Author Topic: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?  (Read 3055 times)

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Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« on: February 26, 2013, 03:41:11 PM »
If this is true, is the Roman defense of both primacy and infallibility made problematic?

"The church believes that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger transmutated into Benedict XVI in 2005. By personally choosing to retain the official title “Your Holiness Benedict XVI,” the pope apparently believed there was no going back."  and this: "On Monday afternoon, a day before the Vatican unveiled the title emeritus pope, Archbishop Pier Luigi Celata, the No. 2 official overseeing the church during the interregnum between the pope’s last day and the election of a new pontiff, made the case against calling Benedict just that. “An emeritus bishop reserves some rights,” Celata said, ”He still has a connection to the office.”  " http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/departing-pope-benedicts-daily-activities-shrouded-in-mystery/2013/02/26/99b7d314-801c-11e2-b99e-6baf4ebe42df_story.html....

This would be consistent with Prof. George E. Demacopoulos' article of February 18th. Unfortunately, this link is dead.  http://pennpress.typepad.com/pennpresslog/2013/02/benedict-and-st-peter-a-post-by-george-e-demacopoulos.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PennPressLog+%28Penn+Press+Log%29

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 03:47:43 PM »
If this is true, is the Roman defense of both primacy and infallibility made problematic?

"The church believes that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger transmutated into Benedict XVI in 2005. By personally choosing to retain the official title “Your Holiness Benedict XVI,” the pope apparently believed there was no going back."  and this: "On Monday afternoon, a day before the Vatican unveiled the title emeritus pope, Archbishop Pier Luigi Celata, the No. 2 official overseeing the church during the interregnum between the pope’s last day and the election of a new pontiff, made the case against calling Benedict just that. “An emeritus bishop reserves some rights,” Celata said, ”He still has a connection to the office.”  " http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/departing-pope-benedicts-daily-activities-shrouded-in-mystery/2013/02/26/99b7d314-801c-11e2-b99e-6baf4ebe42df_story.html....

This would be consistent with Prof. George E. Demacopoulos' article of February 18th. Unfortunately, this link is dead.  http://pennpress.typepad.com/pennpresslog/2013/02/benedict-and-st-peter-a-post-by-george-e-demacopoulos.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PennPressLog+%28Penn+Press+Log%29
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 03:48:34 PM »
Some would say it already is problematic.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 06:18:55 PM »
Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 06:24:53 PM »
He will still be a pope? I thought it stops after he retires from the office of bishop of Rom

Offline Nephi

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2013, 06:27:33 PM »
He will still be a pope? I thought it stops after he retires from the office of bishop of Rom

This is what I've been hearing from Catholic theologians and commentators as well. It's a grace given to the individual office holder, and by renouncing the office he loses the graces (i.e. infallibility, etc.).
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 06:27:43 PM by Nephi »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 07:29:47 PM »
Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?
Is Cardinal Martini still in the running this conclave?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2013, 07:40:50 PM »
Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?
Is Cardinal Martini still in the running this conclave?

If it's Carlo Maria Martini you mean, he's dead.

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2013, 07:45:46 PM »
There is Donald Cardinal Weurl, Archbishop of Washington. There is also Theodore Cardinal McCarrick, Emetrius Archbishop of Washington. Both might have the title of Archbishop of Washington, but, only one(Cardinal Weurl) can excerise the office of Archbishop of Washington, I'm sure that this will be the case with the pope as well

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2013, 08:29:23 PM »
Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?
Is Cardinal Martini still in the running this conclave?

