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Author Topic: Is rebaptism never possible?  (Read 609 times) Average Rating: 0
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Theophilos78
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« on: February 27, 2013, 06:18:44 PM »

I have regrets concerning my baptism. I wonder if it is never possible to cancel (forget about) the first baptism and get a new one. A metropolitan saw my baptismal certificate and said that it was valid. However, I feel uncomfortable about it and deem it crucial to renew baptism in order to receive the Lord. What would happen if I received baptism from a non-Orthodox denomination and then rejoined the Orthodox Church?  Cry
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2013, 06:23:15 PM »

Start your own denomination. Why to bother if you know better than the Church?
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2013, 06:29:42 PM »

Start your own denomination. Why to bother if you know better than the Church?

That's impossible since I have no time!  Grin

The only possibility is that I remain a member of the Orthodox Church, but never receive any of the sacraments.
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2013, 06:32:42 PM »

There are 2 choices for you: you will accept the Church' teachings or you will leave. I'm sorry but the Church won't change for you. You won't become Orthodox Luther.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:32:55 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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Theophilos78
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2013, 06:33:43 PM »

There are 2 choices for you: you will accept the Church' teachings or you will leave. I'm sorry but the Church won't change for you. You won't become Orthodox Luther.

What if I first leave and get the baptism from another denomination and then return?  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 06:36:00 PM »

What if I first leave and get the baptism from another denomination and then return?  Wink

I cannot answer sincerely because I'd have to warn myself for ad hominems.

It seems you were baptised to soon since you have no clue what Orthodox Christianity is about. Complete your education, that will help, really.

If you want to become Protestant, go for it. Quietly. But please, don't start such threads just to seek attention.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:37:25 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 06:39:14 PM »

I have regrets concerning my baptism. I wonder if it is never possible to cancel (forget about) the first baptism and get a new one. A metropolitan saw my baptismal certificate and said that it was valid. However, I feel uncomfortable about it and deem it crucial to renew baptism in order to receive the Lord. What would happen if I received baptism from a non-Orthodox denomination and then rejoined the Orthodox Church?  Cry

This is only my opinion and it may have some validity but, If you are baptized in the Orthodox Faith any other baptisms would have NO effect on you.  IOW, you cant start over again. You can try to fool yourself into thinking so but in reality it wont work.  

My priest accepted the Trinitarian baptism of the Episcopal church as a valid baptism and I was received by Chrismation only.  When I was a Roman Catholic I was "Conditionally Baptized" which means that If and only if the first baptism was not a valid one THEN and only then would this conditional baptism make this valid.  My priest didn't even bother to question my conditional baptism since he felt the original baptism was good.
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« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 06:41:53 PM »

Theophilos78 doubts in his baptism because it was done in Arabic. And he believes Arabic is the Devil's language or something like that. No theological reasons.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:44:35 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 06:45:25 PM »

What would happen if I received baptism from a non-Orthodox denomination and then rejoined the Orthodox Church?  Cry

Far from receiving the Lord, you would merely have sullied your Orthodox baptism with the sin of apostasy.

Theophilos78 doubts in his baptism because it was done in Arabic. And he believes Arabic is the Devil's language or something like that. No theological reasons.

The word "Allah" doesn't even feature in the baptismal formula in Arabic, nor in the sealing with chrism (not that it would matter even if it did).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:48:24 PM by Orthodox11 » Logged
Theophilos78
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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 06:47:41 PM »

Theophilos78 doubts in his baptism because it was done in Arabic. And he believes Arabic is the Devils' language or something like that. No theological reasons.

No, not exactly. I only dislike Arabic, but I do not consider it devil's language.  Grin

My reasons:

1) I was not baptized by triple immersion.
2) My God-mother is non-Orthodox.
3) I I live far from the church where I was baptized and thus cannot get my certificate updated although I have to since I officially changed my name on the id card.
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 06:50:59 PM »

1) I was not baptized by triple immersion.

How was it done and by whom?

Quote
2) My God-mother is non-Orthodox.

That should certainly not have been permitted, but this does not affect your baptism in any way. Even if you had no godparent you would still be baptised.

Quote
3) I I live far from the church where I was baptized and thus cannot get my certificate updated although I have to since I officially changed my name on the id card.

I don't see what that has to do with your baptism being valid or not.
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Theophilos78
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 06:52:53 PM »

1) I was not baptized by triple immersion.

How was it done and by whom?

An Arabic priest from the Antiochian diocese poured water on my head.
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 06:54:29 PM »

1) I was not baptized by triple immersion.

I suppose the church didn't have baptistery your size since you are a grown up man. Wouldn't that be also illegal in Turkey?

Quote
2) My God-mother is non-Orthodox.
[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=50227.msg889626#msg889626

It's OK here as soon as the godparent corresponding to baptised's sex was Orthodox
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 06:57:01 PM »

An Arabic priest from the Antiochian diocese poured water on my head.

