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Offline J Michael

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2013, 01:47:49 PM »
The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.

Because I follow a faith that is not purely legalistic.  Not everything is an obligation.  The law is meant to guide us, not to rule us.  The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath.  We are not justified by observing the law (Gal 2:16).

Look, I don't feed my family and put a roof on their heads because it is my obligation to do so.  You can say that as a father and husband it is my obligation.  But I don't do it because it is my obligation, I do it because I love them.  Even without that obligation I will still do it, because I love them.  The same for God, in fact even more.  I don't have to be obligated to do something for God if I truly love him.  I will do what one does when one loves.  It is not because there is a consequence or because there is something forcing you to do so.  Love is not an obligation.

The fact that you do it out of love is highly commendable, but it doesn't eliminate the obligation you have to do so, even if NOT out of love, or while your love is growing and maturing.

I really do think you need to get past the word "obligation" and look more deeply.  Or, even better, just accept that the Catholic Church uses that particular term, get over it, and move on to things that will deepen your *Orthodox* spiritual life.  (Didn't I already say something like that??)
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Offline Papist

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #136 on: March 01, 2013, 01:48:06 PM »
Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.

But he never condemned you to hell, did he?  That is what being under pain of mortal sin is.
The Church does not condemn anyone to hell. People condemn themselves with their own actions.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #137 on: March 01, 2013, 01:48:35 PM »
The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.

Because I follow a faith that is not purely legalistic.  Not everything is an obligation.  The law is meant to guide us, not to rule us.  The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath.  We are not justified by observing the law (Gal 2:16).

Look, I don't feed my family and put a roof on their heads because it is my obligation to do so.  You can say that as a father and husband it is my obligation.  But I don't do it because it is my obligation, I do it because I love them.  Even without that obligation I will still do it, because I love them.  The same for God, in fact even more.  I don't have to be obligated to do something for God if I truly love him.  I will do what one does when one loves.  It is not because there is a consequence or because there is something forcing you to do so.  Love is not an obligation.

The fact that you do it out of love is highly commendable, but it doesn't eliminate the obligation you have to do so, even if NOT out of love, or while your love is growing and maturing.

I really do think you need to get past the word "obligation" and look more deeply.  Or, even better, just accept that the Catholic Church uses that particular term, get over it, and move on to things that will deepen your *Orthodox* spiritual life.  (Didn't I already say something like that??)
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Offline choy

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #138 on: March 01, 2013, 01:48:47 PM »
In your own church, if you miss several sundays in a row, you are excommunicated. It is taken quite seriously in the Orthodox Church as well.

Sure, but we are not threattened under pain of mortal sin.  I've never denied what you said, but there is a huge difference in practice.

Offline choy

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2013, 01:49:25 PM »
Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.

But he never condemned you to hell, did he?  That is what being under pain of mortal sin is.
The Church does not condemn anyone to hell. People condemn themselves with their own actions.

So you can get to heaven if you have mortal sin?

Offline Papist

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #140 on: March 01, 2013, 01:49:52 PM »
The favorite pastime of most ex-Catholics.

Speck meets plank, again.
I'm not the one who is looking for imaginary problems, you are sir. What's it like, hunting for big foot?

Is it really an imaginary problem?  Just see the state of the spirituality in many of your parishes.
I can find Greek Orthodox parishes with the same problems. But as for my parish, it is very traditional, and takes the sunday obligation very serious. Guess, what! It's probably one the most spiritually vibrant parishes in the diocese.  ;D Keep grasping at those straws Choy!
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Offline Papist

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2013, 01:50:39 PM »
Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.

But he never condemned you to hell, did he?  That is what being under pain of mortal sin is.
The Church does not condemn anyone to hell. People condemn themselves with their own actions.

So you can get to heaven if you have mortal sin?
The Church does not put people in a state of moral sin. People put themselves in a state of moral sin by their actions. Your question is a diversion.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #142 on: March 01, 2013, 01:52:08 PM »
Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.

If you love someone, especially God, you will continually strive to "...do what one does who loves God...", and when you fail and fall down, as you almost inevitably will, His commandments (which are not suggestions, btw) are there to remind you what you have failed at and what needs to be done.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that it is inherent in the nature of a "commandment" that one is obligated to follow it.  One is not obliged, however, to follow a suggestion.

In the Garden, God didn't threaten Adam and Eve with death if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  He just stated what the consequence of such an action would be.  There *is* a difference, you know.  I suppose one could, if one was rebellious and contrary enough, take such a statement of cause and effect as a "threat", however.

