OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 28, 2014, 10:54:39 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Sunday obligation  (Read 3541 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,956



« on: February 23, 2013, 12:07:34 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?
Logged

choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2013, 12:47:49 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.
Logged
Maximum Bob
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,776


Personal Text? We can have personal text?


« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2013, 01:36:29 PM »

Interesting, it seems to me though that I heard something similar from Roman Catholic relatives a long time ago. Not saying your wrong, choy, just wondering why I've heard something similar if there's not something to it somewhere.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 01:37:28 PM by Maximum Bob » Logged

Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.

Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,068


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2013, 01:45:11 PM »

silly law.
*cough*

Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,240


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2013, 08:45:17 PM »

Simple question, simple answer: No.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,240


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2013, 08:54:34 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.

Oh...the "righteousness" of the newly converted  Roll Eyes.  C'mon, Choy, you should know better than that, even if you are rejecting Catholicism.  Check this out:
Quote
The moral obligation to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice on Sundays dates from the very beginning of Christianity, although it did not become a definite law of the Church until the fourth century. The meaning, the scope and the application of this law have been the subject of much research and study, not to mention considerable controversy, in the years following the Second Vatican Council. The matter can be studied from the vertical point of view, in that there exists the obligation to worship God, and also from the horizontal viewpoint, which involves all the anthropological aspects of every shade and hue. Both of these approaches are legitimate and easily lead to a solution, so long as they are integrated, and the conclusions drawn from each are given their proper place in the scale of values. But trouble begins when the proponents of one approach refuse to recognize the validity of the other. And here, as in so many other manifestations of the Church's discipline, the strength of our faith is all-important, and so is the regulating of all our acts by a truly religious conscience. Something similar happens in hospitals and schools, or in any institution with a set of rules that must be followed. Typical is a fixed schedule for meals, which people with a good appetite find no difficulty in obeying, while those with poor appetites regard it as an imposition to be avoided.

Much more here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/oblimass.htm
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2013, 08:57:43 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.

Oh...the "righteousness" of the newly converted  Roll Eyes.  C'mon, Choy, you should know better than that, even if you are rejecting Catholicism.  Check this out:
Quote
The moral obligation to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice on Sundays dates from the very beginning of Christianity, although it did not become a definite law of the Church until the fourth century. The meaning, the scope and the application of this law have been the subject of much research and study, not to mention considerable controversy, in the years following the Second Vatican Council. The matter can be studied from the vertical point of view, in that there exists the obligation to worship God, and also from the horizontal viewpoint, which involves all the anthropological aspects of every shade and hue. Both of these approaches are legitimate and easily lead to a solution, so long as they are integrated, and the conclusions drawn from each are given their proper place in the scale of values. But trouble begins when the proponents of one approach refuse to recognize the validity of the other. And here, as in so many other manifestations of the Church's discipline, the strength of our faith is all-important, and so is the regulating of all our acts by a truly religious conscience. Something similar happens in hospitals and schools, or in any institution with a set of rules that must be followed. Typical is a fixed schedule for meals, which people with a good appetite find no difficulty in obeying, while those with poor appetites regard it as an imposition to be avoided.

Much more here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/oblimass.htm

I've had that stance long before I considered converting to Orthodoxy.  So please don't accuse me of taking up that mentality just because I'm a new convert to Orthodoxy.  People don't need to be threatened under pain of Mortal Sin for missing Sunday Mass.  We had an RC priest who excellently expressed in a non-legalistic way why we need to go to Mass every Sunday.  To tell people simply that they need to go to Mass or go to hell is indeed silly.
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,956



« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2013, 07:36:04 AM »

Simple question, simple answer: No.

Thank you for the answer. I wonder if you could elaborate?  IIRC according to RCC we have both valid and effacious sacraments and churches despite lack of communion with Rome. Now I could understand the RC position in case there isn't a Catholic mass/liturgy/qurbono/etc. available but in case there isn't one would assume that valid sacrament is pretty strong reason to attend Orthodox liturgy.
Logged

William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2013, 09:46:17 AM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.

