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Author Topic: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?  (Read 2680 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 26, 2013, 03:41:11 PM »

If this is true, is the Roman defense of both primacy and infallibility made problematic?

"The church believes that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger transmutated into Benedict XVI in 2005. By personally choosing to retain the official title “Your Holiness Benedict XVI,” the pope apparently believed there was no going back."  and this: "On Monday afternoon, a day before the Vatican unveiled the title emeritus pope, Archbishop Pier Luigi Celata, the No. 2 official overseeing the church during the interregnum between the pope’s last day and the election of a new pontiff, made the case against calling Benedict just that. “An emeritus bishop reserves some rights,” Celata said, ”He still has a connection to the office.”  " http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/departing-pope-benedicts-daily-activities-shrouded-in-mystery/2013/02/26/99b7d314-801c-11e2-b99e-6baf4ebe42df_story.html....

This would be consistent with Prof. George E. Demacopoulos' article of February 18th. Unfortunately, this link is dead.  http://pennpress.typepad.com/pennpresslog/2013/02/benedict-and-st-peter-a-post-by-george-e-demacopoulos.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PennPressLog+%28Penn+Press+Log%29
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 03:47:43 PM »

If this is true, is the Roman defense of both primacy and infallibility made problematic?

"The church believes that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger transmutated into Benedict XVI in 2005. By personally choosing to retain the official title “Your Holiness Benedict XVI,” the pope apparently believed there was no going back."  and this: "On Monday afternoon, a day before the Vatican unveiled the title emeritus pope, Archbishop Pier Luigi Celata, the No. 2 official overseeing the church during the interregnum between the pope’s last day and the election of a new pontiff, made the case against calling Benedict just that. “An emeritus bishop reserves some rights,” Celata said, ”He still has a connection to the office.”  " http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/departing-pope-benedicts-daily-activities-shrouded-in-mystery/2013/02/26/99b7d314-801c-11e2-b99e-6baf4ebe42df_story.html....

This would be consistent with Prof. George E. Demacopoulos' article of February 18th. Unfortunately, this link is dead.  http://pennpress.typepad.com/pennpresslog/2013/02/benedict-and-st-peter-a-post-by-george-e-demacopoulos.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PennPressLog+%28Penn+Press+Log%29
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 03:48:34 PM »

Some would say it already is problematic.
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 06:18:55 PM »

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 06:24:53 PM »

He will still be a pope? I thought it stops after he retires from the office of bishop of Rom
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2013, 06:27:33 PM »

He will still be a pope? I thought it stops after he retires from the office of bishop of Rom

This is what I've been hearing from Catholic theologians and commentators as well. It's a grace given to the individual office holder, and by renouncing the office he loses the graces (i.e. infallibility, etc.).
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 07:29:47 PM »

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?
Is Cardinal Martini still in the running this conclave?
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2013, 07:40:50 PM »

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?
Is Cardinal Martini still in the running this conclave?

If it's Carlo Maria Martini you mean, he's dead.
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2013, 07:45:46 PM »

There is Donald Cardinal Weurl, Archbishop of Washington. There is also Theodore Cardinal McCarrick, Emetrius Archbishop of Washington. Both might have the title of Archbishop of Washington, but, only one(Cardinal Weurl) can excerise the office of Archbishop of Washington, I'm sure that this will be the case with the pope as well
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2013, 08:29:23 PM »

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?
Is Cardinal Martini still in the running this conclave?

If it's Carlo Maria Martini you mean, he's dead.
I'll take that as a no, although that is necessarily so in Chicago and Missouri.
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2013, 08:51:59 PM »

Unnecessary concern, in my opinion.  The Roman Catholic Church has plenty of precedents for retired hierarchs who have the discretion to remove themselves from public ecclesial pronouncements and participate in limited activities, only with their superior hierarch's authorization.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, we likewise have not only hierarchs, but primates, including Ecumenical Patriarchs, who have stepped aside as "Former Patriarch of ____," who do not involve themselves in public critique of ecclesial affairs. (Patriarch Athenagoras' predecessor lived many years into Patriarch Athenagoras' tenure--he passed from this life 6 months before his successor, and only a few knew of his activities, in his private life, except for the seminarians at the Halki Theological School, for whom he was a counsellor, with his successor's authorization.)