If it's Carlo Maria Martini you mean, he's dead.
I'll take that as a no, although that is necessarily so in Chicago and Missouri.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2013, 08:51:59 PM »
Unnecessary concern, in my opinion.  The Roman Catholic Church has plenty of precedents for retired hierarchs who have the discretion to remove themselves from public ecclesial pronouncements and participate in limited activities, only with their superior hierarch's authorization.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, we likewise have not only hierarchs, but primates, including Ecumenical Patriarchs, who have stepped aside as "Former Patriarch of ____," who do not involve themselves in public critique of ecclesial affairs. (Patriarch Athenagoras' predecessor lived many years into Patriarch Athenagoras' tenure--he passed from this life 6 months before his successor, and only a few knew of his activities, in his private life, except for the seminarians at the Halki Theological School, for whom he was a counsellor, with his successor's authorization.)

The potential exists for a disruptive retired hierarch, but the superior hierarch would have the means to silence such a disobedient hierarch.  And Pope Benedict has demonstrated his character of humility and respect for church authority.

As for the matter of the "infallibility," a Pope is infallible when he speaks "Ex-Cathedra," "From the Throne;" a retired pontiff would not have such an ability.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 08:59:44 PM by Basil 320 »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2013, 10:21:45 PM »
Unnecessary concern, in my opinion.  The Roman Catholic Church has plenty of precedents for retired hierarchs who have the discretion to remove themselves from public ecclesial pronouncements and participate in limited activities, only with their superior hierarch's authorization.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, we likewise have not only hierarchs, but primates, including Ecumenical Patriarchs, who have stepped aside as "Former Patriarch of ____," who do not involve themselves in public critique of ecclesial affairs. (Patriarch Athenagoras' predecessor lived many years into Patriarch Athenagoras' tenure--he passed from this life 6 months before his successor, and only a few knew of his activities, in his private life, except for the seminarians at the Halki Theological School, for whom he was a counsellor, with his successor's authorization.)

The potential exists for a disruptive retired hierarch, but the superior hierarch would have the means to silence such a disobedient hierarch.  And Pope Benedict has demonstrated his character of humility and respect for church authority.

As for the matter of the "infallibility," a Pope is infallible when he speaks "Ex-Cathedra," "From the Throne;" a retired pontiff would not have such an ability.
Not that it is important with the particular person involved, but with a retired "supreme pontiff" we are dealing with a whole different animal than retired patriarchs (who can be troublesome enough: not all have been so quiet as the example you give), and there have been ones who retired and then changed their minds.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2013, 11:38:39 PM »
I don't believe any problem would arise from Pope Benedict XVI. If the new Pope, though, proves to be excessively liberal, then Benedict XVI would probably make some remark. But I don't believe Rome would go the Anglican/Episcopal way of taking outright scandalous decisions. A liberal pope could further the liturgical problems in Rome, dillute it even more into bad ecumenism (and some from our own side would jump right into it), or, God forbid, give renewed strength to the Marxist Theology of Liberation. Now, this "moderate" liberalism would be worse than the explicit one because many people would not notice what is going on. But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans, meaning not cessation of dialogue, but starting dialogue from what matters, acknowledging differences. Actually, I'd have one that is a real traditionalist of Western Catholicism, to the point he would recognize that infallibility and universal jurisdiction were never part of the tradition of the Western Church, but I digress. :)
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 10:15:24 AM »
Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

That's not the question. I think that the issue goes to some of the theology, or at least defensive apologetics, used by the Roman Catholic Church to explain and/or justify her teachings one the "unique Petrine ministry" of the Papacy. If the unique attributes of the office can be viewed by the Church as being so attached to a pope during his reign short of deposition for cause, even one as troubling as and historically amoral as Alexander Sixtus, how can a "resignation" void the special "attributes" vested in a man by the ascension to the Papal Office?  

Pope Benedict is by all appearances a pious and sincere priest and bishop. He isn't the issue . It goes to the "dogmatic" uniqueness of the office itself.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 10:19:24 AM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 10:53:55 AM »
He will still be a pope? I thought it stops after he retires from the office of bishop of Rom

Once His Holiness retires his ring will be destroyed, to prevent any false documents to be released.  This is always done when a pope dies.  He will also still wear white, but not retain the white cape and the red shoes are gone too.

