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Cyrillic
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« on: February 25, 2013, 12:35:18 PM »

A friend of mine professes herself to be a Christian and, admittedly, she's doing it a lot better than me. However, she told me she hasn't been baptised. I could barely prevent myself from saying "whoever is not baptised isn't a Christian either". Is this true, though? Can unbaptised people call themselves Christian? What makes one a Christian?
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2013, 01:21:11 PM »

A person can call themselves anything they want. (In the future, please address me as "Your Most Serene Highness"). It might be worthwhile to ask why she has not been baptized (quote the eunuch, maybe? "Here is water...")
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2013, 02:27:39 PM »

i met someone recently who 'loves Jesus a lot'.
she is hindu.

so i think it's best just to get to know people whatever they believe (or say they believe) and gradually share with them the Christian faith as we find it in the orthodox church.
i think getting to know people's real beliefs takes time, so it doesn't really matter what they label themselves, if we are willing to walk with them and share with them.
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2013, 02:58:30 PM »

A friend of mine professes herself to be a Christian and, admittedly, she's doing it a lot better than me. However, she told me she hasn't been baptised. I could barely prevent myself from saying "whoever is not baptised isn't a Christian either". Is this true, though? Can unbaptised people call themselves Christian? What makes one a Christian?

IMO strictly speaking and by Orthodox standards only baptized and Catechumens are Christians. However since Orthodoxy doesn't have patent for English language we can't define who is and who isn't a Christian in colloquial talk.
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2013, 04:33:45 PM »

A friend of mine professes herself to be a Christian and, admittedly, she's doing it a lot better than me. However, she told me she hasn't been baptised. I could barely prevent myself from saying "whoever is not baptised isn't a Christian either". Is this true, though? Can unbaptised people call themselves Christian? What makes one a Christian?
It's somewhat like calling yourself "married" even though there has never been a wedding.
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2013, 11:25:37 PM »

Maybe one day she will be baptized in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2013, 11:38:41 PM »

To have the Holy Spirit indwelling, which comes before baptism (otherwise, no one would seek to be baptized, because the urge to be purified is not our own doing).

Acts 10:44 - 48
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


Who would dare to say they were not Christians?
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2013, 11:53:41 PM »

To have the Holy Spirit indwelling, which comes before baptism (otherwise, no one would seek to be baptized, because the urge to be purified is not our own doing).

Acts 10:44 - 48
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


Who would dare to say they were not Christians?

Amen.  One of my favorite passages.
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2013, 02:17:13 PM »

To have the Holy Spirit indwelling, which comes before baptism (otherwise, no one would seek to be baptized, because the urge to be purified is not our own doing).

Acts 10:44 - 48
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


Who would dare to say they were not Christians?
But is the title "Christian" a title bestowed on us by God or by man?
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2013, 02:34:41 PM »

Who would dare to say they were not Christians?

o/

They needed to be baptized in order to become Christians.
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2013, 02:55:38 PM »

Who would dare to say they were not Christians?

o/

They needed to be baptized in order to become Christians.

They had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, how could they not already be Christians? It honestly seems like sacrilege to say so.
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2013, 02:58:14 PM »

To have the Holy Spirit indwelling, which comes before baptism (otherwise, no one would seek to be baptized, because the urge to be purified is not our own doing).

Acts 10:44 - 48
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


Who would dare to say they were not Christians?
But is the title "Christian" a title bestowed on us by God or by man?

Not sure what it has to do with, but they were first called Christians in Antioch so it is a thing of man.
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2013, 03:02:09 PM »

I honestly don't like discussing what it takes to "be a Christian", since the word "be" is a static verb that doesn't imply any action whatsoever. I much prefer to speak in terms of action verbs, such as in the question of what it takes to "follow Christ". To follow Christ is to obey His commandments. Can anyone truly say they're following Christ if, given the opportunity, they're not yet baptized according to the apostolic command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2013, 03:03:50 PM »

To have the Holy Spirit indwelling, which comes before baptism (otherwise, no one would seek to be baptized, because the urge to be purified is not our own doing).

Acts 10:44 - 48
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


Who would dare to say they were not Christians?
But is the title "Christian" a title bestowed on us by God or by man?

Not sure what it has to do with, but they were first called Christians in Antioch so it is a thing of man.
So is it not then the authority of man that decides what can or cannot be called Christian?
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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2013, 03:04:08 PM »

Who would dare to say they were not Christians?

o/

They needed to be baptized in order to become Christians.

They had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, how could they not already be Christians?

Apparently Holy Spirit can dwell in people in many different ways. Otherwise baptism would have been completely useless for them. To me that sounds like a sacrilege.
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013, 03:07:17 PM »

I honestly don't like discussing what it takes to "be a Christian", since the word "be" is a static verb that doesn't imply any action whatsoever. I much prefer to speak in terms of action verbs, such as in the question of what it takes to "follow Christ". To follow Christ is to obey His commandments. Can anyone truly say they're following Christ if, given the opportunity, they're not yet baptized according to the apostolic command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

And who can say someone has had the opportunity or not? There is much that goes into that (discovering which body claiming to be the Church is really the church just the beginning). And then, it (usually) is not that simple as saying "I want to be baptized, baptize me."
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 03:11:55 PM »

To have the Holy Spirit indwelling, which comes before baptism (otherwise, no one would seek to be baptized, because the urge to be purified is not our own doing).