If it was done thrice, in the name of the Holy Trinity, by an Orthodox priest, you shouldn't worry. Such a form should really only be used in an emergency, but it is a true baptism nonetheless.
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 06:57:57 PM »


I suppose the church didn't have baptistery your size since you are a grown up man. Wouldn't that be also illegal in Turkey?


Not illegal. Some people are baptized in sea.
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2013, 07:05:40 PM »

I wanted to say sorry for my earlier remarks. Your reasons are unfounded but not as ridiculous as I thought they were.
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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2013, 07:07:40 PM »

"Rebaptism" is not possible.  Being baptised in the Orthodox manner after having been improperly baptised in the past is possible.


Theophilos78 doubts in his baptism because it was done in Arabic. And he believes Arabic is the Devils' language or something like that. No theological reasons.

No, not exactly. I only dislike Arabic, but I do not consider it devil's language.  Grin

My reasons:

1) I was not baptized by triple immersion.
2) My God-mother is non-Orthodox.
3) I I live far from the church where I was baptized and thus cannot get my certificate updated although I have to since I officially changed my name on the id card.
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« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2013, 07:16:42 PM »

"Rebaptism" is not possible.  Being baptised in the Orthodox manner after having been improperly baptised in the past is possible.

Indeed, but from the information Theophilus has supplied thus far, his baptism was Orthodox, and so any subsequent baptism would be "rebaptism" in his case.
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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2013, 09:54:28 AM »

"Rebaptism" is not possible.  Being baptised in the Orthodox manner after having been improperly baptised in the past is possible.

Indeed, but from the information Theophilus has supplied thus far, his baptism was Orthodox, and so any subsequent baptism would be "rebaptism" in his case.

I have not read that into his posts so far.  Simply being baptized by an Orthodox priest means nothing.  He already stated that he was not baptized in the Orthodox manner of triple immersion, so what other shortcuts were taken?  If it is simply a matter that he was baptized by triple pouring rather than triple immersion, I would fully agree with you.  But that has not been confirmed at this point.

BTW - I was involved in a matter such as this, so it is a topic close to my heart.  I understand completely how the OP feels.  But feelings can get us into quite a bit of trouble.  I was once excommunicated from World Orthodoxy (since lifted by the same Bishop who did it, not by running to another jurisdiction) over this matter.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 09:57:44 AM by Punch » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2013, 04:50:59 PM »

I think that if the Church says your Baptism is valid, then your Baptism is valid. I think that trying to shoot for a "rebaptism"--effectively canceling out  your prior Baptism--could potentially be rooted in pride and denial. That is, the desire to feel less accountable for your sins by telling yourself that you were never Baptised, because, after Baptism, we become more accountable and guilty for our sins.
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« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2013, 05:07:41 PM »

I think that if the Church says your Baptism is valid, then your Baptism is valid. I think that trying to shoot for a "rebaptism"--effectively canceling out  your prior Baptism--could potentially be rooted in pride and denial. That is, the desire to feel less accountable for your sins by telling yourself that you were never Baptised, because, after Baptism, we become more accountable and guilty for our sins.

It is a bit more complicated than that.  We also have to be careful when we say "the Church says".  Who is the Church?  And individual Priest or Bishop that decides that he wants to do it his own way?  While what you write may be true in some, or even many cases, it is not always the case.
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« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2013, 05:22:53 PM »

Irregularities are unfortunate, but they occur and people are still saved, still cleansed from sin, and still received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Crush the little demons of doubt with confidence and faith.
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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2013, 05:29:11 PM »

Irregularities are unfortunate, but they occur and people are still saved, still cleansed from sin, and still received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Crush the little demons of doubt with confidence and faith.

So, as long as we think we are baptised, we are? 
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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2013, 05:58:34 PM »

Irregularities are unfortunate, but they occur and people are still saved, still cleansed from sin, and still received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Crush the little demons of doubt with confidence and faith.

So, as long as we think we are baptised, we are? 

Please, do consider the specific context and situation. That is the Orthodox way.

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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2013, 06:05:12 PM »

1) I was not baptized by triple immersion.

How was it done and by whom?

An Arabic priest from the Antiochian diocese poured water on my head.

Triple immersion would have been proper practice but you are still properly baptized Orthodox Christian and any Orthodox hierarch of any Orthodox church will tell you that. Baptism by pouring has always been an acceptable way of doing baptism. See Didache 7:

Quote
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.


Of course it should happen only in exceptional circumstances. Still, even if it is done in non-exceptional circumtances it doesn't have any effect on validity of Baptism.
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« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2013, 01:21:42 PM »

Thanking everyone for the answers and advice.  angel
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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2013, 05:41:37 PM »

Theophilos--I want to add another thing. I forget who said it (may have been Father Schmemann) but you could consider Holy Communion to be an occasion for the remembrance of your baptism and Chrismation. Reread the baptismal service and renew your determination to live as a new creature in the Lord. Remember that each "amen" to every prayer makes that prayer complete, and whoever says the amen (chanter or choir) says it for you as well. Here are some segments that you could hold onto.

