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Author Topic: Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition  (Read 4003 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 20, 2013, 07:35:42 AM »

"Reviewing the last two thousand years of Western Christian history there is really no evidence of a Judeo-Christian tradition and this has not escaped the attention of honest Christian and Jewish commentators."
 
Wake Up To The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition

The Judeo-Christian Tradition is basically an American disease of the soul which has unfortunately spread to all corners of the western world and in my recent experience has found a home is some western Orthodox converts. The roots of the Judeo-Christian Tradition can be found in the Jewish Christianity of the first century and later in Arianism.

Christianity ≠ Judaism!
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2013, 07:41:52 AM »

Christianity ≠ Judaism!

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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2013, 08:28:32 AM »


Oh please don't try to make out you agree with the article, thats a laugh! Cheesy
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2013, 08:39:55 AM »

I have really never understood the term judeo-christian. Why can't we just be christians?
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2013, 08:51:53 AM »

I have really never understood the term judeo-christian. Why can't we just be christians?
I couldn't agree more Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2013, 08:55:54 AM »

Just for the record, I have never understood the term helleno-christian either. It seems to imply that Christianity owes its existence to a single culture.
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2013, 08:56:02 AM »

There’s No Such Thing as Judeo-Christian Values

From a Jewish perspective.

“Judeo-Christian” is as valid a concept as happy-joylessness, or tall dwarves."

"Jews and Christians differ on every single fundamental principle—even on the meaning of core Scriptural texts. More crucially, Christians rely on the Old Testament for legal delineation; whereas Jews rely solely upon our rabbinic tradition. We never, ever turn to our Bible for legal guidance, only to our rabbinic literature. To suggest that our Sages had anything at all in common with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Carter or Pat Robertson is a slap in the face of 2500 years of scholarship."


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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2013, 09:02:46 AM »

Uh-oh. I can smell a "Greeks are the center of the universe" thread in the making .....  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2013, 09:02:57 AM »

Just for the record, I have never understood the term helleno-christian either. It seems to imply that Christianity owes its existence to a single culture.
The term Helleno-Christian has more validity for us Gentiles/Greeks as it implies the universality of Christianity. Unfortunately the term itself has, as you rightly point out, has come to imply Greek ethnicity, culture and nationalism rather than the Hellenistic universalism it originally meant.
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2013, 09:07:51 AM »

I'm sorry, but I just can't see how the term "hellenic" can be considered universal. The word hellenic means something that relates to Greece or greeks.
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2013, 09:13:37 AM »

*sings* ♫ "The best part of waking up... is hellenic threads on oc.net..." ♫
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2013, 09:17:33 AM »

I'm sorry, but I just can't see how the term "hellenic" can be considered universal. The word hellenic means something that relates to Greece or greeks.
Hellenic isnt universal it's ethnic and Hellenistic does not mean the same thing as Hellenic, it came into use after Alexander the Great and refers to the muti-ethnic world of the Greek Empire. Hellenic = Ethnic / Hellenistic = Universal. Which is why the Jews regard everyone else as Greeks and why Gentile and Greek came to mean the same thing.
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2013, 09:25:25 AM »

I'm sorry, but I just can't see how the term "hellenic" can be considered universal. The word hellenic means something that relates to Greece or greeks.
Hellenic isnt universal it's ethnic and Hellenistic does not mean the same thing as Hellenic, it came into use after Alexander the Great and refers to the muti-ethnic world of the Greek Empire. Hellenic = Ethnic / Hellenistic = Universal. Which is why the Jews regard everyone else as Greeks and why Gentile and Greek came to mean the same thing.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hellenistic

I would say that christianity owes much to both jewish and hellenic culture.
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 09:28:08 AM »

I'm a Philhellene and all but threads like these go too far.
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2013, 09:39:57 AM »

I would say that christianity owes much to both jewish and hellenic culture.

Hellenism Wikipedia

Persian + Hellenic = Hellenistic
Egyptian + Hellenic = Hellenistic
Jewish + Hellenic = Hellenistic
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2013, 09:41:44 AM »

Not all jews at the time of Christ werre hellenic.
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2013, 09:43:54 AM »

Not all jews at the time of Christ werre hellenic.
I assume you mean Hellenistic?
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2013, 09:45:37 AM »

Not all jews at the time of Christ werre hellenic.
I assume you mean Hellenistic?

Yes.
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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2013, 09:47:31 AM »

Yes.
Most Jews wouldnt have been, certainly not the Sadducees but Hellenistic forms of Judaism did exist as exemplified by Philo. Galilee was a Hellenised country which is why the Jews called it Galilee of the Gentiles.
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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2013, 09:56:09 AM »

Yes.
Most Jews wouldnt have been, certainly not the Sadducees but Hellenistic forms of Judaism did exist as exemplified by Philo. Galilee was a Hellenised country which is why the Jews called it Galilee of the Gentiles.
Yes, but since most jews were not hellenized, Christianity still sprung up in a jewish culture. It's theology has its origins in the jewish faith.
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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2013, 10:02:07 AM »

The Maccabees didn't seem to like Hellenism.
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2013, 10:11:46 AM »

Hellenism rather than this Judeo-Christian myth is so obvious in the Gospe    Roll Eyes, I mean ponder this familiar passage:


Mark 12:28-34
King James Version (KJV)

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

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« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2013, 10:15:23 AM »

[[/quote]
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« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2013, 10:32:12 AM »

Yes, but since most jews were not hellenized, Christianity still sprung up in a jewish culture. It's theology has its origins in the jewish faith.
Apart from the fact that Christianity emerged in Galilee not Judaea. Well of course it sprung up in a Jewish context as part of a wider Hellenistic gentile world yet it was from the start a stand-alone religion and not a sect of Judaism. Orthodox Christian theology would not be possible without Hellenistic learning; the Trinity and incarnation are simply not possible in Judaism, no way not ever.
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« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2013, 10:33:40 AM »

Hellenism rather than this Judeo-Christian myth is so obvious in the Gospe    Roll Eyes,
Of course, it was written in Greek (Hellenic) by a Greek (Hellenistic) speaking author preaching to Greeks (Gentiles). Roll Eyes
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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2013, 10:38:14 AM »

Yes, but since most jews were not hellenized, Christianity still sprung up in a jewish culture. It's theology has its origins in the jewish faith.
Apart from the fact that Christianity emerged in Galilee not Judaea. Well of course it sprung up in a Jewish context as part of a wider Hellenistic gentile world yet it was from the start a stand-alone religion and not a sect of Judaism. Orthodox Christian theology would not be possible without Hellenistic learning; the Trinity and incarnation are simply not possible in Judaism, no way not ever.
You make it sound as if the Trinity couldn't exist without hellenism.
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« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2013, 10:39:33 AM »

Why do we keep having stupid threads like this?  Anyone with a basic understanding of history can clearly see that Christianity has significant roots in both Jewish and Greek thought.  This is not a new discovery.
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« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2013, 10:40:54 AM »

Hellenism rather than this Judeo-Christian myth is so obvious in the Gospe    Roll Eyes,
Of course, it was written in Greek (Hellenic) by a Greek (Hellenistic) speaking author preaching to Greeks (Gentiles). Roll Eyes

Perhaps like His "brothe"r, St. James and His mother the Virgin Mary?   Roll Eyes 
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« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2013, 10:46:58 AM »

You make it sound as if the Trinity couldn't exist without hellenism.
The theological doctrine of the trinity couldn't have existed without Hellenistic Philosophy, in Helllenistic philosophy the trinity had already existed since Plato.
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« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2013, 10:49:48 AM »

Why do we keep having stupid threads like this?  Anyone with a basic understanding of history can clearly see that Christianity has significant roots in both Jewish and Greek thought.  This is not a new discovery.

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« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2013, 10:50:56 AM »

You make it sound as if the Trinity couldn't exist without hellenism.
The theological doctrine of the trinity couldn't have existed without Hellenistic Philosophy, in Helllenistic philosophy the trinity had already existed since Plato.

Demiurges =/= Trinity.

I wasn't baptised in the name of Plato, Socrates and Aristotle and neither are you, I hope.
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« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2013, 10:51:44 AM »

What about the East-Syriac, Ethiopian, Armenian, Indian or Slavic Christians? Some of them had little or no contact with Hellenism. What about Latin Christendom?
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« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2013, 10:52:44 AM »

The Trinity was fairly closely expressed in the book of Enoch. For ex.

Chapter 45

1Parable the second, respecting these who deny the name of the habitation of the holy ones, and of the Lord of spirits.

2Heaven they shall not ascend, nor shall they come on the earth. This shall be the portion of sinners, who deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and who are thus reserved for the day of punishment and of affliction.

3In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.

4In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it, and illuminate it for ever.

5I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.

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« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2013, 10:54:45 AM »

You make it sound as if the Trinity couldn't exist without hellenism.
The theological doctrine of the trinity couldn't have existed without Hellenistic Philosophy, in Helllenistic philosophy the trinity had already existed since Plato.

The theological doctrine of the Trinity could not have existed without God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If we believed it to be only a philosophical concept, we couldn't call ourselves worshipers of the living God.
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« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2013, 10:56:58 AM »

You make it sound as if the Trinity couldn't exist without hellenism.
The theological doctrine of the trinity couldn't have existed without Hellenistic Philosophy, in Helllenistic philosophy the trinity had already existed since Plato.
The Trinity is the Trinity. Even if hellenism hadn't existed, Christ would still have been incarnated and christians would still believe in the Trinity.
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« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2013, 10:57:08 AM »

Perhaps like His "brothe"r, St. James and His mother the Virgin Mary?   Roll Eyes 
Yea right well the author is traditionally Mark the Evangelist a disciple of Peter FYI his name Markos is of course Greek Roll Eyes
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« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2013, 10:58:46 AM »

Even if Judaism hadn't existed, Christ would still have been incarnated and christians would still believe in the Trinity.
yup works both ways fella  Wink
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« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2013, 11:05:12 AM »

Even if Judaism hadn't existed, Christ would still have been incarnated and christians would still believe in the Trinity.
yup works both ways fella  Wink
The difference between you and me is that I don't see judaism as you see hellenism.
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« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2013, 11:12:30 AM »