Acts 10:44 - 48
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


Who would dare to say they were not Christians?
But is the title "Christian" a title bestowed on us by God or by man?

Not sure what it has to do with, but they were first called Christians in Antioch so it is a thing of man.
So is it not then the authority of man that decides what can or cannot be called Christian?

Not now that it already has a meaning.
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2013, 03:41:31 PM »

To have the Holy Spirit indwelling, which comes before baptism (otherwise, no one would seek to be baptized, because the urge to be purified is not our own doing).

Acts 10:44 - 48
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


Who would dare to say they were not Christians?
But is the title "Christian" a title bestowed on us by God or by man?

Not sure what it has to do with, but they were first called Christians in Antioch so it is a thing of man.
So is it not then the authority of man that decides what can or cannot be called Christian?

Not now that it already has a meaning.
Does it really have a meaning, considering that we can't even agree on this thread what "Christian" means?
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 03:43:26 PM »

Quote
What makes one a Christian?


A follower of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2013, 10:13:58 AM »

I do not avoid the consideration, yet, dare not attempt to define ‘what is a Christian’ pertaining to others. I think I am best served to focus on my own repentance and allow God to define it in my own heart pertaining to myself. I should speak my understanding of the Truth and pray God reveals Himself to others in His way for their heart to accept and understand. Thy will be done and Lord knows I cannot always discern what or how that goes down for myself much less others.

With that said I do believe in Baptism and Baptismal regeneration (though perhaps not to the fullness of an Orthodox? IDK yet) though constantly find myself reminded of the thief on the cross. In the end is it not God that defines this as it is God that instills His Spirit in our hearts?

I have and do profit from the following definition though of ‘an altogether Christian’. I presume as this is the ‘Orthodox-Other’ board it is permissible to post from a non Orthodox source. If that is improper to anyone please allow me to apologize in advance. The quote is from a John Wesley sermon ‘The Almost Christian’ and to my limited knowledge I don’t think it conflicts with Orthodoxy to any great length. I would be grateful to know if it did.

Yea, our Lord himself declares, "He that believeth in the Son hath everlasting life; and cometh not into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life."

But here let no man deceive his own soul. "It is diligently to be noted, the faith which bringeth not forth repentance, and love, and all good works, is not that right living faith, but a dead and devilish one. For, even the devils believe that Christ was born of a virgin: that he wrought all kinds of miracles, declaring himself very God: that, for our sakes, he suffered a most painful death, to redeem us from death everlasting; that he rose again the third day: that he ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father and at the end of the world shall come again to judge both the quick and dead. These articles of our faith the devils believe, and so they believe all that is written in the Old and New Testament. And yet for all this faith, they be but devils. They remain still in their damnable estate lacking the very true Christian faith."

"The right and true Christian faith is not only to believe that Holy Scripture and the Articles of our Faith are true, but also to have a sure trust and confidence to be saved from everlasting damnation by Christ. It is a sure trust and confidence which a man hath in God, that, by the merits of Christ, his sins are forgiven, and he reconciled to the favour of God; whereof doth follow a loving heart, to obey his commandments."


Peace & Grace
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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013, 11:14:14 AM »

A person can call themselves anything they want. (In the future, please address me as "Your Most Serene Highness"). It might be worthwhile to ask why she has not been baptized (quote the eunuch, maybe? "Here is water...")

Are you suggesting that I should baptise her myself?  Huh
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2013, 11:19:20 AM »

A friend of mine professes herself to be a Christian and, admittedly, she's doing it a lot better than me. However, she told me she hasn't been baptised. I could barely prevent myself from saying "whoever is not baptised isn't a Christian either". Is this true, though? Can unbaptised people call themselves Christian? What makes one a Christian?

Is she simply unbaptised, or is she unwilling to be baptised? I think that the difference is crucial. I have no trouble imagining a Christian who has not yet been baptised, but I think a refusal to be baptised would be tantamount to an admission that one is not Christian at all. If she never intends to be baptised at all then I think your initial reaction was not far off the mark.

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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 01:01:49 PM »

Quote
What makes one a Christian?


A follower of Jesus Christ.

Which Jesus there's 10's of thousands of the floating around  Huh
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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2013, 01:05:29 PM »

A person can call themselves anything they want. (In the future, please address me as "Your Most Serene Highness"). It might be worthwhile to ask why she has not been baptized (quote the eunuch, maybe? "Here is water...")

Are you suggesting that I should baptise her myself?  Huh

I can only speak from childhood experiences playing church. Dogs will often let you baptize them, without a problem. Cats and neighbor children tend to fight it.  Wink
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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2013, 05:15:22 PM »

A person can call themselves anything they want. (In the future, please address me as "Your Most Serene Highness"). It might be worthwhile to ask why she has not been baptized (quote the eunuch, maybe? "Here is water...")