Oh...the "righteousness" of the newly converted  Roll Eyes.  C'mon, Choy, you should know better than that, even if you are rejecting Catholicism.  Check this out:
Quote
The moral obligation to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice on Sundays dates from the very beginning of Christianity, although it did not become a definite law of the Church until the fourth century. The meaning, the scope and the application of this law have been the subject of much research and study, not to mention considerable controversy, in the years following the Second Vatican Council. The matter can be studied from the vertical point of view, in that there exists the obligation to worship God, and also from the horizontal viewpoint, which involves all the anthropological aspects of every shade and hue. Both of these approaches are legitimate and easily lead to a solution, so long as they are integrated, and the conclusions drawn from each are given their proper place in the scale of values. But trouble begins when the proponents of one approach refuse to recognize the validity of the other. And here, as in so many other manifestations of the Church's discipline, the strength of our faith is all-important, and so is the regulating of all our acts by a truly religious conscience. Something similar happens in hospitals and schools, or in any institution with a set of rules that must be followed. Typical is a fixed schedule for meals, which people with a good appetite find no difficulty in obeying, while those with poor appetites regard it as an imposition to be avoided.

Much more here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/oblimass.htm

I've had that stance long before I considered converting to Orthodoxy.  So please don't accuse me of taking up that mentality just because I'm a new convert to Orthodoxy.  People don't need to be threatened under pain of Mortal Sin for missing Sunday Mass.  We had an RC priest who excellently expressed in a non-legalistic way why we need to go to Mass every Sunday.  To tell people simply that they need to go to Mass or go to hell is indeed silly.

J Michael is very touchy about anything even slightly critical of his communion.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,956



« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2013, 11:27:56 AM »

J Michael is very touchy about anything even slightly critical of his communion.

It probably has something to do with the fact that most of the EO-RC discussions on this forum are quite polemical
Logged

TheMathematician
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: American
Posts: 1,556


Formerly known as Montalo


« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2013, 02:24:31 PM »

Simple question, simple answer: No.

Thank you for the answer. I wonder if you could elaborate?  IIRC according to RCC we have both valid and effacious sacraments and churches despite lack of communion with Rome. Now I could understand the RC position in case there isn't a Catholic mass/liturgy/qurbono/etc. available but in case there isn't one would assume that valid sacrament is pretty strong reason to attend Orthodox liturgy.

And, from my remberance, the RCC does agree with you. However, strictly speaking to the question of does one NEED to attend, if there is no Catholic Mass/Liturgy, the answer is no, bnecause the need to attend Mass/Liturgy no longer exists. However, sattending the Orthodox Liturgy would be encouraged.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,816


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 02:33:54 PM »

Around my neck of the woods, "Sunday obligation" is what you drop in the collection basket!  Grin

Seriously, it is no coincidence that old habits die hard. In spite of being Orthodox for most of the past century, century the sense of being "obliged" to attend Sunday liturgy remains in a vestigial form among many OCA and ACROD communities as a consequence of the present day faithful being influenced by parents and grandparents who were taught from old Greek Catholic catechisms. These two jurisdictions have the highest weekly percentages of regular church attendance among American Orthodox and a percentage higher than post Vatican Catholics.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,240


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 04:40:18 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.

Oh...the "righteousness" of the newly converted  Roll Eyes.  C'mon, Choy, you should know better than that, even if you are rejecting Catholicism.  Check this out:
Quote
The moral obligation to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice on Sundays dates from the very beginning of Christianity, although it did not become a definite law of the Church until the fourth century. The meaning, the scope and the application of this law have been the subject of much research and study, not to mention considerable controversy, in the years following the Second Vatican Council. The matter can be studied from the vertical point of view, in that there exists the obligation to worship God, and also from the horizontal viewpoint, which involves all the anthropological aspects of every shade and hue. Both of these approaches are legitimate and easily lead to a solution, so long as they are integrated, and the conclusions drawn from each are given their proper place in the scale of values. But trouble begins when the proponents of one approach refuse to recognize the validity of the other. And here, as in so many other manifestations of the Church's discipline, the strength of our faith is all-important, and so is the regulating of all our acts by a truly religious conscience. Something similar happens in hospitals and schools, or in any institution with a set of rules that must be followed. Typical is a fixed schedule for meals, which people with a good appetite find no difficulty in obeying, while those with poor appetites regard it as an imposition to be avoided.

Much more here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/oblimass.htm

I've had that stance long before I considered converting to Orthodoxy.  So please don't accuse me of taking up that mentality just because I'm a new convert to Orthodoxy.  People don't need to be threatened under pain of Mortal Sin for missing Sunday Mass.  We had an RC priest who excellently expressed in a non-legalistic way why we need to go to Mass every Sunday.  To tell people simply that they need to go to Mass or go to hell is indeed silly.

