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Alpo
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« on: February 23, 2013, 12:07:34 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2013, 12:47:49 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2013, 01:36:29 PM »

Interesting, it seems to me though that I heard something similar from Roman Catholic relatives a long time ago. Not saying your wrong, choy, just wondering why I've heard something similar if there's not something to it somewhere.
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2013, 01:45:11 PM »

silly law.
*cough*

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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2013, 08:45:17 PM »

Simple question, simple answer: No.
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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2013, 08:54:34 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.

Oh...the "righteousness" of the newly converted  Roll Eyes.  C'mon, Choy, you should know better than that, even if you are rejecting Catholicism.  Check this out:
Quote
The moral obligation to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice on Sundays dates from the very beginning of Christianity, although it did not become a definite law of the Church until the fourth century. The meaning, the scope and the application of this law have been the subject of much research and study, not to mention considerable controversy, in the years following the Second Vatican Council. The matter can be studied from the vertical point of view, in that there exists the obligation to worship God, and also from the horizontal viewpoint, which involves all the anthropological aspects of every shade and hue. Both of these approaches are legitimate and easily lead to a solution, so long as they are integrated, and the conclusions drawn from each are given their proper place in the scale of values. But trouble begins when the proponents of one approach refuse to recognize the validity of the other. And here, as in so many other manifestations of the Church's discipline, the strength of our faith is all-important, and so is the regulating of all our acts by a truly religious conscience. Something similar happens in hospitals and schools, or in any institution with a set of rules that must be followed. Typical is a fixed schedule for meals, which people with a good appetite find no difficulty in obeying, while those with poor appetites regard it as an imposition to be avoided.

Much more here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/oblimass.htm
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2013, 08:57:43 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.

Oh...the "righteousness" of the newly converted  Roll Eyes.  C'mon, Choy, you should know better than that, even if you are rejecting Catholicism.  Check this out:
Quote
The moral obligation to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice on Sundays dates from the very beginning of Christianity, although it did not become a definite law of the Church until the fourth century. The meaning, the scope and the application of this law have been the subject of much research and study, not to mention considerable controversy, in the years following the Second Vatican Council. The matter can be studied from the vertical point of view, in that there exists the obligation to worship God, and also from the horizontal viewpoint, which involves all the anthropological aspects of every shade and hue. Both of these approaches are legitimate and easily lead to a solution, so long as they are integrated, and the conclusions drawn from each are given their proper place in the scale of values. But trouble begins when the proponents of one approach refuse to recognize the validity of the other. And here, as in so many other manifestations of the Church's discipline, the strength of our faith is all-important, and so is the regulating of all our acts by a truly religious conscience. Something similar happens in hospitals and schools, or in any institution with a set of rules that must be followed. Typical is a fixed schedule for meals, which people with a good appetite find no difficulty in obeying, while those with poor appetites regard it as an imposition to be avoided.

Much more here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/oblimass.htm

I've had that stance long before I considered converting to Orthodoxy.  So please don't accuse me of taking up that mentality just because I'm a new convert to Orthodoxy.  People don't need to be threatened under pain of Mortal Sin for missing Sunday Mass.  We had an RC priest who excellently expressed in a non-legalistic way why we need to go to Mass every Sunday.  To tell people simply that they need to go to Mass or go to hell is indeed silly.
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2013, 07:36:04 AM »

Simple question, simple answer: No.

Thank you for the answer. I wonder if you could elaborate?  IIRC according to RCC we have both valid and effacious sacraments and churches despite lack of communion with Rome. Now I could understand the RC position in case there isn't a Catholic mass/liturgy/qurbono/etc. available but in case there isn't one would assume that valid sacrament is pretty strong reason to attend Orthodox liturgy.
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2013, 09:46:17 AM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.

Oh...the "righteousness" of the newly converted  Roll Eyes.  C'mon, Choy, you should know better than that, even if you are rejecting Catholicism.  Check this out:
Quote
The moral obligation to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice on Sundays dates from the very beginning of Christianity, although it did not become a definite law of the Church until the fourth century. The meaning, the scope and the application of this law have been the subject of much research and study, not to mention considerable controversy, in the years following the Second Vatican Council. The matter can be studied from the vertical point of view, in that there exists the obligation to worship God, and also from the horizontal viewpoint, which involves all the anthropological aspects of every shade and hue. Both of these approaches are legitimate and easily lead to a solution, so long as they are integrated, and the conclusions drawn from each are given their proper place in the scale of values. But trouble begins when the proponents of one approach refuse to recognize the validity of the other. And here, as in so many other manifestations of the Church's discipline, the strength of our faith is all-important, and so is the regulating of all our acts by a truly religious conscience. Something similar happens in hospitals and schools, or in any institution with a set of rules that must be followed. Typical is a fixed schedule for meals, which people with a good appetite find no difficulty in obeying, while those with poor appetites regard it as an imposition to be avoided.

Much more here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/oblimass.htm

I've had that stance long before I considered converting to Orthodoxy.  So please don't accuse me of taking up that mentality just because I'm a new convert to Orthodoxy.  People don't need to be threatened under pain of Mortal Sin for missing Sunday Mass.  We had an RC priest who excellently expressed in a non-legalistic way why we need to go to Mass every Sunday.  To tell people simply that they need to go to Mass or go to hell is indeed silly.

J Michael is very touchy about anything even slightly critical of his communion.
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2013, 11:27:56 AM »

J Michael is very touchy about anything even slightly critical of his communion.

It probably has something to do with the fact that most of the EO-RC discussions on this forum are quite polemical
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2013, 02:24:31 PM »

Simple question, simple answer: No.

Thank you for the answer. I wonder if you could elaborate?  IIRC according to RCC we have both valid and effacious sacraments and churches despite lack of communion with Rome. Now I could understand the RC position in case there isn't a Catholic mass/liturgy/qurbono/etc. available but in case there isn't one would assume that valid sacrament is pretty strong reason to attend Orthodox liturgy.

And, from my remberance, the RCC does agree with you. However, strictly speaking to the question of does one NEED to attend, if there is no Catholic Mass/Liturgy, the answer is no, bnecause the need to attend Mass/Liturgy no longer exists. However, sattending the Orthodox Liturgy would be encouraged.
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 02:33:54 PM »

Around my neck of the woods, "Sunday obligation" is what you drop in the collection basket!  Grin

Seriously, it is no coincidence that old habits die hard. In spite of being Orthodox for most of the past century, century the sense of being "obliged" to attend Sunday liturgy remains in a vestigial form among many OCA and ACROD communities as a consequence of the present day faithful being influenced by parents and grandparents who were taught from old Greek Catholic catechisms. These two jurisdictions have the highest weekly percentages of regular church attendance among American Orthodox and a percentage higher than post Vatican Catholics.
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 04:40:18 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.

Oh...the "righteousness" of the newly converted  Roll Eyes.  C'mon, Choy, you should know better than that, even if you are rejecting Catholicism.  Check this out:
Quote
The moral obligation to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice on Sundays dates from the very beginning of Christianity, although it did not become a definite law of the Church until the fourth century. The meaning, the scope and the application of this law have been the subject of much research and study, not to mention considerable controversy, in the years following the Second Vatican Council. The matter can be studied from the vertical point of view, in that there exists the obligation to worship God, and also from the horizontal viewpoint, which involves all the anthropological aspects of every shade and hue. Both of these approaches are legitimate and easily lead to a solution, so long as they are integrated, and the conclusions drawn from each are given their proper place in the scale of values. But trouble begins when the proponents of one approach refuse to recognize the validity of the other. And here, as in so many other manifestations of the Church's discipline, the strength of our faith is all-important, and so is the regulating of all our acts by a truly religious conscience. Something similar happens in hospitals and schools, or in any institution with a set of rules that must be followed. Typical is a fixed schedule for meals, which people with a good appetite find no difficulty in obeying, while those with poor appetites regard it as an imposition to be avoided.

Much more here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/oblimass.htm

I've had that stance long before I considered converting to Orthodoxy.  So please don't accuse me of taking up that mentality just because I'm a new convert to Orthodoxy.  People don't need to be threatened under pain of Mortal Sin for missing Sunday Mass.  We had an RC priest who excellently expressed in a non-legalistic way why we need to go to Mass every Sunday.  To tell people simply that they need to go to Mass or go to hell is indeed silly.

J Michael is very touchy about anything even slightly critical of his communion.

I am?  I guess, sometimes.  I most certainly wouldn't say I'm touchy about *anything* critical.  That's taking things a bit too far.  It depends on the criticism and how it's worded.  Was my response to Choy evidence of such touchiness?  Wait...don't answer that...I might get upset  Grin Grin Grin.  Besides, as Alpo intimated, the polemics here can sometimes be a little, shall we say, uncharitable and un-Christian, which may have something to do with it.  My hide thickens, though, with each post I read  Wink.
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 04:44:21 PM »

Simple question, simple answer: No.

Thank you for the answer. I wonder if you could elaborate?  IIRC according to RCC we have both valid and effacious sacraments and churches despite lack of communion with Rome. Now I could understand the RC position in case there isn't a Catholic mass/liturgy/qurbono/etc. available but in case there isn't one would assume that valid sacrament is pretty strong reason to attend Orthodox liturgy.

And, from my remberance, the RCC does agree with you. However, strictly speaking to the question of does one NEED to attend, if there is no Catholic Mass/Liturgy, the answer is no, bnecause the need to attend Mass/Liturgy no longer exists. However, sattending the Orthodox Liturgy would be encouraged.

I, too, would encourage my Catholic brethren to attend the Orthodox DL if no Catholic liturgy, Eastern or Western, were available.  But no "obligation" is fulfilled by doing so.
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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 04:50:39 PM »

Simple question, simple answer: No.

Thank you for the answer. I wonder if you could elaborate?  IIRC according to RCC we have both valid and effacious sacraments and churches despite lack of communion with Rome. Now I could understand the RC position in case there isn't a Catholic mass/liturgy/qurbono/etc. available but in case there isn't one would assume that valid sacrament is pretty strong reason to attend Orthodox liturgy.

There's no need, really, to elaborate.  Your Sunday/Holy Day "obligation" is fulfilled only by attending a liturgy in a church in communion with Rome.  And, since no Orthodox churches are, unfortunately.....

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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2013, 04:53:19 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.

Oh...the "righteousness" of the newly converted  Roll Eyes.  C'mon, Choy, you should know better than that, even if you are rejecting Catholicism.  Check this out:
Quote
The moral obligation to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice on Sundays dates from the very beginning of Christianity, although it did not become a definite law of the Church until the fourth century. The meaning, the scope and the application of this law have been the subject of much research and study, not to mention considerable controversy, in the years following the Second Vatican Council. The matter can be studied from the vertical point of view, in that there exists the obligation to worship God, and also from the horizontal viewpoint, which involves all the anthropological aspects of every shade and hue. Both of these approaches are legitimate and easily lead to a solution, so long as they are integrated, and the conclusions drawn from each are given their proper place in the scale of values. But trouble begins when the proponents of one approach refuse to recognize the validity of the other. And here, as in so many other manifestations of the Church's discipline, the strength of our faith is all-important, and so is the regulating of all our acts by a truly religious conscience. Something similar happens in hospitals and schools, or in any institution with a set of rules that must be followed. Typical is a fixed schedule for meals, which people with a good appetite find no difficulty in obeying, while those with poor appetites regard it as an imposition to be avoided.

Much more here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/oblimass.htm

I've had that stance long before I considered converting to Orthodoxy.  So please don't accuse me of taking up that mentality just because I'm a new convert to Orthodoxy.  People don't need to be threatened under pain of Mortal Sin for missing Sunday Mass.  We had an RC priest who excellently expressed in a non-legalistic way why we need to go to Mass every Sunday.  To tell people simply that they need to go to Mass or go to hell is indeed silly.

Forgive me if I have unjustly accused you.  I could not know that that was a long-held view of yours.  I beg your pardon.
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 07:32:46 PM »

There's no need, really, to elaborate.  Your Sunday/Holy Day "obligation" is fulfilled only by attending a liturgy in a church in communion with Rome.

Sunday/Holy Day obligation (Why the quatation marks?) is not about Jesus but about communion with Rome? Huh
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 08:20:13 PM »

Forgive me if I have unjustly accused you.  I could not know that that was a long-held view of yours.  I beg your pardon.

Just go over to CAF and dig up my posts  Cheesy Grin
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 08:22:04 PM »

There's no need, really, to elaborate.  Your Sunday/Holy Day "obligation" is fulfilled only by attending a liturgy in a church in communion with Rome.

Sunday/Holy Day obligation (Why the quatation marks?) is not about Jesus but about communion with Rome? Huh

I doubt any Orthodox priest would be encouraging someone to go to a Roman Catholic Church or a Protestant Church in the event they have no access to an Orthodox one.  Of course there are prayers one can do at home.  When I was young my mom would make us say a Rosary if we can't go to Church.  Not sure if it was official RCChurch teaching at that point.
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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2013, 10:21:21 AM »

Forgive me if I have unjustly accused you.  I could not know that that was a long-held view of yours.  I beg your pardon.

