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Author Topic: What did Christ mean when he said "Call no man Rabbi, Father, or Master"?  (Read 490 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: June 05, 2013, 05:34:11 PM »

I know some of us have argued this point several times.  I've heard the Eastern Orthodox apologetics (and have known them).  Not interested in the argument.  I'm interested in learning the EO take.

The scripture in question is: Matthew 23:
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

I'm curious what the Eastern Orthodox think of the following:

1) Why did Christ say this?
2) What did he mean by it exactly?
3) How can the Eastern Orthodox apply this command to their lives?

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SolEX01
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 05:58:32 PM »

If you already know the answer, why ask the question?   Huh
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 06:07:13 PM »

Huh?  I'm confused.  You are not interested in the EO apologetics of the passages, but instead want the EO take?  What is the difference?  Huh
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 06:34:45 PM »

One of the interpretations I've heard is that Christ was telling that to His Apostles so that they won't depart from him and seek other teachers and teaching that is outside of Him.
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 07:14:31 PM »

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/call_no_man_father
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pensateomnia
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 07:45:21 PM »

Huh?  I'm confused.  You are not interested in the EO apologetics of the passages, but instead want the EO take?  What is the difference?  Huh

He is asking "what is the constructive theological or spiritual meaning of this teaching by Jesus" not "how do you justify calling priests 'father'?".
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 09:07:44 PM »

Huh?  I'm confused.  You are not interested in the EO apologetics of the passages, but instead want the EO take?  What is the difference?  Huh

He is asking "what is the constructive theological or spiritual meaning of this teaching by Jesus" not "how do you justify calling priests 'father'?".

Ah, that makes sense to me now.  Thanks.

Carry on.  Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2013, 09:48:53 AM »

I know some of us have argued this point several times.  I've heard the Eastern Orthodox apologetics (and have known them).  Not interested in the argument.  I'm interested in learning the EO take.

The scripture in question is: Matthew 23:
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

I'm curious what the Eastern Orthodox think of the following:

1) Why did Christ say this?
2) What did he mean by it exactly?
3) How can the Eastern Orthodox apply this command to their lives?



I took this literally for a number of years before I became Orthodox.  I stopped calling my biological father "dad" or any such name. 

What is interesting is that it doesn't say "call no man 'Father'" but "call no man your father".  By this standard it is wrong to even refer to someone as your father, not so much as a title, but as a designation of their relationship to you (if one were to take it very literally of course).

Basically, those who use it against the RC and EO practice of calling our priests "Father" have not read it clearly.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2013, 11:50:59 AM »

Huh?  I'm confused.  You are not interested in the EO apologetics of the passages, but instead want the EO take?  What is the difference?  Huh


Yes.

Apologetics are explanations against arguments.   


I would like to know from an Eastern Orthodox standing, why Christ said this, what was his teaching on this, and how an Eastern Orthodox Christian can apply these commands into their lives.
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 01:07:44 PM »

Huh?  I'm confused.  You are not interested in the EO apologetics of the passages, but instead want the EO take?  What is the difference?  Huh


Yes.

Apologetics are explanations against arguments.   


I would like to know from an Eastern Orthodox standing, why Christ said this, what was his teaching on this, and how an Eastern Orthodox Christian can apply these commands into their lives.

I don't know if there is an "official" Orthodox position, but the way I understand that passage is that Christ is cautioning against those who would put forth their own doctrine like Shammai and Hillel of his day, and Origen, Arian and Nestorius, etc of the future.  He does not want His followers following a man's teaching and that man would be the father or teacher of that doctrine.  Instead, he calls His followers to be faithful to His teachings.  My understanding of the Pharisees was they enjoyed coming up with hypothetical and speculative doctrines and then teaching them to others so that they looked more spiritual than those around them.  The context the passage has Christ contrasting the "call no man father" with his examples of the pride and hypocrisy of the Pharisees.
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2013, 01:23:53 PM »

IMO: humility, example, hyberpole.
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Romaios
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2013, 10:31:30 PM »

Messianic prophecies fulfilled:

Quote from: Jeremiah 31
“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Quote from: Isaiah 54:13
All your children will be taught by the LORD, and great will be their peace.

Quote from: Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

Quote from: John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 10:41:16 PM by Romaios » Logged
yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 09:41:20 PM »

Messianic prophecies fulfilled:

Quote from: Jeremiah 31
“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Quote from: Isaiah 54:13
All your children will be taught by the LORD, and great will be their peace.

Quote from: Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

Quote from: John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


Is this the official EO position that it was just messianic prophecies fulfilled?
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orthonorm
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 11:35:37 PM »

Women Priestesses.
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Romaios
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 11:58:44 PM »

Women Priestesses.

No - Gerontissas and Ammas.  Smiley 
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