Here's a link to an article on what I've said:
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/26/17100856-pope-to-wear-white-but-no-red-shoes-after-abdication?lite
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 10:56:23 AM by Monk Vasyl »
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2013, 11:20:16 AM »
Unnecessary concern, in my opinion.  The Roman Catholic Church has plenty of precedents for retired hierarchs who have the discretion to remove themselves from public ecclesial pronouncements and participate in limited activities, only with their superior hierarch's authorization.

Hasn't there only been one previous Pope who "retired"?  Pope Celestine V.

....and wasn't he captured, imprisoned and died (some say executed) 10 months later, by the new  Pope Boniface VIII?

I heard in a report, that the new Pope, and others, were extremely worried about two Popes being alive at the same time....so, the old one was dealt with...even though all he wanted was to go back and live as a monastic.

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2013, 11:24:17 AM »
But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.
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Offline James2

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2013, 12:58:00 PM »
The situation certainly won't be as bad as the Great Western Schism when there were two (and later three) active bishops claiming to be pope and recognized as such by various segments of the church.  But the precedents that Pope Benedict XVI sets during his retirement will certainly be important, since some of his successors may elect to follow in his footsteps and voluntarily relinquish the papacy.  In other words, having a retired pope could become a recurring feature of the Catholic Church.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2013, 01:11:34 PM »
Hasn't there only been one previous Pope who "retired"?  Pope Celestine V.

....and wasn't he captured, imprisoned and died (some say executed) 10 months later, by the new  Pope Boniface VIII?

I heard in a report, that the new Pope, and others, were extremely worried about two Popes being alive at the same time....so, the old one was dealt with...even though all he wanted was to go back and live as a monastic.

Celestine V, according to Wikipedia, seems to have fully voluntarily resigned in order to return to his "pre-papal" life. The following pope feared his being instated as an antipope. So it was more of a matter of fearing a possible antipope rather than the retired Celestine V actually having authority or power as a pope.

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2013, 01:17:20 PM »

Yes, so, what's to stop that situation from repeating with the future RC Pope and retired Pope Benedict?
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013, 01:18:45 PM »
He will still be a pope? I thought it stops after he retires from the office of bishop of Rom

Once His Holiness retires his ring will be destroyed, to prevent any false documents to be released.


Offline Nephi

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2013, 02:17:30 PM »
Yes, so, what's to stop that situation from repeating with the future RC Pope and retired Pope Benedict?

What's to stop anyone from electing an antipope at any other time?

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 03:21:49 PM »
Yes, so, what's to stop that situation from repeating with the future RC Pope and retired Pope Benedict?

What's to stop anyone from electing an antipope at any other time?

Well there is that Pope Michael.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2013, 06:50:39 PM »
Some would say it already is problematic.

I honestly don't see a problem with a retired pope.  Im pretty sure Pope Benedict will keep to himself and practice humility even IF he feels that the new Pope may be taking his church in a questionable direction.  I cant believe however that they would not meet from time to time and swap stories swap opinions or whatever.  No, right now I don't see a problem, this doesn't mean there wont be any but from where I sit things will go smoothly........

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2013, 07:48:25 PM »

Yes, so, what's to stop that situation from repeating with the future RC Pope and retired Pope Benedict?

Sorry to be blunt but Pope Benedict XVI may not have long to live. I am not trying to be mean. I don't imagine he'll be taking on any super-draining and stressful things from now on. Just my opinion, though.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2013, 09:58:05 PM »
If anyone's interested, I'm starting a society for people who believe that Benedict will continue to be pope until his death.
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2013, 10:22:43 PM »
Why the fuss? It would be no different to what happens with retired senior military officers. The continued use of their former title, at least in face-to-face contact, is a proper courtesy recognizing their past service.
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2013, 10:38:20 PM »
Why the fuss? It would be no different to what happens with retired senior military officers. The continued use of their former title, at least in face-to-face contact, is a proper courtesy recognizing their past service.