I agree, but then why is one obligated to go to Mass on Sunday "under pain of Mortal Sin"?  And again I reiterate, Mortal Sin is an excommunication (you can't receive communion) and an anathema (RC theology teaches that one cannot go to heaven, even purgatory, if one has the stain of mortal sin on one's soul).  I've said again and again, I'm not against the Church saying we have to go to Sunday Liturgy. I'm against the decree of obligating people under pain of mortal sin.



I think we got that.  And by leaving the Catholic Church and becoming Orthodox you are no longer "obligated* to attend Sunday Mass and Catholic Holy Days.  You do, I think, have a really, really, REALLY strong suggestion to attend your Orthodox Sunday and Holy Day Services, and if you miss 3 or more in a row are excommunicated (and we all know what *that* means), must confess to God before your priest, and receive absolution before you are allowed to approach the chalice once again.  Sounds kinda like an "obligation" of sorts to me.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 01:53:35 PM by J Michael »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #143 on: March 01, 2013, 01:54:27 PM »
Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.

But he never condemned you to hell, did he?  That is what being under pain of mortal sin is.

Nope, but he seemed to think that attending services is obligatory. Not just something really good and spiritually constructive but obligatory.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #144 on: March 01, 2013, 01:56:59 PM »
I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #145 on: March 01, 2013, 02:03:38 PM »
I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

Yes--modern society and disaffected Catholics.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #146 on: March 01, 2013, 04:58:01 PM »
I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html

Well, I was taught by the good nuns of St. Joseph that If you died that Sunday you decided not to go you'd be on the hot plate for sure.....
The diocesan priests in H.S. mentioned the same theme........What changed in the unchangeable church.?

Offline Papist

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #147 on: March 01, 2013, 05:09:14 PM »
I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html

Well, I was taught by the good nuns of St. Joseph that If you died that Sunday you decided not to go you'd be on the hot plate for sure.....
The diocesan priests in H.S. mentioned the same theme........What changed in the unchangeable church.?
Nothing changed. It has alway been a truth of our faith that for a sin to be mortal, one must have full consent of their will. When things are out of one's control, then that person does not have full consent of the will.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 05:09:37 PM by Papist »
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #148 on: March 01, 2013, 05:10:49 PM »
I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html

Well, I was taught by the good nuns of St. Joseph that If you died that Sunday you decided not to go you'd be on the hot plate for sure.....
The diocesan priests in H.S. mentioned the same theme........What changed in the unchangeable church.?

Hmm....dunno.  There's a difference, I think, between deciding not to go just because you don't want to and then dying, and not being able to go because you just died.  The former involves consent of the will, while the latter probably doesn't.
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Offline choy

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #149 on: March 01, 2013, 06:28:06 PM »
I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

No, the problem is there is an expectation to do something and people do it because of the expectation, not the real reason why they need to do something.  Take fasting for example.  Your daily average Roman Catholic fasts during Lent because it is required.  Ask them why and you'll have a thousand or more different answers.  I myself went through Catholic education and all that and it wasn't only until the last 5 years when I learned what fasting really is in our faith.  All the while I thought I was just impressing God by not eating meat or not eating anything at all for X amount of time.  I can start posting St. John Chrysostom quotes on fruitless fasting, but I'm assuming you know them already.

Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #150 on: March 01, 2013, 10:06:50 PM »
I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html

Well, I was taught by the good nuns of St. Joseph that If you died that Sunday you decided not to go you'd be on the hot plate for sure.....
The diocesan priests in H.S. mentioned the same theme........What changed in the unchangeable church.?

Hmm....dunno.  There's a difference, I think, between deciding not to go just because you don't want to and then dying, and not being able to go because you just died.  The former involves consent of the will, while the latter probably doesn't.

Something I was taught/read(which, looking through the lens of what's truthfully on this thread, is wrong)

Say you decide to knowing skip Mass early in the day because you didnt feel like going, but then later had an accident on Sunday and then died, you would have commited mortal sin. If my memory serves, it was also said that this was also true if you planned on going at say, a night Mass, but didnt make it because of the aformentioned death. (for clarification, this senario is the same as the above, except adding in plans to make mass later, because of lazieness earlier)

EDIT: just realized that I said the same thing as JoeS2, whoops, but leaving my post aboe regardless
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 10:08:09 PM by TheMathematician »

Offline domNoah

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #151 on: March 01, 2013, 11:41:18 PM »
I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

No, the problem is there is an expectation to do something and people do it because of the expectation, not the real reason why they need to do something.  Take fasting for example.  Your daily average Roman Catholic fasts during Lent because it is required.  Ask them why and you'll have a thousand or more different answers.  I myself went through Catholic education and all that and it wasn't only until the last 5 years when I learned what fasting really is in our faith.  All the while I thought I was just impressing God by not eating meat or not eating anything at all for X amount of time.  I can start posting St. John Chrysostom quotes on fruitless fasting, but I'm assuming you know them already.

