OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 30, 2014, 02:23:38 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Presanctified Liturgy  (Read 948 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JimCBrooklyn
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate-Diocese of Saint Petersburg/ROCOR-Diocese of Eastern America and New York
Posts: 569


Если бога нет, то все позволено


« on: April 05, 2011, 06:30:19 AM »

I'm curious about the what's what of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. From what I understand, regular Liturgy cannot be served on weekdays during Lent, and this is why such services exist. I also get the impression that these services are a fairly major deal in the states. Thing is, no one seems to give them a second thought here in Russia. Weekday Vespers services are PACKED during Lent, especially during the Canon of St. Andrew of Crete, as are weekend Liturgies, but I went to one Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, and there must have been 10-15 people in the entire place.
A) why would this be? What would the source of the different practices be?
B) can anyone explain the actual nature of a Presanctified Liturgy, in case I'm missing something? It just isn't emphasized here, so I don't know much about it.
Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,466



« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2011, 01:19:00 PM »

I'm curious about the what's what of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. From what I understand, regular Liturgy cannot be served on weekdays during Lent, and this is why such services exist. I also get the impression that these services are a fairly major deal in the states. Thing is, no one seems to give them a second thought here in Russia. Weekday Vespers services are PACKED during Lent, especially during the Canon of St. Andrew of Crete, as are weekend Liturgies, but I went to one Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, and there must have been 10-15 people in the entire place.
A) why would this be? What would the source of the different practices be?
B) can anyone explain the actual nature of a Presanctified Liturgy, in case I'm missing something? It just isn't emphasized here, so I don't know much about it.

Succinct and wonderful discussion with noted source materials:

The Great Lent, Fr. Alexander Schmemann

Although I doubt it would speak much to the attendance disparity directly, although it might do so indirectly when he discusses the general misunderstanding concerning Lent and its cycle of services in general at the time of the writing.

How frequent do the folks you attend with commune in general?  
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 01:19:26 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
JimCBrooklyn
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate-Diocese of Saint Petersburg/ROCOR-Diocese of Eastern America and New York
Posts: 569


Если бога нет, то все позволено


« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2011, 01:22:56 PM »

I'm curious about the what's what of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. From what I understand, regular Liturgy cannot be served on weekdays during Lent, and this is why such services exist. I also get the impression that these services are a fairly major deal in the states. Thing is, no one seems to give them a second thought here in Russia. Weekday Vespers services are PACKED during Lent, especially during the Canon of St. Andrew of Crete, as are weekend Liturgies, but I went to one Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, and there must have been 10-15 people in the entire place.
A) why would this be? What would the source of the different practices be?
B) can anyone explain the actual nature of a Presanctified Liturgy, in case I'm missing something? It just isn't emphasized here, so I don't know much about it.

Succinct and wonderful discussion with noted source materials:

The Great Lent, Fr. Alexander Schmemann

Although I doubt it would speak much to the attendance disparity directly, although it might do so indirectly when he discusses the general misunderstanding concerning Lent and its cycle of services in general at the time of the writing.

How frequent do the folks you attend with commune in general?  

Argh! I've been unable to obtain a copy of that book here; it's been recommended to me a number of times. For the Life of the World is on kindle, but that one is not. I'm dying to read it.

People here actually commune very often; unlike ROCOR churches I've seen, almost everyone at a Sunday liturgy communes, though there is basically a 1:1 confession:communion ratio required, unless one has a relationship and understanding with a priest.
Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,466



« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2011, 01:54:42 PM »

While not within the entire context of the book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jgmnechszvcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=great+lent&hl=en&src=bmrr&ei=QlabTdLjCcS3tgegoqjKBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=presanctified&f=false

Click on pg. 45 which is the chapter covering the Presanctified Gifts.

Google is very generous with the amount of the this text they allow you to view.

FWIW.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
ilyazhito
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 862



« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2011, 09:58:49 PM »

JimCBrooklyn, there is also another book. It is by Nicholas (Nikolai) Uspensky. It may be a bit wordy and too detailed, but it should help.
Logged
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,083



« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 12:34:20 AM »

Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts?  I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 12:57:34 AM »

Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts?  I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.

Just about every jurisdiction probably has one. The Antiochians do, at least. Might be able to find it on the Web site if you don't have access to the book list in The Word magazine.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,481



« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 05:48:00 PM »

Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts?  I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.
What does your priest use? Or is this a language problem?
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,524


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2013, 06:02:56 PM »

Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts?  I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.

The "little black book", Divine Liturgy Explained, which has bilingual (Greek/English) versions of the two DLs and the Presanctified, has been around for more than 40 years.
Logged
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,083



« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 06:12:34 PM »

Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts?  I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.
What does your priest use? Or is this a language problem?
I will have to ask him.  No language problem.  I found out by e-mailing another parishiner that they printed some copies, but it still may be good to have my own.
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,466



« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2013, 04:11:09 PM »

Are there any service books that have been published that contain the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts?  I am looking for printed material that I can use to follow along during the service.
What does your priest use? Or is this a language problem?
I will have to ask him.  No language problem.  I found out by e-mailing another parishiner that they printed some copies, but it still may be good to have my own.

I believe this is your juridiction's version in English.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/lentenliturgies
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,670



« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2013, 04:32:01 PM »

Isn't the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts just the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Dialogist?  I believe he is the one we read the bit in the post communion prayers to, rather than to St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2013, 04:32:47 PM »

St. Gregory is so epic he has 2 different Liturgies.

I hate calling "Presanctified" as Liturgy.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 04:33:28 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,063



« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 08:16:25 AM »

Why don't people go? Who knows.  Maybe it wasn't always a practice in that particular parish and was picked up in more recent memory.  Lots of people here go to Pre-sanctified.  They are rather popular.
Logged

elephant
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 586



« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2013, 08:39:11 AM »

Dear Gamliel,

If you pm me I can send a side by side Greek/English version (in a word document) as used in my parish.  There are some errors, but it gets the job done.


Love, elephant
Logged
soderquj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOAA, Metropolis of Denver
Posts: 234



WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2013, 12:54:58 PM »

Gamliel

The Presanctified liturgy readings change due to the day and week.
the following Church website (GOARCH) has versions for each Wednesday and Friday services of lent.
It also has versions for Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of holy week.
 

http://www.tgoc.ut.goarch.org/

Select media then downloads then Liturgy then Presanctified liturgy.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 12:58:05 PM by soderquj » Logged

O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2013, 10:38:22 PM »

St. Gregory is so epic he has 2 different Liturgies.

Not really.  He was Papal apocrisarius in Constantinople, saw Presanctified there and instituted a version of it in Rome for Good Friday once he was pope.  Evening Worship in the Orthodox Church explains it well.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2013, 10:43:34 PM »

I hate calling "Presanctified" as Liturgy.

Why?  It too is the work of the people just as Vespers, Matins, or any other service.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.094 seconds with 45 queries.