Author Topic: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition  (Read 6587 times)

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Offline Pericles

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Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« on: February 20, 2013, 07:35:42 AM »
"Reviewing the last two thousand years of Western Christian history there is really no evidence of a Judeo-Christian tradition and this has not escaped the attention of honest Christian and Jewish commentators."
 
Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition

The Judeo-Christian Tradition is basically an American disease of the soul which has unfortunately spread to all corners of the western world and in my recent experience has found a home is some western Orthodox converts. The roots of the Judeo-Christian Tradition can be found in the Jewish Christianity of the first century and later in Arianism.

Christianity ≠ Judaism!
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2013, 07:41:52 AM »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

Ἀπ' ὃσα ἒκαμα κι ἀπ’ ὃσα εἶπα
νὰ μὴ ζητήσουνε νὰ βροῦν ποιός ἢμουν
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2013, 08:28:32 AM »

Oh please don't try to make out you agree with the article, thats a laugh! :D
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2013, 08:39:55 AM »
I have really never understood the term judeo-christian. Why can't we just be christians?
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2013, 08:51:53 AM »
I have really never understood the term judeo-christian. Why can't we just be christians?
I couldn't agree more :)
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2013, 08:55:54 AM »
Just for the record, I have never understood the term helleno-christian either. It seems to imply that Christianity owes its existence to a single culture.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2013, 08:56:02 AM »
There’s No Such Thing as Judeo-Christian Values

From a Jewish perspective.

“Judeo-Christian” is as valid a concept as happy-joylessness, or tall dwarves."

"Jews and Christians differ on every single fundamental principle—even on the meaning of core Scriptural texts. More crucially, Christians rely on the Old Testament for legal delineation; whereas Jews rely solely upon our rabbinic tradition. We never, ever turn to our Bible for legal guidance, only to our rabbinic literature. To suggest that our Sages had anything at all in common with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Carter or Pat Robertson is a slap in the face of 2500 years of scholarship."


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Offline LBK

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2013, 09:02:46 AM »
Uh-oh. I can smell a "Greeks are the center of the universe" thread in the making .....  ::)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 09:04:01 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2013, 09:02:57 AM »
Just for the record, I have never understood the term helleno-christian either. It seems to imply that Christianity owes its existence to a single culture.
The term Helleno-Christian has more validity for us Gentiles/Greeks as it implies the universality of Christianity. Unfortunately the term itself has, as you rightly point out, has come to imply Greek ethnicity, culture and nationalism rather than the Hellenistic universalism it originally meant.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2013, 09:07:51 AM »
I'm sorry, but I just can't see how the term "hellenic" can be considered universal. The word hellenic means something that relates to Greece or greeks.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2013, 09:13:37 AM »
*sings* ♫ "The best part of waking up... is hellenic threads on oc.net..." ♫
Jesus ♫   ♫   ♫   ♫
Jesus ♫   ♫   ♫   ♫
The original bleeding heart ♫
That is what thou art ♫
Jesus ♫   ♫   ♫   ♫

Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2013, 09:17:33 AM »
I'm sorry, but I just can't see how the term "hellenic" can be considered universal. The word hellenic means something that relates to Greece or greeks.
Hellenic isnt universal it's ethnic and Hellenistic does not mean the same thing as Hellenic, it came into use after Alexander the Great and refers to the muti-ethnic world of the Greek Empire. Hellenic = Ethnic / Hellenistic = Universal. Which is why the Jews regard everyone else as Greeks and why Gentile and Greek came to mean the same thing.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2013, 09:25:25 AM »
I'm sorry, but I just can't see how the term "hellenic" can be considered universal. The word hellenic means something that relates to Greece or greeks.
Hellenic isnt universal it's ethnic and Hellenistic does not mean the same thing as Hellenic, it came into use after Alexander the Great and refers to the muti-ethnic world of the Greek Empire. Hellenic = Ethnic / Hellenistic = Universal. Which is why the Jews regard everyone else as Greeks and why Gentile and Greek came to mean the same thing.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hellenistic

I would say that christianity owes much to both jewish and hellenic culture.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 09:28:08 AM »
I'm a Philhellene and all but threads like these go too far.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2013, 09:39:57 AM »
I would say that christianity owes much to both jewish and hellenic culture.

Hellenism Wikipedia

Persian + Hellenic = Hellenistic
Egyptian + Hellenic = Hellenistic
Jewish + Hellenic = Hellenistic
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 09:42:11 AM by Pericles »
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2013, 09:41:44 AM »
Not all jews at the time of Christ werre hellenic.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2013, 09:43:54 AM »
Not all jews at the time of Christ werre hellenic.
I assume you mean Hellenistic?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 09:47:16 AM by Pericles »
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2013, 09:45:37 AM »
Not all jews at the time of Christ werre hellenic.
I assume you mean Hellenistic?

