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Author Topic: Two Popes living - Problems ahead?  (Read 2531 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2013, 12:32:32 PM »

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism?Huh

Indeed. Another sticky problem of "indelibility" ....  Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2013, 12:41:40 PM »

That decree proves the point my previous post. Per Catholic theology, Benedict can't make any such statements, since he can't exercise the charism of an office he resigned from.

By way of analogy, I used to be a supervisor in a unit at my company. I voluntarily stepped down, but still work for the same company. Now there is new a supervisor of the unit. I can't now go to the unit and tell the employees what to do, since I gave up any authority I had there when I decided to step down. The authority now resides with the current supervisor.

Well, I think that

"When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians he defines with his supreme apostolic authority that a doctrine on faith and morals is to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised him in the person of St. Peter, he enjoys that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished to endow his Church in defining a doctrine on faith and morals."

may perhaps still be true of ... well, you know, the man we're talking about; but the thing is, it's a conditional statement, and I'm sure that he has no intention of issuing any statements satisfying the conditions.

Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism?Huh
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« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2013, 03:19:20 PM »

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism?Huh

Indeed. Another sticky problem of "indelibility" ....  Tongue

That, finally, is the point I was leading towards. I don't know that Catholic theology ever defined the problem. After all, the "charism" never "left" as flawed a Pope as Alexander the Sixth. The last pope who retired was reviled. Generally speaking, the "charism" of most sacramental acts is viewed as "indelible". I somehow think the ability of a man to "renounce" (not too strong of a term in my mind) something so "special" seems to create a problem within their theology behind the special nature of the Papal Office.

Above my pay grade, but interesting....
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« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2013, 03:29:13 PM »

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

Are you really a sedevacantist? Since when?
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« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2013, 03:39:57 PM »

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

Are you really a sedevacantist? Since when?

Since the Pope retired and the "sede" is "vacant".  Technically, all Catholics are, if you look at the term in the narrowest (or is it broadest?) possible interpretation.

But, as PeterJ feels its quite alright to bring up my history in this forum, you might want to ask him about his own meanderings within the Christian communion.  For all I know, he may really be a "sedevacantist" in the sense of those who are members of the SSPX. 
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« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2013, 06:26:02 PM »

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

Are you really a sedevacantist? Since when?

About 51 1/2 hours ago.

Since the Pope retired and the "sede" is "vacant".  Technically, all Catholics are, if you look at the term in the narrowest (or is it broadest?) possible interpretation.

But, as PeterJ feels its quite alright to bring up my history in this forum, you might want to ask him about his own meanderings within the Christian communion.  For all I know, he may really be a "sedevacantist" in the sense of those who are members of the SSPX. 

 Huh

Is there a specific question you have in mind? And what does 'a "sedevacantist" in the sense of those who are members of the SSPX' mean?
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« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2013, 06:57:39 PM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
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« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2013, 08:48:01 PM »

But I really would rather to get a traditionalist pope, who restaured the traditional rites, maybe in vernacular languages, who would get "tough" with non-Romans,

Especially those awful Ambrosians.

Are you really a sedevacantist? Since when?

About 51 1/2 hours ago.

Since the Pope retired and the "sede" is "vacant".  Technically, all Catholics are, if you look at the term in the narrowest (or is it broadest?) possible interpretation.

But, as PeterJ feels its quite alright to bring up my history in this forum, you might want to ask him about his own meanderings within the Christian communion.  For all I know, he may really be a "sedevacantist" in the sense of those who are members of the SSPX. 

 Huh

1. Is there a specific question you have in mind?

2. And what does 'a "sedevacantist" in the sense of those who are members of the SSPX' mean?

1. Nope. 

2. I thought members of the SSPX *were* "sedevacantists" in the sense of not recognizing the legitimacy of the Pope since VII.  I don't really keep up with the goings-on of that part of the Catholic Church, so I could be dead wrong about that and won't hesitate to admit it if so.
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« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2013, 09:34:14 PM »

Huh

1. Is there a specific question you have in mind?

1. Nope. 

You said:

But, as PeterJ feels its quite alright to bring up my history in this forum, you might want to ask him about his own meanderings within the Christian communion

Now, regarding the underlined part, I'm already somewhat used to the notion that some like myself should just mind-our-place on this forum and not think ourselves on the same level as other posters. (Case in point, it's common knowledge that you are ex-Orthodox as you announced it on the forum, yet you mockingly comment "PeterJ feels its quite alright to bring up my history in this forum".)