I think that's a good way to say it.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2013, 11:26:03 PM »
Why the fuss? It would be no different to what happens with retired senior military officers. The continued use of their former title, at least in face-to-face contact, is a proper courtesy recognizing their past service.
Not exactly: a retired general doesn't pose the same problem that a abdicated monarch does.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2013, 11:32:15 PM »
If anyone's interested, I'm starting a society for people who believe that Benedict will continue to be pope until his death.

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

I find it difficult to estimate how much (or little) sense of humor exists on this forum; so just to be on the safe side I'll add that neither of those posts were meant seriously.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2013, 11:33:27 PM »
Not exactly: a retired general doesn't pose the same problem that a abdicated monarch does.

Except there is no problem unless he sets himself up as an antipope or whatever, no different than any other hierarch being set up as an antipope and claiming the office of the Bishop of Rome.

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2013, 11:35:06 PM »
If anyone's interested, I'm starting a society for people who believe that Benedict will continue to be pope until his death.

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

I find it difficult to estimate how much (or little) sense of humor exists on this forum; so just to be on the safe side I'll add that neither of those posts were meant seriously.

Good, I like the Ambrosian rite and couldn't figure why you would diss it.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2013, 02:28:07 AM »
Not exactly: a retired general doesn't pose the same problem that a abdicated monarch does.

Except there is no problem unless he sets himself up as an antipope or whatever, no different than any other hierarch being set up as an antipope and claiming the office of the Bishop of Rome.
Except that no one can challenge his legitimacy.  It has happened before.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2013, 02:37:39 AM »
Unnecessary concern, in my opinion.  The Roman Catholic Church has plenty of precedents for retired hierarchs who have the discretion to remove themselves from public ecclesial pronouncements and participate in limited activities, only with their superior hierarch's authorization.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, we likewise have not only hierarchs, but primates, including Ecumenical Patriarchs, who have stepped aside as "Former Patriarch of ____," who do not involve themselves in public critique of ecclesial affairs. (Patriarch Athenagoras' predecessor lived many years into Patriarch Athenagoras' tenure--he passed from this life 6 months before his successor, and only a few knew of his activities, in his private life, except for the seminarians at the Halki Theological School, for whom he was a counsellor, with his successor's authorization.)

The potential exists for a disruptive retired hierarch, but the superior hierarch would have the means to silence such a disobedient hierarch.  And Pope Benedict has demonstrated his character of humility and respect for church authority.

As for the matter of the "infallibility," a Pope is infallible when he speaks "Ex-Cathedra," "From the Throne;" a retired pontiff would not have such an ability.
This is a rather recent state of affairs. Fortescue accurately states the situation of a century ago, and before then:
Quote
Theoretically the Patriarch can be deposed only for some very grave offence against the Church or State. As a matter of fact, perhaps the greatest abuse in the modern Orthodox Church is the incredible way in which the Patriarchs of Constantinople are changed. Sometimes the Sultan deposes them, but much more often it is the Orthodox themselves (always divided into endless parties), who petition for their removal. And the Porte grants their request—it gets a new fee for every new berat. Scarcely any Patriarch reigns as long as two years before he is deposed; and there are at this moment four ex-Patriarchs waiting in angry retirement till their parties get the upper hand again and they are re-elected.
http://books.google.com/books?id=UPr1ZCxPW6QC&pg=PA340&dq=%22get+the+upper+hand+again+and+they+are+re-elected%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0PsuUdLWO-qr2AXH04GADQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22get%20the%20upper%20hand%20again%20and%20they%20are%20re-elected%22&f=false
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2013, 10:47:05 AM »
(Reuters) - Pope Benedict, addressing cardinals on his final day in office, called on Thursday for the Roman Catholic Church to unite behind his successor and pledged his own "unconditional" obedience to the next pontiff.
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2013, 11:44:50 AM »
(Reuters) - Pope Benedict, addressing cardinals on his final day in office, called on Thursday for the Roman Catholic Church to unite behind his successor and pledged his own "unconditional" obedience to the next pontiff.