J Michael is very touchy about anything even slightly critical of his communion.

I am?  I guess, sometimes.  I most certainly wouldn't say I'm touchy about *anything* critical.  That's taking things a bit too far.  It depends on the criticism and how it's worded.  Was my response to Choy evidence of such touchiness?  Wait...don't answer that...I might get upset  Grin Grin Grin.  Besides, as Alpo intimated, the polemics here can sometimes be a little, shall we say, uncharitable and un-Christian, which may have something to do with it.  My hide thickens, though, with each post I read  Wink.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,240


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 04:44:21 PM »

Simple question, simple answer: No.

Thank you for the answer. I wonder if you could elaborate?  IIRC according to RCC we have both valid and effacious sacraments and churches despite lack of communion with Rome. Now I could understand the RC position in case there isn't a Catholic mass/liturgy/qurbono/etc. available but in case there isn't one would assume that valid sacrament is pretty strong reason to attend Orthodox liturgy.

And, from my remberance, the RCC does agree with you. However, strictly speaking to the question of does one NEED to attend, if there is no Catholic Mass/Liturgy, the answer is no, bnecause the need to attend Mass/Liturgy no longer exists. However, sattending the Orthodox Liturgy would be encouraged.

I, too, would encourage my Catholic brethren to attend the Orthodox DL if no Catholic liturgy, Eastern or Western, were available.  But no "obligation" is fulfilled by doing so.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,240


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 04:50:39 PM »

Simple question, simple answer: No.

Thank you for the answer. I wonder if you could elaborate?  IIRC according to RCC we have both valid and effacious sacraments and churches despite lack of communion with Rome. Now I could understand the RC position in case there isn't a Catholic mass/liturgy/qurbono/etc. available but in case there isn't one would assume that valid sacrament is pretty strong reason to attend Orthodox liturgy.

There's no need, really, to elaborate.  Your Sunday/Holy Day "obligation" is fulfilled only by attending a liturgy in a church in communion with Rome.  And, since no Orthodox churches are, unfortunately.....

Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,240


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2013, 04:53:19 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.

Oh...the "righteousness" of the newly converted  Roll Eyes.  C'mon, Choy, you should know better than that, even if you are rejecting Catholicism.  Check this out:
Quote
The moral obligation to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice on Sundays dates from the very beginning of Christianity, although it did not become a definite law of the Church until the fourth century. The meaning, the scope and the application of this law have been the subject of much research and study, not to mention considerable controversy, in the years following the Second Vatican Council. The matter can be studied from the vertical point of view, in that there exists the obligation to worship God, and also from the horizontal viewpoint, which involves all the anthropological aspects of every shade and hue. Both of these approaches are legitimate and easily lead to a solution, so long as they are integrated, and the conclusions drawn from each are given their proper place in the scale of values. But trouble begins when the proponents of one approach refuse to recognize the validity of the other. And here, as in so many other manifestations of the Church's discipline, the strength of our faith is all-important, and so is the regulating of all our acts by a truly religious conscience. Something similar happens in hospitals and schools, or in any institution with a set of rules that must be followed. Typical is a fixed schedule for meals, which people with a good appetite find no difficulty in obeying, while those with poor appetites regard it as an imposition to be avoided.

Much more here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/oblimass.htm

I've had that stance long before I considered converting to Orthodoxy.  So please don't accuse me of taking up that mentality just because I'm a new convert to Orthodoxy.  People don't need to be threatened under pain of Mortal Sin for missing Sunday Mass.  We had an RC priest who excellently expressed in a non-legalistic way why we need to go to Mass every Sunday.  To tell people simply that they need to go to Mass or go to hell is indeed silly.

Forgive me if I have unjustly accused you.  I could not know that that was a long-held view of yours.  I beg your pardon.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,956



« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 07:32:46 PM »

There's no need, really, to elaborate.  Your Sunday/Holy Day "obligation" is fulfilled only by attending a liturgy in a church in communion with Rome.

Sunday/Holy Day obligation (Why the quatation marks?) is not about Jesus but about communion with Rome? Huh
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 07:33:05 PM by Alpo » Logged

choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 08:20:13 PM »

Forgive me if I have unjustly accused you.  I could not know that that was a long-held view of yours.  I beg your pardon.