If a person is Fasting to keep the laws of the church it is not fruitless, he may not be exercising charity of generosity towards God but he is excercising the virtue of obedience.
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Offline choy

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #152 on: March 02, 2013, 04:34:04 AM »
I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

No, the problem is there is an expectation to do something and people do it because of the expectation, not the real reason why they need to do something.  Take fasting for example.  Your daily average Roman Catholic fasts during Lent because it is required.  Ask them why and you'll have a thousand or more different answers.  I myself went through Catholic education and all that and it wasn't only until the last 5 years when I learned what fasting really is in our faith.  All the while I thought I was just impressing God by not eating meat or not eating anything at all for X amount of time.  I can start posting St. John Chrysostom quotes on fruitless fasting, but I'm assuming you know them already.

If a person is Fasting to keep the laws of the church it is not fruitless, he may not be exercising charity of generosity towards God but he is excercising the virtue of obedience.

You don't need to do fasting to exercise obedience.  If people don't know why they fast, then it is spiritually fruitless.  People on a diet fast, do they become holy by the act itself?  Pharisees follow the law to the letter and this practice were condemned by Christ because they believed that salvation can be had just by following the law strictly yet blindly.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 04:34:50 AM by choy »

Offline Papist

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #153 on: March 02, 2013, 11:18:40 AM »
I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

No, the problem is there is an expectation to do something and people do it because of the expectation, not the real reason why they need to do something.  Take fasting for example.  Your daily average Roman Catholic fasts during Lent because it is required.  Ask them why and you'll have a thousand or more different answers.  I myself went through Catholic education and all that and it wasn't only until the last 5 years when I learned what fasting really is in our faith.  All the while I thought I was just impressing God by not eating meat or not eating anything at all for X amount of time.  I can start posting St. John Chrysostom quotes on fruitless fasting, but I'm assuming you know them already.

If a person is Fasting to keep the laws of the church it is not fruitless, he may not be exercising charity of generosity towards God but he is excercising the virtue of obedience.

You don't need to do fasting to exercise obedience.  If people don't know why they fast, then it is spiritually fruitless.  People on a diet fast, do they become holy by the act itself?  Pharisees follow the law to the letter and this practice were condemned by Christ because they believed that salvation can be had just by following the law strictly yet blindly.
Obedience to the Church is virtuous. Thus, even a person's only reason for fasting during lent is obedience to the Church, that person would still grow in holiness. Another swing and a miss for you Choy.
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Offline domNoah

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Re: Sunday obligation
« Reply #154 on: March 02, 2013, 05:59:54 PM »
I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

No, the problem is there is an expectation to do something and people do it because of the expectation, not the real reason why they need to do something.  Take fasting for example.  Your daily average Roman Catholic fasts during Lent because it is required.  Ask them why and you'll have a thousand or more different answers.  I myself went through Catholic education and all that and it wasn't only until the last 5 years when I learned what fasting really is in our faith.  All the while I thought I was just impressing God by not eating meat or not eating anything at all for X amount of time.  I can start posting St. John Chrysostom quotes on fruitless fasting, but I'm assuming you know them already.

If a person is Fasting to keep the laws of the church it is not fruitless, he may not be exercising charity of generosity towards God but he is excercising the virtue of obedience.

You don't need to do fasting to exercise obedience.  If people don't know why they fast, then it is spiritually fruitless.  People on a diet fast, do they become holy by the act itself?  Pharisees follow the law to the letter and this practice were condemned by Christ because they believed that salvation can be had just by following the law strictly yet blindly.

If a person Fasts because the Church tells them too, and they believe that the Church has the power to bind and loose and that to obey the Church pleases our Lord Jesus Christ, then  I would say that even though they lack a lot of knowledge they have enough to be making acts of virtue.

The true story of the sword in the stone
http://tinyurl.com/l98rcxp

Ancient Eucharistic Miracles (East and West)
http://tinyurl.com/mnpg8og

St Anthony the Great War on demons
http://tinyurl.com/k7zcycx

http://www.alleluiaaudiobooks.com/