Hellenism rather than this Judeo-Christian myth is so obvious in the Gospel    Roll Eyes,
Of course, it was written in Greek (Hellenic) by a Greek (Hellenistic) speaking author preaching to Greeks (Gentiles). Roll Eyes

Except for Matthew, the other Evangelists felt they had to explain Jewish customs and beliefs to the Gentile reader. The subtext is clearly Semitic - sometimes the language itself bears the influence of Semitic thought and expression. The Lord's prayer, for instance, was clearly spoken in Aramaic and preserved in Greek translation in the Gospels.
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« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2013, 11:18:03 AM »

How odd that the author of Hebrews did not list all the Greek "cloud of witnesses".  Must have been an oversight.  Or perhaps all those ancient saints were really Hellenists. Tricksy Bible.  Roll Eyes

Of course, Paul does state in Romans 3:

What advantage then has the Greek, or what is the profit of the Delphinian Oracle? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.

So I guess Pericles is right afterall.  My bad.
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« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2013, 11:28:11 AM »

Galilee was a Hellenised country which is why the Jews called it Galilee of the Gentiles.

Tiberias and Sepphoris were hellenised - the rest, hardly.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49849.msg879673.html#msg879673
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« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2013, 11:31:17 AM »

The difference between you and me is that I don't see judaism as you see hellenism.
Judaism and Hellenism couldn't be more different.

Judaism = Ethnic - Hellenism = Universal
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« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2013, 11:32:25 AM »

Tiberias and Sepphoris were hellenised - the rest, hardly.
Oh right that'll be why the Jews called it Galilee of some Gentiles  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2013, 11:34:04 AM »

Perhaps like His "brothe"r, St. James and His mother the Virgin Mary?   Roll Eyes 
Yea right well the author is traditionally Mark the Evangelist a disciple of Peter FYI his name Markos is of course Greek Roll Eyes
[/quote

St. Mark was a Jew by birth. Oh, I know we can focus on St. Timothy to prove our Hellenic ( & non Judaic origins). BTW, one source quoted in the OP source article was from Henry Ford Roll Eyes
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2013, 11:45:19 AM »

Tiberias and Sepphoris were hellenised - the rest, hardly.
Oh right that'll be why the Jews called it Galilee of some Gentiles  Roll Eyes

They called it that because it had been conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BC, just like Samaria.

It became Jewish once more after the Hasmoneans conquered it back - apparently, a Jewish element survived in Galilee even under Assyrian and Persian rule.

Quote
There is biblical evidence for connections between Israelite elements in Galilee and Judah after the Assyrian conquest (2 Chr 30:10–11; 2 Kgs 21:19; 23:36), and it has been suggested that the cultural difference between Galilee and Samaria had its origins in the fact that the Assyrians settled people from other parts of their empire in Samaria but did not do so in Galilee (Tadmor 1967). The two remaining questions are whether or not there were differences between Galilee and Samaria prior to this, and in which parts of Galilee a Jewish population survived and continued into the Second Temple period.

Anchor Bible Dictionary, s.v. "Galilee".

 
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« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2013, 11:52:59 AM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.
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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2013, 12:01:06 PM »

Why does this even matter?
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« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2013, 12:03:40 PM »

Yes.
Most Jews wouldnt have been, certainly not the Sadducees but Hellenistic forms of Judaism did exist as exemplified by Philo. Galilee was a Hellenised country which is why the Jews called it Galilee of the Gentiles.
Actually, the Sadducees were among the most Hellenized, the Pharisees (and perhaps the Zealots) the least.
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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2013, 12:04:20 PM »

They called it that because it had been conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BC, just like Samaria.
And just like Samaria they didn't consider it Jewish.

 
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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2013, 12:09:44 PM »

Actually, the Sadducees were among the most Hellenized, the Pharisees (and perhaps the Zealots) the least.
Yeah sure the Hellenism is really obvious in their theology ha ha
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« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2013, 12:10:05 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.
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« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2013, 12:10:25 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

I think few would dispute that Hellenism have had a great influence on Christianity. The main thing I dissagree with Pericles on, is the believe rthat christian theology should be dependant on hellenistic philosophy.
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« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2013, 12:15:26 PM »

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.

The problem is whether Christianity (Jesus of Nazareth and the Apostles) originated with the Jews or the Greeks, not what it became after the Resurrection and the mission to the Gentiles. Pericles seems to argue that Our Lord was a Hellene, a non-Jew even.

Most Jews resisted Hellenization heroically, like no other population the Hellenes conquered. Anyone who reads the books of the Maccabees can see that. And those proud Jewish Galilean peasants even more so - one of their rebellions against the oppressors is even alluded to in the Gospel (Luke 13:1-5).

Our Lord said he was sent to gather the "lost sheep of Israel", he commanded his disciples to avoid the cities of the Samaritans and the Gentiles. He interacted with foreigners (the Samaritan, the Syrophoenician woman) like a Jew. He claimed 'salvation comes from the Jews'. Only after the resurrection (Mt. 28:19; Pentecost, according to Acts) did he authorise his disciples to proclaim the Gospel in Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8 ).     
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« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2013, 12:19:36 PM »

Actually, the Sadducees were among the most Hellenized, the Pharisees (and perhaps the Zealots) the least.
Yeah sure the Hellenism is really obvious in their theology ha ha

Heavens to Betsy. You are quite the scholar & I must realize that I have been bested & can no longer render any input into this constructive dialogue.  Roll Eyes


I must correct myself in a reference to henry Ford in which your source article quoted an article from his publication. Any similarities between his Semitic views & those of his publication cannot be verified of course. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2013, 12:22:41 PM »

Why does this even matter?