Just go over to CAF and dig up my posts  Cheesy Grin
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 08:22:04 PM »

There's no need, really, to elaborate.  Your Sunday/Holy Day "obligation" is fulfilled only by attending a liturgy in a church in communion with Rome.

Sunday/Holy Day obligation (Why the quatation marks?) is not about Jesus but about communion with Rome? Huh

I doubt any Orthodox priest would be encouraging someone to go to a Roman Catholic Church or a Protestant Church in the event they have no access to an Orthodox one.  Of course there are prayers one can do at home.  When I was young my mom would make us say a Rosary if we can't go to Church.  Not sure if it was official RCChurch teaching at that point.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,240


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2013, 10:21:21 AM »

Forgive me if I have unjustly accused you.  I could not know that that was a long-held view of yours.  I beg your pardon.

Just go over to CAF and dig up my posts  Cheesy Grin

No thanks  Wink.  No need to, now.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,240


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2013, 10:40:59 AM »

There's no need, really, to elaborate.  Your Sunday/Holy Day "obligation" is fulfilled only by attending a liturgy in a church in communion with Rome.

Sunday/Holy Day obligation (Why the quatation marks?) is not about Jesus but about communion with Rome? Huh

RE: the bolded part in blue...not sure, really.  Seemed like the thing to do at the time.  Grin

The following sequence of thoughts/questions occurred to me at some point last night while I was considering this during a lull in the hockey game:
1-Sunday obligation
2-Why is it an obligation?
3-Why do we go to Church?
4-To praise, worship, and adore God, and partake of His Body and Blood in community?
5-Matt. 22:36-40-- "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."


6-He used the word "commandment", not the word "suggestion".

So, our obligation is to love the Lord, and we fulfill it, in part anyway, by going to Church.

Does this make any sense?  Or am I missing the mark again and/or over-simplifying?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,365


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2013, 07:25:36 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.
You are right. Laws are silly, oh wait... no they are not.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2013, 07:34:35 PM »

You are right. Laws are silly, oh wait... no they are not.

Some laws are silly, some are not.  You cannot make a general statement in either direction.  Besides, Sunday Obligation as stated is silly.  Yes, we need to go to church every Sunday, everyday even.  But it shouldn't be expressed in a threattening way, which is the silly part.  God saves souls through love, not extortion.
Logged
ErmyCath
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 193



« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2013, 08:16:15 PM »

Not only does a non-Catholic liturgy not fulfill the Sunday obligation, attendance at a non-Catholic liturgy is itself a sin.  See Mortalium Animos, para. 8, Pope Pius XI (1928).

If a Catholic cannot attend a licit, valid Liturgy of the Catholic Rite, the obligation is dispensed.  Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2181.  However, he or she is still obligated to keep the Sabbath holy, which could be done by, among other things, praying the Rosary (as choy suggested), reading the Mass for the day at home, watching on television/internet, or some other method.  See Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2183.  One should discuss this with his or her pastor, who has the power to dispense from the obligation and provide a suggested alternate method of keeping the day holy.  See Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2181.

____
choy has a good point that goes more toward whether this "law" is a good pastoral choice on the part of the Church, who is obliged to make such laws according to the Church's theology.  My guess, from my limited experience amongst the Orthodox, is that many priests in floundering parishes might like the people to feel obligated under pain of "mortal sin" to come to Divine Liturgy.  But, the whole idea really doesn't work with the theology and pastoral nature of the Orthodox Church, as choy has adequately pointed out.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 08:18:37 PM by ErmyCath » Logged

"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2013, 09:23:16 PM »

Not only does a non-Catholic liturgy not fulfill the Sunday obligation, attendance at a non-Catholic liturgy is itself a sin.  See Mortalium Animos, para. 8, Pope Pius XI (1928).

If a Catholic cannot attend a licit, valid Liturgy of the Catholic Rite, the obligation is dispensed.  Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2181.  However, he or she is still obligated to keep the Sabbath holy, which could be done by, among other things, praying the Rosary (as choy suggested), reading the Mass for the day at home, watching on television/internet, or some other method.  See Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2183.  One should discuss this with his or her pastor, who has the power to dispense from the obligation and provide a suggested alternate method of keeping the day holy.  See Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2181.

____
choy has a good point that goes more toward whether this "law" is a good pastoral choice on the part of the Church, who is obliged to make such laws according to the Church's theology.  My guess, from my limited experience amongst the Orthodox, is that many priests in floundering parishes might like the people to feel obligated under pain of "mortal sin" to come to Divine Liturgy.  But, the whole idea really doesn't work with the theology and pastoral nature of the Orthodox Church, as choy has adequately pointed out.