"PRIEST:     O Lord and Master, You created man in Your own likeness, and gave him the power of eternal life. You do not despise those who have fallen away through sin, but provide salvation for the world through the incarnation of Your Christ. Likewise, O Lord, deliver this Your created one from the bondage of the enemy, receive him (her) into Your heavenly kingdom. Open the eyes of his (her) understanding, that the illumination of Your Gospel may shine brightly in him (her). Assign to his (her) life an Angel of light who shall deliver him (her) from every snare of the adversary, from encounter with evil, from the demon of the noonday, and from evil thoughts.

The Priest then breathes upon the mouth, brow, and breast of the catechumen, saying:

Expel from him every evil and impure spirit which hideth and maketh its lair in his heart. (This the Priest says thrice)

The spirit of error, the spirit of guile, the spirit of idolatry and of every concupiscence; the spirit of deceit and of every uncleanness which operateth through the prompting of the Devil. And make him a reason-endowed sheep in the holy flock of thy Christ, an honorable member of thy Church, a child of the light, and an heir of thy Kingdom; that having lived in accordance with thy commandments, and preserved inviolate the Seal, and kept his garment undefiled, he may receive the blessedness of the Saints in thy Kingdom. Through the grace and bounties, and love towards mankind of thine Only-begotten Son, with whom thou art blessed, together with thine all-holy and good and life-giving Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen."

"PRIEST:     Dost thou renounce Satan, and all his Angels, and all his works, and all his service, and all his pride?

CATHECUMEN: I do.

PRIEST:     Hast thou renounced Satan?

CATHECUMEN: I have.

PRIEST:     Breathe and spit upon him.

CATHECUMEN then turns to face the East (toward the Altar); as does the Priest.

PRIEST:     Dost thou unite thyself unto Christ?

CATHECUMEN: I do.

PRIEST:     Hast thou united thyself unto Christ?

CATHECUMEN: I have.

PRIEST:     Dost thou believe in him?

CATHECUMEN: I believe in him as King and God.

The CATHECUMEN then says the Creed, the Symbol of the Faith.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begot¬ten, Begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man;

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And the third day He rose again, according to the Script¬ures;

And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets;

And I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the Resurrection of the dead, And the Life of the world to come. Amen.

PRIEST: Hast thou united thyself unto Christ?

CATHECUMEN: I have.

PRIEST:     Bow down also before Him.

CATHECUMEN: (bows and says) I bow down before the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit: the Trinity, one in Essence and undivided.

PRIEST: Blessed is God, who willeth that all men should be saved, and should come to the knowledge of the truth: now and ever, and unto ages of ages.

CHOIR/CATHECUMEN: Amen."

"PRIEST:  Blessed art thou, O Lord God Almighty, Source of all good things, Sun of righteousness, who sheddest forth upon them that were in darkness the light of salvation, through the manifestation of thine Only-begotten Son and our God; and who hast given unto us, unworthy though we be, blessed purification through hallowed water, and divine sanctification, through life-giving Chrismation; who now, also, hast been graciously pleased to regenerate thy servant that hath newly received Illumination by water and the Spirit, and grantest unto him remission of sins, whether voluntary or involuntary. Do thou, the same Master, compassionate King of all, grant also unto him the seal of the gift of thy holy, and almighty, and adorable Spirit, and participation in the holy Body and the precious Blood of thy Christ. Keep him in thy sanctification; confirm him in the Orthodox faith; deliver him from the Evil One, and from the machinations of the same. And preserve his soul in purity and uprightness, through the saving fear of thee; that he may please thee in every deed and word, and may be a child and heir of thy heavenly kingdom. For thou art our God, the God who showeth mercy and saveth; and unto thee do we .ascribe glory: to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Priest then anoints the newly-baptized catechumen with Holy Chrism, making with it the sign of the Cross: On the brow, on the eyes, on the nostrils, on the lips, on both ears, on the breast, on both hands, on both feet, and between the shoulders, saying each time:

The seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

The Catechumen and the people respond each time, saying: Seal."

Above all, your baptismal hymn: "As many as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. Alleluia."
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2013, 08:15:27 PM »

I see rebaptism in my wife's church a lot.

But it is not practiced in the Orthodox Church.

The Anabaptists believe that baptism should be a baptism of faith.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

They received John's Baptism, but were re-baptized.

There are murky waters in the explanation, however, Acts 19:2 does make sense for a believers baptism.

The EO believe that a baptism of "families" most certainly included infants.  The Anabaptists believe that the "innocence" of a little child can save a child.  Matthew 19:4 "For the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those who are like these children."   The Anabaptists include people of mental disability / retardation in this category.

They also believe that a Christian baptized as an infant would have a similar baptism as "John's Baptism".   It's through faith that you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. ie- when one can "really" confess their faith, are mature enough, mentally sound, etc.   This means that if I ever joined the faith my wife grew up in, that they would re-baptize me, as I was Baptized as an infant in the EO church.



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