I think we should take him at his word.  But, no doubt, there will be those who choose not to and prefer to "stir the pot", so to speak, of discord and dissension.
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2013, 11:52:28 AM »
(Reuters) - Pope Benedict, addressing cardinals on his final day in office, called on Thursday for the Roman Catholic Church to unite behind his successor and pledged his own "unconditional" obedience to the next pontiff.

I think we should take him at his word.  But, no doubt, there will be those who choose not to and prefer to "stir the pot", so to speak, of discord and dissension.


Take Roman Pope at his word?!  IS OUTRAGE!  IS ALL GAME TO ITALIAN "BISHOP"!!
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2013, 11:55:24 AM »
(Reuters) - Pope Benedict, addressing cardinals on his final day in office, called on Thursday for the Roman Catholic Church to unite behind his successor and pledged his own "unconditional" obedience to the next pontiff.

I think we should take him at his word.  But, no doubt, there will be those who choose not to and prefer to "stir the pot", so to speak, of discord and dissension.


Take Roman Pope at his word?!  IS OUTRAGE!  IS ALL GAME TO ITALIAN "BISHOP"!!

Eef  Ortodox..., спросите священника.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 11:58:24 AM by J Michael »
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Ignatius II

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2013, 07:26:09 AM »
What problems would you be concerned about occurring? There is too much concern about something that is very unlikely to be an issue.

I can't imagine there being any problems.  Pope Benedict has basically indicated he wants to spend his time in prayer not being in charge of the Catholic church and no longer feels his has the strength or stamina to continue in his role. The new Pope may ask his advise or opinion on certain things.  That's no different than any Pope asking any number of Cardinals or staff for opinions.  When someone takes over a new job in the business world, it doesn't mean they never refer to staff or past position holders for advise. As a matter of fact, it's a good idea. It doesn't take anything away from their newly assumed authority.   

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2013, 07:34:57 AM »
If anyone's interested, I'm starting a society for people who believe that Benedict will continue to be pope until his death.

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

I find it difficult to estimate how much (or little) sense of humor exists on this forum; so just to be on the safe side I'll add that neither of those posts were meant seriously.

Good, I like the Ambrosian rite and couldn't figure why you would diss it.

OK, you got me there. :)

But seriously, I doubt that was what Fabio had in mind when he said "non-Romans".
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2013, 05:55:16 PM »

This is a rather recent state of affairs. Fortescue accurately states the situation of a century ago, and before then:
Quote
Theoretically the Patriarch can be deposed only for some very grave offence against the Church or State. As a matter of fact, perhaps the greatest abuse in the modern Orthodox Church is the incredible way in which the Patriarchs of Constantinople are changed. Sometimes the Sultan deposes them, but much more often it is the Orthodox themselves (always divided into endless parties), who petition for their removal. And the Porte grants their request—it gets a new fee for every new berat. Scarcely any Patriarch reigns as long as two years before he is deposed; and there are at this moment four ex-Patriarchs waiting in angry retirement till their parties get the upper hand again and they are re-elected.
http://books.google.com/books?id=UPr1ZCxPW6QC&pg=PA340&dq=%22get+the+upper+hand+again+and+they+are+re-elected%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0PsuUdLWO-qr2AXH04GADQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22get%20the%20upper%20hand%20again%20and%20they%20are%20re-elected%22&f=false

I love Fortescue's style of writing.
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Offline choy

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2013, 05:57:45 PM »
Maybe the two Popes will do the fusion dance and become a Super Pope.



Super Pope!  Even the Orthodox wouldn't be able to resist his infallibility and supremacy!

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2013, 04:51:14 AM »
Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism????
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2013, 10:23:38 AM »
Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism????