I'm not against having a law, but how the law is stated.  In Orthodoxy a priest can deny you communion for not coming to Liturgy (I believe the canons state 3 times in a row, perhaps the priest can restrict it further).  But I doubt an Orthodox priest would outright say you're going to hell for it.

In one sense you can say they are the same since committing Mortal Sin would exclude you from communion.  But the other problem is in RC theology, Mortal Sin also condemns you to hell.  In Orthodoxy, excommunication (or exclusion from the Eucharist) isn't outright a condemnation to hell.  People can be barred from receiving as penance and all the time has already been to confession and has not committed the offence again.  If the RC law would say exclusion from the Eucharist, then it would be more in line with what the Orthodox Church does.  Being under pain of Mortal Sin means your soul is in danger, as per RC theology.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 09:23:50 PM by choy » Logged
ErmyCath
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 193



« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2013, 09:24:27 PM »

I'm not against having a law, but how the law is stated.  In Orthodoxy a priest can deny you communion for not coming to Liturgy (I believe the canons state 3 times in a row, perhaps the priest can restrict it further).  But I doubt an Orthodox priest would outright say you're going to hell for it.

In one sense you can say they are the same since committing Mortal Sin would exclude you from communion.  But the other problem is in RC theology, Mortal Sin also condemns you to hell.  In Orthodoxy, excommunication (or exclusion from the Eucharist) isn't outright a condemnation to hell.  People can be barred from receiving as penance and all the time has already been to confession and has not committed the offence again.  If the RC law would say exclusion from the Eucharist, then it would be more in line with what the Orthodox Church does.  Being under pain of Mortal Sin means your soul is in danger, as per RC theology.

Good point and well-said.
Logged

"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,365


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2013, 09:25:28 PM »

You are right. Laws are silly, oh wait... no they are not.

Some laws are silly, some are not.  You cannot make a general statement in either direction.  Besides, Sunday Obligation as stated is silly.  Yes, we need to go to church every Sunday, everyday even.  But it shouldn't be expressed in a threattening way, which is the silly part.  God saves souls through love, not extortion.
Yeah, it's silly when God says things like "Remember the Sabbath day, to Keep it holy" and the like. He shoul have stated it in a more non-threatening way.  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes Another disaffected Catholic...
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2013, 09:26:13 PM »

You are right. Laws are silly, oh wait... no they are not.

Some laws are silly, some are not.  You cannot make a general statement in either direction.  Besides, Sunday Obligation as stated is silly.  Yes, we need to go to church every Sunday, everyday even.  But it shouldn't be expressed in a threattening way, which is the silly part.  God saves souls through love, not extortion.
Yeah, it's silly when God says things like "Remember the Sabbath day, to Keep it holy" and the like. He shoul have stated it in a more non-threatening way.  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes Another disaffected Catholic...

Which is what Christ did Wink
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2013, 09:27:54 PM »

Another disaffected Catholic...

You probably have a longer list of complaints about the Catholic Church than I do Wink
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,816


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2013, 09:28:44 PM »

Laws...defining things...sigh...

More important are the thoughts expressed by the North American Orthodox,Roman Catholic consultation on the importance of Sunday...The Importance Of Sunday"  http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/orthodox/the-importance-of-sunday.cfm
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,365


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2013, 09:29:45 PM »

Another disaffected Catholic...

You probably have a longer list of complaints about the Catholic Church than I do Wink
I've just never been too impressed with the silly arguments against the Catholic Church which recent defectors make. It seems like they are just looking for a reason to disagree. I'm more impressed with the substantial arguments raised by those who have been Orthodox for a long time. At least they provide something real to argue about.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,001


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2013, 09:31:41 PM »

Not only does a non-Catholic liturgy not fulfill the Sunday obligation, attendance at a non-Catholic liturgy is itself a sin.  See Mortalium Animos, para. 8, Pope Pius XI (1928).

No longer applicable.  Canon Law even provides for Catholics to approach non-Catholics for sacraments in extreme circunstances.  Whether the non-Catholic minister obliges is a seperate matter.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2013, 09:32:53 PM »

Another disaffected Catholic...

You probably have a longer list of complaints about the Catholic Church than I do Wink
I've just never been too impressed with the silly arguments against the Catholic Church which recent defectors make. It seems like they are just looking for a reason to disagree. I'm more impressed with the substantial arguments raised by those who have been Orthodox for a long time. At least they provide something real to argue about.