Are you suggesting that I should baptise her myself?  Huh

I can only speak from childhood experiences playing church. Dogs will often let you baptize them, without a problem. Cats and neighbor children tend to fight it.  Wink

 Cheesy ha ha!

cyrillic,
i don't think they are suggesting u should baptise her yourself. i think u should just get to know her and gently share your faith as you are able and then take it from there.
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2013, 05:23:21 PM »

I think I know her. She's one of my best friends  Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2013, 05:24:07 PM »

that's great, yr half way there, just encourage her in her spiritual journey towards deeper things.
may God bless u and guide u
 Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2013, 05:27:13 PM »

That emotional high you feel when you see a "Jesus loves you!" sticker on the back of a car, or you hear a song that really speaks to you on K-Love and you stop and cry for ten minutes. So then you call a weird 1-800 number and say the "sinner's prayer" which is probably no older than 20-50 years, and then start telling everyone that you are "saved."
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« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2013, 01:58:22 AM »

That emotional high you feel when you see a "Jesus loves you!" sticker on the back of a car, or you hear a song that really speaks to you on K-Love and you stop and cry for ten minutes. So then you call a weird 1-800 number and say the "sinner's prayer" which is probably no older than 20-50 years, and then start telling everyone that you are "saved."

I completely understand where you're coming from, but I wouldn't dismiss such experiences completely. Everything has to start somewhere, even if the journey begins in foolishness, it can still be a step in the right direction. I'm sure there are Orthodox priests out there somewhere who began their journey toward God in just such a way.  Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2013, 04:51:40 AM »

Before my own baptism I still considered myself Christian. How could I not? Only that I had yet to tkae part in the faith and grow in it. So Maybe there is a distinction to be made between those who have fullness of Christianity, and those who do not.
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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2013, 05:20:15 PM »

I honestly don't like discussing what it takes to "be a Christian", since the word "be" is a static verb that doesn't imply any action whatsoever. I much prefer to speak in terms of action verbs, such as in the question of what it takes to "follow Christ". To follow Christ is to obey His commandments. Can anyone truly say they're following Christ if, given the opportunity, they're not yet baptized according to the apostolic command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems that you are confusing "Christian" with "Salvation", which is a process as you describe.  I don't think that all Christians will be Saved.
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« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2013, 05:32:55 PM »

Through Bible Ministry?...Learn how to be a Christian  Wink
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« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2013, 05:36:46 PM »

A friend of mine professes herself to be a Christian and, admittedly, she's doing it a lot better than me. However, she told me she hasn't been baptised. I could barely prevent myself from saying "whoever is not baptised isn't a Christian either". Is this true, though? Can unbaptised people call themselves Christian? What makes one a Christian?

You must be baptized. There are rare exception but this doesn't sound like one of them.
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« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2013, 06:10:19 AM »

Is it permissable to debate the necessity of baptism here?
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« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2013, 06:53:15 AM »

I honestly don't like discussing what it takes to "be a Christian", since the word "be" is a static verb that doesn't imply any action whatsoever. I much prefer to speak in terms of action verbs, such as in the question of what it takes to "follow Christ". To follow Christ is to obey His commandments. Can anyone truly say they're following Christ if, given the opportunity, they're not yet baptized according to the apostolic command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems that you are confusing "Christian" with "Salvation", which is a process as you describe.  I don't think that all Christians will be Saved.

Hmm, I never considered this possibility in the strictest sense.

Can a person be a Christian and yet not even be remotely be headed toward Salvation?  I suppose it is possible if a person is living according to the teachings of the Church, Scriptures and Jesus in a legalistic way rather than through faith, such as the rich young ruler, could be considered a Christian in the same manner a person would be considered a Buddhist.  However, I personally would not consider such a person a Christian in the way I understand a true Christian, but it certainly a possible way to look at it.
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« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2013, 06:59:23 AM »

Is it permissable to debate the necessity of baptism here?

Yes. It's in the Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion forum.
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« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2013, 07:17:15 AM »

Quote
What makes one a Christian?


A follower of Jesus Christ.

Which Jesus there's 10's of thousands of the floating around  Huh
The one that says blessed are the consumers, for their material reward on earth is great. I tell you the truth, bless yourself with a private jet, mansion and diamonds, for you have done that to me.

But Benny Hinn forgot to say he got crucified by credit card debt.
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« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2013, 09:40:44 AM »

Is it permissable to debate the necessity of baptism here?

Yes. It's in the Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion forum.

Thank you! I am making sure from now on so I receive no more warnings.
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« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2013, 11:54:27 AM »

I honestly don't like discussing what it takes to "be a Christian", since the word "be" is a static verb that doesn't imply any action whatsoever. I much prefer to speak in terms of action verbs, such as in the question of what it takes to "follow Christ". To follow Christ is to obey His commandments. Can anyone truly say they're following Christ if, given the opportunity, they're not yet baptized according to the apostolic command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems that you are confusing "Christian" with "Salvation", which is a process as you describe.  I don't think that all Christians will be Saved.

Hmm, I never considered this possibility in the strictest sense.

Can a person be a Christian and yet not even be remotely be headed toward Salvation?  I suppose it is possible if a person is living according to the teachings of the Church, Scriptures and Jesus in a legalistic way rather than through faith, such as the rich young ruler, could be considered a Christian in the same manner a person would be considered a Buddhist.  However, I personally would not consider such a person a Christian in the way I understand a true Christian, but it certainly a possible way to look at it.