Offline Peter J

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2013, 12:30:09 PM »
Well, I think that

"When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians he defines with his supreme apostolic authority that a doctrine on faith and morals is to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised him in the person of St. Peter, he enjoys that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished to endow his Church in defining a doctrine on faith and morals."

may perhaps still be true of ... well, you know, the man we're talking about; but the thing is, it's a conditional statement, and I'm sure that he has no intention of issuing any statements satisfying the conditions.

Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism????
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2013, 12:32:32 PM »
Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism????

Indeed. Another sticky problem of "indelibility" ....  :P
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Offline Tony

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2013, 12:41:40 PM »
That decree proves the point my previous post. Per Catholic theology, Benedict can't make any such statements, since he can't exercise the charism of an office he resigned from.

By way of analogy, I used to be a supervisor in a unit at my company. I voluntarily stepped down, but still work for the same company. Now there is new a supervisor of the unit. I can't now go to the unit and tell the employees what to do, since I gave up any authority I had there when I decided to step down. The authority now resides with the current supervisor.

Well, I think that

"When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians he defines with his supreme apostolic authority that a doctrine on faith and morals is to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised him in the person of St. Peter, he enjoys that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished to endow his Church in defining a doctrine on faith and morals."

may perhaps still be true of ... well, you know, the man we're talking about; but the thing is, it's a conditional statement, and I'm sure that he has no intention of issuing any statements satisfying the conditions.

Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism????

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2013, 03:19:20 PM »
Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism????

Indeed. Another sticky problem of "indelibility" ....  :P

That, finally, is the point I was leading towards. I don't know that Catholic theology ever defined the problem. After all, the "charism" never "left" as flawed a Pope as Alexander the Sixth. The last pope who retired was reviled. Generally speaking, the "charism" of most sacramental acts is viewed as "indelible". I somehow think the ability of a man to "renounce" (not too strong of a term in my mind) something so "special" seems to create a problem within their theology behind the special nature of the Papal Office.

Above my pay grade, but interesting....

Offline Clemente

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2013, 03:29:13 PM »
But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

Are you really a sedevacantist? Since when?

Offline J Michael

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2013, 03:39:57 PM »
But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

Are you really a sedevacantist? Since when?

Since the Pope retired and the "sede" is "vacant".  Technically, all Catholics are, if you look at the term in the narrowest (or is it broadest?) possible interpretation.

But, as PeterJ feels its quite alright to bring up my history in this forum, you might want to ask him about his own meanderings within the Christian communion.  For all I know, he may really be a "sedevacantist" in the sense of those who are members of the SSPX. 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 03:43:04 PM by J Michael »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2013, 06:26:02 PM »
But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

Are you really a sedevacantist? Since when?

About 51 1/2 hours ago.

Since the Pope retired and the "sede" is "vacant".  Technically, all Catholics are, if you look at the term in the narrowest (or is it broadest?) possible interpretation.

But, as PeterJ feels its quite alright to bring up my history in this forum, you might want to ask him about his own meanderings within the Christian communion.  For all I know, he may really be a "sedevacantist" in the sense of those who are members of the SSPX. 

 ???

Is there a specific question you have in mind? And what does 'a "sedevacantist" in the sense of those who are members of the SSPX' mean?
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Offline akimel

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2013, 06:57:39 PM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2013, 08:48:01 PM »
But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

Are you really a sedevacantist? Since when?

About 51 1/2 hours ago.

Since the Pope retired and the "sede" is "vacant".  Technically, all Catholics are, if you look at the term in the narrowest (or is it broadest?) possible interpretation.

But, as PeterJ feels its quite alright to bring up my history in this forum, you might want to ask him about his own meanderings within the Christian communion.  For all I know, he may really be a "sedevacantist" in the sense of those who are members of the SSPX. 

 ???