The potential exists for a disruptive retired hierarch, but the superior hierarch would have the means to silence such a disobedient hierarch.  And Pope Benedict has demonstrated his character of humility and respect for church authority.

As for the matter of the "infallibility," a Pope is infallible when he speaks "Ex-Cathedra," "From the Throne;" a retired pontiff would not have such an ability.
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2013, 10:21:45 PM »

Unnecessary concern, in my opinion.  The Roman Catholic Church has plenty of precedents for retired hierarchs who have the discretion to remove themselves from public ecclesial pronouncements and participate in limited activities, only with their superior hierarch's authorization.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, we likewise have not only hierarchs, but primates, including Ecumenical Patriarchs, who have stepped aside as "Former Patriarch of ____," who do not involve themselves in public critique of ecclesial affairs. (Patriarch Athenagoras' predecessor lived many years into Patriarch Athenagoras' tenure--he passed from this life 6 months before his successor, and only a few knew of his activities, in his private life, except for the seminarians at the Halki Theological School, for whom he was a counsellor, with his successor's authorization.)

The potential exists for a disruptive retired hierarch, but the superior hierarch would have the means to silence such a disobedient hierarch.  And Pope Benedict has demonstrated his character of humility and respect for church authority.

As for the matter of the "infallibility," a Pope is infallible when he speaks "Ex-Cathedra," "From the Throne;" a retired pontiff would not have such an ability.
Not that it is important with the particular person involved, but with a retired "supreme pontiff" we are dealing with a whole different animal than retired patriarchs (who can be troublesome enough: not all have been so quiet as the example you give), and there have been ones who retired and then changed their minds.
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2013, 11:38:39 PM »

I don't believe any problem would arise from Pope Benedict XVI. If the new Pope, though, proves to be excessively liberal, then Benedict XVI would probably make some remark. But I don't believe Rome would go the Anglican/Episcopal way of taking outright scandalous decisions. A liberal pope could further the liturgical problems in Rome, dillute it even more into bad ecumenism (and some from our own side would jump right into it), or, God forbid, give renewed strength to the Marxist Theology of Liberation. Now, this "moderate" liberalism would be worse than the explicit one because many people would not notice what is going on. But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans, meaning not cessation of dialogue, but starting dialogue from what matters, acknowledging differences. Actually, I'd have one that is a real traditionalist of Western Catholicism, to the point he would recognize that infallibility and universal jurisdiction were never part of the tradition of the Western Church, but I digress. Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 10:15:24 AM »

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

That's not the question. I think that the issue goes to some of the theology, or at least defensive apologetics, used by the Roman Catholic Church to explain and/or justify her teachings one the "unique Petrine ministry" of the Papacy. If the unique attributes of the office can be viewed by the Church as being so attached to a pope during his reign short of deposition for cause, even one as troubling as and historically amoral as Alexander Sixtus, how can a "resignation" void the special "attributes" vested in a man by the ascension to the Papal Office?  

Pope Benedict is by all appearances a pious and sincere priest and bishop. He isn't the issue . It goes to the "dogmatic" uniqueness of the office itself.
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 10:53:55 AM »

He will still be a pope? I thought it stops after he retires from the office of bishop of Rom

Once His Holiness retires his ring will be destroyed, to prevent any false documents to be released.  This is always done when a pope dies.  He will also still wear white, but not retain the white cape and the red shoes are gone too.

Here's a link to an article on what I've said:
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/26/17100856-pope-to-wear-white-but-no-red-shoes-after-abdication?lite
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2013, 11:20:16 AM »

Unnecessary concern, in my opinion.  The Roman Catholic Church has plenty of precedents for retired hierarchs who have the discretion to remove themselves from public ecclesial pronouncements and participate in limited activities, only with their superior hierarch's authorization.