But regarding the italicized part, I would like an explanation of what "meanderings within the Christian communion" you're referring to.
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« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2013, 07:12:00 AM »

Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism?Huh

So they could have just the 'office' of Peter, without a person in it?
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« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2013, 07:23:54 AM »

But regarding the italicized part, I would like an explanation of what "meanderings within the Christian communion" you're referring to.

P.S. Well, maybe I should have said "I would to see you try to explain it." :shrugRoll Eyes
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2013, 09:41:52 AM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  With all its "valid but illicit" stuff with its "indelible marks" all over the place, supercharism conveyed outside the sacramental system and lessers ordaining their superiors, and the non-consecrated holding an episcopal office, it is quite muddled.

Catholic theology is clear about this.  Which is why the Orthodox Church does not have a "munus" of a "supreme pontiff."
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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2013, 10:00:46 AM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2013, 10:04:44 AM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.
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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2013, 02:23:52 PM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ
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« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2013, 02:28:37 PM »

Well, I think that

"When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians he defines with his supreme apostolic authority that a doctrine on faith and morals is to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised him in the person of St. Peter, he enjoys that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished to endow his Church in defining a doctrine on faith and morals."

may perhaps still be true of ... well, you know, the man we're talking about; but the thing is, it's a conditional statement, and I'm sure that he has no intention of issuing any statements satisfying the conditions.

Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism?Huh

Thing is, the answer and resolution to all these questions and problems is in this statement in the parts in orange. It isn't the man, rather, the office. He is a retired Pope and Bishop of Rome, but no longer holds that office, so it will enver apply to him again.
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« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2013, 03:45:43 PM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.
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« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2013, 04:01:17 PM »

Well, I think that

"When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians he defines with his supreme apostolic authority that a doctrine on faith and morals is to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised him in the person of St. Peter, he enjoys that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished to endow his Church in defining a doctrine on faith and morals."

may perhaps still be true of ... well, you know, the man we're talking about; but the thing is, it's a conditional statement, and I'm sure that he has no intention of issuing any statements satisfying the conditions.

Per Catholic theology I believe the charism of papal infallibility is in the office of the Papacy, not the person. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict is now resigned/retired, the charism doesn't follow him, but would go to the next holder of the office.

Orrrrrr everyone should just calm down. I'm sure it will be just fine. Does anyone really believe that Pope Benedict has any intentions of causing problems for the next Pope or for the unity of the Church?

The problem is, I believe, that the 'special Charism' of Peter was already transmitted to Ratzinger on him becoming pope... and he's still alive. Does he 'cast off' Peter's charism?Huh

Thing is, the answer and resolution to all these questions and problems is in this statement in the parts in orange. It isn't the man, rather, the office. He is a retired Pope and Bishop of Rome, but no longer holds that office, so it will enver apply to him again.
never say never.  It wouldn't be the first time.
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« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2013, 04:10:20 PM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.

Americans think religion (and the UK Monarchy) is make believe except for those who endured abuse from any religious figure. 
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« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2013, 04:17:21 PM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.

Americans think religion (and the UK Monarchy) is make believe except for those who endured abuse from any religious figure. 

Huh?
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« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2013, 04:21:13 PM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ



Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.

I thought the skit was forced and sophomoric. Poking fun at authority is ok with me but that was about as unfunny as it comes. Most late-night  comedy about the Papal resignation has fallen flat and was either childish or not funny. Colbert had a few good bits.
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« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2013, 04:24:05 PM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.

Americans think religion (and the UK Monarchy) is make believe except for those who endured abuse from any religious figure. 

Huh?

American elitists maybe....not most of us....
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« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2013, 04:34:49 PM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Haven't watched that show in years. For reasons mostly like that.