Who is a Christian is determined by man.  Who is Saved is determined by God.  The writings of the Fathers contain stories of Bishops in Hell.  I bet most people thought they were Christian.  I also wonder how many people seeking God in remote parts of the world find Him the same way that Paul did.  There is no Salvation without Christ.  But really, how many of the World's "Christians" know anything about Him?
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« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2013, 11:55:32 AM »

I honestly don't like discussing what it takes to "be a Christian", since the word "be" is a static verb that doesn't imply any action whatsoever. I much prefer to speak in terms of action verbs, such as in the question of what it takes to "follow Christ". To follow Christ is to obey His commandments. Can anyone truly say they're following Christ if, given the opportunity, they're not yet baptized according to the apostolic command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems that you are confusing "Christian" with "Salvation", which is a process as you describe.  I don't think that all Christians will be Saved.
No, I'm not confusing "Christian" with "Salvation". In truth, I'm making a difference between the two. Not all Christians will be saved, but one must follow Christ to be saved.
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« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2013, 08:09:58 AM »

I honestly don't like discussing what it takes to "be a Christian", since the word "be" is a static verb that doesn't imply any action whatsoever. I much prefer to speak in terms of action verbs, such as in the question of what it takes to "follow Christ". To follow Christ is to obey His commandments. Can anyone truly say they're following Christ if, given the opportunity, they're not yet baptized according to the apostolic command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems that you are confusing "Christian" with "Salvation", which is a process as you describe.  I don't think that all Christians will be Saved.

Hmm, I never considered this possibility in the strictest sense.

Can a person be a Christian and yet not even be remotely be headed toward Salvation?  I suppose it is possible if a person is living according to the teachings of the Church, Scriptures and Jesus in a legalistic way rather than through faith, such as the rich young ruler, could be considered a Christian in the same manner a person would be considered a Buddhist.  However, I personally would not consider such a person a Christian in the way I understand a true Christian, but it certainly a possible way to look at it.


Who is a Christian is determined by man.  Who is Saved is determined by God.  The writings of the Fathers contain stories of Bishops in Hell.  I bet most people thought they were Christian.  I also wonder how many people seeking God in remote parts of the world find Him the same way that Paul did.  There is no Salvation without Christ.  But really, how many of the World's "Christians" know anything about Him?

I understand this clear enough, I think, but I just never thought of it this way before.  It makes a lot of sense though.
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« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2013, 04:21:03 PM »

A friend of mine professes herself to be a Christian and, admittedly, she's doing it a lot better than me. However, she told me she hasn't been baptised. I could barely prevent myself from saying "whoever is not baptised isn't a Christian either". Is this true, though? Can unbaptised people call themselves Christian? What makes one a Christian?

You must be baptized. There are rare exception but this doesn't sound like one of them.


The scripture indicates that Cornelius and his house were the LAST to be baptized with water. After this, new covenant Spirit baptism took full effect. Peter's vision of the unclean animals being made clean was the point of the change over from water baptism to Spirit baptism.

1. Peter had water baptized Jews only COMMANDING them to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

2. Then Peter has a vision inwhich he was commanded by God to eat all manner of animals. Peter said "no," and God rebuked him saying, "What God has cleansed do not call 'unclean.' "

3. Then Peter preached to the Gentiles saying that God shows no partiality and while he was speaking the Gentiles received the gift of the Spirit. He explained the vision of the unclean animals being made clean.

4. Then Peter takes a less dogmatic view of water baptism. Before his vision he preached it as a mandate. He COMMANDED the Jews to be water baptized invoking the name of Jesus. But now he consults the people rather than invoke the name of Jesus. He said, "What prevents these [Gentiles] from being baptized?" The people consent to their being baptized and Peter baptizes Cornelius and his house.

a. It is not to be ignored that Peter did NOT invoke the name of Jesus on this occasion. He consulted the people.

b. And when the people consented to the Gentiles being baptized Peter did NOT command it as he commanded the Jews before his vision. Our English translations erroneously translate the word protasso as "He commanded then to be baptized," when it actually says, "He pre-arranged for them to be baptized."

5. Then Peter reflected upon all that had happened and the word of Jesus came to his mind when He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shalll be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

This is when water baptism was finished and Spirit baptism took full effect. After the baptism of Cornelius and his house all baptisms in the book of Acts were Spirit baptisms.

There is only ONE baptism now which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2013, 04:36:49 PM »


There is only ONE baptism now which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.


You don't say?

So I guess our Lord was just fooling when He said “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5
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« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2013, 08:54:54 PM »


There is only ONE baptism now which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.


You don't say?

So I guess our Lord was just fooling when He said “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5


Water is a symbol for the word (Ephesians 5:26). Isaac was born of the Spirit from Sarah's womb as the result of the word (promise) of God. Isaac was not baptized. He was circumcised.

So you do not take the statement that there is ONE baptism to be true?


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« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2013, 08:59:07 PM »


There is only ONE baptism now which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.


You don't say?

So I guess our Lord was just fooling when He said “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5


Water is a symbol for the word (Ephesians 5:26). Isaac was born of the Spirit from Sarah's womb as the result of the word (promise) of God. Isaac was not baptized. He was circumcised.

So you do not take the statement that there is ONE baptism to be true?



