent Miracles of our Lady being invoked under the title of the Immaculate Conception are confirmation of this dogma.

Just because Our Lady is obedient does not cause the effect that she was not immaculately conceived Napoletani,

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).



What debate? I find the Catholic 'ecumenical' councils run differently from the ones we hold in common (and even the council in Acts 15)

All these were 'reactive'; some great controversy needed to be settled. Perhaps a reaction against heretical teaching.

Take Vatican I by comparison, what great heresy was sweeping through the Catholic world that it needed to be called in order to address it?

Good point. Vatican I was a lot different, in that regard, even from Trent.
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« Reply #115 on: March 12, 2013, 05:58:47 PM »

Wow, thats a lot written.


First of all the Immaculate Conception is a mystery.  Second it was defined because a large debate was raging in the west at the time over it from different schools and the Pope was appealed to to make a decision on it, by many Bishops, Priests and laymen.  We also believe that the Miracle of Lourdes and other subsequent Miracles of our Lady being invoked under the title of the Immaculate Conception are confirmation of this dogma.

Just because Our Lady is obedient does not cause the effect that she was not immaculately conceived Napoletani,

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).



What debate? I find the Catholic 'ecumenical' councils run differently from the ones we hold in common (and even the council in Acts 15)

All these were 'reactive'; some great controversy needed to be settled. Perhaps a reaction against heretical teaching.

Take Vatican I by comparison, what great heresy was sweeping through the Catholic world that it needed to be called in order to address it?

The Protestant Reformation.  I take everything from Trent and afterwards as a Counter Reformation act by the RC Church.
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« Reply #116 on: March 14, 2013, 10:10:53 AM »

Wow, thats a lot written.


First of all the Immaculate Conception is a mystery.  Second it was defined because a large debate was raging in the west at the time over it from different schools and the Pope was appealed to to make a decision on it, by many Bishops, Priests and laymen.  We also believe that the Miracle of Lourdes and other subsequent Miracles of our Lady being invoked under the title of the Immaculate Conception are confirmation of this dogma.

Just because Our Lady is obedient does not cause the effect that she was not immaculately conceived Napoletani,

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).



What debate? I find the Catholic 'ecumenical' councils run differently from the ones we hold in common (and even the council in Acts 15)

All these were 'reactive'; some great controversy needed to be settled. Perhaps a reaction against heretical teaching.

Take Vatican I by comparison, what great heresy was sweeping through the Catholic world that it needed to be called in order to address it?

The Protestant Reformation.  I take everything from Trent and afterwards as a Counter Reformation act by the RC Church.

Thus declares Choy.  Grin
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« Reply #117 on: March 15, 2013, 01:02:02 AM »

Thus declares Choy.  Grin

What heresies do you think were raging through the church that Vatican II addressed?

My experience from Vatican II was turning up to Mass as per usual, but finding a young man sitting up the front with long hair and an acoustic guitar who lead us (not through hymns) but songs such as "Let it Be".
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« Reply #118 on: March 15, 2013, 01:15:44 AM »

Thus declares Choy.  Grin

What heresies do you think were raging through the church that Vatican II addressed?

My experience from Vatican II was turning up to Mass as per usual, but finding a young man sitting up the front with long hair and an acoustic guitar who lead us (not through hymns) but songs such as "Let it Be".

Or "If I had a hammer."
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« Reply #119 on: March 15, 2013, 01:34:18 AM »

No. Both have changed in the manner you are thinking of.
I would tend to agree with you.
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« Reply #120 on: March 15, 2013, 01:42:33 AM »


My experience from Vatican II was turning up to Mass as per usual, but finding a young man sitting up the front with long hair and an acoustic guitar who lead us (not through hymns) but songs such as "Let it Be".
But now you are going to have a version of the Catholic New Mass accompanied by guitars in the Syrian Orthodox Church:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50404.msg894424.html#msg894424
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« Reply #121 on: March 15, 2013, 01:46:55 AM »

I never said he didn't take on the same flesh. I just said his human nature was not damages as ours was.
Bad understanding of human nature at best, Docetism at worst.

So Christ was walking around with an impassible resurrection body during his ministry?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 01:49:13 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #122 on: March 15, 2013, 01:54:15 AM »

Thus declares Choy.  Grin

What heresies do you think were raging through the church that Vatican II addressed?

My experience from Vatican II was turning up to Mass as per usual, but finding a young man sitting up the front with long hair and an acoustic guitar who lead us (not through hymns) but songs such as "Let it Be".

Or "If I had a hammer."
Ha ha ha. I like that one.
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« Reply #123 on: March 15, 2013, 02:04:45 AM »

the gnomic will would still be left intact
On another note, Isa,

Does the gnomic will continue to exist it if it is not used/rejected entirely, as in a saint on earth? If so, how does it exist?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 02:05:35 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #124 on: March 15, 2013, 02:19:24 AM »


It would be nice if He told us He did it, if He had done it.