Yes.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2013, 09:47:31 AM »
Yes.
Most Jews wouldnt have been, certainly not the Sadducees but Hellenistic forms of Judaism did exist as exemplified by Philo. Galilee was a Hellenised country which is why the Jews called it Galilee of the Gentiles.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2013, 09:56:09 AM »
Yes.
Most Jews wouldnt have been, certainly not the Sadducees but Hellenistic forms of Judaism did exist as exemplified by Philo. Galilee was a Hellenised country which is why the Jews called it Galilee of the Gentiles.
Yes, but since most jews were not hellenized, Christianity still sprung up in a jewish culture. It's theology has its origins in the jewish faith.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2013, 10:02:07 AM »
The Maccabees didn't seem to like Hellenism.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
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-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

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Offline recent convert

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2013, 10:11:46 AM »
Hellenism rather than this Judeo-Christian myth is so obvious in the Gospe    ::), I mean ponder this familiar passage:


Mark 12:28-34
King James Version (KJV)

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 10:15:05 AM by recent convert »
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2013, 10:15:23 AM »
[[/quote]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 10:15:55 AM by recent convert »
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2013, 10:32:12 AM »
Yes, but since most jews were not hellenized, Christianity still sprung up in a jewish culture. It's theology has its origins in the jewish faith.
Apart from the fact that Christianity emerged in Galilee not Judaea. Well of course it sprung up in a Jewish context as part of a wider Hellenistic gentile world yet it was from the start a stand-alone religion and not a sect of Judaism. Orthodox Christian theology would not be possible without Hellenistic learning; the Trinity and incarnation are simply not possible in Judaism, no way not ever.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 10:35:37 AM by Pericles »
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2013, 10:33:40 AM »
Hellenism rather than this Judeo-Christian myth is so obvious in the Gospe    ::),
Of course, it was written in Greek (Hellenic) by a Greek (Hellenistic) speaking author preaching to Greeks (Gentiles). ::)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 10:36:52 AM by Pericles »
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2013, 10:38:14 AM »
Yes, but since most jews were not hellenized, Christianity still sprung up in a jewish culture. It's theology has its origins in the jewish faith.
Apart from the fact that Christianity emerged in Galilee not Judaea. Well of course it sprung up in a Jewish context as part of a wider Hellenistic gentile world yet it was from the start a stand-alone religion and not a sect of Judaism. Orthodox Christian theology would not be possible without Hellenistic learning; the Trinity and incarnation are simply not possible in Judaism, no way not ever.
You make it sound as if the Trinity couldn't exist without hellenism.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2013, 10:39:33 AM »
Why do we keep having stupid threads like this?  Anyone with a basic understanding of history can clearly see that Christianity has significant roots in both Jewish and Greek thought.  This is not a new discovery.
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2013, 10:40:54 AM »
Hellenism rather than this Judeo-Christian myth is so obvious in the Gospe    ::),
Of course, it was written in Greek (Hellenic) by a Greek (Hellenistic) speaking author preaching to Greeks (Gentiles). ::)

Perhaps like His "brothe"r, St. James and His mother the Virgin Mary?   ::) 
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2013, 10:46:58 AM »
You make it sound as if the Trinity couldn't exist without hellenism.
The theological doctrine of the trinity couldn't have existed without Hellenistic Philosophy, in Helllenistic philosophy the trinity had already existed since Plato.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2013, 10:49:48 AM »
Why do we keep having stupid threads like this?  Anyone with a basic understanding of history can clearly see that Christianity has significant roots in both Jewish and Greek thought.  This is not a new discovery.

+1



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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2013, 10:50:56 AM »
You make it sound as if the Trinity couldn't exist without hellenism.
The theological doctrine of the trinity couldn't have existed without Hellenistic Philosophy, in Helllenistic philosophy the trinity had already existed since Plato.

Demiurges =/= Trinity.

I wasn't baptised in the name of Plato, Socrates and Aristotle and neither are you, I hope.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 10:51:44 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2013, 10:51:44 AM »
What about the East-Syriac, Ethiopian, Armenian, Indian or Slavic Christians? Some of them had little or no contact with Hellenism. What about Latin Christendom?

Offline recent convert

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2013, 10:52:44 AM »
The Trinity was fairly closely expressed in the book of Enoch. For ex.

Chapter 45

1Parable the second, respecting these who deny the name of the habitation of the holy ones, and of the Lord of spirits.

2Heaven they shall not ascend, nor shall they come on the earth. This shall be the portion of sinners, who deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and who are thus reserved for the day of punishment and of affliction.