Do half the things we debate to death on here even matter?   Wink
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« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2013, 12:24:51 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.
Thanks for that, yes they think I'm some sort of Greek Nationalist, despite the fact that I'm British with no Greek ancestry whatsoever.
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« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2013, 12:25:27 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

CC: Ansgar

Q: Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?
A: He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

Ah.  I figured it would be best to figure out if this is an ongoing debate from other threads or not.  I haven't really read anything else he's posted.  I just thought there was some Peter vs Paul action going on.
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« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2013, 12:26:36 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.
Thanks for that, yes they think I'm some sort of Greek Nationalist, despite the fact that I'm British with no Greek ancestry whatsoever.

Do you deny that Christ was Jewish and do you believe that Christianity should be dependent on Greek Philosophy?
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« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2013, 12:27:39 PM »

Why does this even matter?

Do half the things we debate to death on here even matter?   Wink

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« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2013, 12:29:49 PM »

They called it that because it had been conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BC, just like Samaria.
And just like Samaria they didn't consider it Jewish.

Like all Jewish Galileans, Our Lord had to cross Samaria to go to Jerusalem for the Jewish Holidays. Samaria was a non-Jewish enclave, seldom hospitable to the Jews passing through their land.

"When the days drew near for him to be taken up, he set his face to go to Jerusalem. And he sent messengers ahead of him. On their way they entered a village of the Samaritans to make ready for him; but they did not receive him, because his face was set toward Jerusalem. When his disciples James and John saw it, they said, “Lord, do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” But he turned and rebuked them." (Lk 9:51-55)

"He left Judea and started back to Galilee. But he had to go through Samaria." (Jn 4:3-4).
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« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2013, 12:36:59 PM »

Do you deny that Christ was Jewish and do you believe that Christianity should be dependent on Greek Philosophy?
I question the validity of popular perceptions of Christs Jewishness in terms of the religion Christ established I also accept the importance of Hellenistic philosophical and theological themes in the development of early Christianity.

Such a naughty boy!

Oh and I really dislike modern attempts to present Christianity as a Jewish sect that needs to be further Judaised, hence the OP.
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« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2013, 12:37:07 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

CC: Ansgar

Q: Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?
A: He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

Ah.  I figured it would be best to figure out if this is an ongoing debate from other threads or not.  I haven't really read anything else he's posted.  I just thought there was some Peter vs Paul action going on.

Here's some context for this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49806.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49849.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4959.msg879231.html#msg879231
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« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2013, 12:45:37 PM »

Shocking, isn't it?
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« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2013, 12:52:04 PM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

CC: Ansgar

Q: Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?
A: He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.

Ah.  I figured it would be best to figure out if this is an ongoing debate from other threads or not.  I haven't really read anything else he's posted.  I just thought there was some Peter vs Paul action going on.

I can't say I have anything against Pericles, personally. I just disagree with him on some issues.
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« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2013, 04:47:51 PM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
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« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2013, 09:59:40 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
That would appear to be the case only if you neglect look at the quality of posts. Clearly one that does support my OP (Vamrat)has studied the subject and has submitted a well written post. Those against reject my Hellenistic outloook, clearly don't have a grasp of the subject and simply post banal rebuttals of a humorous nature.
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« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2013, 10:02:50 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
That would appear to be the case only if you neglect look at the quality of posts. Clearly one that does support my OP (Vamrat)has studied the subject and has submitted a well written post. Those against reject my Hellenistic outloook, clearly don't have a grasp of the subject and simply post banal rebuttals of a humorous nature.

Your source article seems so reliable (joke). What does Americanist mythology have to do with Christ who lived as a Jew when a man, who fulfilled Hebraic law, & the apostolic faith that came from Jewish apostles?
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« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2013, 10:20:04 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
That would appear to be the case only if you neglect look at the quality of posts. Clearly one that does support my OP (Vamrat)has studied the subject and has submitted a well written post. Those against reject my Hellenistic outloook, clearly don't have a grasp of the subject and simply post banal rebuttals of a humorous nature.

You may be right. OTH, I do not think so. Here is another humorous bit, this time it is not a rebuttal but an advice.

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/k/kenny+rogers/the+gambler_20077886.html
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« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2013, 11:25:52 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
That would appear to be the case only if you neglect look at the quality of posts. Clearly one that does support my OP (Vamrat)has studied the subject and has submitted a well written post. Those against reject my Hellenistic outloook, clearly don't have a grasp of the subject and simply post banal rebuttals of a humorous nature.

You may be right. OTH, I do not think so. Here is another humorous bit, this time it is not a rebuttal but an advice.

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/k/kenny+rogers/the+gambler_20077886.html

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« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2013, 11:38:05 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
That would appear to be the case only if you neglect look at the quality of posts. Clearly one that does support my OP (Vamrat)has studied the subject and has submitted a well written post. Those against reject my Hellenistic outloook, clearly don't have a grasp of the subject and simply post banal rebuttals of a humorous nature.