He didn't tell us because He didn't do it: the antidote to the basis of the IC-potuit, decuit, ergo fecit.

So God told us about everything He did?
Everything that non-belief thereof would lead to hell fire through a "shipwreck of of [our] Faith," yes.
-snipped-

Only in the Orthodox understanding of the divine will and the human will in the hypostatically united will of the one person of Christ is the Good News proclaimed.
Thanks for this post, it's explained simply enough for me.
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« Reply #125 on: March 15, 2013, 04:27:58 AM »

Wow, thats a lot written.


First of all the Immaculate Conception is a mystery.  Second it was defined because a large debate was raging in the west at the time over it from different schools and the Pope was appealed to to make a decision on it, by many Bishops, Priests and laymen.  We also believe that the Miracle of Lourdes and other subsequent Miracles of our Lady being invoked under the title of the Immaculate Conception are confirmation of this dogma.

Just because Our Lady is obedient does not cause the effect that she was not immaculately conceived Napoletani,

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).



What debate? I find the Catholic 'ecumenical' councils run differently from the ones we hold in common (and even the council in Acts 15)

All these were 'reactive'; some great controversy needed to be settled. Perhaps a reaction against heretical teaching.

Take Vatican I by comparison, what great heresy was sweeping through the Catholic world that it needed to be called in order to address it?

The Protestant Reformation.  I take everything from Trent and afterwards as a Counter Reformation act by the RC Church.

Thus declares Choy.  Grin

Well, you can see for yourself how radically the Roman Catholic Church has changed since the reformation (including the beliefs), or you can choose to be blind to it.
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« Reply #126 on: March 15, 2013, 04:36:22 AM »

The one thing I always chuckle over are the RCs being the first Protestants.
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« Reply #127 on: March 15, 2013, 09:35:45 PM »

The one thing I always chuckle over are the RCs being the first Protestants.

Does that mean you don't chuckle over the Orthodox being the first Protestants?

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« Reply #128 on: March 16, 2013, 08:04:20 AM »

The one thing I always chuckle over are the RCs being the first Protestants.

Does that mean you don't chuckle over the Orthodox being the first Protestants?

Wink
Cardinal Umberto came over to us to protest for his supreme pontiff Leo IX.  We were just fine if ya'll would have minded your own business.
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This is what I hinted at, and what you understand very rightly, viz., that all Protestants are Crypto-Papists; and indeed it would be a very easy task to show that in their Theology (as well as philosophy) all the definitions of all the objects of creed or understanding are merely taken out of the old Latin System, though often negatived in the application.  To use the concise language of algebra, all the West knows but one datum a; whether it be preceded by the positive sign +, as with the Romanists, or with the negative –, as with the Protestants, the a remains the same.  Now a passage to Orthodoxy seems indeed like an apostasy from the past, from its science, creed and life. It is rushing into a new and unknown world.”  When the Unity of the Church was lawlessly and unlovingly rent by the Western clergy, the more so inasmuch as at the same time the East was continuing its former friendly intercourse, and submitting to the opinion of the Western Synods the Canons of the second Council of Nicea, each half of Christianity began a life apart, becoming from day to day more estranged from the other. There was an evident selfcomplacent triumph on the side of the Latins; there was sorrow on the side of the East, which had seen the dear ties of Christian brotherhood torn asunder, — which had been spurned and rejected, and felt itself innocent. All these feelings have been transmitted by hereditary succession to our time, and more or less, either willingly or unwillingly, we are still under their power. Our time has awakened better feelings; in England, perhaps, more than anywhere else, you are seeking for the past brotherhood, for the past sympathy and communion. It would be a shame for us not to answer your proffered friendship, it would be a crime not to cultivate in our hearts an intense desire to renovate the Unity of the Church; but let us consider the question coolly, even when our sympathies are most awakened.
Russia and the English Church during the last fifty years.
http://books.google.com/books?id=REJbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA67&dq=%22Now+a+passage+to+Orthodoxy+seems+indeed+like+an+apostacy%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=q9ZDUd66LaGi2gX81YDoAw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Now%20a%20passage%20to%20Orthodoxy%20seems%20indeed%20like%20an%20apostacy%22&f=false
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« Reply #129 on: March 16, 2013, 09:21:43 AM »



I see. But then RC's would quote "full of grace" and say that it somehow implies the IC.

The Blessed Mother was full of grace because of her steadfast obedience to God's word. The Theotokos is the great example not the great exception.  The saints are full of grace that doesn't make them a result of an IC.
The only IC was the conception of Our Lord Jesus Christ....
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