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Author Topic: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition  (Read 4116 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2013, 11:52:59 AM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.
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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2013, 12:01:06 PM »

Why does this even matter?
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« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2013, 12:03:40 PM »

Yes.
Most Jews wouldnt have been, certainly not the Sadducees but Hellenistic forms of Judaism did exist as exemplified by Philo. Galilee was a Hellenised country which is why the Jews called it Galilee of the Gentiles.
Actually, the Sadducees were among the most Hellenized, the Pharisees (and perhaps the Zealots) the least.
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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2013, 12:04:20 PM »

They called it that because it had been conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BC, just like Samaria.
And just like Samaria they didn't consider it Jewish.

 
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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2013, 12:09:44 PM »

Actually, the Sadducees were among the most Hellenized, the Pharisees (and perhaps the Zealots) the least.
Yeah sure the Hellenism is really obvious in their theology ha ha
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« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2013, 12:10:05 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.
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« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2013, 12:10:25 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

I think few would dispute that Hellenism have had a great influence on Christianity. The main thing I dissagree with Pericles on, is the believe rthat christian theology should be dependant on hellenistic philosophy.
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« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2013, 12:15:26 PM »

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.

The problem is whether Christianity (Jesus of Nazareth and the Apostles) originated with the Jews or the Greeks, not what it became after the Resurrection and the mission to the Gentiles. Pericles seems to argue that Our Lord was a Hellene, a non-Jew even.

Most Jews resisted Hellenization heroically, like no other population the Hellenes conquered. Anyone who reads the books of the Maccabees can see that. And those proud Jewish Galilean peasants even more so - one of their rebellions against the oppressors is even alluded to in the Gospel (Luke 13:1-5).

Our Lord said he was sent to gather the "lost sheep of Israel", he commanded his disciples to avoid the cities of the Samaritans and the Gentiles. He interacted with foreigners (the Samaritan, the Syrophoenician woman) like a Jew. He claimed 'salvation comes from the Jews'. Only after the resurrection (Mt. 28:19; Pentecost, according to Acts) did he authorise his disciples to proclaim the Gospel in Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8 ).     
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« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2013, 12:19:36 PM »

Actually, the Sadducees were among the most Hellenized, the Pharisees (and perhaps the Zealots) the least.
Yeah sure the Hellenism is really obvious in their theology ha ha

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I must correct myself in a reference to henry Ford in which your source article quoted an article from his publication. Any similarities between his Semitic views & those of his publication cannot be verified of course. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2013, 12:22:41 PM »

Why does this even matter?

Do half the things we debate to death on here even matter?   Wink
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« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2013, 12:24:51 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.
Thanks for that, yes they think I'm some sort of Greek Nationalist, despite the fact that I'm British with no Greek ancestry whatsoever.
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« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2013, 12:25:27 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

CC: Ansgar

Q: Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?
A: He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

Ah.  I figured it would be best to figure out if this is an ongoing debate from other threads or not.  I haven't really read anything else he's posted.  I just thought there was some Peter vs Paul action going on.
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« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2013, 12:26:36 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.
Thanks for that, yes they think I'm some sort of Greek Nationalist, despite the fact that I'm British with no Greek ancestry whatsoever.

Do you deny that Christ was Jewish and do you believe that Christianity should be dependent on Greek Philosophy?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 12:28:51 PM by vamrat » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2013, 12:27:39 PM »

Why does this even matter?

Do half the things we debate to death on here even matter?   Wink

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« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2013, 12:29:49 PM »

They called it that because it had been conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BC, just like Samaria.
And just like Samaria they didn't consider it Jewish.

Like all Jewish Galileans, Our Lord had to cross Samaria to go to Jerusalem for the Jewish Holidays. Samaria was a non-Jewish enclave, seldom hospitable to the Jews passing through their land.

"When the days drew near for him to be taken up, he set his face to go to Jerusalem. And he sent messengers ahead of him. On their way they entered a village of the Samaritans to make ready for him; but they did not receive him, because his face was set toward Jerusalem. When his disciples James and John saw it, they said, “Lord, do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” But he turned and rebuked them." (Lk 9:51-55)

"He left Judea and started back to Galilee. But he had to go through Samaria." (Jn 4:3-4).
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« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2013, 12:36:59 PM »

Do you deny that Christ was Jewish and do you believe that Christianity should be dependent on Greek Philosophy?
I question the validity of popular perceptions of Christs Jewishness in terms of the religion Christ established I also accept the importance of Hellenistic philosophical and theological themes in the development of early Christianity.

Such a naughty boy!

Oh and I really dislike modern attempts to present Christianity as a Jewish sect that needs to be further Judaised, hence the OP.
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« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2013, 12:37:07 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

CC: Ansgar

Q: Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?
A: He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

Ah.  I figured it would be best to figure out if this is an ongoing debate from other threads or not.  I haven't really read anything else he's posted.  I just thought there was some Peter vs Paul action going on.