Just go over to CAF and dig up my posts  Cheesy Grin

No thanks  Wink.  No need to, now.
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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2013, 10:40:59 AM »

There's no need, really, to elaborate.  Your Sunday/Holy Day "obligation" is fulfilled only by attending a liturgy in a church in communion with Rome.

Sunday/Holy Day obligation (Why the quatation marks?) is not about Jesus but about communion with Rome? Huh

RE: the bolded part in blue...not sure, really.  Seemed like the thing to do at the time.  Grin

The following sequence of thoughts/questions occurred to me at some point last night while I was considering this during a lull in the hockey game:
1-Sunday obligation
2-Why is it an obligation?
3-Why do we go to Church?
4-To praise, worship, and adore God, and partake of His Body and Blood in community?
5-Matt. 22:36-40-- "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."


6-He used the word "commandment", not the word "suggestion".

So, our obligation is to love the Lord, and we fulfill it, in part anyway, by going to Church.

Does this make any sense?  Or am I missing the mark again and/or over-simplifying?
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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2013, 07:25:36 PM »

If there isn't a Catholic parish anywhere nearby can Catholics fullfill their sunday obligation by attending Orthodox liturgy?

No.  If you can't get to a church in communion with Rome, then your obligation is dispensed.  But you surely can attend an Orthodox Liturgy because you love God, not because you are fulfilling a silly law.
You are right. Laws are silly, oh wait... no they are not.
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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2013, 07:34:35 PM »

You are right. Laws are silly, oh wait... no they are not.

Some laws are silly, some are not.  You cannot make a general statement in either direction.  Besides, Sunday Obligation as stated is silly.  Yes, we need to go to church every Sunday, everyday even.  But it shouldn't be expressed in a threattening way, which is the silly part.  God saves souls through love, not extortion.
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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2013, 08:16:15 PM »

Not only does a non-Catholic liturgy not fulfill the Sunday obligation, attendance at a non-Catholic liturgy is itself a sin.  See Mortalium Animos, para. 8, Pope Pius XI (1928).

If a Catholic cannot attend a licit, valid Liturgy of the Catholic Rite, the obligation is dispensed.  Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2181.  However, he or she is still obligated to keep the Sabbath holy, which could be done by, among other things, praying the Rosary (as choy suggested), reading the Mass for the day at home, watching on television/internet, or some other method.  See Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2183.  One should discuss this with his or her pastor, who has the power to dispense from the obligation and provide a suggested alternate method of keeping the day holy.  See Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2181.

____
choy has a good point that goes more toward whether this "law" is a good pastoral choice on the part of the Church, who is obliged to make such laws according to the Church's theology.  My guess, from my limited experience amongst the Orthodox, is that many priests in floundering parishes might like the people to feel obligated under pain of "mortal sin" to come to Divine Liturgy.  But, the whole idea really doesn't work with the theology and pastoral nature of the Orthodox Church, as choy has adequately pointed out.

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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2013, 09:23:16 PM »

Not only does a non-Catholic liturgy not fulfill the Sunday obligation, attendance at a non-Catholic liturgy is itself a sin.  See Mortalium Animos, para. 8, Pope Pius XI (1928).

If a Catholic cannot attend a licit, valid Liturgy of the Catholic Rite, the obligation is dispensed.  Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2181.  However, he or she is still obligated to keep the Sabbath holy, which could be done by, among other things, praying the Rosary (as choy suggested), reading the Mass for the day at home, watching on television/internet, or some other method.  See Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2183.  One should discuss this with his or her pastor, who has the power to dispense from the obligation and provide a suggested alternate method of keeping the day holy.  See Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2181.

____
choy has a good point that goes more toward whether this "law" is a good pastoral choice on the part of the Church, who is obliged to make such laws according to the Church's theology.  My guess, from my limited experience amongst the Orthodox, is that many priests in floundering parishes might like the people to feel obligated under pain of "mortal sin" to come to Divine Liturgy.  But, the whole idea really doesn't work with the theology and pastoral nature of the Orthodox Church, as choy has adequately pointed out.



I'm not against having a law, but how the law is stated.  In Orthodoxy a priest can deny you communion for not coming to Liturgy (I believe the canons state 3 times in a row, perhaps the priest can restrict it further).  But I doubt an Orthodox priest would outright say you're going to hell for it.

In one sense you can say they are the same since committing Mortal Sin would exclude you from communion.  But the other problem is in RC theology, Mortal Sin also condemns you to hell.  In Orthodoxy, excommunication (or exclusion from the Eucharist) isn't outright a condemnation to hell.  People can be barred from receiving as penance and all the time has already been to confession and has not committed the offence again.  If the RC law would say exclusion from the Eucharist, then it would be more in line with what the Orthodox Church does.  Being under pain of Mortal Sin means your soul is in danger, as per RC theology.
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2013, 09:24:27 PM »

I'm not against having a law, but how the law is stated.  In Orthodoxy a priest can deny you communion for not coming to Liturgy (I believe the canons state 3 times in a row, perhaps the priest can restrict it further).  But I doubt an Orthodox priest would outright say you're going to hell for it.

In one sense you can say they are the same since committing Mortal Sin would exclude you from communion.  But the other problem is in RC theology, Mortal Sin also condemns you to hell.  In Orthodoxy, excommunication (or exclusion from the Eucharist) isn't outright a condemnation to hell.  People can be barred from receiving as penance and all the time has already been to confession and has not committed the offence again.  If the RC law would say exclusion from the Eucharist, then it would be more in line with what the Orthodox Church does.  Being under pain of Mortal Sin means your soul is in danger, as per RC theology.

Good point and well-said.
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2013, 09:25:28 PM »

You are right. Laws are silly, oh wait... no they are not.

Some laws are silly, some are not.  You cannot make a general statement in either direction.  Besides, Sunday Obligation as stated is silly.  Yes, we need to go to church every Sunday, everyday even.  But it shouldn't be expressed in a threattening way, which is the silly part.  God saves souls through love, not extortion.
Yeah, it's silly when God says things like "Remember the Sabbath day, to Keep it holy" and the like. He shoul have stated it in a more non-threatening way.  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes Another disaffected Catholic...
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2013, 09:26:13 PM »

You are right. Laws are silly, oh wait... no they are not.

Some laws are silly, some are not.  You cannot make a general statement in either direction.  Besides, Sunday Obligation as stated is silly.  Yes, we need to go to church every Sunday, everyday even.  But it shouldn't be expressed in a threattening way, which is the silly part.  God saves souls through love, not extortion.
Yeah, it's silly when God says things like "Remember the Sabbath day, to Keep it holy" and the like. He shoul have stated it in a more non-threatening way.  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes Another disaffected Catholic...

Which is what Christ did Wink
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2013, 09:27:54 PM »

Another disaffected Catholic...

You probably have a longer list of complaints about the Catholic Church than I do Wink
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2013, 09:28:44 PM »

Laws...defining things...sigh...

More important are the thoughts expressed by the North American Orthodox,Roman Catholic consultation on the importance of Sunday...The Importance Of Sunday"  http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/orthodox/the-importance-of-sunday.cfm
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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2013, 09:29:45 PM »

Another disaffected Catholic...

You probably have a longer list of complaints about the Catholic Church than I do Wink
I've just never been too impressed with the silly arguments against the Catholic Church which recent defectors make. It seems like they are just looking for a reason to disagree. I'm more impressed with the substantial arguments raised by those who have been Orthodox for a long time. At least they provide something real to argue about.
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« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2013, 09:31:41 PM »

Not only does a non-Catholic liturgy not fulfill the Sunday obligation, attendance at a non-Catholic liturgy is itself a sin.  See Mortalium Animos, para. 8, Pope Pius XI (1928).

No longer applicable.  Canon Law even provides for Catholics to approach non-Catholics for sacraments in extreme circunstances.  Whether the non-Catholic minister obliges is a seperate matter.
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« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2013, 09:32:53 PM »

Another disaffected Catholic...

You probably have a longer list of complaints about the Catholic Church than I do Wink
I've just never been too impressed with the silly arguments against the Catholic Church which recent defectors make. It seems like they are just looking for a reason to disagree. I'm more impressed with the substantial arguments raised by those who have been Orthodox for a long time. At least they provide something real to argue about.

Read back, I've disagreed with that stance even before I became Eastern Catholic.  Besides the Papacy, I don't think there is anything I dislike about the Catholic Church today that I didn't dislike before I even considered converting to Orthodoxy.  You're thinking I'm making stuff up becaue I left the Catholic Church.  Have you considered that I have felt this way before which is why I left the Catholic Church?  It's a cause, not an effect.
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« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2013, 09:35:47 PM »

Not only does a non-Catholic liturgy not fulfill the Sunday obligation, attendance at a non-Catholic liturgy is itself a sin.  See Mortalium Animos, para. 8, Pope Pius XI (1928).

No longer applicable.  Canon Law even provides for Catholics to approach non-Catholics for sacraments in extreme circunstances.  Whether the non-Catholic minister obliges is a seperate matter.

As one of those recently disaffected Roman Catholics referenced above... this is precisely what made me leave: "No longer applicable."

Oops, the Church taught that for 1,900 years, but we have a better understanding now that the 1960s have come, so that rule is no longer applicable!  Ridiculous! 

______
The rest is somewhat off topic:

I question how the writings of a pope, who is the embodiment of the ordinary Magisterium can be overruled by, well, anything according to the logic of Catholic doctrine.  But, popes are also the supreme lawgiver on the earth and the sole interpreter of that law.  So, when a subsequent pope decides to rewrite Canon Law to abrogate a prior pope's writing, it is indeed abrogated.  This is true even when a pope writes something as forceful as, "So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it."  [Side note - the last little bit about "exactly the same as He instituted it" is pretty funny in light of the fact that the Catholic Church no longer teaches the very doctrine the pope is here outlining.]

Ever-changing doctrine... Which pope do you follow?  Because the one who happens to be living when you are may or may not actually be teaching in accordance with the many who came before him.  You'd be a heretic and outside the Church if 100 years ago you believed in approaching non-Catholics for the Sacraments, now you must believe that or you are a heretic.
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« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2013, 09:37:53 PM »

Another disaffected Catholic...

You probably have a longer list of complaints about the Catholic Church than I do Wink
I've just never been too impressed with the silly arguments against the Catholic Church which recent defectors make. It seems like they are just looking for a reason to disagree. I'm more impressed with the substantial arguments raised by those who have been Orthodox for a long time. At least they provide something real to argue about.

Read back, I've disagreed with that stance even before I became Eastern Catholic.  Besides the Papacy, I don't think there is anything I dislike about the Catholic Church today that I didn't dislike before I even considered converting to Orthodoxy.  You're thinking I'm making stuff up becaue I left the Catholic Church.  Have you considered that I have felt this way before which is why I left the Catholic Church?  It's a cause, not an effect.
Well, if you left because of things like "sunday obligation," I have to say I'm not terribly impressed. If you left, on the other hand, because you don't believe in Purgatory, the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, then I completely understand your decision.
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« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2013, 09:46:19 PM »

Well, if you left because of things like "sunday obligation," I have to say I'm not terribly impressed. If you left, on the other hand, because you don't believe in Purgatory, the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, then I completely understand your decision.

I didn't say I left just on this one issue.  But its one of many.  I'm just saying my objection to this has been there for a long time so your accusation that I'm just talking this way because I converted is false.  As also mentioned earlier in this thread, feel free to dig up my posts at CAF if you want proof.

Its funny because in the Philippines there is a pseudo-Christian cult that actually takes weekly attendance.  They have punchcards in the "narthex".  If you don't come one Sunday you get a visit from the minister.  If you are travelling then you need to get permission and you also need to get a signed slip or something from whatever other "temple" you attended and you need to show that back to your home "temple".  We used to laugh at this, what a silly way to get people to come on Sundays.  But then I realized, RC canon law isn't much different.  There is a spiritual gun pointed at your head.  I don't doubt that non-attendance of Liturgy at appropriate times would lead us down the wrong path and eventually to hell.  But do we have to state it plainly that way?  For people who understand the purpose of worship, they don't need any threats.  For people who don't, threats only drive them further away.
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« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2013, 09:52:00 PM »

I, too, would encourage my Catholic brethren to attend the Orthodox DL if no Catholic liturgy, Eastern or Western, were available.  But no "obligation" is fulfilled by doing so.

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......
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« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2013, 09:53:03 PM »

Not only does a non-Catholic liturgy not fulfill the Sunday obligation, attendance at a non-Catholic liturgy is itself a sin.  See Mortalium Animos, para. 8, Pope Pius XI (1928).

No longer applicable.  Canon Law even provides for Catholics to approach non-Catholics for sacraments in extreme circunstances.  Whether the non-Catholic minister obliges is a seperate matter.

As one of those recently disaffected Roman Catholics referenced above... this is precisely what made me leave: "No longer applicable."