1. Is there a specific question you have in mind?

2. And what does 'a "sedevacantist" in the sense of those who are members of the SSPX' mean?

1. Nope. 

2. I thought members of the SSPX *were* "sedevacantists" in the sense of not recognizing the legitimacy of the Pope since VII.  I don't really keep up with the goings-on of that part of the Catholic Church, so I could be dead wrong about that and won't hesitate to admit it if so.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2013, 09:34:14 PM »
???

1. Is there a specific question you have in mind?

1. Nope. 

You said:

But, as PeterJ feels its quite alright to bring up my history in this forum, you might want to ask him about his own meanderings within the Christian communion

Now, regarding the underlined part, I'm already somewhat used to the notion that some like myself should just mind-our-place on this forum and not think ourselves on the same level as other posters. (Case in point, it's common knowledge that you are ex-Orthodox as you announced it on the forum, yet you mockingly comment "PeterJ feels its quite alright to bring up my history in this forum".)

But regarding the italicized part, I would like an explanation of what "meanderings within the Christian communion" you're referring to.
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Offline montalban

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2013, 07:12:00 AM »
Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism????

So they could have just the 'office' of Peter, without a person in it?
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2013, 07:23:54 AM »
But regarding the italicized part, I would like an explanation of what "meanderings within the Christian communion" you're referring to.

P.S. Well, maybe I should have said "I would to see you try to explain it." :shrug::)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2013, 09:41:52 AM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  With all its "valid but illicit" stuff with its "indelible marks" all over the place, supercharism conveyed outside the sacramental system and lessers ordaining their superiors, and the non-consecrated holding an episcopal office, it is quite muddled.

Catholic theology is clear about this.  Which is why the Orthodox Church does not have a "munus" of a "supreme pontiff."
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 09:42:38 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2013, 10:00:46 AM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2013, 10:04:44 AM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2013, 02:23:52 PM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 02:24:42 PM by SolEX01 »

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2013, 02:28:37 PM »
Well, I think that

"When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians he defines with his supreme apostolic authority that a doctrine on faith and morals is to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised him in the person of St. Peter, he enjoys that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished to endow his Church in defining a doctrine on faith and morals."

may perhaps still be true of ... well, you know, the man we're talking about; but the thing is, it's a conditional statement, and I'm sure that he has no intention of issuing any statements satisfying the conditions.

Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism????

Thing is, the answer and resolution to all these questions and problems is in this statement in the parts in orange. It isn't the man, rather, the office. He is a retired Pope and Bishop of Rome, but no longer holds that office, so it will enver apply to him again.

Offline biro

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2013, 03:45:43 PM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2013, 04:01:17 PM »
Well, I think that

"When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians he defines with his supreme apostolic authority that a doctrine on faith and morals is to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised him in the person of St. Peter, he enjoys that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished to endow his Church in defining a doctrine on faith and morals."

may perhaps still be true of ... well, you know, the man we're talking about; but the thing is, it's a conditional statement, and I'm sure that he has no intention of issuing any statements satisfying the conditions.

Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism????

Thing is, the answer and resolution to all these questions and problems is in this statement in the parts in orange. It isn't the man, rather, the office. He is a retired Pope and Bishop of Rome, but no longer holds that office, so it will enver apply to him again.
never say never.  It wouldn't be the first time.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2013, 04:10:20 PM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.

Americans think religion (and the UK Monarchy) is make believe except for those who endured abuse from any religious figure. 

Offline biro

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2013, 04:17:21 PM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.

Americans think religion (and the UK Monarchy) is make believe except for those who endured abuse from any religious figure. 

Huh?
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Online podkarpatska

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2013, 04:21:13 PM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ



Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.

I thought the skit was forced and sophomoric. Poking fun at authority is ok with me but that was about as unfunny as it comes. Most late-night  comedy about the Papal resignation has fallen flat and was either childish or not funny. Colbert had a few good bits.

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2013, 04:24:05 PM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.