We do not take your novel interpretation of the Bible to be true. Who taught it to you?
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« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2013, 09:01:45 PM »

Its not a question of not beleiving the statement, of course there is one baptism. Its a question of what this means. Does it mean with water or without? We Believe it to be with water.
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« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2013, 09:06:11 PM »

Water is a symbol for the word (Ephesians 5:26).

Then how come the Apostles very visibly practiced Baptism via immersion in water? It would seem very clearly that they--being inspired from the Holy Spirit and all--would know what the proper meaning of the statement was. And if they took it to refer to physical water, then who are you to go against them?
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« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2013, 09:12:57 PM »

“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5

This raises a question I have. What then of those unbaptized?
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« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2013, 09:13:42 PM »

What makes one a Christian?

Easter bonnets.

'Nuf said.
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« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2013, 09:16:51 PM »

“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5

This raises a question I have. What then of those unbaptized?

That's up to God and not for us to inquire, but to try to follow His instructions to be Baptised to our very best ability and leave the confusing "what-if's?" to Him.
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« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2013, 09:21:10 PM »

“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5

This raises a question I have. What then of those unbaptized?

That's up to God and not for us to inquire, but to try to follow His instructions to be Baptised to our very best ability and leave the confusing "what-if's?" to Him.
Up to God? Well what's quoted is from God.

Romans 8 and all that, but wasn't there some sort of theologumen about being baptized after death?
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« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2013, 09:23:26 PM »

Here's a good question for Evangelicals which reverses their common doubt to water baptism; if water baptism makes you so uneasy because you worry about the fate of those who haven't been baptized via water, what makes your "spiritual" awakening-feeling-acceptancey baptism any less frightening? What about those who lack the cognitive ability (such as the mentally impaired) to "accept" Jesus and be "born-again"? See, there's nothing you can do about that, whereas with water baptism, they can still be baptized no matter what the condition of their brain.
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« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2013, 09:25:04 PM »

Up to God? Well what's quoted is from God.

He very clearly ordered us to be baptized and said that you don't have life unless you are baptized. That's all we know. Everything else hasn't been revealed to us.

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but wasn't there some sort of theologumen about being baptized after death?

I dunno; I think that's a Mormon-restorationist cultic practice.
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« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2013, 09:30:34 PM »

Up to God? Well what's quoted is from God.

He very clearly ordered us to be baptized and said that you don't have life unless you are baptized. That's all we know. Everything else hasn't been revealed to us.
So unless you are born of water and Spirit, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So it sounds to me like a lot of folks would not be able to enter.

If those that are not batpized could enter the kingdom of heaven, then why would God say it to begin with?

I'm sure there is something more clearer in Scripture or maybe something simpler. I'm sure there is a good Orthodox response to this.

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I dunno; I think that's a Mormon-restorationist cultic practice.
You mean baptizing the dead here on Earth? I'm talking about being bapitzed after death in wherever our souls go to.
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« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2013, 11:34:31 AM »

If our Lord said to do it, who am I to object or say He was mistaken?

I don't have to know the exact mechanism in order to benefit from it, do I? After all I drive a car and use a computer and I have only the vaguest and probably inaccurate idea of how either works.

If I have the opportunity to be baptized, and our Lord said it was important, why not? Others may not have that opportunity, and those I believe can be safely left to His mercy.
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« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2013, 11:38:09 AM »

I remember a Protestant once saying that if water baptism is required for salvation, he was throwing out his Bible.

My eye twitched a bit.
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« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2013, 12:17:24 PM »

The Greek word baptizo means to immerse in water. No ifs or buts, no wriggle-room there. Deal with it, thethinker.
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« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2013, 01:45:10 PM »

I remember a Protestant once saying that if water baptism is required for salvation, he was throwing out his Bible.

I'm guessing he already did.
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« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2013, 02:32:26 PM »

I remember a Protestant once saying that if water baptism is required for salvation, he was throwing out his Bible.

I'm guessing he already did.

Good one! Grin
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« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2013, 12:22:00 PM »

Water is a symbol for the word (Ephesians 5:26).

Then how come the Apostles very visibly practiced Baptism via immersion in water? It would seem very clearly that they--being inspired from the Holy Spirit and all--would know what the proper meaning of the statement was. And if they took it to refer to physical water, then who are you to go against them?

First, where do you get the idea that the Apostles baptized by immersion?

Second, I have already shown that Peter recollected the word of the Lord, "John baptized with water. BUT you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Therefore, water baptism was meant to be temporary. Hebrews says that baptisms were imposed UNTIL the time of the reformation (the new covenant age).
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« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2013, 12:39:47 PM »

The Greek word baptizo means to immerse in water. No ifs or buts, no wriggle-room there. Deal with it, thethinker.

The Greek "baptizo" does NOT mean "to immerse." The word "baptizo" is used in Hebrews 9:10 about ritual baptisms which according to the next several verses involved sprinkling.
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« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2013, 12:43:33 PM »

Water is a symbol for the word (Ephesians 5:26).

Then how come the Apostles very visibly practiced Baptism via immersion in water? It would seem very clearly that they--being inspired from the Holy Spirit and all--would know what the proper meaning of the statement was. And if they took it to refer to physical water, then who are you to go against them?

First, where do you get the idea that the Apostles baptized by immersion?

It's what the word means

Quote
Second, I have already shown that Peter recollected the word of the Lord, "John baptized with water. BUT you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Therefore, water baptism was meant to be temporary. Hebrews says that baptisms were imposed UNTIL the time of the reformation (the new covenant age).