Read back, I've disagreed with that stance even before I became Eastern Catholic.  Besides the Papacy, I don't think there is anything I dislike about the Catholic Church today that I didn't dislike before I even considered converting to Orthodoxy.  You're thinking I'm making stuff up becaue I left the Catholic Church.  Have you considered that I have felt this way before which is why I left the Catholic Church?  It's a cause, not an effect.
Logged
ErmyCath
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 193



« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2013, 09:35:47 PM »

Not only does a non-Catholic liturgy not fulfill the Sunday obligation, attendance at a non-Catholic liturgy is itself a sin.  See Mortalium Animos, para. 8, Pope Pius XI (1928).

No longer applicable.  Canon Law even provides for Catholics to approach non-Catholics for sacraments in extreme circunstances.  Whether the non-Catholic minister obliges is a seperate matter.

As one of those recently disaffected Roman Catholics referenced above... this is precisely what made me leave: "No longer applicable."

Oops, the Church taught that for 1,900 years, but we have a better understanding now that the 1960s have come, so that rule is no longer applicable!  Ridiculous! 

______
The rest is somewhat off topic:

I question how the writings of a pope, who is the embodiment of the ordinary Magisterium can be overruled by, well, anything according to the logic of Catholic doctrine.  But, popes are also the supreme lawgiver on the earth and the sole interpreter of that law.  So, when a subsequent pope decides to rewrite Canon Law to abrogate a prior pope's writing, it is indeed abrogated.  This is true even when a pope writes something as forceful as, "So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it."  [Side note - the last little bit about "exactly the same as He instituted it" is pretty funny in light of the fact that the Catholic Church no longer teaches the very doctrine the pope is here outlining.]

Ever-changing doctrine... Which pope do you follow?  Because the one who happens to be living when you are may or may not actually be teaching in accordance with the many who came before him.  You'd be a heretic and outside the Church if 100 years ago you believed in approaching non-Catholics for the Sacraments, now you must believe that or you are a heretic.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 09:46:17 PM by ErmyCath » Logged

"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,365


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2013, 09:37:53 PM »

Another disaffected Catholic...

You probably have a longer list of complaints about the Catholic Church than I do Wink
I've just never been too impressed with the silly arguments against the Catholic Church which recent defectors make. It seems like they are just looking for a reason to disagree. I'm more impressed with the substantial arguments raised by those who have been Orthodox for a long time. At least they provide something real to argue about.

Read back, I've disagreed with that stance even before I became Eastern Catholic.  Besides the Papacy, I don't think there is anything I dislike about the Catholic Church today that I didn't dislike before I even considered converting to Orthodoxy.  You're thinking I'm making stuff up becaue I left the Catholic Church.  Have you considered that I have felt this way before which is why I left the Catholic Church?  It's a cause, not an effect.
Well, if you left because of things like "sunday obligation," I have to say I'm not terribly impressed. If you left, on the other hand, because you don't believe in Purgatory, the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, then I completely understand your decision.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2013, 09:46:19 PM »

Well, if you left because of things like "sunday obligation," I have to say I'm not terribly impressed. If you left, on the other hand, because you don't believe in Purgatory, the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, then I completely understand your decision.

I didn't say I left just on this one issue.  But its one of many.  I'm just saying my objection to this has been there for a long time so your accusation that I'm just talking this way because I converted is false.  As also mentioned earlier in this thread, feel free to dig up my posts at CAF if you want proof.

Its funny because in the Philippines there is a pseudo-Christian cult that actually takes weekly attendance.  They have punchcards in the "narthex".  If you don't come one Sunday you get a visit from the minister.  If you are travelling then you need to get permission and you also need to get a signed slip or something from whatever other "temple" you attended and you need to show that back to your home "temple".  We used to laugh at this, what a silly way to get people to come on Sundays.  But then I realized, RC canon law isn't much different.  There is a spiritual gun pointed at your head.  I don't doubt that non-attendance of Liturgy at appropriate times would lead us down the wrong path and eventually to hell.  But do we have to state it plainly that way?  For people who understand the purpose of worship, they don't need any threats.  For people who don't, threats only drive them further away.
Logged
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,171


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2013, 09:52:00 PM »

I, too, would encourage my Catholic brethren to attend the Orthodox DL if no Catholic liturgy, Eastern or Western, were available.  But no "obligation" is fulfilled by doing so.