Oops, the Church taught that for 1,900 years, but we have a better understanding now that the 1960s have come, so that rule is no longer applicable!  Ridiculous!

So you purposely posted old information knowing it is not true?  Nice...  So in essence what you are saying is "One of the reasons I am becoming Orthodox is because the Catholic Church that used to say going to an Orthodox Liturgy was a sin no longer does."  If you were being consistent you'd be going SSPX.
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« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2013, 10:00:33 PM »

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......

A Catholic's Sunday obligation is to attend a Catholic Liturgy.  For Latin Catholics that means Mass.  For Eastern Catholics that means Divine Liturgy/Vespers/Matins/Typica. If none of these are available there is no obligation.  That does not mean one could not spiritually benefit from attending an Orthodox service.
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« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2013, 10:04:32 PM »

I, too, would encourage my Catholic brethren to attend the Orthodox DL if no Catholic liturgy, Eastern or Western, were available.  But no "obligation" is fulfilled by doing so.

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?
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« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2013, 10:06:37 PM »

Mortalium Animos is true from a Catholic perspective... But, with the advent of false ecumenism, it is no longer followed. As you know, that is part of the on-going debate between the so-called Traditionalists and the hierarchy.

I tried to think like an SSPX adherent, I didn't have the wherewithal for it. I couldn't wrap my head around the idea that I had to drive 3 hours round trip, past dozens of "regular" Catholic Churches to get to the remnant of actual Catholicism that remained. In examining that, I found other inconsistencies in Catholic theological and historical arguments.  And so I ended up studying Orthodoxy. 

And, by the way, despite your snarkiness, the fact that the Catholic Church taught for 19 centuries the sinfulness of something and then suddenly changed that position is not a minor thing for a Church that, as I posted, professes to keep the faith of the Apostles in tact and undefiled.

I posted in this thread because, as a former Catholic catechist, I happen still to have a knowledge base of Catholic things, one of which was the subject matter here. 

I appreciate your concern about my being consistent, though. Believe me, the irony of my situation is not lost on me.

 :-)
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« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2013, 10:08:50 PM »

I, too, would encourage my Catholic brethren to attend the Orthodox DL if no Catholic liturgy, Eastern or Western, were available.  But no "obligation" is fulfilled by doing so.

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?

They do.  Laity can lead a Communion Service without a priest or any clergy.  It is basically a Liturgy of the Word followed by distribution of Communion a la when laity take a Communion to the homebound.
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« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2013, 10:21:14 PM »

I, too, would encourage my Catholic brethren to attend the Orthodox DL if no Catholic liturgy, Eastern or Western, were available.  But no "obligation" is fulfilled by doing so.

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?

They do.  Laity can lead a Communion Service without a priest or any clergy.  It is basically a Liturgy of the Word followed by distribution of Communion a la when laity take a Communion to the homebound.

I mean you can run something from home in the event you cannot make it to church on a given Sunday.
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« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2013, 10:22:23 PM »

A Catholic believing in "obligation" would have no reason to attend an Orthodox DL since it is an empty gesture, IOW, it does not fulfill the obligation.  IOW, a waste of time for a Catholic, why bother?  Staying home and saying Missal prayers or the rosary would be "Keeping the Sabbath as one would say, (but the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening) more proper: Lord's Day holy".......

A Catholic's Sunday obligation is to attend a Catholic Liturgy.  For Latin Catholics that means Mass.  For Eastern Catholics that means Divine Liturgy/Vespers/Matins/Typica. If none of these are available there is no obligation.  That does not mean one could not spiritually benefit from attending an Orthodox service.

How would they 'benefit' since they would be attending knowing it would be a Mortal Sin to do so?  IOW, No Obligation, No benefit. There is a confusion here........IF what you say is true, then an 'obligation' is being satisfied and No Mortal Sin is a result.......or am I not seeing this dichotomy correctly?
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« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2013, 10:23:41 PM »

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?

It does.  
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« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2013, 10:30:09 PM »

How would they 'benefit' since they would be attending knowing it would be a Mortal Sin to do so?  IOW, No Obligation, No benefit. There is a confusion here........IF what you say is true, then an 'obligation' is being satisfied and No Mortal Sin is a result.......or am I not seeing this dichotomy correctly?

First of all there is no sin in attending an Orthodox Liturgy.  Second, th obligation is to attend a Catholic Litrugy if reasonably available, if it is not no obligation.  That is a seperate issue from being able to derive personal spiritual benefit from attending an Orthodox Liturgy.
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« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2013, 10:41:20 PM »

Joe, From the Catholic perspective, it is a sin for a Catholic to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy and participate in that Liturgy. It is the sin of schism, actually. So, it would not be spiritually beneficial for a Catholic to do so.

There could, however, be a situation in which one's bishop allowed for attendance at an Orthodox Liturgy. In that case, it would be neither sinful nor spiritually harmful. 

The mindset is the issue here: if one went to an Orthodox Liturgy to "see how it works" without participating, that would not be sinful. If one did so as defiance to the Catholic Church or the Pope, it is schismatic in intent and sinful. This is why many contend, actually, that attendance at SSPX chapels is sinful - the so-called schismatic intent.
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« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2013, 11:17:31 PM »

So, let me ask again even if it involves speculation can anyone of you, my Roman Catholic friends suggest why one of my Roman Catholic relatives might have been under the impression that if they couldn't make a Roman Mass they could fulfill their obligation by going to an Orthodox Liturgy?

I'm just curious. I mean I've got this in my memory banks, I just don't remember any of the details, like who it was that told me.
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« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2013, 11:26:23 PM »

So, let me ask again even if it involves speculation can anyone of you, my Roman Catholic friends suggest why one of my Roman Catholic relatives might have been under the impression that if they couldn't make a Roman Mass they could fulfill their obligation by going to an Orthodox Liturgy?

I'm just curious. I mean I've got this in my memory banks, I just don't remember any of the details, like who it was that told me.

Misinformation?
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« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2013, 12:21:30 AM »

So, let me ask again even if it involves speculation can anyone of you, my Roman Catholic friends suggest why one of my Roman Catholic relatives might have been under the impression that if they couldn't make a Roman Mass they could fulfill their obligation by going to an Orthodox Liturgy?

I'm just curious. I mean I've got this in my memory banks, I just don't remember any of the details, like who it was that told me.

As mentioned earlier, if one can't attend a Catholic Liturgy then the obligation is dispensed.
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« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2013, 12:27:51 AM »

So, let me ask again even if it involves speculation can anyone of you, my Roman Catholic friends suggest why one of my Roman Catholic relatives might have been under the impression that if they couldn't make a Roman Mass they could fulfill their obligation by going to an Orthodox Liturgy?

I'm just curious. I mean I've got this in my memory banks, I just don't remember any of the details, like who it was that told me.

Misinformation?
If it is, it is widespread.  I'll seen/heard it said in reputable sources promoting the Vatican (the proviso is that there is no church of theirs around).
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« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2013, 12:29:31 AM »

How would they 'benefit' since they would be attending knowing it would be a Mortal Sin to do so?  IOW, No Obligation, No benefit. There is a confusion here........IF what you say is true, then an 'obligation' is being satisfied and No Mortal Sin is a result.......or am I not seeing this dichotomy correctly?

First of all there is no sin in attending an Orthodox Liturgy.  Second, th obligation is to attend a Catholic Litrugy if reasonably available, if it is not no obligation.  That is a seperate issue from being able to derive personal spiritual benefit from attending an Orthodox Liturgy.
Vatican II sort of open that can of worms by saying that its followers could commune at our chalice, something, of course, it cannot authorize.
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« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2013, 12:55:49 AM »

How would they 'benefit' since they would be attending knowing it would be a Mortal Sin to do so?  IOW, No Obligation, No benefit. There is a confusion here........IF what you say is true, then an 'obligation' is being satisfied and No Mortal Sin is a result.......or am I not seeing this dichotomy correctly?

First of all there is no sin in attending an Orthodox Liturgy.  Second, th obligation is to attend a Catholic Litrugy if reasonably available, if it is not no obligation.  That is a seperate issue from being able to derive personal spiritual benefit from attending an Orthodox Liturgy.
Vatican II sort of open that can of worms by saying that its followers could commune at our chalice, something, of course, it cannot authorize.

It said in extreme cases Catholics could approach Orthodox priests with the request, at that point it is up to the Orthodox.  This is something Rome wouldn't have allowed under any circumstances before VII.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Russia had a general accomdation while the Iron Curtain was up as the Antiochians in the Middle East still do.
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« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2013, 12:59:47 AM »

How would they 'benefit' since they would be attending knowing it would be a Mortal Sin to do so?  IOW, No Obligation, No benefit. There is a confusion here........IF what you say is true, then an 'obligation' is being satisfied and No Mortal Sin is a result.......or am I not seeing this dichotomy correctly?

First of all there is no sin in attending an Orthodox Liturgy.  Second, th obligation is to attend a Catholic Litrugy if reasonably available, if it is not no obligation.  That is a seperate issue from being able to derive personal spiritual benefit from attending an Orthodox Liturgy.
Vatican II sort of open that can of worms by saying that its followers could commune at our chalice, something, of course, it cannot authorize.

It said in extreme cases Catholics could approach Orthodox priests with the request, at that point it is up to the Orthodox.  This is something Rome wouldn't have allowed under any circumstances before VII.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Russia had a general accomdation while the Iron Curtain was up as the Antiochians in the Middle ast still do.
That sounds like the answer to what I was asking.
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« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2013, 02:40:37 PM »

So, our obligation is to love the Lord, and we fulfill it, in part anyway, by going to Church.

Does this make any sense?  Or am I missing the mark again and/or over-simplifying?

It does make sense and I have no problem with an idea of sunday obligation. However "going to Church" is the part is the part I don't understand since we are indeed a church and we do have sacraments according to RCC. However I could understand the logic if RCC said that our churches and sacraments are illegitimate. Does it?
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« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2013, 02:46:14 PM »

So, our obligation is to love the Lord, and we fulfill it, in part anyway, by going to Church.

Does this make any sense?  Or am I missing the mark again and/or over-simplifying?

It does make sense and I have no problem with an idea of sunday obligation. However "going to Church" is the part is the part I don't understand since we are indeed a church and we do have sacraments according to RCC. However I could understand the logic if RCC said that our churches and sacraments are illegitimate. Does it?
Afaik, the Catholic Church does not consider Orthodox "churches and sacraments" to be illegitimate.  But that's a whole other can of worms, especially as the OP was concerning the Catholic Sunday obligation.

What don't you get about "going to Church"?  Putting it in the simplest possible terms, according to us, we're the Church.  According to you, you're the Church.  We fulfill our obligation in our Church--you know, THE Church.  You fulfill your Sunday non-obligation (Grin), in *your* Church--you know, THE Church.  Grin  See how simple it all is  Roll Eyes?
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« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2013, 02:52:01 PM »

So, our obligation is to love the Lord, and we fulfill it, in part anyway, by going to Church.

Does this make any sense?  Or am I missing the mark again and/or over-simplifying?

It does make sense and I have no problem with an idea of sunday obligation. However "going to Church" is the part is the part I don't understand since we are indeed a church and we do have sacraments according to RCC. However I could understand the logic if RCC said that our churches and sacraments are illegitimate. Does it?
Afaik, the Catholic Church does not consider Orthodox "churches and sacraments" to be illegitimate.  But that's a whole other can of worms, especially as the OP was concerning the Catholic Sunday obligation.

Right.  Although there is something interesting I dug up about this.  In the CIC (Code of Canon Law) which applies to Roman Catholics (or Latin Catholics, whatever floats your boat), it is explicitly clear that the Sunday obligation is fulfilled by going to a "Mass (ie. Eucharistic Liturgy) or any Catholic Rite".  In the CCEO which covers Eastern Catholics, there is no such wording.  The CCEO says the obligation is fulfilled by attending any one of the Divine Praises on the eve or day itself of the Day of Obligation.  That is, Vespers and Matins are enough to fulfill one's obligation, not necessarily a Eucharistic Liturgy such as the Divine Liturgy.  And the biggest omission in the CCEO is that there is no "of a Catholic Rite" clause.  Which opens the possibility that Eastern Catholics can fulfill their Sunday Obligation in an Orthodox Church, but not one who is canonically ascribed to the Roman/Latin Catholic Church.
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« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2013, 02:57:46 PM »

So, our obligation is to love the Lord, and we fulfill it, in part anyway, by going to Church.

Does this make any sense?  Or am I missing the mark again and/or over-simplifying?

It does make sense and I have no problem with an idea of sunday obligation. However "going to Church" is the part is the part I don't understand since we are indeed a church and we do have sacraments according to RCC. However I could understand the logic if RCC said that our churches and sacraments are illegitimate. Does it?
Afaik, the Catholic Church does not consider Orthodox "churches and sacraments" to be illegitimate.  But that's a whole other can of worms, especially as the OP was concerning the Catholic Sunday obligation.