You know if they made a skit about the Orthodox selecting a little girl as Ecumenical Patriarch, you wouldn't think the matter were so full of giggles.

Americans think religion (and the UK Monarchy) is make believe except for those who endured abuse from any religious figure. 

Huh?

Sorry.   Embarrassed

There are Americans who believe in a religion.
There are Americans who think religion is make believe (made up).
There are Americans who were abused by a religious figure and no longer believe in religion.
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« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2013, 06:10:06 PM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Does anyone think this skit is the least bit funny, even ignoring the irreverence?  I don't see anything whatsoever humorous about it.

This skit is to where Saturday Night Live has deteriorated; just be irreverent, and it will pass for humor.  I wonder if a similar skit about an Ayatollah would be run by the producers of SNL. 

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« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2013, 06:20:46 PM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.

Vatican is also a mockery - anyone see Saturday Night Live?

The following video, from Saturday Night Live 3/2/13 episode, spoofs CNN's Situation Report and shows comedian Kevin Hart portraying the 9 year old Best Actress nominee who was elected pope in the conclave following Pope Benedict XVI's abdication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuAS-cA7JQ

Does anyone think this skit is the least bit funny, even ignoring the irreverence?  I don't see anything whatsoever humorous about it.

This skit is to where Saturday Night Live has deteriorated; just be irreverent, and it will pass for humor.  I wonder if a similar skit about an Ayatollah would be run by the producers of SNL. 
we all know the answer to that.

There was a day when Sinead O'Connor paid for her irreverence. Are those days gone forever?
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« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2013, 08:10:21 AM »

I think the Catholic faith requires people to believe two mutually exclusive things; that the Pope is just another bishop and, also that he's got special charism that no one else has.

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« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2013, 08:20:28 AM »

I think the Catholic faith requires people to believe two mutually exclusive things; that the Pope is just another bishop and, also that he's got special charism that no one else has.



It is not as much his special charism that is a problem as the nature of his special charism, that is primacy vs vatican 1 definition of it.
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« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2013, 08:26:26 AM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.

Not so. For one thing, you often twist the meaning of "the Vatican" to make it refer to the whole Catholic Church -- or should I say, the whole Roman Communion (which we consider the Catholic Church).
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« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2013, 08:46:36 AM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.

Not so. For one thing, you often twist the meaning of "the Vatican" to make it refer to the whole Catholic Church -- or should I say, the whole Roman Communion (which we consider the Catholic Church).

Well this where Vatican I leads to.
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Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
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« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2013, 10:11:27 AM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.

Not so. For one thing, you often twist the meaning of "the Vatican" to make it refer to the whole Catholic Church -- or should I say, the whole Roman Communion (which we consider the Catholic Church).

Well this where Vatican I leads to.

In a word, No.
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« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2013, 07:04:24 AM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this.  
You meant the Vatican, Father?  

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.

Not so. For one thing, you often twist the meaning of "the Vatican" to make it refer to the whole Catholic Church -- or should I say, the whole Roman Communion (which we consider the Catholic Church).

Well this where Vatican I leads to.

In a word, No.

The Vatican falls, you whole church falls. So yes, as warned st Gregory the Great.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 07:04:46 AM by Napoletani » Logged

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Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
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« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2013, 08:22:23 AM »

A retired Pope is no different than any other retired bishop.  Period.  The only reason anyone is discussing this is because none of us have experienced a retired Bishop of Rome in our lifetimes.  But Catholic theology is clear about this. 
You meant the Vatican, Father? 

On this forum, "Vatican" has been made into a pejorative.
I just report what it does.

Not so. For one thing, you often twist the meaning of "the Vatican" to make it refer to the whole Catholic Church -- or should I say, the whole Roman Communion (which we consider the Catholic Church).

Well this where Vatican I leads to.

In a word, No.

If my in-a-word answer wasn't sufficient (imagine that Cheesy) then here's a longer answer: saying that Vatican I leads to calling the whole Roman Communion (i.e. the Catholic Church) "the Vatican" is plainly false. I'm a member of the Roman Communion, but I'm not part of the Vatican. (Actually, I haven't been in the Vatican since the 90s.)
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