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,001


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2013, 09:53:03 PM »

Not only does a non-Catholic liturgy not fulfill the Sunday obligation, attendance at a non-Catholic liturgy is itself a sin.  See Mortalium Animos, para. 8, Pope Pius XI (1928).

No longer applicable.  Canon Law even provides for Catholics to approach non-Catholics for sacraments in extreme circunstances.  Whether the non-Catholic minister obliges is a seperate matter.

As one of those recently disaffected Roman Catholics referenced above... this is precisely what made me leave: "No longer applicable."

Oops, the Church taught that for 1,900 years, but we have a better understanding now that the 1960s have come, so that rule is no longer applicable!  Ridiculous!

So you purposely posted old information knowing it is not true?  Nice...  So in essence what you are saying is "One of the reasons I am becoming Orthodox is because the Catholic Church that used to say going to an Orthodox Liturgy was a sin no longer does."  If you were being consistent you'd be going SSPX.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,001


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2013, 10:00:33 PM »

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......

A Catholic's Sunday obligation is to attend a Catholic Liturgy.  For Latin Catholics that means Mass.  For Eastern Catholics that means Divine Liturgy/Vespers/Matins/Typica. If none of these are available there is no obligation.  That does not mean one could not spiritually benefit from attending an Orthodox service.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2013, 10:04:32 PM »

I, too, would encourage my Catholic brethren to attend the Orthodox DL if no Catholic liturgy, Eastern or Western, were available.  But no "obligation" is fulfilled by doing so.

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?
Logged
ErmyCath
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 193



« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2013, 10:06:37 PM »

Mortalium Animos is true from a Catholic perspective... But, with the advent of false ecumenism, it is no longer followed. As you know, that is part of the on-going debate between the so-called Traditionalists and the hierarchy.

I tried to think like an SSPX adherent, I didn't have the wherewithal for it. I couldn't wrap my head around the idea that I had to drive 3 hours round trip, past dozens of "regular" Catholic Churches to get to the remnant of actual Catholicism that remained. In examining that, I found other inconsistencies in Catholic theological and historical arguments.  And so I ended up studying Orthodoxy. 

And, by the way, despite your snarkiness, the fact that the Catholic Church taught for 19 centuries the sinfulness of something and then suddenly changed that position is not a minor thing for a Church that, as I posted, professes to keep the faith of the Apostles in tact and undefiled.

I posted in this thread because, as a former Catholic catechist, I happen still to have a knowledge base of Catholic things, one of which was the subject matter here. 

I appreciate your concern about my being consistent, though. Believe me, the irony of my situation is not lost on me.

 :-)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 10:14:56 PM by ErmyCath » Logged

"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic
ErmyCath
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 193



« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2013, 10:08:50 PM »

I, too, would encourage my Catholic brethren to attend the Orthodox DL if no Catholic liturgy, Eastern or Western, were available.  But no "obligation" is fulfilled by doing so.

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?

They do.  Laity can lead a Communion Service without a priest or any clergy.  It is basically a Liturgy of the Word followed by distribution of Communion a la when laity take a Communion to the homebound.
Logged

"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2013, 10:21:14 PM »

I, too, would encourage my Catholic brethren to attend the Orthodox DL if no Catholic liturgy, Eastern or Western, were available.  But no "obligation" is fulfilled by doing so.

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?

They do.  Laity can lead a Communion Service without a priest or any clergy.  It is basically a Liturgy of the Word followed by distribution of Communion a la when laity take a Communion to the homebound.

I mean you can run something from home in the event you cannot make it to church on a given Sunday.
Logged
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,171


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2013, 10:22:23 PM »

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......

A Catholic's Sunday obligation is to attend a Catholic Liturgy.  For Latin Catholics that means Mass.  For Eastern Catholics that means Divine Liturgy/Vespers/Matins/Typica. If none of these are available there is no obligation.  That does not mean one could not spiritually benefit from attending an Orthodox service.

How would they 'benefit' since they would be attending knowing it would be a Mortal Sin to do so?  IOW, No Obligation, No benefit. There is a confusion here........IF what you say is true, then an 'obligation' is being satisfied and No Mortal Sin is a result.......or am I not seeing this dichotomy correctly?
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,001


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2013, 10:23:41 PM »

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?

It does.  
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.171 seconds with 73 queries.