Here's some context for this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49806.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49849.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4959.msg879231.html#msg879231
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« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2013, 12:45:37 PM »

Shocking, isn't it?
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« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2013, 12:52:04 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

CC: Ansgar

Q: Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?
A: He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

Ah.  I figured it would be best to figure out if this is an ongoing debate from other threads or not.  I haven't really read anything else he's posted.  I just thought there was some Peter vs Paul action going on.

I can't say I have anything against Pericles, personally. I just disagree with him on some issues.
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« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2013, 04:47:51 PM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
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« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2013, 09:59:40 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
That would appear to be the case only if you neglect look at the quality of posts. Clearly one that does support my OP (Vamrat)has studied the subject and has submitted a well written post. Those against reject my Hellenistic outloook, clearly don't have a grasp of the subject and simply post banal rebuttals of a humorous nature.
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« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2013, 10:02:50 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
That would appear to be the case only if you neglect look at the quality of posts. Clearly one that does support my OP (Vamrat)has studied the subject and has submitted a well written post. Those against reject my Hellenistic outloook, clearly don't have a grasp of the subject and simply post banal rebuttals of a humorous nature.

Your source article seems so reliable (joke). What does Americanist mythology have to do with Christ who lived as a Jew when a man, who fulfilled Hebraic law, & the apostolic faith that came from Jewish apostles?
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« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2013, 10:20:04 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
That would appear to be the case only if you neglect look at the quality of posts. Clearly one that does support my OP (Vamrat)has studied the subject and has submitted a well written post. Those against reject my Hellenistic outloook, clearly don't have a grasp of the subject and simply post banal rebuttals of a humorous nature.

You may be right. OTH, I do not think so. Here is another humorous bit, this time it is not a rebuttal but an advice.

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/k/kenny+rogers/the+gambler_20077886.html
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« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2013, 11:25:52 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
That would appear to be the case only if you neglect look at the quality of posts. Clearly one that does support my OP (Vamrat)has studied the subject and has submitted a well written post. Those against reject my Hellenistic outloook, clearly don't have a grasp of the subject and simply post banal rebuttals of a humorous nature.

You may be right. OTH, I do not think so. Here is another humorous bit, this time it is not a rebuttal but an advice.

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/k/kenny+rogers/the+gambler_20077886.html

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« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2013, 11:38:05 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
That would appear to be the case only if you neglect look at the quality of posts. Clearly one that does support my OP (Vamrat)has studied the subject and has submitted a well written post. Those against reject my Hellenistic outloook, clearly don't have a grasp of the subject and simply post banal rebuttals of a humorous nature.

You may be right. OTH, I do not think so. Here is another humorous bit, this time it is not a rebuttal but an advice.

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/k/kenny+rogers/the+gambler_20077886.html
That is good advice, in ordinary circumstances.
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« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2013, 11:41:08 AM »

Quote
What does Americanist mythology have to do with Christ who lived as a Jew when a man, who fulfilled Hebraic law, & the apostolic faith that came from Jewish apostles?
Nice and cosy theology for a 'Fluff-bunny' ha ha
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« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2013, 11:54:29 AM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.
Is that what that dumb thread is about?
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« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2013, 11:55:46 AM »

Actually, the Sadducees were among the most Hellenized, the Pharisees (and perhaps the Zealots) the least.
Yeah sure the Hellenism is really obvious in their theology ha ha
Actually, yes.
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« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2013, 12:05:42 PM »

The truth of the matter is:   (?)   http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ-great-britain.html
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« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2013, 01:15:24 AM »

Quote
What does Americanist mythology have to do with Christ who lived as a Jew when a man, who fulfilled Hebraic law, & the apostolic faith that came from Jewish apostles?
Nice and cosy theology for a 'Fluff-bunny' ha ha
Who are you calling a fluff-bunny?
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« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2013, 01:44:03 AM »

What about the East-Syriac, Ethiopian, Armenian, Indian or Slavic Christians? Some of them had little or no contact with Hellenism. What about Latin Christendom?

They're all heretics.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2013, 01:47:13 AM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.
Thanks for that, yes they think I'm some sort of Greek Nationalist, despite the fact that I'm British with no Greek ancestry whatsoever.

That explains things even more.
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« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2013, 03:25:05 AM »

Oh, for crying out loud.

I'm not a huge fan of the term 'Judeo-Christian' (as applied to Western Culture), as I think the pre-Incarnation Jewish heritage of the Christian faith is implied by the word Christian and I don't think Judaism has really shaped the West all that much (certainly not in any way comparable to Christianity).

But to claim that Christ isn't an ethnic Jew...

Or that St. Moses the God-Seer is a false prophet...

(facepalm)
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« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2013, 04:25:04 AM »

I have really never understood the term judeo-christian. Why can't we just be christians?

Put me down for this.

Obviously Christianity has Jewish roots (along with Hellenistic influence), but what is the term Judeo-Christian _____ even supposed to mean?  Wouldn't the "Judeo" bit that is apparent, e.g. the 10 Commandments, already be implied by the "Christian"?

