OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 21, 2014, 03:22:49 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Sunday obligation  (Read 2971 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 11,913


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2013, 08:08:57 PM »

Uh, we are obligated to worship God by the First Commandment. If there can't be a canon law which supports that, then we may as well have no canons anyway.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2013, 08:10:13 PM »

Uh, we are obligated to worship God by the First Commandment. If there can't be a canon law which supports that, then we may as well have no canons anyway.
Good point.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,393


« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2013, 10:46:52 PM »

Exactly. I've heard (though correct me if I'm wrong) that Christ actually warned about hell more than He talked about heaven in the New Testament.

Warning about hell and threattening it are two different things.  Telling someone that they should be careful and if not they could fall over the bridge is different from telling someone you'll throw them over the bridge.
It isn't a "threat," it's a warning. Anyone who is in mortal sin can repent by availing themselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2013, 11:33:25 PM »

Uh, we are obligated to worship God by the First Commandment. If there can't be a canon law which supports that, then we may as well have no canons anyway.

Is there a canon law about murder?
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2013, 11:34:03 PM »

Uh, we are obligated to worship God by the First Commandment. If there can't be a canon law which supports that, then we may as well have no canons anyway.
Good point.

Not really.  Not all commandments are codified in Canon Law.  Also, if it is already in the 10 commandments, why does it need to be in canon law?
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2013, 11:35:39 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2013, 11:48:31 PM »

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?

It does.  

Sorry, I'm talking about RCs.

So am I.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2013, 11:06:47 AM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.

If you love someone, especially God, you will continually strive to "...do what one does who loves God...", and when you fail and fall down, as you almost inevitably will, His commandments (which are not suggestions, btw) are there to remind you what you have failed at and what needs to be done.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that it is inherent in the nature of a "commandment" that one is obligated to follow it.  One is not obliged, however, to follow a suggestion.

In the Garden, God didn't threaten Adam and Eve with death if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  He just stated what the consequence of such an action would be.  There *is* a difference, you know.  I suppose one could, if one was rebellious and contrary enough, take such a statement of cause and effect as a "threat", however.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #98 on: February 28, 2013, 11:16:19 AM »

Michael,
You are correct. Choy is just playing semantic games.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
JoeS2
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 995


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #99 on: February 28, 2013, 11:31:22 AM »

There are many people of both Orthodox and Roman Catholic heritage who regardless of obligation feel the need to go to church on a regular basis.  After all, Communion isn't just the reception of the Body and Blood of Christ it is a fellowship or the Com Union of people gathered to worship in one place. Conversely, many O's and RC's do not attend regular Sunday services in spite of the 'obligation' that is placed on them.  So what matters is 'what is in the heart of the regular church goer'?  If he or she truly loves God then he or she will seek out this Comm.union without the threat of being cutoff so to speak.  There are many ways to 'keep the Sabbath Holy', attending church is one of them albeit an important one.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 11:33:40 AM by JoeS2 » Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,393


« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2013, 03:16:38 PM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
Logged
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,146



« Reply #101 on: March 01, 2013, 05:30:32 AM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 05:33:38 AM by Anastasia1 » Logged

Therefore prepare yourself and arise, and speak to them all that I command you. Do not be dismayed before their faces, Lest I dismay you before them.  For behold, I have made you this day a fortified city and an iron pillar, and bronze walls against the whole land...
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #102 on: March 01, 2013, 10:54:26 AM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.
You're playing word games, and I think you know it.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #103 on: March 01, 2013, 10:54:59 AM »

Uh, we are obligated to worship God by the First Commandment. If there can't be a canon law which supports that, then we may as well have no canons anyway.
Good point.

Not really.  Not all commandments are codified in Canon Law.  Also, if it is already in the 10 commandments, why does it need to be in canon law?
Yes, let's get rid of canon law altogher ya protestant.  Wink
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #104 on: March 01, 2013, 10:55:31 AM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #105 on: March 01, 2013, 10:55:50 AM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.
The first commandment obliges you to worship God, but you should still do it out of love.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,955


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #106 on: March 01, 2013, 10:56:38 AM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2013, 10:57:29 AM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html
What is more, EOs are obliged to go to Liturgy too. If they are absent after so many sundays, they are excommunicated. If they willfully choose to not remedy the situation, they place their souls in jeopardy.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #108 on: March 01, 2013, 11:15:58 AM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?

It's never been a problem.  Especially since, at least in the vast majority of RC parishes, one has an option of several Masses to attend.  Not so much so in the Byzantine parishes, though there are some that do celebrate a Vigil Mass on Saturday evenings.