I'm guessing from this line of argument that you're pretty unfamiliar with non-English languages. If you're assuming that a 'but' or an 'until' in English has the same meaning as the equivalent word in the original language, you're liable to be disappointed. Even in English, though, the 'but' you quote above does not necessarily imply that those baptised in the Holy Spirit would not also be baptised with water. As for until, in many languages (and this is true of the Greek of the New Testament) it does not imply a negation at the end of the period as it does in English - so saying that baptism would be performed until time x does not in any way imply that they would cease after that time. Arguments made that rely on peculiarities of the language into which the text is translated simply don't hold water.

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« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2013, 12:47:20 PM »

The Greek word baptizo means to immerse in water. No ifs or buts, no wriggle-room there. Deal with it, thethinker.

The Greek "baptizo" does NOT mean "to immerse." The word "baptizo" is used in Hebrews 9:10 about ritual baptisms which according to the next several verses involved sprinkling.


The sprinkling in the following verses refers to the sprinkling of blood - they're not talking about baptism at all. But even if they were, it wouldn't alter the fact that baptizo means immerse.

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« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2013, 04:41:12 PM »

Water is a symbol for the word (Ephesians 5:26).

Then how come the Apostles very visibly practiced Baptism via immersion in water? It would seem very clearly that they--being inspired from the Holy Spirit and all--would know what the proper meaning of the statement was. And if they took it to refer to physical water, then who are you to go against them?

First, where do you get the idea that the Apostles baptized by immersion?

Second, I have already shown that Peter recollected the word of the Lord, "John baptized with water. BUT you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Therefore, water baptism was meant to be temporary. Hebrews says that baptisms were imposed UNTIL the time of the reformation (the new covenant age).


Even if, for the sake of argument, I accept your personal interpretation (which I don't, btw  Grin), how do you reconcile your er, unique interpretation with Jesus clearly saying that unless someone is born of water and the Spirit...?
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« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2013, 04:50:21 PM »

The Greek word baptizo means to immerse in water. No ifs or buts, no wriggle-room there. Deal with it, thethinker.

The Greek "baptizo" does NOT mean "to immerse." The word "baptizo" is used in Hebrews 9:10 about ritual baptisms which according to the next several verses involved sprinkling.


The Greek word baptizo did mean immerse. You could baptizein a piece of bread in the soup.
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« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2013, 08:08:54 PM »

It's what the word means

The word "baptizo" does NOT mean "to immerse." Hebrew 9:10 speaks expressly about the various "baptisms" that were practiced in the old testament. The word used is "baptizo" and the next several verses indicate that they were unmistakingly SPRINKLINGS.

Hebrews 9:13 - Numbers 19:17-18
Hebrews 9:19 - Exodus 24:6, 8
Hebrews 9:21 - Leviticus 8:19, 16:14

The sprinkling in the following verses refers to the sprinkling of blood - they're not talking about baptism at all. But even if they were, it wouldn't alter the fact that baptizo means immerse.

James

The sprinkling of blood is called "various baptisms" (baptizo, vs. 9).

Even if, for the sake of argument, I accept your personal interpretation (which I don't, btw  Grin), how do you reconcile your er, unique interpretation with Jesus clearly saying that unless someone is born of water and the Spirit...?

Already answered. Water was symbolic for the word. Jesus said, "You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you." Paul said that Jesus sanctifies His Church by the "washing of water which is the word."

I'm guessing from this line of argument that you're pretty unfamiliar with non-English languages. If you're assuming that a 'but' or an 'until' in English has the same meaning as the equivalent word in the original language, you're liable to be disappointed. Even in English, though, the 'but' you quote above does not necessarily imply that those baptised in the Holy Spirit would not also be baptised with water. As for until, in many languages (and this is true of the Greek of the New Testament) it does not imply a negation at the end of the period as it does in English - so saying that baptism would be performed until time x does not in any way imply that they would cease after that time. Arguments made that rely on peculiarities of the language into which the text is translated simply don't hold water.

James

Yet no water baptisms were performed by the apostles AFTER Peter recollected Christ's words. They were Spirit baptisms alone. There is but ONE baptism now and it has nothing to do with water.

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« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2013, 08:17:06 PM »

Do you remember the story of the Ethiopian who asked to be baptized after he saw a pool of water? ("What is to prevent me?") Why do you think he did that?

Again, there's always Christ Himself, who said one must be born from above of water and the Spirit. That's how one is born again.
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« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2013, 08:24:18 PM »

Do you remember the story of the Ethiopian who asked to be baptized after he saw a pool of water? ("What is to prevent me?") Why do you think he did that?

Again, there's always Christ Himself, who said one must be born from above of water and the Spirit. That's how one is born again.

Oh but it's just a symbol, and a suggestion at that! It really doesn't mean anything!
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« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2013, 08:25:46 PM »

Yet no water baptisms were performed by the apostles AFTER Peter recollected Christ's words. They were Spirit baptisms alone. There is but ONE baptism now and it has nothing to do with water.

By what authority you say that the Apostles stopped performing water baptisms?   Huh
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« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2013, 08:29:59 PM »

Yet no water baptisms were performed by the apostles AFTER Peter recollected Christ's words. They were Spirit baptisms alone. There is but ONE baptism now and it has nothing to do with water.