Also, it's almost always used to describe a culture or nation that has been predominately Christian, not Jewish.  

But how could I forget the Jewish-Christian nations of Ireland, Portugal, Kenya, Chile, and Finland.

Edit: I should've just read OrthoNoob's post above mine.
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« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2013, 06:46:42 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
Doesn't mean he's wrong.

As for the OP, I agree.

Let's leave the "Judeo" Christian nonsense to the Evangelical kooks like Robertson and Hagee.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2013, 08:22:26 AM »

The Trinity was fairly closely expressed in the book of Enoch. For ex.

Chapter 45

1Parable the second, respecting these who deny the name of the habitation of the holy ones, and of the Lord of spirits.

2Heaven they shall not ascend, nor shall they come on the earth. This shall be the portion of sinners, who deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and who are thus reserved for the day of punishment and of affliction.

3In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.

4In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it, and illuminate it for ever.

5I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.



Is this from 1 Enoch or 2 Enoch
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« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2013, 09:16:35 AM »

Quote
What does Americanist mythology have to do with Christ who lived as a Jew when a man, who fulfilled Hebraic law, & the apostolic faith that came from Jewish apostles?
Nice and cosy theology for a 'Fluff-bunny' ha ha
Who are you calling a fluff-bunny?

Another question. Are you using "fluff-bunny" interchangeably with "fluffy bunny" and in the following sense?

"Fluffy Bunny, or Fluffbunny, is a pejorative expression used since at least 1987 in Wicca (and in Neopaganism generally) to refer to adherents of the religion who are thought to be superficial or faddish. They are considered to dislike darker elements and emphasise goodness, light, eclecticism and elements taken from the New Age movement, or follow it as a fad.

Catherine Noble-Beyer has defined Fluffy Bunnies in the following terms:

    The primary definition of a Fluffy Bunny is one who refuses to learn, refuses to think, and refuses to consider the possibility that they could possibly ever be wrong. Generally, they find one book, author or website and follow it as if it were the holy word, frequently denouncing anything that disagrees with it as obviously false. Fluffy Bunnies rarely get past the defense of "Because [insert favorite author here] says so." Sometimes they don't even get that far, responding to any and all criticism with something like, "You're just trying to persecute me!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluffy_bunny
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« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2013, 12:41:47 PM »

The Trinity was fairly closely expressed in the book of Enoch. For ex.

Chapter 45

1Parable the second, respecting these who deny the name of the habitation of the holy ones, and of the Lord of spirits.

2Heaven they shall not ascend, nor shall they come on the earth. This shall be the portion of sinners, who deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and who are thus reserved for the day of punishment and of affliction.

3In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.

4In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it, and illuminate it for ever.

5I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/ethiopian/enoch/2parables/parables.htm

Is this from 1 Enoch or 2 Enoch
1st Enoch in the ethiopian canon.     
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« Reply #83 on: February 25, 2013, 09:11:25 AM »

...I agree...Let's leave the "Judeo" Christian nonsense to the Evangelical kooks like Robertson and Hagee.  Roll Eyes
Thanks and this lot Jews for Jesus
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« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2013, 09:25:04 AM »

Pericles--This is an official request. Please answer my question in reply 81 above. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2013, 09:35:03 AM »

...I agree...Let's leave the "Judeo" Christian nonsense to the Evangelical kooks like Robertson and Hagee.  Roll Eyes
Thanks and this lot Jews for Jesus

Their error being similar to yours: the inability to distinguish between the Judaism of the Old Testament, and the Jewishness of Christ and the Apostles, and the Talmudic Judaism of the Rabbis and the Zionist state in occupied Palestine. You're two sides of the same coin.
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« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2013, 10:44:29 AM »

Pericles--This is an official request. Please answer my question in reply 81 above. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
It doesn't define the term as I was employing it, no.
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« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2013, 12:47:42 PM »

Pericles--This is an official request. Please answer my question in reply 81 above. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
It doesn't define the term as I was employing it, no.

Please tell us how you meant it. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2013, 01:19:19 PM »

Dear Pericles,

You write:

"Reviewing the last two thousand years of Western Christian history there is really no evidence of a Judeo-Christian tradition and this has not escaped the attention of honest Christian and Jewish commentators."
I find the term "Judeo-Christian" to be confusing. On one hand, Christianity's roots are in ancient Judaism. But on the other hand, the practices of Christianity, ancient Judaism, and modern Rabbinical Judaism are clearly distinguishable- and the first and the last of these are sometimes opposing.

So the main confusion is whether it refers to the commonalities between them or all of them taken as a whole. If the latter, then things said about one group could be mistakenly attributed to the other.

However, since you particularly object to this term, then it doesn't seem to match Orthodoxy when you say:
The roots of the Judeo-Christian Tradition can be found in the Jewish Christianity of the first century and later in Arianism.
The problem is that Orthodoxy itself sees the Christianity practiced by 1st century Jewish Christians as a foundational part of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2013, 03:23:56 AM »

Please tell us how you meant it. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
Fluffy means vague and undefined.
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