Right.  Although there is something interesting I dug up about this.  In the CIC (Code of Canon Law) which applies to Roman Catholics (or Latin Catholics, whatever floats your boat), it is explicitly clear that the Sunday obligation is fulfilled by going to a "Mass (ie. Eucharistic Liturgy) or any Catholic Rite".  In the CCEO which covers Eastern Catholics, there is no such wording.  The CCEO says the obligation is fulfilled by attending any one of the Divine Praises on the eve or day itself of the Day of Obligation.  That is, Vespers and Matins are enough to fulfill one's obligation, not necessarily a Eucharistic Liturgy such as the Divine Liturgy.  And the biggest omission in the CCEO is that there is no "of a Catholic Rite" clause.  Which opens the possibility that Eastern Catholics can fulfill their Sunday Obligation in an Orthodox Church, but not one who is canonically ascribed to the Roman/Latin Catholic Church.

Interesting--I've never come across that.  Do you have a link to that?  I'd be willing to bet that any EC priest would say that the obligation is fulfilled by attendance at either a Mass or a Divine Liturgy, and that Vespers and Matins do not count towards the obligation.  But...I could be wrong  Grin.
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« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2013, 02:58:53 PM »

What don't you get about "going to Church"?  Putting it in the simplest possible terms, according to us, we're the Church.  According to you, you're the Church.  We fulfill our obligation in our Church--you know, THE Church.  You fulfill your Sunday non-obligation (Grin), in *your* Church--you know, THE Church.  Grin  See how simple it all is  Roll Eyes?

But if a Catholic attends Orthodox liturgy he attends valid and legitimate eucharistic service. I don't understand why it doesn't qualify as "going to Church".
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« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2013, 03:07:39 PM »

What don't you get about "going to Church"?  Putting it in the simplest possible terms, according to us, we're the Church.  According to you, you're the Church.  We fulfill our obligation in our Church--you know, THE Church.  You fulfill your Sunday non-obligation (Grin), in *your* Church--you know, THE Church.  Grin  See how simple it all is  Roll Eyes?

But if a Catholic attends Orthodox liturgy he attends valid and legitimate eucharistic service. I don't understand why it doesn't qualify as "going to Church".

Well....oh boy....since, at least for a Roman Catholic, it's not a Mass or a Catholic Rite...it wouldn't count.  For an Eastern Catholic, Choy has (perhaps) just thrown a monkey wrench into the works by what he said above.  *Maybe*, if he is correct in his understanding of the CCEO, and his reference is accurate, maybe he is right.  You've now reached the limits of my knowledge about this. Grin  That didn't take long, did it Grin Grin?
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« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2013, 03:32:09 PM »

An unfortunate side effect of making church attendance an "obligation" is the migration of certain RC holy days to Sundays in many countries.  It's happened with Epiphany and Ascension.  And certain other holy days of obligation lose the obligation if they fall on a Saturday or Monday.  This tends to compartmentalize religion to Sunday mornings (and Saturday evenings, of course!).
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« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2013, 03:37:08 PM »

What don't you get about "going to Church"?  Putting it in the simplest possible terms, according to us, we're the Church.  According to you, you're the Church.  We fulfill our obligation in our Church--you know, THE Church.  You fulfill your Sunday non-obligation (Grin), in *your* Church--you know, THE Church.  Grin  See how simple it all is  Roll Eyes?

But if a Catholic attends Orthodox liturgy he attends valid and legitimate eucharistic service. I don't understand why it doesn't qualify as "going to Church".

Well....oh boy....since, at least for a Roman Catholic, it's not a Mass or a Catholic Rite...it wouldn't count.  For an Eastern Catholic, Choy has (perhaps) just thrown a monkey wrench into the works by what he said above.  *Maybe*, if he is correct in his understanding of the CCEO, and his reference is accurate, maybe he is right.  You've now reached the limits of my knowledge about this. Grin  That didn't take long, did it Grin Grin?

here are the canons

Quote
Canon 881 - §1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
 §2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
 §3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.
 §4. The Christian faithful should abstain from those labors or business matters which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's day, or to the proper relaxation of mind and body.
http://www.jgray.org/codes/cceo90eng.html

(a link link i found, for comparision purposes if wished http://www.intratext.com/IXT/LAT0758/)
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« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2013, 03:38:03 PM »

An unfortunate side effect of making church attendance an "obligation" is the migration of certain RC holy days to Sundays in many countries.  It's happened with Epiphany and Ascension.  And certain other holy days of obligation lose the obligation if they fall on a Saturday or Monday.  This tends to compartmentalize religion to Sunday mornings (and Saturday evenings, of course!).

I'm not sure that you're correct about that.  You could be.  But, since the "obligation" has been around, as posted above, for hundred of years, I'd think that the migration you speak of, and it is unfortunate, may be caused by something else.  I don't *know* and I cannot *prove* it, so maybe I'm just talking out my posterior inferior orifice--again  Wink.
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« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2013, 03:45:53 PM »

What don't you get about "going to Church"?  Putting it in the simplest possible terms, according to us, we're the Church.  According to you, you're the Church.  We fulfill our obligation in our Church--you know, THE Church.  You fulfill your Sunday non-obligation (Grin), in *your* Church--you know, THE Church.  Grin  See how simple it all is  Roll Eyes?

But if a Catholic attends Orthodox liturgy he attends valid and legitimate eucharistic service. I don't understand why it doesn't qualify as "going to Church".

Well....oh boy....since, at least for a Roman Catholic, it's not a Mass or a Catholic Rite...it wouldn't count.  For an Eastern Catholic, Choy has (perhaps) just thrown a monkey wrench into the works by what he said above.  *Maybe*, if he is correct in his understanding of the CCEO, and his reference is accurate, maybe he is right.  You've now reached the limits of my knowledge about this. Grin  That didn't take long, did it Grin Grin?

here are the canons

Quote
Canon 881 - §1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
 §2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
 §3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.
 §4. The Christian faithful should abstain from those labors or business matters which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's day, or to the proper relaxation of mind and body.
http://www.jgray.org/codes/cceo90eng.html

(a link link i found, for comparision purposes if wished http://www.intratext.com/IXT/LAT0758/)

Thanks!

Seems that a key phrase in there might be "...according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris...".  And I wonder if "divine praises" are the same in all the sui iuris churches?  According to one site I found, in the Melkite Church they consist of "Vespers, Little Compline, Matins and one of the Little Hours as they are contained in the horologhion (The Book of Hours)." http://byzantineramblings.blogspot.com/2007/01/divine-praises-what-it-is-and-how-to.html
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« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2013, 04:00:00 PM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.
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« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2013, 04:26:35 PM »

So, our obligation is to love the Lord, and we fulfill it, in part anyway, by going to Church.

Does this make any sense?  Or am I missing the mark again and/or over-simplifying?

It does make sense and I have no problem with an idea of sunday obligation. However "going to Church" is the part is the part I don't understand since we are indeed a church and we do have sacraments according to RCC. However I could understand the logic if RCC said that our churches and sacraments are illegitimate. Does it?
Afaik, the Catholic Church does not consider Orthodox "churches and sacraments" to be illegitimate.  But that's a whole other can of worms, especially as the OP was concerning the Catholic Sunday obligation.

Right.  Although there is something interesting I dug up about this.  In the CIC (Code of Canon Law) which applies to Roman Catholics (or Latin Catholics, whatever floats your boat), it is explicitly clear that the Sunday obligation is fulfilled by going to a "Mass (ie. Eucharistic Liturgy) or any Catholic Rite".  In the CCEO which covers Eastern Catholics, there is no such wording.  The CCEO says the obligation is fulfilled by attending any one of the Divine Praises on the eve or day itself of the Day of Obligation.  That is, Vespers and Matins are enough to fulfill one's obligation, not necessarily a Eucharistic Liturgy such as the Divine Liturgy.  And the biggest omission in the CCEO is that there is no "of a Catholic Rite" clause.  Which opens the possibility that Eastern Catholics can fulfill their Sunday Obligation in an Orthodox Church, but not one who is canonically ascribed to the Roman/Latin Catholic Church.

Interesting--I've never come across that.  Do you have a link to that?  I'd be willing to bet that any EC priest would say that the obligation is fulfilled by attendance at either a Mass or a Divine Liturgy, and that Vespers and Matins do not count towards the obligation.  But...I could be wrong  Grin.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_POH.HTM
Canon 881

1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.

2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.

3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.

4. The Christian faithful should abstain from those labors or business matters which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's day, or to the proper relaxation of mind and body.



As opposed to:


Can.  1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.


And this is the provision about going to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy if there is no Catholic parish within reasonable distance:

§2. If participation in the eucharistic celebration becomes impossible because of the absence of a sacred minister or for another grave cause, it is strongly recommended that the faithful take part in a liturgy of the word if such a liturgy is celebrated in a parish church or other sacred place according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop or that they devote themselves to prayer for a suitable time alone, as a family, or, as the occasion permits, in groups of families.


So nowhere does it say you are obliged to do it, but it is strongly recommended.
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« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2013, 04:27:30 PM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.

Sunday Obligation isn't wrong, except with how it is worded in the Catholic Church.  Why do people need to be threattened with "mortal sin"?
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« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2013, 05:00:06 PM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.

Sunday Obligation isn't wrong, except with how it is worded in the Catholic Church.  Why do people need to be threattened with "mortal sin"?

Maybe you just need to see past the terminology and what seems to me to be an image that you may have constructed of a big bad Church wielding a club over the faithful threatening them with eternal damnation, and look more deeply into the whole concept of sin and the Ten Commandments and Christ's Commandments, sin and reconciliation as discussed by the Catholic Church.  In Roman Catholic parlance all sin is, as you know quite well, either mortal or venial, and mortal sin (and lists of those are easy enough to find), if unrepented of has dire consequences.  But...since you've already left the Catholic Church...it's just academic for you, anyway.  Luckily, in the Eastern Catholic Church, while sin is still sometimes referred to as "mortal" or "venial", we have a much more, well, Eastern (as in Eastern Orthodox) view of it all.

Or...you could just get over it and move on.  Wink  (And I do not mean that nastily or with snark!)
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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2013, 05:12:35 PM »

So, our obligation is to love the Lord, and we fulfill it, in part anyway, by going to Church.

Does this make any sense?  Or am I missing the mark again and/or over-simplifying?

It does make sense and I have no problem with an idea of sunday obligation. However "going to Church" is the part is the part I don't understand since we are indeed a church and we do have sacraments according to RCC. However I could understand the logic if RCC said that our churches and sacraments are illegitimate. Does it?
Afaik, the Catholic Church does not consider Orthodox "churches and sacraments" to be illegitimate.  But that's a whole other can of worms, especially as the OP was concerning the Catholic Sunday obligation.

Right.  Although there is something interesting I dug up about this.  In the CIC (Code of Canon Law) which applies to Roman Catholics (or Latin Catholics, whatever floats your boat), it is explicitly clear that the Sunday obligation is fulfilled by going to a "Mass (ie. Eucharistic Liturgy) or any Catholic Rite".  In the CCEO which covers Eastern Catholics, there is no such wording.  The CCEO says the obligation is fulfilled by attending any one of the Divine Praises on the eve or day itself of the Day of Obligation.  That is, Vespers and Matins are enough to fulfill one's obligation, not necessarily a Eucharistic Liturgy such as the Divine Liturgy.  And the biggest omission in the CCEO is that there is no "of a Catholic Rite" clause.  Which opens the possibility that Eastern Catholics can fulfill their Sunday Obligation in an Orthodox Church, but not one who is canonically ascribed to the Roman/Latin Catholic Church.

Interesting--I've never come across that.  Do you have a link to that?  I'd be willing to bet that any EC priest would say that the obligation is fulfilled by attendance at either a Mass or a Divine Liturgy, and that Vespers and Matins do not count towards the obligation.  But...I could be wrong  Grin.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_POH.HTM
Canon 881

1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.

2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.

3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.

4. The Christian faithful should abstain from those labors or business matters which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's day, or to the proper relaxation of mind and body.



As opposed to:


Can.  1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.


And this is the provision about going to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy if there is no Catholic parish within reasonable distance:

§2. If participation in the eucharistic celebration becomes impossible because of the absence of a sacred minister or for another grave cause, it is strongly recommended that the faithful take part in a liturgy of the word if such a liturgy is celebrated in a parish church or other sacred place according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop or that they devote themselves to prayer for a suitable time alone, as a family, or, as the occasion permits, in groups of families.


So nowhere does it say you are obliged to do it, but it is strongly recommended.