Americans think religion (and the UK Monarchy) is make believe except for those who endured abuse from any religious figure. 

Huh?

American elitists maybe....not most of us....

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2013, 04:34:49 PM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.

Americans think religion (and the UK Monarchy) is make believe except for those who endured abuse from any religious figure. 

Huh?

Sorry.   :-[

There are Americans who believe in a religion.
There are Americans who think religion is make believe (made up).
There are Americans who were abused by a religious figure and no longer believe in religion.

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2013, 06:10:06 PM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Does anyone think this skit is the least bit funny, even ignoring the irreverence?  I don't see anything whatsoever humorous about it.

This skit is to where Saturday Night Live has deteriorated; just be irreverent, and it will pass for humor.  I wonder if a similar skit about an Ayatollah would be run by the producers of SNL. 

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2013, 06:20:46 PM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Does anyone think this skit is the least bit funny, even ignoring the irreverence?  I don't see anything whatsoever humorous about it.

This skit is to where Saturday Night Live has deteriorated; just be irreverent, and it will pass for humor.  I wonder if a similar skit about an Ayatollah would be run by the producers of SNL. 
we all know the answer to that.

There was a day when Sinead O'Connor paid for her irreverence. Are those days gone forever?
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline montalban

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The law of the excluded middle.
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2013, 08:10:21 AM »
I think the Catholic faith requires people to believe two mutually exclusive things; that the Pope is just another bishop and, also that he's got special charism that no one else has.

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.

Offline Napoletani

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Re: The law of the excluded middle.
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2013, 08:20:28 AM »
I think the Catholic faith requires people to believe two mutually exclusive things; that the Pope is just another bishop and, also that he's got special charism that no one else has.



It is not as much his special charism that is a problem as the nature of his special charism, that is primacy vs vatican 1 definition of it.
Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
De te nasti aici si cresti,ramai Anti'Bucuresti

Offline Peter J

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2013, 08:26:26 AM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.

Not so. For one thing, you often twist the meaning of "the Vatican" to make it refer to the whole Catholic Church -- or should I say, the whole Roman Communion (which we consider the Catholic Church).
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Napoletani

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2013, 08:46:36 AM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.

Not so. For one thing, you often twist the meaning of "the Vatican" to make it refer to the whole Catholic Church -- or should I say, the whole Roman Communion (which we consider the Catholic Church).

Well this where Vatican I leads to.
Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
De te nasti aici si cresti,ramai Anti'Bucuresti

Offline Peter J

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2013, 10:11:27 AM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.

Not so. For one thing, you often twist the meaning of "the Vatican" to make it refer to the whole Catholic Church -- or should I say, the whole Roman Communion (which we consider the Catholic Church).

Well this where Vatican I leads to.

In a word, No.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Napoletani

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2013, 07:04:24 AM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.

Not so. For one thing, you often twist the meaning of "the Vatican" to make it refer to the whole Catholic Church -- or should I say, the whole Roman Communion (which we consider the Catholic Church).

Well this where Vatican I leads to.

In a word, No.

The Vatican falls, you whole church falls. So yes, as warned st Gregory the Great.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 07:04:46 AM by Napoletani »
Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
De te nasti aici si cresti,ramai Anti'Bucuresti

Offline Peter J

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Re: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2013, 08:22:23 AM »
A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.

Not so. For one thing, you often twist the meaning of "the Vatican" to make it refer to the whole Catholic Church -- or should I say, the whole Roman Communion (which we consider the Catholic Church).

Well this where Vatican I leads to.

In a word, No.

If my in-a-word answer wasn't sufficient (imagine that :D) then here's a longer answer: saying that Vatican I leads to calling the whole Roman Communion (i.e. the Catholic Church) "the Vatican" is plainly false. I'm a member of the Roman Communion, but I'm not part of the Vatican. (Actually, I haven't been in the Vatican since the 90s.)
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)