You may be right. OTH, I do not think so. Here is another humorous bit, this time it is not a rebuttal but an advice.

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/k/kenny+rogers/the+gambler_20077886.html
That is good advice, in ordinary circumstances.
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« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2013, 11:41:08 AM »

Quote
What does Americanist mythology have to do with Christ who lived as a Jew when a man, who fulfilled Hebraic law, & the apostolic faith that came from Jewish apostles?
Nice and cosy theology for a 'Fluff-bunny' ha ha
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« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2013, 11:54:29 AM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.

He denies any Jewish influence whatsoever, going so far as to deny that The Christ himself was Jewish.
Is that what that dumb thread is about?
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« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2013, 11:55:46 AM »

Actually, the Sadducees were among the most Hellenized, the Pharisees (and perhaps the Zealots) the least.
Yeah sure the Hellenism is really obvious in their theology ha ha
Actually, yes.
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« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2013, 12:05:42 PM »

The truth of the matter is:   (?)   http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ-great-britain.html
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« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2013, 01:15:24 AM »

Quote
What does Americanist mythology have to do with Christ who lived as a Jew when a man, who fulfilled Hebraic law, & the apostolic faith that came from Jewish apostles?
Nice and cosy theology for a 'Fluff-bunny' ha ha
Who are you calling a fluff-bunny?
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« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2013, 01:44:03 AM »

What about the East-Syriac, Ethiopian, Armenian, Indian or Slavic Christians? Some of them had little or no contact with Hellenism. What about Latin Christendom?

They're all heretics.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2013, 01:47:13 AM »

Did Pericles say something on another thread that made him persona non grata at some point?  I really cannot see anything wrong with his premise from a historical or religious standpoint.

At the time, Hellenistic culture was all the parts of the world influenced by the Greeks.  It was probably the major culture of the Mediterranean.  The Romans were "Hellenistic".  Before them the region had the various successor dynasties (Seleucids, Ptolemies) and various cities were highly Hellenized - Cyrene, Antioch, etc.  In the Bible it seems that the words "Greek" and "Gentile" are almost used interchangeably.  

And whether Christianity was Jewish or Greek was debated in the early church and I would argue that Greek (if we use the term very loosely) won out.  Hellenism wasn't just Greek, it was any culture influenced by the Greeks (As Pericles rightly pointed out).  Early on it was decided that Christians did not have to be simultaneously Jewish.  They did not have to have Jewish blood, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to restrict their diet in the same ways.

Of course Jewish culture influenced Christianity, I mean, look at the men who spread it after the Ascension!  But I would wager that the Hellenistic cultures were all influenced by the nations they took root in.  (E.G. - Ptolemaic brother-sister-godking-love).  So obviously Christianity would have many Jewish influences, but I don't think this would make it any less Hellenistic.


That said, I am only talking about this as an historical phenomenon.  Christianity has taken on many other cultures over the years.  There are noticeable Germanic/Celtic/Egyptian-Coptic/Slavic variations of Christianity in the world today, and probably more.  As Christianity grows in Africa and East Asia separate from European Colonialism in the next couple centuries I expect to see cultural elements from those regions to also start making their mark.  In some places this will not affect the truth in any way, and in others it may lead to heresy.  This is nothing new.
Thanks for that, yes they think I'm some sort of Greek Nationalist, despite the fact that I'm British with no Greek ancestry whatsoever.

That explains things even more.
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« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2013, 03:25:05 AM »

Oh, for crying out loud.

I'm not a huge fan of the term 'Judeo-Christian' (as applied to Western Culture), as I think the pre-Incarnation Jewish heritage of the Christian faith is implied by the word Christian and I don't think Judaism has really shaped the West all that much (certainly not in any way comparable to Christianity).

But to claim that Christ isn't an ethnic Jew...

Or that St. Moses the God-Seer is a false prophet...

(facepalm)
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« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2013, 04:25:04 AM »

I have really never understood the term judeo-christian. Why can't we just be christians?

Put me down for this.

Obviously Christianity has Jewish roots (along with Hellenistic influence), but what is the term Judeo-Christian _____ even supposed to mean?  Wouldn't the "Judeo" bit that is apparent, e.g. the 10 Commandments, already be implied by the "Christian"?

Also, it's almost always used to describe a culture or nation that has been predominately Christian, not Jewish.  

But how could I forget the Jewish-Christian nations of Ireland, Portugal, Kenya, Chile, and Finland.

Edit: I should've just read OrthoNoob's post above mine.
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« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2013, 06:46:42 AM »

I gather that most commentators on this thread are inclined to disagree with Perikles' thesis that Judeo-Christian tradition is a myth. Am I right?
Doesn't mean he's wrong.

As for the OP, I agree.

Let's leave the "Judeo" Christian nonsense to the Evangelical kooks like Robertson and Hagee.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2013, 08:22:26 AM »

The Trinity was fairly closely expressed in the book of Enoch. For ex.

Chapter 45

1Parable the second, respecting these who deny the name of the habitation of the holy ones, and of the Lord of spirits.

2Heaven they shall not ascend, nor shall they come on the earth. This shall be the portion of sinners, who deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and who are thus reserved for the day of punishment and of affliction.