Hasn't there only been one previous Pope who "retired"?  Pope Celestine V.

....and wasn't he captured, imprisoned and died (some say executed) 10 months later, by the new  Pope Boniface VIII?

I heard in a report, that the new Pope, and others, were extremely worried about two Popes being alive at the same time....so, the old one was dealt with...even though all he wanted was to go back and live as a monastic.

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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2013, 11:24:17 AM »

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.
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« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2013, 12:58:00 PM »

The situation certainly won't be as bad as the Great Western Schism when there were two (and later three) active bishops claiming to be pope and recognized as such by various segments of the church.  But the precedents that Pope Benedict XVI sets during his retirement will certainly be important, since some of his successors may elect to follow in his footsteps and voluntarily relinquish the papacy.  In other words, having a retired pope could become a recurring feature of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2013, 01:11:34 PM »

Hasn't there only been one previous Pope who "retired"?  Pope Celestine V.

....and wasn't he captured, imprisoned and died (some say executed) 10 months later, by the new  Pope Boniface VIII?

I heard in a report, that the new Pope, and others, were extremely worried about two Popes being alive at the same time....so, the old one was dealt with...even though all he wanted was to go back and live as a monastic.

Celestine V, according to Wikipedia, seems to have fully voluntarily resigned in order to return to his "pre-papal" life. The following pope feared his being instated as an antipope. So it was more of a matter of fearing a possible antipope rather than the retired Celestine V actually having authority or power as a pope.
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« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2013, 01:17:20 PM »


Yes, so, what's to stop that situation from repeating with the future RC Pope and retired Pope Benedict?
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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013, 01:18:45 PM »

He will still be a pope? I thought it stops after he retires from the office of bishop of Rom

Once His Holiness retires his ring will be destroyed, to prevent any false documents to be released.

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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2013, 02:17:30 PM »

Yes, so, what's to stop that situation from repeating with the future RC Pope and retired Pope Benedict?

What's to stop anyone from electing an antipope at any other time?
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 03:21:49 PM »

Yes, so, what's to stop that situation from repeating with the future RC Pope and retired Pope Benedict?

What's to stop anyone from electing an antipope at any other time?

Well there is that Pope Michael.
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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2013, 06:50:39 PM »

Some would say it already is problematic.

I honestly don't see a problem with a retired pope.  Im pretty sure Pope Benedict will keep to himself and practice humility even IF he feels that the new Pope may be taking his church in a questionable direction.  I cant believe however that they would not meet from time to time and swap stories swap opinions or whatever.  No, right now I don't see a problem, this doesn't mean there wont be any but from where I sit things will go smoothly........
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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2013, 07:48:25 PM »


Yes, so, what's to stop that situation from repeating with the future RC Pope and retired Pope Benedict?

Sorry to be blunt but Pope Benedict XVI may not have long to live. I am not trying to be mean. I don't imagine he'll be taking on any super-draining and stressful things from now on. Just my opinion, though.
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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2013, 09:58:05 PM »

If anyone's interested, I'm starting a society for people who believe that Benedict will continue to be pope until his death.
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2013, 10:22:43 PM »

Why the fuss? It would be no different to what happens with retired senior military officers. The continued use of their former title, at least in face-to-face contact, is a proper courtesy recognizing their past service.
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2013, 10:38:20 PM »

Why the fuss? It would be no different to what happens with retired senior military officers. The continued use of their former title, at least in face-to-face contact, is a proper courtesy recognizing their past service.

I think that's a good way to say it.
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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2013, 11:26:03 PM »

Why the fuss? It would be no different to what happens with retired senior military officers. The continued use of their former title, at least in face-to-face contact, is a proper courtesy recognizing their past service.
Not exactly: a retired general doesn't pose the same problem that a abdicated monarch does.
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« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2013, 11:32:15 PM »

If anyone's interested, I'm starting a society for people who believe that Benedict will continue to be pope until his death.