Just want to point out that the Canon 881 you cite is from the CCEO, while the Canon 1248 you reference below it is from the (Roman Catholic) Code of Canon Law-- http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P4N.HTM .  But I can't see that it says anything about the Orthodox Church.  Note that it says, "...parish church or other sacred place according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop..."  I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that "parish church" refers to a Catholic church, and the diocesan bishop is a Catholic bishop who is doing the prescripting (is that a word?) about it.  So it seems to me that it's referring to people/entities within the Catholic communion.  I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong about that, though.  Wink
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« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2013, 05:52:03 PM »

Just want to point out that the Canon 881 you cite is from the CCEO, while the Canon 1248 you reference below it is from the (Roman Catholic) Code of Canon Law-- http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P4N.HTM .  But I can't see that it says anything about the Orthodox Church.  Note that it says, "...parish church or other sacred place according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop..."  I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that "parish church" refers to a Catholic church, and the diocesan bishop is a Catholic bishop who is doing the prescripting (is that a word?) about it.  So it seems to me that it's referring to people/entities within the Catholic communion.  I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong about that, though.  Wink

Ah, but you forget that it was intentionally left open-ended because there are intercommunion agreements with non-Catholic Churches in certain areas around the world.  Like the Chaldean-Assyrian intercommunion in the Middle East, you can search the Vatican website for the document on that.

So if you are EC and your bishops says you can go to an Orthodox parish for your "Sunday Obligation", then you can.  Of course receiving the Sacraments would be another question.
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« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2013, 06:07:08 PM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.

Sunday Obligation isn't wrong, except with how it is worded in the Catholic Church.  Why do people need to be threattened with "mortal sin"?
Why does the Chriatian faith in general threaten us with hell? It's because there are consequences to sin.
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« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2013, 06:35:39 PM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.

Sunday Obligation isn't wrong, except with how it is worded in the Catholic Church.  Why do people need to be threattened with "mortal sin"?
Why does the Chriatian faith in general threaten us with hell? It's because there are consequences to sin.

You know what started my path to Orthodoxy?  When somebody explained to me why I should love God without the "or else you'll go to hell" bit.  Not that hell was ever denied nor not that the fact that it is indeed a consequence.  Our faith shouldn't be about scaring us into submission.  Christianity isn't about going to hell, its about going to heaven.  So why should I constantly be threattened with hell?  If someone is not attending Sunday Liturgy regularly, then there must be an underlying issue.  Shouldn't that be addressed instead of an impersonal, "I don't care what your issues are but you are going to hell."?
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« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2013, 06:57:32 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
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« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2013, 06:57:52 PM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.

Sunday Obligation isn't wrong, except with how it is worded in the Catholic Church.  Why do people need to be threattened with "mortal sin"?

Remember in pagan Rome it was mandatory...an obligation to venerate certain pagan gods.  The pagan religion was so ingrained into Roman society.  Think of our civic rituals.  Their civic rituals were ingrained in paganism.  This is one of the reasons early Christians were easy to spot.  They wouldn't pray or participate in pagan rituals that were the civic rituals.  They wouldn't fulfill the obligatory veneration of the gods.  They wouldn't participate in say the rituals that were done before say a race (think of a group of people refusing to participate in the USA or Canadian national anthem before a hockey game).
There is a lot of pre-Christian notions ingrained into Christian worship.  Religions borrow from the ones they replace.  I just hope our Orthodoxy doesn't incorporate the secularism in today's society.  There is a notion to separate home life and church life.  This is a hallmark of protestanism and increasingly Catholicism and even more so becoming a part of Orthodoxy.  
Things that are deemed "ethnic" are actually ways of integrating the worship of the church into the home life.  What's ethnic about north america? The compartmentalization of religion and home life/life outside church.
I think it is hard to grasp that some of our rules are 2000 years old OR older and are hard to interpret into today's secular world.  Such is the notion of "obligations on sunday."  Again there are major differences in the Western spirituality versus Eastern.
The same result of the obligation on sunday the Catholics teach is the same result that you excommunicate yourself from the Orthodox communion if you miss three Sundays in a row.  You have to go to confession to receive commuion; translate into western terms... you are excommunicated and the priest has to re-receive you into the church through confession.  
So both sides have rules.  It's just how you present them.  And in today's individualistic society of "me me me, don't tell me what to do" this notion of a mortal sin to miss mass on Sunday just doesn't sit well with that attitude.  Re-adjust it; look come to mass every sunday, if you miss please come to confession.

Also a major difference is that in many of our Orthodox parishes the priest knows everyone.  It is hard to approach the chalice when you know you can't and especially since the priest knows where you sit or has told you not to take communion for a period of time.
Whereas in the Catholic churches communion is seen as a right, a personal experience.  Not so much in the Greek Catholic parishes.  
In the Orthodox church the chalice is what unites us.  Believe in the Deposit of Faith and share communion, or Jesus.  We are brothers and sisters because we share in the holy gifts.  We are taught that if we have a problem with someone in our communion then we don't take communion because it effects the community.
It's hard to rationalize or understand if you have never lived it.

But I know from experience the Roman Catholics teach communion very solidly but they don't ask questions they leave the individual to decide if he wants to commune.  Sure I think they do ban some from communion but it is for specific rule violations.  It is a more individual experience.  And we have seen examples in recent times of priests who have turned down people at the communion rail (so to speak).  It didn't fair well for the priest.

So we are talking apples and apples here... one is a granny smith and the other is a red apple.  Both are apples just different flavours.  Let's not get caught up in all in the language.
Let's face it; Orthodox and Catholics speak sometimes an entirely different language on faith.
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« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2013, 06:59:19 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.

Is it not humility to be told to come to church and obey?  The church is a spiritual hospital and many have been healed by attending even if they don't want to but are instructed to.
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« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2013, 08:54:39 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.

Is it not humility to be told to come to church and obey?  The church is a spiritual hospital and many have been healed by attending even if they don't want to but are instructed to.


I think this is a source of a lot of problems of all the Churches today.  When we ask people to just do something without understanding what they are doing.  So many people are under catechized.  Like most people I'm one of those who for a long time has just gone through the motions.  I go to church because that is how I was brought up and I know my mom will be disappointed if I didn't.  I don't know how that will save me.  We don't need to turn people into theologians but there must be at least a basic understanding and appreciation of the faith.  Which today is sorely lacking.  And that is not addressed by laws that not only lacks the explanation, but comes of as threattening.

I've had a lengthy argument with an RC priest over at CAF I think a year or two ago about the Eucharistic fast.  To him he doesn't care about anything beyond the law.  The law says medicine does not break the fast, so it doesn't matter what you take as long as it can be counted medicine.  My argument was for the spirit of the law.  I asked him if it was okay for me to take Viagra (which is a prescription drug) just before I come up for Communion.  I hope I don't have to explain what the problem here is.  I can understand if someone needs to take their heart medication on the dot everyday, and it happens that appointed time is 10 minutes before Communion time.  But if it is medication that can be put off for later, why not put it off for later?

Like I said, I'm not against having laws, but the laws need to make sense and need to help accomplish the objective.  Just becaue we want people coming to Liturgy every Sunday because it is a spiritual necessity, it doesn't mean we can say it however we want just as long as they come on Sunday.
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« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2013, 10:13:50 PM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.
I thought that was the fourth, but at any rate...

The command is to remember and to keep holy. That commandment does not say anything about going to church.  This is based on extrapolation from other things.  From an Orthodox Jewish perspective, since this commandment was in the OT, Jews are required to pray, and that prayer can be done with family or with a minyan, or alone though this is not as good as together, and some prayers can only be said together in a community.  As I see it, and feel free to correct me, this obligation comes from one of a couple things:

It is healthy to attend church, and thus not doing it must condemn one to hell (which is extreme).

Not attending is neglecting the opportunity for grace through sacraments that is available to us, and thus can be seen as rejecting salvation or something (which does not hold for those who are excommunicated).

Rejecting fellowship (Do not neglect the fellowship of the saints is sometimes applied at least in a Protestant context to mean we Christians should have fellowship and this is not necessarily limited to a church service or setting or necessarily participated in by those at a service).

Taking the do this as often as possible to an odd end with regard to the Lord's Supper and communion.

Or most likely: It is law that was created to give guidance on how Christians should live that is sometimes taught as the law with a negative connotation of fear and punishment rather than as the instruction to seek the good of one's soul and develop a love response to Christ for which I imagine this was originally to be an impetus for.
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« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2013, 10:40:11 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.

Is it not humility to be told to come to church and obey?  The church is a spiritual hospital and many have been healed by attending even if they don't want to but are instructed to.
I think it is more humble to not need to be told that one must attend church but to come out a recognition of our status.
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« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2013, 10:48:33 AM »

Just want to point out that the Canon 881 you cite is from the CCEO, while the Canon 1248 you reference below it is from the (Roman Catholic) Code of Canon Law-- http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P4N.HTM .  But I can't see that it says anything about the Orthodox Church.  Note that it says, "...parish church or other sacred place according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop..."  I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that "parish church" refers to a Catholic church, and the diocesan bishop is a Catholic bishop who is doing the prescripting (is that a word?) about it.  So it seems to me that it's referring to people/entities within the Catholic communion.  I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong about that, though.  Wink

Ah, but you forget that it was intentionally left open-ended because there are intercommunion agreements with non-Catholic Churches in certain areas around the world.  Like the Chaldean-Assyrian intercommunion in the Middle East, you can search the Vatican website for the document on that.

So if you are EC and your bishops says you can go to an Orthodox parish for your "Sunday Obligation", then you can.  Of course receiving the Sacraments would be another question.

I'll try to check that out with the Bishop  Wink

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« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2013, 10:56:58 AM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.

Sunday Obligation isn't wrong, except with how it is worded in the Catholic Church.  Why do people need to be threattened with "mortal sin"?

Remember in pagan Rome it was mandatory...an obligation to venerate certain pagan gods.  The pagan religion was so ingrained into Roman society.  Think of our civic rituals.  Their civic rituals were ingrained in paganism.  This is one of the reasons early Christians were easy to spot.  They wouldn't pray or participate in pagan rituals that were the civic rituals.  They wouldn't fulfill the obligatory veneration of the gods.  They wouldn't participate in say the rituals that were done before say a race (think of a group of people refusing to participate in the USA or Canadian national anthem before a hockey game).
There is a lot of pre-Christian notions ingrained into Christian worship.  Religions borrow from the ones they replace.  I just hope our Orthodoxy doesn't incorporate the secularism in today's society.  There is a notion to separate home life and church life.  This is a hallmark of protestanism and increasingly Catholicism and even more so becoming a part of Orthodoxy.  
Things that are deemed "ethnic" are actually ways of integrating the worship of the church into the home life.  What's ethnic about north america? The compartmentalization of religion and home life/life outside church.
I think it is hard to grasp that some of our rules are 2000 years old OR older and are hard to interpret into today's secular world.  Such is the notion of "obligations on sunday."  Again there are major differences in the Western spirituality versus Eastern.
The same result of the obligation on sunday the Catholics teach is the same result that you excommunicate yourself from the Orthodox communion if you miss three Sundays in a row.  You have to go to confession to receive commuion; translate into western terms... you are excommunicated and the priest has to re-receive you into the church through confession.  
So both sides have rules.  It's just how you present them.  And in today's individualistic society of "me me me, don't tell me what to do" this notion of a mortal sin to miss mass on Sunday just doesn't sit well with that attitude.  Re-adjust it; look come to mass every sunday, if you miss please come to confession.

Also a major difference is that in many of our Orthodox parishes the priest knows everyone.  It is hard to approach the chalice when you know you can't and especially since the priest knows where you sit or has told you not to take communion for a period of time.
Whereas in the Catholic churches communion is seen as a right, a personal experience.  Not so much in the Greek Catholic parishes.  
In the Orthodox church the chalice is what unites us.  Believe in the Deposit of Faith and share communion, or Jesus.  We are brothers and sisters because we share in the holy gifts.  We are taught that if we have a problem with someone in our communion then we don't take communion because it effects the community.
It's hard to rationalize or understand if you have never lived it.

But I know from experience the Roman Catholics teach communion very solidly but they don't ask questions they leave the individual to decide if he wants to commune.  Sure I think they do ban some from communion but it is for specific rule violations.  It is a more individual experience.  And we have seen examples in recent times of priests who have turned down people at the communion rail (so to speak).  It didn't fair well for the priest.

So we are talking apples and apples here... one is a granny smith and the other is a red apple.  Both are apples just different flavours.  Let's not get caught up in all in the language.
Let's face it; Orthodox and Catholics speak sometimes an entirely different language on faith.

Nicely said!
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« Reply #80 on: February 27, 2013, 11:03:12 AM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.

Is it not humility to be told to come to church and obey?  The church is a spiritual hospital and many have been healed by attending even if they don't want to but are instructed to.
I think it is more humble to not need to be told that one must attend church but to come out a recognition of our status.

Of course it is, but unfortunately not all of us are always so humble, myself included. Sad
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« Reply #81 on: February 27, 2013, 04:07:52 PM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.

Sunday Obligation isn't wrong, except with how it is worded in the Catholic Church.  Why do people need to be threattened with "mortal sin"?