So...I guess the alarm going off excuse doesn't quite cut it.  Did you dog eat your homework, too  Grin?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 11:16:24 AM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2013, 11:18:03 AM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Mortal sin requires full consent of the will. I doubt that missing mass because your forgort to set your alarm qualifies as full consent of the will. I've forgotten to go to mass on a Holy Day here or there. I did not willfull miss mass. Consequently, the priest to whom I confessed did not think it was a mortal sin.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #110 on: March 01, 2013, 11:22:00 AM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Mortal sin requires full consent of the will. I doubt that missing mass because your forgort to set your alarm qualifies as full consent of the will. I've forgotten to go to mass on a Holy Day here or there. I did not willfull miss mass. Consequently, the priest to whom I confessed did not think it was a mortal sin.

And yet you confessed it, nonetheless.  And that is NOT a criticism.  Wink
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #111 on: March 01, 2013, 12:05:07 PM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Mortal sin requires full consent of the will. I doubt that missing mass because your forgort to set your alarm qualifies as full consent of the will. I've forgotten to go to mass on a Holy Day here or there. I did not willfull miss mass. Consequently, the priest to whom I confessed did not think it was a mortal sin.

And yet you confessed it, nonetheless.  And that is NOT a criticism.  Wink
Haha, just in case. Cheesy
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,955


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #112 on: March 01, 2013, 12:06:33 PM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Mortal sin requires full consent of the will. I doubt that missing mass because your forgort to set your alarm qualifies as full consent of the will. I've forgotten to go to mass on a Holy Day here or there. I did not willfull miss mass. Consequently, the priest to whom I confessed did not think it was a mortal sin.

Ah, ok. Thank you.
Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #113 on: March 01, 2013, 12:08:05 PM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Mortal sin requires full consent of the will. I doubt that missing mass because your forgort to set your alarm qualifies as full consent of the will. I've forgotten to go to mass on a Holy Day here or there. I did not willfull miss mass. Consequently, the priest to whom I confessed did not think it was a mortal sin.

And yet you confessed it, nonetheless.  And that is NOT a criticism.  Wink
My carelessness was still probably a minor venial sin, or at the least an imperfection.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,955


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #114 on: March 01, 2013, 12:09:31 PM »

Another silly question: do Holy Days always fall on sundays? If not, what if you have to work/go to school on those days?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 12:09:42 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #115 on: March 01, 2013, 12:12:35 PM »

Another silly question: do Holy Days always fall on sundays? If not, what if you have to work/go to school on those days?
They do not always fall on Sundays. If you absolutely cannot get out of work, then the guilt is on your boss, not you. Though, there are certain jobs, like emergency work, which must work, and the Church understands that.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,955


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #116 on: March 01, 2013, 12:18:17 PM »

I see. Again, thank you.
Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #117 on: March 01, 2013, 12:20:43 PM »

Another silly question: do Holy Days always fall on sundays? If not, what if you have to work/go to school on those days?
They do not always fall on Sundays. If you absolutely cannot get out of work, then the guilt is on your boss, not you. Though, there are certain jobs, like emergency work, which must work, and the Church understands that.

This is correct.  Plus, again, most RC parishes will usually have more than just a single Mass on a Holy Day that falls on a weekday--sometimes a Vigil Mass on the evening before, then a morning Mass, and an afternoon or evening Mass on the day itself. 
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
TheMathematician
Banished and Disgraced
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian
Posts: 1,295


Formerly known as Montalo


« Reply #118 on: March 01, 2013, 12:22:11 PM »

Another silly question: do Holy Days always fall on sundays? If not, what if you have to work/go to school on those days?
They do not always fall on Sundays. If you absolutely cannot get out of work, then the guilt is on your boss, not you. Though, there are certain jobs, like emergency work, which must work, and the Church understands that.

This is correct.  Plus, again, most RC parishes will usually have more than just a single Mass on a Holy Day that falls on a weekday--sometimes a Vigil Mass on the evening before, then a morning Mass, and an afternoon or evening Mass on the day itself. 

Is it also not true that attending any Mass on that day will also work, ie, a regular weekday mass that is always scheduled for say, noon
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #119 on: March 01, 2013, 12:31:38 PM »

Another silly question: do Holy Days always fall on sundays? If not, what if you have to work/go to school on those days?
They do not always fall on Sundays. If you absolutely cannot get out of work, then the guilt is on your boss, not you. Though, there are certain jobs, like emergency work, which must work, and the Church understands that.