By what authority you say that the Apostles stopped performing water baptisms?   Huh

Yes, I did wonder where he may have heard that. As I heard, ancient churches that were dug up had baptismal areas, indicating that when Christians were allowed to practice their faith, this was an important part of it.
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« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2013, 08:33:24 PM »

Yet no water baptisms were performed by the apostles AFTER Peter recollected Christ's words. They were Spirit baptisms alone. There is but ONE baptism now and it has nothing to do with water.

By what authority you say that the Apostles stopped performing water baptisms?   Huh

Yes, I did wonder where he may have heard that. As I heard, ancient churches that were dug up had baptismal areas, indicating that when Christians were allowed to practice their faith, this was an important part of it.

Plus, the catacombs had to have access to underground streams, places where water could pool, etc., to baptize new converts. 
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« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2013, 10:38:52 PM »

Yet no water baptisms were performed by the apostles AFTER Peter recollected Christ's words. They were Spirit baptisms alone. There is but ONE baptism now and it has nothing to do with water.
What proof do you have for this far-fetched claim? Even if the Apostles didn't baptize anyone with water after a certain point in time, can you prove that the bishops they appointed didn't baptize with water?
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« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2013, 03:32:39 AM »

The Greek word baptizo means to immerse in water. No ifs or buts, no wriggle-room there. Deal with it, thethinker.

The Greek "baptizo" does NOT mean "to immerse." The word "baptizo" is used in Hebrews 9:10 about ritual baptisms which according to the next several verses involved sprinkling.


The sprinkling in the following verses refers to the sprinkling of blood - they're not talking about baptism at all. But even if they were, it wouldn't alter the fact that baptizo means immerse.

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Correct. Here is Heb. 9:13, which refers to the blood from sacrificial animals:

13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Here is the same verse, in the original Greek:

13 εἰ γὰρ τὸ αἷμα ταύρων καὶ τράγων καὶ σποδὸς δαμάλεως ραντίζουσα τοὺς κεκοινωμένους ἁγιάζει πρὸς τὴν τῆς σαρκὸς καθαρότητα,

freddief, the bolded word rantizousa clearly means sprinkling. This word has no connection with the word for baptism, which means immersion. freddief, you can choose to disagree with this, but you would still be wrong.

Here are the other two verses you mentioned, with the word in question bolded:

19 λαληθείσης γὰρ πάσης ἐντολῆς κατὰ τὸν νόμον ὑπὸ Μωϋσέως παντὶ τῷ λαῷ, λαβὼν τὸ αἷμα τῶν μόσχων καὶ τράγων μετὰ ὕδατος καὶ ἐρίου κοκκίνου καὶ ὑσσώπου, αὐτό τε τὸ βιβλίον καὶ πάντα τὸν λαὸν ἐρράντισε

21 καὶ τὴν σκηνὴν δὲ καὶ πάντα τὰ σκεύη τῆς λειτουργίας τῷ αἵματι ὁμοίως ἐρράντισε.

By contrast, Christ's Great Commission to the Apostles doesn't mention sprinkling, but baptism (immersion). None of the mentions of baptism in the Gospels and the Epistles use the word for sprinkling.

The mention of the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, and the existence of ancient baptistries which clearly would have been filled with water further confirms the fact that the practice of baptism by immersion was the standard practice, and continues to be among the Orthodox to this day.



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« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2013, 10:54:45 PM »

What is this water is a symbol for word business, is this a correct symbolic interpretation that thethinker puts forth? I heard a podcast today from an Othodox priest who preach that the word of scripture is a transmitter of the Holy Spirit, could there be validity to this "word=water" deal?
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« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2013, 11:55:25 PM »

To have the Holy Spirit indwelling, which comes before baptism (otherwise, no one would seek to be baptized, because the urge to be purified is not our own doing).

Acts 10:44 - 48
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


Who would dare to say they were not Christians?
That would work only if one assumes the Holy Spirit (in your words) "comes before baptism" [always].

The book of Acts which you quoted, however, does not assume this is always the case (Acts 8:16: "the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus" (cf. also chrismation).
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« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2013, 11:59:18 PM »

I honestly don't like discussing what it takes to "be a Christian", since the word "be" is a static verb that doesn't imply any action whatsoever.
+1

A better question might be what it means to abide (Gk. meno: abide/continue/remain/endure) in Christ.
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« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2013, 12:05:47 AM »

Quote
What makes one a Christian?


A follower of Jesus Christ.
Yes, but there are those who ostensibly follow, e.g. wheat and weeds coexist in the kingdom, and those in the Gospels who followed Him but later turned away.
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« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2013, 12:16:42 AM »

This sort of question is often asked with the presupposition that there is some sort of "bare minimum."

"It is like being asked, 'define the bare minimum of loving your wife' and the 'bare minimums' you need in order to have a relationship with her.' The question presupposes that a person can somehow be encapsulated by a description or that love has 'minimums.' ...Eastern thinking Christians will answer in expansive terms. They can never say too much, they will always say too little. One can never fully encapsulate the experience of theosis -union with God and partaking of the divine nature- which is salvation. -Jordan Bajis, Common Ground, p. 118.