Remember in pagan Rome it was mandatory...an obligation to venerate certain pagan gods.  The pagan religion was so ingrained into Roman society.  Think of our civic rituals.  Their civic rituals were ingrained in paganism.  This is one of the reasons early Christians were easy to spot.  They wouldn't pray or participate in pagan rituals that were the civic rituals.  They wouldn't fulfill the obligatory veneration of the gods.  They wouldn't participate in say the rituals that were done before say a race (think of a group of people refusing to participate in the USA or Canadian national anthem before a hockey game).
There is a lot of pre-Christian notions ingrained into Christian worship.  Religions borrow from the ones they replace.  I just hope our Orthodoxy doesn't incorporate the secularism in today's society.  There is a notion to separate home life and church life.  This is a hallmark of protestanism and increasingly Catholicism and even more so becoming a part of Orthodoxy.  
Things that are deemed "ethnic" are actually ways of integrating the worship of the church into the home life.  What's ethnic about north america? The compartmentalization of religion and home life/life outside church.
I think it is hard to grasp that some of our rules are 2000 years old OR older and are hard to interpret into today's secular world.  Such is the notion of "obligations on sunday."  Again there are major differences in the Western spirituality versus Eastern.
The same result of the obligation on sunday the Catholics teach is the same result that you excommunicate yourself from the Orthodox communion if you miss three Sundays in a row.  You have to go to confession to receive commuion; translate into western terms... you are excommunicated and the priest has to re-receive you into the church through confession.  
So both sides have rules.  It's just how you present them.  And in today's individualistic society of "me me me, don't tell me what to do" this notion of a mortal sin to miss mass on Sunday just doesn't sit well with that attitude.  Re-adjust it; look come to mass every sunday, if you miss please come to confession.

Also a major difference is that in many of our Orthodox parishes the priest knows everyone.  It is hard to approach the chalice when you know you can't and especially since the priest knows where you sit or has told you not to take communion for a period of time.
Whereas in the Catholic churches communion is seen as a right, a personal experience.  Not so much in the Greek Catholic parishes.  
In the Orthodox church the chalice is what unites us.  Believe in the Deposit of Faith and share communion, or Jesus.  We are brothers and sisters because we share in the holy gifts.  We are taught that if we have a problem with someone in our communion then we don't take communion because it effects the community.
It's hard to rationalize or understand if you have never lived it.

But I know from experience the Roman Catholics teach communion very solidly but they don't ask questions they leave the individual to decide if he wants to commune.  Sure I think they do ban some from communion but it is for specific rule violations.  It is a more individual experience.  And we have seen examples in recent times of priests who have turned down people at the communion rail (so to speak).  It didn't fair well for the priest.

So we are talking apples and apples here... one is a granny smith and the other is a red apple.  Both are apples just different flavours.  Let's not get caught up in all in the language.
Let's face it; Orthodox and Catholics speak sometimes an entirely different language on faith.

+1 !!
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« Reply #82 on: February 27, 2013, 04:09:17 PM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.

Sunday Obligation isn't wrong, except with how it is worded in the Catholic Church.  Why do people need to be threattened with "mortal sin"?
Why does the Chriatian faith in general threaten us with hell? It's because there are consequences to sin.
Exactly. I've heard (though correct me if I'm wrong) that Christ actually warned about hell more than He talked about heaven in the New Testament.
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« Reply #83 on: February 27, 2013, 06:04:33 PM »

Joe, From the Catholic perspective, it is a sin for a Catholic to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy and participate in that Liturgy. It is the sin of schism, actually. So, it would not be spiritually beneficial for a Catholic to do so.

There could, however, be a situation in which one's bishop allowed for attendance at an Orthodox Liturgy. In that case, it would be neither sinful nor spiritually harmful. 

The mindset is the issue here: if one went to an Orthodox Liturgy to "see how it works" without participating, that would not be sinful. If one did so as defiance to the Catholic Church or the Pope, it is schismatic in intent and sinful. This is why many contend, actually, that attendance at SSPX chapels is sinful - the so-called schismatic intent.

Participation though has different interpretations.  For the Orthodox, joining in the "Amen" is participation.  For the Roman Catholic, participation means receiving the Sacraments, or being received as a Catechumen.  Participating in prayers including the "Amen", as far as I know, isn't considered participation.  I haven't heard any Catholic theologian say anything against saying "Amen" even when praying with Protestants.  The Orthodox are clear that we should not say "Amen" to prayers that have questionable theology (or when in doubt, just don't).
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« Reply #84 on: February 27, 2013, 06:05:54 PM »

Exactly. I've heard (though correct me if I'm wrong) that Christ actually warned about hell more than He talked about heaven in the New Testament.

Warning about hell and threattening it are two different things.  Telling someone that they should be careful and if not they could fall over the bridge is different from telling someone you'll throw them over the bridge.
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« Reply #85 on: February 27, 2013, 06:06:23 PM »

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?

It does.  

Sorry, I'm talking about RCs.
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« Reply #86 on: February 27, 2013, 06:44:45 PM »



Of course it is, but unfortunately not all of us are always so humble, myself included. Sad

Im humble and I am proud of it........ laugh
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« Reply #87 on: February 27, 2013, 06:46:46 PM »



Of course it is, but unfortunately not all of us are always so humble, myself included. Sad

Im humble and I am proud of it........ laugh

Nu-uh!  I am humber than you are!

 Grin
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« Reply #88 on: February 27, 2013, 08:06:10 PM »

Many people act as if the "Sunday obligation" is yet another "unnecessary rule" by the RCC, but the idea predates the [Roman] Catholic Church. Forsaking the Sunday Eucharist without a justifiable reason breaks the third commandment, which both Catholics and Orthodox recognize.

Sunday Obligation isn't wrong, except with how it is worded in the Catholic Church.  Why do people need to be threattened with "mortal sin"?
Why does the Chriatian faith in general threaten us with hell? It's because there are consequences to sin.


You know what started my path to Orthodoxy?  When somebody explained to me why I should love God without the "or else you'll go to hell" bit.  Not that hell was ever denied nor not that the fact that it is indeed a consequence.  Our faith shouldn't be about scaring us into submission.  Christianity isn't about going to hell, its about going to heaven.  So why should I constantly be threattened with hell?  If someone is not attending Sunday Liturgy regularly, then there must be an underlying issue.  Shouldn't that be addressed instead of an impersonal, "I don't care what your issues are but you are going to hell."?
Um, in your religion you get the same thing. If you don't repent of your sins, you are going to hell. In fact, I think that's a common teaching of every Christian denomination. BTW, as a Catholic, I've always known that we should love God because he is God, and not just out of fear of hell. I'm surprised that this was not part of your catechesis.
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« Reply #89 on: February 27, 2013, 08:06:52 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.
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« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2013, 08:08:57 PM »

Uh, we are obligated to worship God by the First Commandment. If there can't be a canon law which supports that, then we may as well have no canons anyway.
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« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2013, 08:10:13 PM »

Uh, we are obligated to worship God by the First Commandment. If there can't be a canon law which supports that, then we may as well have no canons anyway.
Good point.
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« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2013, 10:46:52 PM »

Exactly. I've heard (though correct me if I'm wrong) that Christ actually warned about hell more than He talked about heaven in the New Testament.

Warning about hell and threattening it are two different things.  Telling someone that they should be careful and if not they could fall over the bridge is different from telling someone you'll throw them over the bridge.
It isn't a "threat," it's a warning. Anyone who is in mortal sin can repent by availing themselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
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« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2013, 11:33:25 PM »

Uh, we are obligated to worship God by the First Commandment. If there can't be a canon law which supports that, then we may as well have no canons anyway.

Is there a canon law about murder?
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« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2013, 11:34:03 PM »

Uh, we are obligated to worship God by the First Commandment. If there can't be a canon law which supports that, then we may as well have no canons anyway.
Good point.

Not really.  Not all commandments are codified in Canon Law.  Also, if it is already in the 10 commandments, why does it need to be in canon law?
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« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2013, 11:35:39 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.
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« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2013, 11:48:31 PM »

Speaking of which, why doesn't the Catholic Church have a Reader's Typika?  Is this a counter reformation thing where the hierarchy were afriad people would think they no longer need bishops or priests?

It does.  

Sorry, I'm talking about RCs.

So am I.
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« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2013, 11:06:47 AM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.

If you love someone, especially God, you will continually strive to "...do what one does who loves God...", and when you fail and fall down, as you almost inevitably will, His commandments (which are not suggestions, btw) are there to remind you what you have failed at and what needs to be done.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that it is inherent in the nature of a "commandment" that one is obligated to follow it.  One is not obliged, however, to follow a suggestion.

In the Garden, God didn't threaten Adam and Eve with death if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  He just stated what the consequence of such an action would be.  There *is* a difference, you know.  I suppose one could, if one was rebellious and contrary enough, take such a statement of cause and effect as a "threat", however.
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« Reply #98 on: February 28, 2013, 11:16:19 AM »

Michael,
You are correct. Choy is just playing semantic games.
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« Reply #99 on: February 28, 2013, 11:31:22 AM »

There are many people of both Orthodox and Roman Catholic heritage who regardless of obligation feel the need to go to church on a regular basis.  After all, Communion isn't just the reception of the Body and Blood of Christ it is a fellowship or the Com Union of people gathered to worship in one place. Conversely, many O's and RC's do not attend regular Sunday services in spite of the 'obligation' that is placed on them.  So what matters is 'what is in the heart of the regular church goer'?  If he or she truly loves God then he or she will seek out this Comm.union without the threat of being cutoff so to speak.  There are many ways to 'keep the Sabbath Holy', attending church is one of them albeit an important one.
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« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2013, 03:16:38 PM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
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« Reply #101 on: March 01, 2013, 05:30:32 AM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.
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« Reply #102 on: March 01, 2013, 10:54:26 AM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.
You're playing word games, and I think you know it.
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« Reply #103 on: March 01, 2013, 10:54:59 AM »

Uh, we are obligated to worship God by the First Commandment. If there can't be a canon law which supports that, then we may as well have no canons anyway.
Good point.

Not really.  Not all commandments are codified in Canon Law.  Also, if it is already in the 10 commandments, why does it need to be in canon law?
Yes, let's get rid of canon law altogher ya protestant.  Wink
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« Reply #104 on: March 01, 2013, 10:55:31 AM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html
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« Reply #105 on: March 01, 2013, 10:55:50 AM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.
The first commandment obliges you to worship God, but you should still do it out of love.
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« Reply #106 on: March 01, 2013, 10:56:38 AM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
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« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2013, 10:57:29 AM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html
What is more, EOs are obliged to go to Liturgy too. If they are absent after so many sundays, they are excommunicated. If they willfully choose to not remedy the situation, they place their souls in jeopardy.
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« Reply #108 on: March 01, 2013, 11:15:58 AM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?

It's never been a problem.  Especially since, at least in the vast majority of RC parishes, one has an option of several Masses to attend.  Not so much so in the Byzantine parishes, though there are some that do celebrate a Vigil Mass on Saturday evenings.

So...I guess the alarm going off excuse doesn't quite cut it.  Did you dog eat your homework, too  Grin?
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« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2013, 11:18:03 AM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Mortal sin requires full consent of the will. I doubt that missing mass because your forgort to set your alarm qualifies as full consent of the will. I've forgotten to go to mass on a Holy Day here or there. I did not willfull miss mass. Consequently, the priest to whom I confessed did not think it was a mortal sin.
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« Reply #110 on: March 01, 2013, 11:22:00 AM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Mortal sin requires full consent of the will. I doubt that missing mass because your forgort to set your alarm qualifies as full consent of the will. I've forgotten to go to mass on a Holy Day here or there. I did not willfull miss mass. Consequently, the priest to whom I confessed did not think it was a mortal sin.

And yet you confessed it, nonetheless.  And that is NOT a criticism.  Wink
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« Reply #111 on: March 01, 2013, 12:05:07 PM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Mortal sin requires full consent of the will. I doubt that missing mass because your forgort to set your alarm qualifies as full consent of the will. I've forgotten to go to mass on a Holy Day here or there. I did not willfull miss mass. Consequently, the priest to whom I confessed did not think it was a mortal sin.

And yet you confessed it, nonetheless.  And that is NOT a criticism.  Wink
Haha, just in case. Cheesy
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« Reply #112 on: March 01, 2013, 12:06:33 PM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Mortal sin requires full consent of the will. I doubt that missing mass because your forgort to set your alarm qualifies as full consent of the will. I've forgotten to go to mass on a Holy Day here or there. I did not willfull miss mass. Consequently, the priest to whom I confessed did not think it was a mortal sin.

Ah, ok. Thank you.
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« Reply #113 on: March 01, 2013, 12:08:05 PM »

What if the alarm didn't go off? Do you have to confess that?
Mortal sin requires full consent of the will. I doubt that missing mass because your forgort to set your alarm qualifies as full consent of the will. I've forgotten to go to mass on a Holy Day here or there. I did not willfull miss mass. Consequently, the priest to whom I confessed did not think it was a mortal sin.