3In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.

4In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it, and illuminate it for ever.

5I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.



Is this from 1 Enoch or 2 Enoch
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« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2013, 09:16:35 AM »

Quote
What does Americanist mythology have to do with Christ who lived as a Jew when a man, who fulfilled Hebraic law, & the apostolic faith that came from Jewish apostles?
Nice and cosy theology for a 'Fluff-bunny' ha ha
Who are you calling a fluff-bunny?

Another question. Are you using "fluff-bunny" interchangeably with "fluffy bunny" and in the following sense?

"Fluffy Bunny, or Fluffbunny, is a pejorative expression used since at least 1987 in Wicca (and in Neopaganism generally) to refer to adherents of the religion who are thought to be superficial or faddish. They are considered to dislike darker elements and emphasise goodness, light, eclecticism and elements taken from the New Age movement, or follow it as a fad.

Catherine Noble-Beyer has defined Fluffy Bunnies in the following terms:

    The primary definition of a Fluffy Bunny is one who refuses to learn, refuses to think, and refuses to consider the possibility that they could possibly ever be wrong. Generally, they find one book, author or website and follow it as if it were the holy word, frequently denouncing anything that disagrees with it as obviously false. Fluffy Bunnies rarely get past the defense of "Because [insert favorite author here] says so." Sometimes they don't even get that far, responding to any and all criticism with something like, "You're just trying to persecute me!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluffy_bunny
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« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2013, 12:41:47 PM »

The Trinity was fairly closely expressed in the book of Enoch. For ex.

Chapter 45

1Parable the second, respecting these who deny the name of the habitation of the holy ones, and of the Lord of spirits.

2Heaven they shall not ascend, nor shall they come on the earth. This shall be the portion of sinners, who deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and who are thus reserved for the day of punishment and of affliction.

3In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.

4In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it, and illuminate it for ever.

5I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/ethiopian/enoch/2parables/parables.htm

Is this from 1 Enoch or 2 Enoch
1st Enoch in the ethiopian canon.     
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« Reply #83 on: February 25, 2013, 09:11:25 AM »

...I agree...Let's leave the "Judeo" Christian nonsense to the Evangelical kooks like Robertson and Hagee.  Roll Eyes
Thanks and this lot Jews for Jesus
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« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2013, 09:25:04 AM »

Pericles--This is an official request. Please answer my question in reply 81 above. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2013, 09:35:03 AM »

...I agree...Let's leave the "Judeo" Christian nonsense to the Evangelical kooks like Robertson and Hagee.  Roll Eyes
Thanks and this lot Jews for Jesus

Their error being similar to yours: the inability to distinguish between the Judaism of the Old Testament, and the Jewishness of Christ and the Apostles, and the Talmudic Judaism of the Rabbis and the Zionist state in occupied Palestine. You're two sides of the same coin.
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« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2013, 10:44:29 AM »

Pericles--This is an official request. Please answer my question in reply 81 above. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
It doesn't define the term as I was employing it, no.
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« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2013, 12:47:42 PM »

Pericles--This is an official request. Please answer my question in reply 81 above. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
It doesn't define the term as I was employing it, no.

Please tell us how you meant it. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2013, 01:19:19 PM »

Dear Pericles,

You write:

"Reviewing the last two thousand years of Western Christian history there is really no evidence of a Judeo-Christian tradition and this has not escaped the attention of honest Christian and Jewish commentators."
I find the term "Judeo-Christian" to be confusing. On one hand, Christianity's roots are in ancient Judaism. But on the other hand, the practices of Christianity, ancient Judaism, and modern Rabbinical Judaism are clearly distinguishable- and the first and the last of these are sometimes opposing.

So the main confusion is whether it refers to the commonalities between them or all of them taken as a whole. If the latter, then things said about one group could be mistakenly attributed to the other.

However, since you particularly object to this term, then it doesn't seem to match Orthodoxy when you say:
The roots of the Judeo-Christian Tradition can be found in the Jewish Christianity of the first century and later in Arianism.
The problem is that Orthodoxy itself sees the Christianity practiced by 1st century Jewish Christians as a foundational part of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2013, 03:23:56 AM »

Please tell us how you meant it. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
Fluffy means vague and undefined.
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« Reply #90 on: February 26, 2013, 03:37:23 AM »

However, since you particularly object to this term, then it doesn't seem to match Orthodoxy when you say:
The roots of the Judeo-Christian Tradition can be found in the Jewish Christianity of the first century and later in Arianism.
The problem is that Orthodoxy itself sees the Christianity practiced by 1st century Jewish Christians as a foundational part of Orthodoxy.
I certainly don't think that's the case, the term "Jewish Christianity" refers to Jews that accepted Christ as messiah but rejected his divinity, like the Ebionites, Nazarenes & etc. Jewish Christianity developed out of the Judaizers that Peter had a problem with in Acts. Orthodoxy developed out of Gentile (Greek) Christianity and was in conflict with Judaizing elements until Nicaea. On the basis that Christ and the Apostles believed in and taught the divinity of Christ, Orthodoxy could not have developed out of a beleif system that denied the central tenet of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #91 on: February 26, 2013, 03:58:24 AM »

However, since you particularly object to this term, then it doesn't seem to match Orthodoxy when you say:
The roots of the Judeo-Christian Tradition can be found in the Jewish Christianity of the first century and later in Arianism.
The problem is that Orthodoxy itself sees the Christianity practiced by 1st century Jewish Christians as a foundational part of Orthodoxy.
I don't think that's the case, the term "Jewish Christianity" refers to Jews that accepted Chrisf as messiah but rejected his divinity, like the Ebionites & etc.
I don't think so. The term "Greek Christianity" would refer to Christianity in general among Greeks, not just those with notions common among nonChristian Greeks (in that case pagans).