"Cheap grace is the deadly enemy of our Church... Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ living and Incarnate. Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble. It is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him..." (Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship, p. 47).
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« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2013, 11:05:19 AM »

I believe a true Christian is one who believes AND practices all of the following:

1. That Christ is God
2,. The Virgin Mary is His Mother
3. The Trinity and the three-persons it comprises
4. Frequent participation AND belief in the 7 Holy Sacraments
5. The Word of God and how He commands

I believe these are the essentials. The thing is, sadly, for whatever reasons, some will prefer or are taught to believe in 'one of the following,' or change them to fit their lifestyle. This is wrong. I guess that's the reason why we are not 'one' as Christians (which prompted my post 'will Christians ever be one.') You can't change dogma; nor add to it as you like. (I think Catholicism started the changing of dogma....then I think Henry the Eighth and so on.) 
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« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2013, 06:21:59 AM »

To have the Holy Spirit indwelling, which comes before baptism (otherwise, no one would seek to be baptized, because the urge to be purified is not our own doing).

Acts 10:44 - 48
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


Who would dare to say they were not Christians?

It's as if this just struck me for the first time. A profound insight on the role of the Spirit. Thank you so much for illuminating this passage. I think this is the final word on the matter.
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« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2013, 08:17:42 PM »

  Baptism is generally necessary for salvation, it seems clear that the Bible is explicit about this, especially in St. Paul's letters.   However, that isn't to say its not possible to have extraordinary events happen.
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« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2013, 08:34:05 PM »

  Baptism is generally necessary for salvation, it seems clear that the Bible is explicit about this, especially in St. Paul's letters.   However, that isn't to say its not possible to have extraordinary events happen.

Sounds awfully similar to the circumcision controversy.
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« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2013, 10:58:00 PM »

Sounds awfully similar to the circumcision controversy.

  Well, circumcision is quite useless now... I believe that's not controversial for a Christian.   Saint Paul seems to make that clear, the only way that circumcision could be useful is if we all kept the whole Torah, and we don't...   The Jews failed to be a blessing to the nations and reconcile the world to God, so it was necessary that Jesus Christ do that himself.
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« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2013, 11:06:04 PM »

Sounds awfully similar to the circumcision controversy.

  Well, circumcision is quite useless now... I believe that's not controversial for a Christian.   Saint Paul seems to make that clear, the only way that circumcision could be useful is if we all kept the whole Torah, and we don't...   The Jews failed to be a blessing to the nations and reconcile the world to God, so it was necessary that Jesus Christ do that himself.
My point wasn't about circumcision in and of itself, however the idea that "if one does not get a circumcision baptized ONE CANNOT BE SAVED" is a very dangerous thing to say.  The problem with the Pharisees of the Second Temple Period was that they did things only to do it, they sacrificed defective animals which cost a dime a dozen just for the soul purpose of fulfilling the physical commandments of sacrificing said animals, they failed to realize that the real sacrifice was not the animal itself but the faith that went behind it (in the First Temple and early Second Temple Period it would have been similar to sacrificing your pet dog).  It is not the physical baptism which saves you, it is the desire you have to get the baptism in the first place.  This is why St. Ruth is a canonized saint.
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« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2013, 11:05:42 AM »

A friend of mine professes herself to be a Christian and, admittedly, she's doing it a lot better than me. However, she told me she hasn't been baptised. I could barely prevent myself from saying "whoever is not baptised isn't a Christian either". Is this true, though? Can unbaptised people call themselves Christian? What makes one a Christian?

You must be baptized. There are rare exception but this doesn't sound like one of them.


The scripture indicates that Cornelius and his house were the LAST to be baptized with water. After this, new covenant Spirit baptism took full effect. Peter's vision of the unclean animals being made clean was the point of the change over from water baptism to Spirit baptism.

1. Peter had water baptized Jews only COMMANDING them to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

2. Then Peter has a vision inwhich he was commanded by God to eat all manner of animals. Peter said "no," and God rebuked him saying, "What God has cleansed do not call 'unclean.' "

3. Then Peter preached to the Gentiles saying that God shows no partiality and while he was speaking the Gentiles received the gift of the Spirit. He explained the vision of the unclean animals being made clean.

4. Then Peter takes a less dogmatic view of water baptism. Before his vision he preached it as a mandate. He COMMANDED the Jews to be water baptized invoking the name of Jesus. But now he consults the people rather than invoke the name of Jesus. He said, "What prevents these [Gentiles] from being baptized?" The people consent to their being baptized and Peter baptizes Cornelius and his house.

a. It is not to be ignored that Peter did NOT invoke the name of Jesus on this occasion. He consulted the people.

b. And when the people consented to the Gentiles being baptized Peter did NOT command it as he commanded the Jews before his vision. Our English translations erroneously translate the word protasso as "He commanded then to be baptized," when it actually says, "He pre-arranged for them to be baptized."

5. Then Peter reflected upon all that had happened and the word of Jesus came to his mind when He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shalll be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

This is when water baptism was finished and Spirit baptism took full effect. After the baptism of Cornelius and his house all baptisms in the book of Acts were Spirit baptisms.

There is only ONE baptism now which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I don't really have much to say on this topic other than to say that the more bolded and oversized words I see in a post, the more I call the credibility of the author into question. Carry on...
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