And yet you confessed it, nonetheless.  And that is NOT a criticism.  Wink
My carelessness was still probably a minor venial sin, or at the least an imperfection.
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« Reply #114 on: March 01, 2013, 12:09:31 PM »

Another silly question: do Holy Days always fall on sundays? If not, what if you have to work/go to school on those days?
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« Reply #115 on: March 01, 2013, 12:12:35 PM »

Another silly question: do Holy Days always fall on sundays? If not, what if you have to work/go to school on those days?
They do not always fall on Sundays. If you absolutely cannot get out of work, then the guilt is on your boss, not you. Though, there are certain jobs, like emergency work, which must work, and the Church understands that.
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« Reply #116 on: March 01, 2013, 12:18:17 PM »

I see. Again, thank you.
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« Reply #117 on: March 01, 2013, 12:20:43 PM »

Another silly question: do Holy Days always fall on sundays? If not, what if you have to work/go to school on those days?
They do not always fall on Sundays. If you absolutely cannot get out of work, then the guilt is on your boss, not you. Though, there are certain jobs, like emergency work, which must work, and the Church understands that.

This is correct.  Plus, again, most RC parishes will usually have more than just a single Mass on a Holy Day that falls on a weekday--sometimes a Vigil Mass on the evening before, then a morning Mass, and an afternoon or evening Mass on the day itself. 
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« Reply #118 on: March 01, 2013, 12:22:11 PM »

Another silly question: do Holy Days always fall on sundays? If not, what if you have to work/go to school on those days?
They do not always fall on Sundays. If you absolutely cannot get out of work, then the guilt is on your boss, not you. Though, there are certain jobs, like emergency work, which must work, and the Church understands that.

This is correct.  Plus, again, most RC parishes will usually have more than just a single Mass on a Holy Day that falls on a weekday--sometimes a Vigil Mass on the evening before, then a morning Mass, and an afternoon or evening Mass on the day itself. 

Is it also not true that attending any Mass on that day will also work, ie, a regular weekday mass that is always scheduled for say, noon
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« Reply #119 on: March 01, 2013, 12:31:38 PM »

Another silly question: do Holy Days always fall on sundays? If not, what if you have to work/go to school on those days?
They do not always fall on Sundays. If you absolutely cannot get out of work, then the guilt is on your boss, not you. Though, there are certain jobs, like emergency work, which must work, and the Church understands that.

This is correct.  Plus, again, most RC parishes will usually have more than just a single Mass on a Holy Day that falls on a weekday--sometimes a Vigil Mass on the evening before, then a morning Mass, and an afternoon or evening Mass on the day itself. 

Is it also not true that attending any Mass on that day will also work, ie, a regular weekday mass that is always scheduled for say, noon

Yes.
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« Reply #120 on: March 01, 2013, 12:32:37 PM »

Do Byzantine Catholics have holy days of obligation? Are they the same as in the Latin Church or do they correspond to the great feasts?
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« Reply #121 on: March 01, 2013, 12:59:33 PM »

Do Byzantine Catholics have holy days of obligation? Are they the same as in the Latin Church or do they correspond to the great feasts?

Yes, we do.
Quote
The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches lays down the following norms for Eastern Catholic Churches:

    It is for the authority competent to establish the particular law of a sui iuris Church to constitute, transfer or suppress feast days and days of penance for that sui iuris Church, after, however, seeking the views of other sui iuris Churches and observing canon 40 §1.[2]

    Holy days of obligation common to all the Eastern Churches are, apart from Sundays, the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension, the Dormition of Holy Mary the Mother of God, and the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, except for a particular law of a sui iuris Church, approved by the Apostolic See, which suppresses some holy days of obligation or transfers them to a Sunday.[3]
    The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy or, according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own sui iuris Church, in the celebration of the divine praises.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_day_of_obligation#Eastern_Catholic_Churches
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« Reply #122 on: March 01, 2013, 01:24:03 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

Wrong.

ob·li·ga·tion (bl-gshn)
n.
1. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.
2.
a. A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action.
b. A course of action imposed by society, law, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted.
3. The constraining power of a promise, contract, law, or sense of duty.
4. Law
a. A legal agreement stipulating a specified payment or action, especially if the agreement also specifies a penalty for failure to comply.
b. The document containing the terms of such an agreement.
5.
a. Something owed as payment or in return for a special service or favor.
b. The service or favor for which one is indebted to another.
6. The state, fact, or feeling of being indebted to another for a special service or favor received.


Love does not make us obligate.  If we love God, we serve Him because we love him, not because we are obligated to do so.
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« Reply #123 on: March 01, 2013, 01:25:59 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

Wrong.

ob·li·ga·tion (bl-gshn)
n.
1. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.
2.
a. A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action.
b. A course of action imposed by society, law, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted.
3. The constraining power of a promise, contract, law, or sense of duty.
4. Law
a. A legal agreement stipulating a specified payment or action, especially if the agreement also specifies a penalty for failure to comply.
b. The document containing the terms of such an agreement.
5.
a. Something owed as payment or in return for a special service or favor.
b. The service or favor for which one is indebted to another.
6. The state, fact, or feeling of being indebted to another for a special service or favor received.


Love does not make us obligate.  If we love God, we serve Him because we love him, not because we are obligated to do so.
The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.
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« Reply #124 on: March 01, 2013, 01:35:23 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

Wrong.

ob·li·ga·tion (bl-gshn)
n.
1. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.
2.
a. A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action.
b. A course of action imposed by society, law, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted.
3. The constraining power of a promise, contract, law, or sense of duty.
4. Law
a. A legal agreement stipulating a specified payment or action, especially if the agreement also specifies a penalty for failure to comply.
b. The document containing the terms of such an agreement.
5.
a. Something owed as payment or in return for a special service or favor.
b. The service or favor for which one is indebted to another.
6. The state, fact, or feeling of being indebted to another for a special service or favor received.


Love does not make us obligate.  If we love God, we serve Him because we love him, not because we are obligated to do so.
The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.

He's too busy picking nits to see it Grin
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« Reply #125 on: March 01, 2013, 01:36:22 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

Wrong.

ob·li·ga·tion (bl-gshn)
n.
1. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.
2.
a. A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action.
b. A course of action imposed by society, law, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted.
3. The constraining power of a promise, contract, law, or sense of duty.
4. Law
a. A legal agreement stipulating a specified payment or action, especially if the agreement also specifies a penalty for failure to comply.
b. The document containing the terms of such an agreement.
5.
a. Something owed as payment or in return for a special service or favor.
b. The service or favor for which one is indebted to another.
6. The state, fact, or feeling of being indebted to another for a special service or favor received.


Love does not make us obligate.  If we love God, we serve Him because we love him, not because we are obligated to do so.
The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.

He's too busy picking nits to see it Grin
The favorite pastime of most ex-Catholics.
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« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2013, 01:36:47 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

Wrong.

ob·li·ga·tion (bl-gshn)
n.
1. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.
2.
a. A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action.
b. A course of action imposed by society, law, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted.
3. The constraining power of a promise, contract, law, or sense of duty.
4. Law
a. A legal agreement stipulating a specified payment or action, especially if the agreement also specifies a penalty for failure to comply.
b. The document containing the terms of such an agreement.
5.
a. Something owed as payment or in return for a special service or favor.
b. The service or favor for which one is indebted to another.
6. The state, fact, or feeling of being indebted to another for a special service or favor received.


Love does not make us obligate.  If we love God, we serve Him because we love him, not because we are obligated to do so.

See reply #97 above.
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« Reply #127 on: March 01, 2013, 01:37:07 PM »

The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.

Because I follow a faith that is not purely legalistic.  Not everything is an obligation.  The law is meant to guide us, not to rule us.  The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath.  We are not justified by observing the law (Gal 2:16).

Look, I don't feed my family and put a roof on their heads because it is my obligation to do so.  You can say that as a father and husband it is my obligation.  But I don't do it because it is my obligation, I do it because I love them.  Even without that obligation I will still do it, because I love them.  The same for God, in fact even more.  I don't have to be obligated to do something for God if I truly love him.  I will do what one does when one loves.  It is not because there is a consequence or because there is something forcing you to do so.  Love is not an obligation.
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« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2013, 01:37:47 PM »

The favorite pastime of most ex-Catholics.

Speck meets plank, again.
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« Reply #129 on: March 01, 2013, 01:40:03 PM »

The favorite pastime of most ex-Catholics.

Speck meets plank, again.
I'm not the one who is looking for imaginary problems, you are sir. What's it like, hunting for big foot?
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« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2013, 01:43:40 PM »

Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.
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« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2013, 01:46:01 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.

If you love someone, especially God, you will continually strive to "...do what one does who loves God...", and when you fail and fall down, as you almost inevitably will, His commandments (which are not suggestions, btw) are there to remind you what you have failed at and what needs to be done.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that it is inherent in the nature of a "commandment" that one is obligated to follow it.  One is not obliged, however, to follow a suggestion.

In the Garden, God didn't threaten Adam and Eve with death if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  He just stated what the consequence of such an action would be.  There *is* a difference, you know.  I suppose one could, if one was rebellious and contrary enough, take such a statement of cause and effect as a "threat", however.

I agree, but then why is one obligated to go to Mass on Sunday "under pain of Mortal Sin"?  And again I reiterate, Mortal Sin is an excommunication (you can't receive communion) and an anathema (RC theology teaches that one cannot go to heaven, even purgatory, if one has the stain of mortal sin on one's soul).  I've said again and again, I'm not against the Church saying we have to go to Sunday Liturgy.  I'm against the decree of obligating people under pain of mortal sin.
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« Reply #132 on: March 01, 2013, 01:47:00 PM »

Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.

But he never condemned you to hell, did he?  That is what being under pain of mortal sin is.
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« Reply #133 on: March 01, 2013, 01:47:28 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.

If you love someone, especially God, you will continually strive to "...do what one does who loves God...", and when you fail and fall down, as you almost inevitably will, His commandments (which are not suggestions, btw) are there to remind you what you have failed at and what needs to be done.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that it is inherent in the nature of a "commandment" that one is obligated to follow it.  One is not obliged, however, to follow a suggestion.

In the Garden, God didn't threaten Adam and Eve with death if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  He just stated what the consequence of such an action would be.  There *is* a difference, you know.  I suppose one could, if one was rebellious and contrary enough, take such a statement of cause and effect as a "threat", however.

I agree, but then why is one obligated to go to Mass on Sunday "under pain of Mortal Sin"?  And again I reiterate, Mortal Sin is an excommunication (you can't receive communion) and an anathema (RC theology teaches that one cannot go to heaven, even purgatory, if one has the stain of mortal sin on one's soul).  I've said again and again, I'm not against the Church saying we have to go to Sunday Liturgy.  I'm against the decree of obligating people under pain of mortal sin.
In your own church, if you miss several sundays in a row, you are excommunicated. It is taken quite seriously in the Orthodox Church as well.
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« Reply #134 on: March 01, 2013, 01:47:44 PM »

The favorite pastime of most ex-Catholics.

Speck meets plank, again.
I'm not the one who is looking for imaginary problems, you are sir. What's it like, hunting for big foot?

Is it really an imaginary problem?  Just see the state of the spirituality in many of your parishes.
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« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2013, 01:47:49 PM »

The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.

Because I follow a faith that is not purely legalistic.  Not everything is an obligation.  The law is meant to guide us, not to rule us.  The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath.  We are not justified by observing the law (Gal 2:16).

Look, I don't feed my family and put a roof on their heads because it is my obligation to do so.  You can say that as a father and husband it is my obligation.  But I don't do it because it is my obligation, I do it because I love them.  Even without that obligation I will still do it, because I love them.  The same for God, in fact even more.  I don't have to be obligated to do something for God if I truly love him.  I will do what one does when one loves.  It is not because there is a consequence or because there is something forcing you to do so.  Love is not an obligation.

The fact that you do it out of love is highly commendable, but it doesn't eliminate the obligation you have to do so, even if NOT out of love, or while your love is growing and maturing.

I really do think you need to get past the word "obligation" and look more deeply.  Or, even better, just accept that the Catholic Church uses that particular term, get over it, and move on to things that will deepen your *Orthodox* spiritual life.  (Didn't I already say something like that??)
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« Reply #136 on: March 01, 2013, 01:48:06 PM »

Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.

But he never condemned you to hell, did he?  That is what being under pain of mortal sin is.
The Church does not condemn anyone to hell. People condemn themselves with their own actions.
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« Reply #137 on: March 01, 2013, 01:48:35 PM »

The fact that we love God does not change the fact that the first commandment obliges us to worship him. I'm at a loss as to why you can't see this.

Because I follow a faith that is not purely legalistic.  Not everything is an obligation.  The law is meant to guide us, not to rule us.  The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath.  We are not justified by observing the law (Gal 2:16).

Look, I don't feed my family and put a roof on their heads because it is my obligation to do so.  You can say that as a father and husband it is my obligation.  But I don't do it because it is my obligation, I do it because I love them.  Even without that obligation I will still do it, because I love them.  The same for God, in fact even more.  I don't have to be obligated to do something for God if I truly love him.  I will do what one does when one loves.  It is not because there is a consequence or because there is something forcing you to do so.  Love is not an obligation.