This is correct.  Plus, again, most RC parishes will usually have more than just a single Mass on a Holy Day that falls on a weekday--sometimes a Vigil Mass on the evening before, then a morning Mass, and an afternoon or evening Mass on the day itself. 

Is it also not true that attending any Mass on that day will also work, ie, a regular weekday mass that is always scheduled for say, noon

Yes.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,955


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #120 on: March 01, 2013, 12:32:37 PM »

Do Byzantine Catholics have holy days of obligation? Are they the same as in the Latin Church or do they correspond to the great feasts?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 12:33:25 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #121 on: March 01, 2013, 12:59:33 PM »

Do Byzantine Catholics have holy days of obligation? Are they the same as in the Latin Church or do they correspond to the great feasts?

Yes, we do.
Quote
The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches lays down the following norms for Eastern Catholic Churches:

    It is for the authority competent to establish the particular law of a sui iuris Church to constitute, transfer or suppress feast days and days of penance for that sui iuris Church, after, however, seeking the views of other sui iuris Churches and observing canon 40 §1.[2]

    Holy days of obligation common to all the Eastern Churches are, apart from Sundays, the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension, the Dormition of Holy Mary the Mother of God, and the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, except for a particular law of a sui iuris Church, approved by the Apostolic See, which suppresses some holy days of obligation or transfers them to a Sunday.[3]
    The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy or, according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own sui iuris Church, in the celebration of the divine praises.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_day_of_obligation#Eastern_Catholic_Churches
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #122 on: March 01, 2013, 01:24:03 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

Wrong.

ob·li·ga·tion (bl-gshn)
n.
1. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.
2.
a. A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action.
b. A course of action imposed by society, law, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted.
3. The constraining power of a promise, contract, law, or sense of duty.
4. Law
a. A legal agreement stipulating a specified payment or action, especially if the agreement also specifies a penalty for failure to comply.
b. The document containing the terms of such an agreement.
5.
a. Something owed as payment or in return for a special service or favor.
b. The service or favor for which one is indebted to another.
6. The state, fact, or feeling of being indebted to another for a special service or favor received.


Love does not make us obligate.  If we love God, we serve Him because we love him, not because we are obligated to do so.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #123 on: March 01, 2013, 01:25:59 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

Wrong.

ob·li·ga·tion (bl-gshn)
n.
1. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.
2.
a. A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action.
b. A course of action imposed by society, law, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted.
3. The constraining power of a promise, contract, law, or sense of duty.
4. Law
a. A legal agreement stipulating a specified payment or action, especially if the agreement also specifies a penalty for failure to comply.
b. The document containing the terms of such an agreement.
5.
a. Something owed as payment or in return for a special service or favor.
b. The service or favor for which one is indebted to another.
6. The state, fact, or feeling of being indebted to another for a special service or favor received.


Love does not make us obligate.  If we love God, we serve Him because we love him, not because we are obligated to do so.
The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #124 on: March 01, 2013, 01:35:23 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

Wrong.

ob·li·ga·tion (bl-gshn)
n.
1. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.
2.
a. A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action.
b. A course of action imposed by society, law, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted.
3. The constraining power of a promise, contract, law, or sense of duty.
4. Law
a. A legal agreement stipulating a specified payment or action, especially if the agreement also specifies a penalty for failure to comply.
b. The document containing the terms of such an agreement.
5.
a. Something owed as payment or in return for a special service or favor.
b. The service or favor for which one is indebted to another.
6. The state, fact, or feeling of being indebted to another for a special service or favor received.


Love does not make us obligate.  If we love God, we serve Him because we love him, not because we are obligated to do so.
The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.

He's too busy picking nits to see it Grin
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #125 on: March 01, 2013, 01:36:22 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

Wrong.

ob·li·ga·tion (bl-gshn)
n.
1. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.
2.
a. A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action.
b. A course of action imposed by society, law, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted.
3. The constraining power of a promise, contract, law, or sense of duty.
4. Law
a. A legal agreement stipulating a specified payment or action, especially if the agreement also specifies a penalty for failure to comply.
b. The document containing the terms of such an agreement.
5.
a. Something owed as payment or in return for a special service or favor.
b. The service or favor for which one is indebted to another.
6. The state, fact, or feeling of being indebted to another for a special service or favor received.


Love does not make us obligate.  If we love God, we serve Him because we love him, not because we are obligated to do so.
The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.