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

I find it difficult to estimate how much (or little) sense of humor exists on this forum; so just to be on the safe side I'll add that neither of those posts were meant seriously.
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« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2013, 11:33:27 PM »

Not exactly: a retired general doesn't pose the same problem that a abdicated monarch does.

Except there is no problem unless he sets himself up as an antipope or whatever, no different than any other hierarch being set up as an antipope and claiming the office of the Bishop of Rome.
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« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2013, 11:35:06 PM »

If anyone's interested, I'm starting a society for people who believe that Benedict will continue to be pope until his death.

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

I find it difficult to estimate how much (or little) sense of humor exists on this forum; so just to be on the safe side I'll add that neither of those posts were meant seriously.

Good, I like the Ambrosian rite and couldn't figure why you would diss it.
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« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2013, 02:28:07 AM »

Not exactly: a retired general doesn't pose the same problem that a abdicated monarch does.

Except there is no problem unless he sets himself up as an antipope or whatever, no different than any other hierarch being set up as an antipope and claiming the office of the Bishop of Rome.
Except that no one can challenge his legitimacy.  It has happened before.
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« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2013, 02:37:39 AM »

Unnecessary concern, in my opinion.  The Roman Catholic Church has plenty of precedents for retired hierarchs who have the discretion to remove themselves from public ecclesial pronouncements and participate in limited activities, only with their superior hierarch's authorization.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, we likewise have not only hierarchs, but primates, including Ecumenical Patriarchs, who have stepped aside as "Former Patriarch of ____," who do not involve themselves in public critique of ecclesial affairs. (Patriarch Athenagoras' predecessor lived many years into Patriarch Athenagoras' tenure--he passed from this life 6 months before his successor, and only a few knew of his activities, in his private life, except for the seminarians at the Halki Theological School, for whom he was a counsellor, with his successor's authorization.)

The potential exists for a disruptive retired hierarch, but the superior hierarch would have the means to silence such a disobedient hierarch.  And Pope Benedict has demonstrated his character of humility and respect for church authority.

As for the matter of the "infallibility," a Pope is infallible when he speaks "Ex-Cathedra," "From the Throne;" a retired pontiff would not have such an ability.
This is a rather recent state of affairs. Fortescue accurately states the situation of a century ago, and before then:
Quote
Theoretically the Patriarch can be deposed only for some very grave offence against the Church or State. As a matter of fact, perhaps the greatest abuse in the modern Orthodox Church is the incredible way in which the Patriarchs of Constantinople are changed. Sometimes the Sultan deposes them, but much more often it is the Orthodox themselves (always divided into endless parties), who petition for their removal. And the Porte grants their request—it gets a new fee for every new berat. Scarcely any Patriarch reigns as long as two years before he is deposed; and there are at this moment four ex-Patriarchs waiting in angry retirement till their parties get the upper hand again and they are re-elected.
http://books.google.com/books?id=UPr1ZCxPW6QC&pg=PA340&dq=%22get+the+upper+hand+again+and+they+are+re-elected%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0PsuUdLWO-qr2AXH04GADQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22get%20the%20upper%20hand%20again%20and%20they%20are%20re-elected%22&f=false
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« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2013, 10:47:05 AM »

(Reuters) - Pope Benedict, addressing cardinals on his final day in office, called on Thursday for the Roman Catholic Church to unite behind his successor and pledged his own "unconditional" obedience to the next pontiff.
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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2013, 11:44:50 AM »

(Reuters) - Pope Benedict, addressing cardinals on his final day in office, called on Thursday for the Roman Catholic Church to unite behind his successor and pledged his own "unconditional" obedience to the next pontiff.

I think we should take him at his word.  But, no doubt, there will be those who choose not to and prefer to "stir the pot", so to speak, of discord and dissension.
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« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2013, 11:52:28 AM »

(Reuters) - Pope Benedict, addressing cardinals on his final day in office, called on Thursday for the Roman Catholic Church to unite behind his successor and pledged his own "unconditional" obedience to the next pontiff.