The fact that you do it out of love is highly commendable, but it doesn't eliminate the obligation you have to do so, even if NOT out of love, or while your love is growing and maturing.

I really do think you need to get past the word "obligation" and look more deeply.  Or, even better, just accept that the Catholic Church uses that particular term, get over it, and move on to things that will deepen your *Orthodox* spiritual life.  (Didn't I already say something like that??)
^ This
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« Reply #138 on: March 01, 2013, 01:48:47 PM »

In your own church, if you miss several sundays in a row, you are excommunicated. It is taken quite seriously in the Orthodox Church as well.

Sure, but we are not threattened under pain of mortal sin.  I've never denied what you said, but there is a huge difference in practice.
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« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2013, 01:49:25 PM »

Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.

But he never condemned you to hell, did he?  That is what being under pain of mortal sin is.
The Church does not condemn anyone to hell. People condemn themselves with their own actions.

So you can get to heaven if you have mortal sin?
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« Reply #140 on: March 01, 2013, 01:49:52 PM »

The favorite pastime of most ex-Catholics.

Speck meets plank, again.
I'm not the one who is looking for imaginary problems, you are sir. What's it like, hunting for big foot?

Is it really an imaginary problem?  Just see the state of the spirituality in many of your parishes.
I can find Greek Orthodox parishes with the same problems. But as for my parish, it is very traditional, and takes the sunday obligation very serious. Guess, what! It's probably one the most spiritually vibrant parishes in the diocese.  Grin Keep grasping at those straws Choy!
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« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2013, 01:50:39 PM »

Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.

But he never condemned you to hell, did he?  That is what being under pain of mortal sin is.
The Church does not condemn anyone to hell. People condemn themselves with their own actions.

So you can get to heaven if you have mortal sin?
The Church does not put people in a state of moral sin. People put themselves in a state of moral sin by their actions. Your question is a diversion.
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« Reply #142 on: March 01, 2013, 01:52:08 PM »

Look, here's my point.  If someone turly loves God, do we have to obligate them?  No.  If someone is still in the process of growing their love for God then we need to help them in that process.  If a nominal Catholic or Orthodox doesn't always go to church, would threattening them with hell help?  Yes, I understand that is probably the result.  It also might not, who knows.  But people who don't understand why they need to go to church regularly on Sundays won't be convinced they need to do so just because you threatten them with hell.
If we love God, then we are obliged to serve him.

No.  You only oblige people who don't want to do something.  If you love someone, especially God, you will do what one does who loves God without having to be obligated to do so.

If you love someone, especially God, you will continually strive to "...do what one does who loves God...", and when you fail and fall down, as you almost inevitably will, His commandments (which are not suggestions, btw) are there to remind you what you have failed at and what needs to be done.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that it is inherent in the nature of a "commandment" that one is obligated to follow it.  One is not obliged, however, to follow a suggestion.

In the Garden, God didn't threaten Adam and Eve with death if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  He just stated what the consequence of such an action would be.  There *is* a difference, you know.  I suppose one could, if one was rebellious and contrary enough, take such a statement of cause and effect as a "threat", however.

I agree, but then why is one obligated to go to Mass on Sunday "under pain of Mortal Sin"?  And again I reiterate, Mortal Sin is an excommunication (you can't receive communion) and an anathema (RC theology teaches that one cannot go to heaven, even purgatory, if one has the stain of mortal sin on one's soul).  I've said again and again, I'm not against the Church saying we have to go to Sunday Liturgy. I'm against the decree of obligating people under pain of mortal sin.



I think we got that.  And by leaving the Catholic Church and becoming Orthodox you are no longer "obligated* to attend Sunday Mass and Catholic Holy Days.  You do, I think, have a really, really, REALLY strong suggestion to attend your Orthodox Sunday and Holy Day Services, and if you miss 3 or more in a row are excommunicated (and we all know what *that* means), must confess to God before your priest, and receive absolution before you are allowed to approach the chalice once again.  Sounds kinda like an "obligation" of sorts to me.
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« Reply #143 on: March 01, 2013, 01:54:27 PM »

Am I only Orthodox here who thinks that we have Sunday obligation too? I believe it's most certainly sinful to skip holy day service without some really good reason. I remember one sunday when our bishop visited our parish and after the liturgy he exhorted everyone who hadn't attended the vigil on saturday to go to confession.

But he never condemned you to hell, did he?  That is what being under pain of mortal sin is.

Nope, but he seemed to think that attending services is obligatory. Not just something really good and spiritually constructive but obligatory.
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« Reply #144 on: March 01, 2013, 01:56:59 PM »

I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."
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« Reply #145 on: March 01, 2013, 02:03:38 PM »

I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

Yes--modern society and disaffected Catholics.
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« Reply #146 on: March 01, 2013, 04:58:01 PM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html

Well, I was taught by the good nuns of St. Joseph that If you died that Sunday you decided not to go you'd be on the hot plate for sure.....
The diocesan priests in H.S. mentioned the same theme........What changed in the unchangeable church.?
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« Reply #147 on: March 01, 2013, 05:09:14 PM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html

Well, I was taught by the good nuns of St. Joseph that If you died that Sunday you decided not to go you'd be on the hot plate for sure.....
The diocesan priests in H.S. mentioned the same theme........What changed in the unchangeable church.?
Nothing changed. It has alway been a truth of our faith that for a sin to be mortal, one must have full consent of their will. When things are out of one's control, then that person does not have full consent of the will.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 05:09:37 PM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #148 on: March 01, 2013, 05:10:49 PM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html

Well, I was taught by the good nuns of St. Joseph that If you died that Sunday you decided not to go you'd be on the hot plate for sure.....
The diocesan priests in H.S. mentioned the same theme........What changed in the unchangeable church.?

Hmm....dunno.  There's a difference, I think, between deciding not to go just because you don't want to and then dying, and not being able to go because you just died.  The former involves consent of the will, while the latter probably doesn't.
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« Reply #149 on: March 01, 2013, 06:28:06 PM »

I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

No, the problem is there is an expectation to do something and people do it because of the expectation, not the real reason why they need to do something.  Take fasting for example.  Your daily average Roman Catholic fasts during Lent because it is required.  Ask them why and you'll have a thousand or more different answers.  I myself went through Catholic education and all that and it wasn't only until the last 5 years when I learned what fasting really is in our faith.  All the while I thought I was just impressing God by not eating meat or not eating anything at all for X amount of time.  I can start posting St. John Chrysostom quotes on fruitless fasting, but I'm assuming you know them already.
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« Reply #150 on: March 01, 2013, 10:06:50 PM »

I guess the reason why the Sunday obligation isn't a big deal to me is because I love going to Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable or like a threat to me because, even if missing Mass didn't have the potential to be a mortal sin, I would still go regularly.
I like going to church but it is nice to know that if I really didn't sleep well, I am not endangering my eternal soul so I can respect the needs of my body or get whatever care I need in my life.  I would (usually) rather learn to be healthy in everything than stress a couple of rules that hurt. Lord-willing, I will gain the wisdom to really live that out more one of these days.

What many people seem to fail to realize about the Sunday obligation is that it is NOT a "BE THERE OR GO TO HELL" proposition.  Far from it, really.

A very quick Google search yielded this:
Quote
We are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and every other Holy Day of Obligation. Sometimes, though, we just can't be there. One's own sickness or the obligations to care for a sick person 1, having given birth within the past 6 weeks, dangerous weather (and other safety hazards), not being able to find a way there -- life happens. There is no guilt in missing Mass if the circumstances are out of one's control (mortal sin always requires not only grave matter and knowledge, but consent of the will).
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html

Well, I was taught by the good nuns of St. Joseph that If you died that Sunday you decided not to go you'd be on the hot plate for sure.....
The diocesan priests in H.S. mentioned the same theme........What changed in the unchangeable church.?

Hmm....dunno.  There's a difference, I think, between deciding not to go just because you don't want to and then dying, and not being able to go because you just died.  The former involves consent of the will, while the latter probably doesn't.

Something I was taught/read(which, looking through the lens of what's truthfully on this thread, is wrong)

Say you decide to knowing skip Mass early in the day because you didnt feel like going, but then later had an accident on Sunday and then died, you would have commited mortal sin. If my memory serves, it was also said that this was also true if you planned on going at say, a night Mass, but didnt make it because of the aformentioned death. (for clarification, this senario is the same as the above, except adding in plans to make mass later, because of lazieness earlier)

EDIT: just realized that I said the same thing as JoeS2, whoops, but leaving my post aboe regardless
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« Reply #151 on: March 01, 2013, 11:41:18 PM »

I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

No, the problem is there is an expectation to do something and people do it because of the expectation, not the real reason why they need to do something.  Take fasting for example.  Your daily average Roman Catholic fasts during Lent because it is required.  Ask them why and you'll have a thousand or more different answers.  I myself went through Catholic education and all that and it wasn't only until the last 5 years when I learned what fasting really is in our faith.  All the while I thought I was just impressing God by not eating meat or not eating anything at all for X amount of time.  I can start posting St. John Chrysostom quotes on fruitless fasting, but I'm assuming you know them already.

If a person is Fasting to keep the laws of the church it is not fruitless, he may not be exercising charity of generosity towards God but he is excercising the virtue of obedience.
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« Reply #152 on: March 02, 2013, 04:34:04 AM »

I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

No, the problem is there is an expectation to do something and people do it because of the expectation, not the real reason why they need to do something.  Take fasting for example.  Your daily average Roman Catholic fasts during Lent because it is required.  Ask them why and you'll have a thousand or more different answers.  I myself went through Catholic education and all that and it wasn't only until the last 5 years when I learned what fasting really is in our faith.  All the while I thought I was just impressing God by not eating meat or not eating anything at all for X amount of time.  I can start posting St. John Chrysostom quotes on fruitless fasting, but I'm assuming you know them already.

If a person is Fasting to keep the laws of the church it is not fruitless, he may not be exercising charity of generosity towards God but he is excercising the virtue of obedience.

You don't need to do fasting to exercise obedience.  If people don't know why they fast, then it is spiritually fruitless.  People on a diet fast, do they become holy by the act itself?  Pharisees follow the law to the letter and this practice were condemned by Christ because they believed that salvation can be had just by following the law strictly yet blindly.
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« Reply #153 on: March 02, 2013, 11:18:40 AM »

I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

No, the problem is there is an expectation to do something and people do it because of the expectation, not the real reason why they need to do something.  Take fasting for example.  Your daily average Roman Catholic fasts during Lent because it is required.  Ask them why and you'll have a thousand or more different answers.  I myself went through Catholic education and all that and it wasn't only until the last 5 years when I learned what fasting really is in our faith.  All the while I thought I was just impressing God by not eating meat or not eating anything at all for X amount of time.  I can start posting St. John Chrysostom quotes on fruitless fasting, but I'm assuming you know them already.

If a person is Fasting to keep the laws of the church it is not fruitless, he may not be exercising charity of generosity towards God but he is excercising the virtue of obedience.

You don't need to do fasting to exercise obedience.  If people don't know why they fast, then it is spiritually fruitless.  People on a diet fast, do they become holy by the act itself?  Pharisees follow the law to the letter and this practice were condemned by Christ because they believed that salvation can be had just by following the law strictly yet blindly.
Obedience to the Church is virtuous. Thus, even a person's only reason for fasting during lent is obedience to the Church, that person would still grow in holiness. Another swing and a miss for you Choy.
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« Reply #154 on: March 02, 2013, 05:59:54 PM »

I think modern society does not like the idea of "obligation," because, "how dare some one tell me I have to do something." It's not that "obligation" is un-christian. It's just not modern and "with-it."

No, the problem is there is an expectation to do something and people do it because of the expectation, not the real reason why they need to do something.  Take fasting for example.  Your daily average Roman Catholic fasts during Lent because it is required.  Ask them why and you'll have a thousand or more different answers.  I myself went through Catholic education and all that and it wasn't only until the last 5 years when I learned what fasting really is in our faith.  All the while I thought I was just impressing God by not eating meat or not eating anything at all for X amount of time.  I can start posting St. John Chrysostom quotes on fruitless fasting, but I'm assuming you know them already.

If a person is Fasting to keep the laws of the church it is not fruitless, he may not be exercising charity of generosity towards God but he is excercising the virtue of obedience.

You don't need to do fasting to exercise obedience.  If people don't know why they fast, then it is spiritually fruitless.  People on a diet fast, do they become holy by the act itself?  Pharisees follow the law to the letter and this practice were condemned by Christ because they believed that salvation can be had just by following the law strictly yet blindly.

If a person Fasts because the Church tells them too, and they believe that the Church has the power to bind and loose and that to obey the Church pleases our Lord Jesus Christ, then  I would say that even though they lack a lot of knowledge they have enough to be making acts of virtue.

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