3In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.

4In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it, and illuminate it for ever.

5I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.

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Offline Romaios

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2013, 10:54:45 AM »
You make it sound as if the Trinity couldn't exist without hellenism.
The theological doctrine of the trinity couldn't have existed without Hellenistic Philosophy, in Helllenistic philosophy the trinity had already existed since Plato.

The theological doctrine of the Trinity could not have existed without God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If we believed it to be only a philosophical concept, we couldn't call ourselves worshipers of the living God.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2013, 10:56:58 AM »
You make it sound as if the Trinity couldn't exist without hellenism.
The theological doctrine of the trinity couldn't have existed without Hellenistic Philosophy, in Helllenistic philosophy the trinity had already existed since Plato.
The Trinity is the Trinity. Even if hellenism hadn't existed, Christ would still have been incarnated and christians would still believe in the Trinity.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2013, 10:57:08 AM »
Perhaps like His "brothe"r, St. James and His mother the Virgin Mary?   ::) 
Yea right well the author is traditionally Mark the Evangelist a disciple of Peter FYI his name Markos is of course Greek ::)
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2013, 10:58:46 AM »
Even if Judaism hadn't existed, Christ would still have been incarnated and christians would still believe in the Trinity.
yup works both ways fella  ;)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 10:59:32 AM by Pericles »
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2013, 11:05:12 AM »
Even if Judaism hadn't existed, Christ would still have been incarnated and christians would still believe in the Trinity.
yup works both ways fella  ;)
The difference between you and me is that I don't see judaism as you see hellenism.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 11:06:29 AM by Ansgar »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2013, 11:12:30 AM »
Hellenism rather than this Judeo-Christian myth is so obvious in the Gospel    ::),
Of course, it was written in Greek (Hellenic) by a Greek (Hellenistic) speaking author preaching to Greeks (Gentiles). ::)

Except for Matthew, the other Evangelists felt they had to explain Jewish customs and beliefs to the Gentile reader. The subtext is clearly Semitic - sometimes the language itself bears the influence of Semitic thought and expression. The Lord's prayer, for instance, was clearly spoken in Aramaic and preserved in Greek translation in the Gospels.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2013, 11:18:03 AM »
How odd that the author of Hebrews did not list all the Greek "cloud of witnesses".  Must have been an oversight.  Or perhaps all those ancient saints were really Hellenists. Tricksy Bible.  ::)

Of course, Paul does state in Romans 3:

What advantage then has the Greek, or what is the profit of the Delphinian Oracle? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.

So I guess Pericles is right afterall.  My bad.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 11:19:27 AM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2013, 11:28:11 AM »
Galilee was a Hellenised country which is why the Jews called it Galilee of the Gentiles.

Tiberias and Sepphoris were hellenised - the rest, hardly.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49849.msg879673.html#msg879673

Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2013, 11:31:17 AM »
The difference between you and me is that I don't see judaism as you see hellenism.
Judaism and Hellenism couldn't be more different.

Judaism = Ethnic - Hellenism = Universal
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2013, 11:32:25 AM »
Tiberias and Sepphoris were hellenised - the rest, hardly.
Oh right that'll be why the Jews called it Galilee of some Gentiles  ::)
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2013, 11:34:04 AM »
Perhaps like His "brothe"r, St. James and His mother the Virgin Mary?   ::) 
Yea right well the author is traditionally Mark the Evangelist a disciple of Peter FYI his name Markos is of course Greek ::)
[/quote

St. Mark was a Jew by birth. Oh, I know we can focus on St. Timothy to prove our Hellenic ( & non Judaic origins). BTW, one source quoted in the OP source article was from Henry Ford ::)
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2013, 11:45:19 AM »
Tiberias and Sepphoris were hellenised - the rest, hardly.
Oh right that'll be why the Jews called it Galilee of some Gentiles  ::)

They called it that because it had been conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BC, just like Samaria.

It became Jewish once more after the Hasmoneans conquered it back - apparently, a Jewish element survived in Galilee even under Assyrian and Persian rule.

Quote
There is biblical evidence for connections between Israelite elements in Galilee and Judah after the Assyrian conquest (2 Chr 30:10–11; 2 Kgs 21:19; 23:36), and it has been suggested that the cultural difference between Galilee and Samaria had its origins in the fact that the Assyrians settled people from other parts of their empire in Samaria but did not do so in Galilee (Tadmor 1967). The two remaining questions are whether or not there were differences between Galilee and Samaria prior to this, and in which parts of Galilee a Jewish population survived and continued into the Second Temple period.

Anchor Bible Dictionary, s.v. "Galilee".

 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 11:46:35 AM by Romaios »