I think we should take him at his word.  But, no doubt, there will be those who choose not to and prefer to "stir the pot", so to speak, of discord and dissension.


Take Roman Pope at his word?!  IS OUTRAGE!  IS ALL GAME TO ITALIAN "BISHOP"!!
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« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2013, 11:55:24 AM »

(Reuters) - Pope Benedict, addressing cardinals on his final day in office, called on Thursday for the Roman Catholic Church to unite behind his successor and pledged his own "unconditional" obedience to the next pontiff.

I think we should take him at his word.  But, no doubt, there will be those who choose not to and prefer to "stir the pot", so to speak, of discord and dissension.


Take Roman Pope at his word?!  IS OUTRAGE!  IS ALL GAME TO ITALIAN "BISHOP"!!

Eef  Ortodox..., спросите священника.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 11:58:24 AM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2013, 07:26:09 AM »

What problems would you be concerned about occurring? There is too much concern about something that is very unlikely to be an issue.

I can't imagine there being any problems.  Pope Benedict has basically indicated he wants to spend his time in prayer not being in charge of the Catholic church and no longer feels his has the strength or stamina to continue in his role. The new Pope may ask his advise or opinion on certain things.  That's no different than any Pope asking any number of Cardinals or staff for opinions.  When someone takes over a new job in the business world, it doesn't mean they never refer to staff or past position holders for advise. As a matter of fact, it's a good idea. It doesn't take anything away from their newly assumed authority.   
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« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2013, 07:34:57 AM »

If anyone's interested, I'm starting a society for people who believe that Benedict will continue to be pope until his death.

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

I find it difficult to estimate how much (or little) sense of humor exists on this forum; so just to be on the safe side I'll add that neither of those posts were meant seriously.

Good, I like the Ambrosian rite and couldn't figure why you would diss it.

OK, you got me there. Smiley

But seriously, I doubt that was what Fabio had in mind when he said "non-Romans".
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« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2013, 05:55:16 PM »


This is a rather recent state of affairs. Fortescue accurately states the situation of a century ago, and before then:
Quote
Theoretically the Patriarch can be deposed only for some very grave offence against the Church or State. As a matter of fact, perhaps the greatest abuse in the modern Orthodox Church is the incredible way in which the Patriarchs of Constantinople are changed. Sometimes the Sultan deposes them, but much more often it is the Orthodox themselves (always divided into endless parties), who petition for their removal. And the Porte grants their request—it gets a new fee for every new berat. Scarcely any Patriarch reigns as long as two years before he is deposed; and there are at this moment four ex-Patriarchs waiting in angry retirement till their parties get the upper hand again and they are re-elected.
http://books.google.com/books?id=UPr1ZCxPW6QC&pg=PA340&dq=%22get+the+upper+hand+again+and+they+are+re-elected%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0PsuUdLWO-qr2AXH04GADQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22get%20the%20upper%20hand%20again%20and%20they%20are%20re-elected%22&f=false

I love Fortescue's style of writing.
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« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2013, 05:57:45 PM »

Maybe the two Popes will do the fusion dance and become a Super Pope.



Super Pope!  Even the Orthodox wouldn't be able to resist his infallibility and supremacy!
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« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2013, 04:51:14 AM »

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism?Huh
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« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2013, 10:23:38 AM »

Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism?Huh
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« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2013, 12:30:09 PM »

Well, I think that

"When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians he defines with his supreme apostolic authority that a doctrine on faith and morals is to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised him in the person of St. Peter, he enjoys that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished to endow his Church in defining a doctrine on faith and morals."

may perhaps still be true of ... well, you know, the man we're talking about; but the thing is, it's a conditional statement, and I'm sure that he has no intention of issuing any statements satisfying the conditions.

Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism?Huh
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