JimCBrooklyn
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« on: April 05, 2011, 06:30:19 AM » |
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I'm curious about the what's what of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. From what I understand, regular Liturgy cannot be served on weekdays during Lent, and this is why such services exist. I also get the impression that these services are a fairly major deal in the states. Thing is, no one seems to give them a second thought here in Russia. Weekday Vespers services are PACKED during Lent, especially during the Canon of St. Andrew of Crete, as are weekend Liturgies, but I went to one Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, and there must have been 10-15 people in the entire place.
A) why would this be? What would the source of the different practices be?
B) can anyone explain the actual nature of a Presanctified Liturgy, in case I'm missing something? It just isn't emphasized here, so I don't know much about it.
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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
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orthonorm
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2011, 01:19:00 PM » |
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I'm curious about the what's what of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. From what I understand, regular Liturgy cannot be served on weekdays during Lent, and this is why such services exist. I also get the impression that these services are a fairly major deal in the states. Thing is, no one seems to give them a second thought here in Russia. Weekday Vespers services are PACKED during Lent, especially during the Canon of St. Andrew of Crete, as are weekend Liturgies, but I went to one Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, and there must have been 10-15 people in the entire place.
A) why would this be? What would the source of the different practices be?
B) can anyone explain the actual nature of a Presanctified Liturgy, in case I'm missing something? It just isn't emphasized here, so I don't know much about it.
Succinct and wonderful discussion with noted source materials: The Great Lent, Fr. Alexander Schmemann Although I doubt it would speak much to the attendance disparity directly, although it might do so indirectly when he discusses the general misunderstanding concerning Lent and its cycle of services in general at the time of the writing. How frequent do the folks you attend with commune in general? |
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 01:19:26 PM by orthonorm »
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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JimCBrooklyn
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2011, 01:22:56 PM » |
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I'm curious about the what's what of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. From what I understand, regular Liturgy cannot be served on weekdays during Lent, and this is why such services exist. I also get the impression that these services are a fairly major deal in the states. Thing is, no one seems to give them a second thought here in Russia. Weekday Vespers services are PACKED during Lent, especially during the Canon of St. Andrew of Crete, as are weekend Liturgies, but I went to one Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, and there must have been 10-15 people in the entire place.
A) why would this be? What would the source of the different practices be?
B) can anyone explain the actual nature of a Presanctified Liturgy, in case I'm missing something? It just isn't emphasized here, so I don't know much about it.
Succinct and wonderful discussion with noted source materials: The Great Lent, Fr. Alexander Schmemann Although I doubt it would speak much to the attendance disparity directly, although it might do so indirectly when he discusses the general misunderstanding concerning Lent and its cycle of services in general at the time of the writing. How frequent do the folks you attend with commune in general? Argh! I've been unable to obtain a copy of that book here; it's been recommended to me a number of times. For the Life of the World is on kindle, but that one is not. I'm dying to read it. People here actually commune very often; unlike ROCOR churches I've seen, almost everyone at a Sunday liturgy communes, though there is basically a 1:1 confession:communion ratio required, unless one has a relationship and understanding with a priest. |
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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
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orthonorm
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2011, 01:54:42 PM » |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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ilyazhito
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2011, 09:58:49 PM » |
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JimCBrooklyn, there is also another book. It is by Nicholas (Nikolai) Uspensky. It may be a bit wordy and too detailed, but it should help.
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Gamliel
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 12:34:20 AM » |
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Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts? I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 12:57:34 AM » |
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Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts? I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.
Just about every jurisdiction probably has one. The Antiochians do, at least. Might be able to find it on the Web site if you don't have access to the book list in The Word magazine. |
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Not to be flippantly dismissive, but something of such a personal nature as this is best addressed by your priest, not by anonymous yahoos on an Internet discussion forum.
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genesisone
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 05:48:00 PM » |
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Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts? I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.
What does your priest use? Or is this a language problem? |
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LBK
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2013, 06:02:56 PM » |
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Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts? I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.
The "little black book", Divine Liturgy Explained, which has bilingual (Greek/English) versions of the two DLs and the Presanctified, has been around for more than 40 years. |
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Gamliel
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 06:12:34 PM » |
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Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts? I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.
What does your priest use? Or is this a language problem? I will have to ask him. No language problem. I found out by e-mailing another parishiner that they printed some copies, but it still may be good to have my own. |
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orthonorm
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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2013, 04:11:09 PM » |
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Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts? I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.
What does your priest use? Or is this a language problem? I will have to ask him. No language problem. I found out by e-mailing another parishiner that they printed some copies, but it still may be good to have my own. I believe this is your juridiction's version in English. http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/lentenliturgies |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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vamrat
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2013, 04:32:01 PM » |
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Isn't the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts just the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Dialogist? I believe he is the one we read the bit in the post communion prayers to, rather than to St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great.
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It is an education process for me as I learn about the psychology of spiritual apostasy. And others get the benefit of perhaps hearing righteousness for the first time.
Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.
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Michał Kalina
proud Podlachian Belarusian parajournalistic engineer in spe
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2013, 04:32:47 PM » |
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St. Gregory is so epic he has 2 different Liturgies.
I hate calling "Presanctified" as Liturgy.
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 04:33:28 PM by Michał Kalina »
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.  Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 08:16:25 AM » |
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Why don't people go? Who knows. Maybe it wasn't always a practice in that particular parish and was picked up in more recent memory. Lots of people here go to Pre-sanctified. They are rather popular.
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elephant
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2013, 08:39:11 AM » |
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Dear Gamliel,
If you pm me I can send a side by side Greek/English version (in a word document) as used in my parish. There are some errors, but it gets the job done.
Love, elephant
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soderquj
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2013, 12:54:58 PM » |
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Gamliel The Presanctified liturgy readings change due to the day and week. the following Church website (GOARCH) has versions for each Wednesday and Friday services of lent. It also has versions for Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of holy week. http://www.tgoc.ut.goarch.org/Select media then downloads then Liturgy then Presanctified liturgy. Hope this helps. |
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« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 12:58:05 PM by soderquj »
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O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
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Deacon Lance
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2013, 10:38:22 PM » |
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St. Gregory is so epic he has 2 different Liturgies. Not really. He was Papal apocrisarius in Constantinople, saw Presanctified there and instituted a version of it in Rome for Good Friday once he was pope. Evening Worship in the Orthodox Church explains it well. |
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My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Deacon Lance
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2013, 10:43:34 PM » |
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I hate calling "Presanctified" as Liturgy. Why? It too is the work of the people just as Vespers, Matins, or any other service. |
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My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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