He's too busy picking nits to see it Grin
The favorite pastime of most ex-Catholics.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2013, 01:36:47 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

Wrong.

ob·li·ga·tion (bl-gshn)
n.
1. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.
2.
a. A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action.
b. A course of action imposed by society, law, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted.
3. The constraining power of a promise, contract, law, or sense of duty.
4. Law
a. A legal agreement stipulating a specified payment or action, especially if the agreement also specifies a penalty for failure to comply.
b. The document containing the terms of such an agreement.
5.
a. Something owed as payment or in return for a special service or favor.
b. The service or favor for which one is indebted to another.
6. The state, fact, or feeling of being indebted to another for a special service or favor received.


Love does not make us obligate.  If we love God, we serve Him because we love him, not because we are obligated to do so.

See reply #97 above.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #127 on: March 01, 2013, 01:37:07 PM »

The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.

Because I follow a faith that is not purely legalistic.  Not everything is an obligation.  The law is meant to guide us, not to rule us.  The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath.  We are not justified by observing the law (Gal 2:16).

Look, I don't feed my family and put a roof on their heads because it is my obligation to do so.  You can say that as a father and husband it is my obligation.  But I don't do it because it is my obligation, I do it because I love them.  Even without that obligation I will still do it, because I love them.  The same for God, in fact even more.  I don't have to be obligated to do something for God if I truly love him.  I will do what one does when one loves.  It is not because there is a consequence or because there is something forcing you to do so.  Love is not an obligation.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2013, 01:37:47 PM »

The favorite pastime of most ex-Catholics.

Speck meets plank, again.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #129 on: March 01, 2013, 01:40:03 PM »

The favorite pastime of most ex-Catholics.

Speck meets plank, again.
I'm not the one who is looking for imaginary problems, you are sir. What's it like, hunting for big foot?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: <Insert your favourite patriotic attribute here> Orthodox
Posts: 5,943



« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2013, 01:43:40 PM »

Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 01:45:48 PM by Alpo » Logged

choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2013, 01:46:01 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.

If you love someone, especially God, you will continually strive to "...do what one does who loves God...", and when you fail and fall down, as you almost inevitably will, His commandments (which are not suggestions, btw) are there to remind you what you have failed at and what needs to be done.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that it is inherent in the nature of a "commandment" that one is obligated to follow it.  One is not obliged, however, to follow a suggestion.

In the Garden, God didn't threaten Adam and Eve with death if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  He just stated what the consequence of such an action would be.  There *is* a difference, you know.  I suppose one could, if one was rebellious and contrary enough, take such a statement of cause and effect as a "threat", however.

I agree, but then why is one obligated to go to Mass on Sunday "under pain of Mortal Sin"?  And again I reiterate, Mortal Sin is an excommunication (you can't receive communion) and an anathema (RC theology teaches that one cannot go to heaven, even purgatory, if one has the stain of mortal sin on one's soul).  I've said again and again, I'm not against the Church saying we have to go to Sunday Liturgy.  I'm against the decree of obligating people under pain of mortal sin.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #132 on: March 01, 2013, 01:47:00 PM »

Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.

But he never condemned you to hell, did he?  That is what being under pain of mortal sin is.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #133 on: March 01, 2013, 01:47:28 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.

If you love someone, especially God, you will continually strive to "...do what one does who loves God...", and when you fail and fall down, as you almost inevitably will, His commandments (which are not suggestions, btw) are there to remind you what you have failed at and what needs to be done.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that it is inherent in the nature of a "commandment" that one is obligated to follow it.  One is not obliged, however, to follow a suggestion.

In the Garden, God didn't threaten Adam and Eve with death if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  He just stated what the consequence of such an action would be.  There *is* a difference, you know.  I suppose one could, if one was rebellious and contrary enough, take such a statement of cause and effect as a "threat", however.

I agree, but then why is one obligated to go to Mass on Sunday "under pain of Mortal Sin"?  And again I reiterate, Mortal Sin is an excommunication (you can't receive communion) and an anathema (RC theology teaches that one cannot go to heaven, even purgatory, if one has the stain of mortal sin on one's soul).  I've said again and again, I'm not against the Church saying we have to go to Sunday Liturgy.  I'm against the decree of obligating people under pain of mortal sin.
In your own church, if you miss several sundays in a row, you are excommunicated. It is taken quite seriously in the Orthodox Church as well.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #134 on: March 01, 2013, 01:47:44 PM »

The favorite pastime of most ex-Catholics.

Speck meets plank, again.
I'm not the one who is looking for imaginary problems, you are sir. What's it like, hunting for big foot?

Is it really an imaginary problem?  Just see the state of the spirituality in many of your parishes.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.153 seconds with 72 queries.