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« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2013, 04:12:01 AM »

I don't think so.
Well actually yes it does.

A Jewish Christian isn't just a Jew that believes in the divinity of Christ, that would be a Christian who also happens to be a Jew.
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« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2013, 04:24:37 AM »

Jewish Values and the Judeo-Christian Tradition Do Not Belong to the Fundamentalist Right

The most objectionable aspect of Schwartz's article is not the specious nature of his attacks on the president -- more on that below -- but his perpetuation of the canard that Jewish values and the Jewish and Judeo-Christian traditions are somehow the undisputed property of fundamentalist right-wing theologians and politicians.

Menachem Rosensaft Professor of law and son of Holocaust survivors.

Full Article
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« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2013, 11:50:12 AM »

Please tell us how you meant it. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
Fluffy means vague and undefined.

Your whole premise of trying to debunk the Jewish root of Christianity using the American concept of being a "Judeo-Christian" nation is a senseless example to support replacement theology. The Epistle of Barnabus does this just fine without invective.
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« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2013, 12:53:22 PM »

Your whole premise of trying to debunk the Jewish root of Christianity using the American concept of being a "Judeo-Christian" nation is a senseless example to support replacement theology. The Epistle of Barnabus does this just fine without invective.
Oh it goes much deeper than that! There was nothing to replace, except myths & legends.
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« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2013, 04:54:11 PM »

Please tell us how you meant it. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
Fluffy means vague and undefined.

Thank you for your clarification. Please be aware that I was considering disciplining you for resorting to ad hominem. It may be safer in the future to say what you mean in plain English instead of resorting to labels. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #97 on: February 26, 2013, 05:03:22 PM »

However, since you particularly object to this term, then it doesn't seem to match Orthodoxy when you say:
The roots of the Judeo-Christian Tradition can be found in the Jewish Christianity of the first century and later in Arianism.
The problem is that Orthodoxy itself sees the Christianity practiced by 1st century Jewish Christians as a foundational part of Orthodoxy.
I certainly don't think that's the case, the term "Jewish Christianity" refers to Jews that accepted Christ as messiah but rejected his divinity, like the Ebionites, Nazarenes & etc. Jewish Christianity developed out of the Judaizers that Peter had a problem with in Acts. Orthodoxy developed out of Gentile (Greek) Christianity and was in conflict with Judaizing elements until Nicaea. On the basis that Christ and the Apostles believed in and taught the divinity of Christ, Orthodoxy could not have developed out of a beleif system that denied the central tenet of Orthodoxy.
Haven't read St. Paul, have you?

Or know anything about the mission of St. Peter, as the NT describes it.
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« Reply #98 on: February 26, 2013, 05:11:52 PM »

I have really never understood the term judeo-christian. Why can't we just be christians?

Put me down for this.

Obviously Christianity has Jewish roots (along with Hellenistic influence), but what is the term Judeo-Christian _____ even supposed to mean?  Wouldn't the "Judeo" bit that is apparent, e.g. the 10 Commandments, already be implied by the "Christian"?

Also, it's almost always used to describe a culture or nation that has been predominately Christian, not Jewish.  

But how could I forget the Jewish-Christian nations of Ireland, Portugal, Kenya, Chile, and Finland.

Edit: I should've just read OrthoNoob's post above mine.

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Most of the time I have seen Judeo-Christian used it has been either linked to politics, i.e. U.S. + Israel (and I shall leave the politics at that) or rascism/politics, i.e. a convenient way Neo-Nazi Black Metal Aficionados (NNBMA) to blame da eeevil Krishtins and J00s collectively for all that is wrong with the formerly pagan utopia of Europa.
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« Reply #99 on: February 26, 2013, 05:22:10 PM »

I am surprised that nobody has talked about this aspect:

"The term "Judeo–Christian" did not gain popularity, however, until after The Holocaust in Europe. Reacting against the anti-Semitism of Nazi Germany, European and American commentators sought to redefine Judaism as integral to the history of The West. The term has since been used as part of American civil religion since the 1940s to refer to standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity, for example the Ten Commandments or Great Commandment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian
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« Reply #100 on: February 26, 2013, 06:17:53 PM »

I am surprised that nobody has talked about this aspect:

"The term "Judeo–Christian" did not gain popularity, however, until after The Holocaust in Europe. Reacting against the anti-Semitism of Nazi Germany, European and American commentators sought to redefine Judaism as integral to the history of The West. The term has since been used as part of American civil religion since the 1940s to refer to standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity, for example the Ten Commandments or Great Commandment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian
This is true. Being a cradle Catholic for over four decades and attending Catholic schools growing up I never heard this phrase "Judeo-Christian" until well into my adult years and usually from evangelical cirlcles.

As a matter of fact, from my expierence, "Judeo-Christian" is code word for "not Catholic/Orthodox" by most of the Protestant right wingers and pro-Zionists when they are describing themselves as opposed to the rest of Christendom.

This is totally bogus, there is no such thing as "Judeo" Christianity, there's only the Church established on Earth by Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #101 on: February 26, 2013, 11:46:40 PM »

I don't think so.
Well actually yes it does.

A Jewish Christian isn't just a Jew that believes in the divinity of Christ, that would be a Christian who also happens to be a Jew.
Pericles, your source says what I am saying:
Quote
Jewish Christians were the original members of the Jewish reform movement that later became Christianity. In the earliest stage the community was made up of all those Jews who accepted Jesus of Nazareth as a venerable person or even the messiah, and was thus equivalent to all Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

I had written:
Quote
The problem is that Orthodoxy itself sees the Christianity practiced by 1st century Jewish Christians as a foundational part of Orthodoxy.

I understand that the Wikipedia article goes on to distinguish Jewish Christians from orthodox Christians by saying that the former kept their Jewish rituals. However, I find this to be a possibly artificial difference. First, Jesus and the first apostles distinguished themselves from Jewish rituals sometimes. For example, St Peter had a vision that it was OK to eat any kind of food. So I disagree that Jewish Christian necessarily means one who follows the rituals.

My understanding is really that just as one can say Irish Catholic, Palestinian Christian, Greek Orthodox, or French protestant, it is possible to say "Jewish Christian" and refer to one's cultural or ethnic background without referring to a separate set of observances. (After all, Irish Catholics are really Roman Catholics).

On a sidenote, assuming Wikipedia's simplistic definition, focusing on rituals is correct, it does not mean there were theological differences about Jesus' divinity. After all, the Ebionites who disbelieved this are only one of the subgroups mentioned.
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« Reply #102 on: February 26, 2013, 11:54:41 PM »

Thanks for sharing, Carl:
The term has since been used as part of American civil religion since the 1940s to refer to standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity, for example the Ten Commandments or Great Commandment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian
However, I find this definition confusing. After all, there are shared theological beliefs like monotheism that go beyond mere standards of religious ethics. Plus, even assuming this is the definition, it seems easily confusable, since Christianity and modern Rabbinic Judaism have some important opposing views.

In any case, it's helpful to know this sense in which it's used.
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« Reply #103 on: February 27, 2013, 01:41:46 AM »

Thanks for sharing, Carl:
The term has since been used as part of American civil religion since the 1940s to refer to standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity, for example the Ten Commandments or Great Commandment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian
However, I find this definition confusing. After all, there are shared theological beliefs like monotheism that go beyond mere standards of religious ethics. Plus, even assuming this is the definition, it seems easily confusable, since Christianity and modern Rabbinic Judaism have some important opposing views.

In any case, it's helpful to know this sense in which it's used.
The sense I use it comes from the fact that we share, more or less, the OT and traditions that are related (e.g. Passover/Pascha, Pentacost), etc.
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« Reply #104 on: February 27, 2013, 02:48:48 PM »

It's kind of like referring to "Anglo-German" culture. One can point out that the English came from Germanic tribes. However, the term creates confusion, because someone might claim that Sauerbraten is part of "Anglo-German" culture, when in fact it's only part of German culture. Further, Anglos and Germans might dispute how much of each one's culture really came from their common source or was invented or picked up from other cultures later.

In both cases you have the root (Germanic or Judeo) and a branch (Anglo or Christian) with a new name, and you also have another branch (modern Germans and Rabbinic Judaism) that typically keeps the root's name.

The group keeping the old name might claim that the one with the new name is not really part of a common tradition. Then one may think of a counterargument: at one point it was promised that God's followers would have a new name. This new name could be "Nazarenes" or "Christians." There was also promise of a New Covenant in Jeremiah. But the fact that the term creates a controversy shows that it's a confusing one.

But maybe it's still a real term. I could see one talking about the "Western Christian" tradition. My understanding would be then that Papal infallibility and rejection of it are both parts of that tradition. Yet some more sectarian Orthodox might claim that Western Christianity doesn't exist outside western followers of the Orthodox Church, and so Papal infallibility is not part of it.
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« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2013, 10:49:21 AM »

I could be wrong, but don't we view the Church as eternal? "True" Israel is part of the Church and they were entrusted with the oracles of God.  Obviously, there are those Jews who deny Christ and they were cut off from the tree, but as a whole, the Church grew through the nation of Israel until it was proclaimed through the nations.  That is not to say that we should go back to the OT way of doing things, but we should recognize that it had a significant impact on the development of the Church.
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« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2013, 11:37:16 AM »

I am surprised that nobody has talked about this aspect:

"The term "Judeo–Christian" did not gain popularity, however, until after The Holocaust in Europe. Reacting against the anti-Semitism of Nazi Germany, European and American commentators sought to redefine Judaism as integral to the history of The West. The term has since been used as part of American civil religion since the 1940s to refer to standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity, for example the Ten Commandments or Great Commandment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian
This is true. Being a cradle Catholic for over four decades and attending Catholic schools growing up I never heard this phrase "Judeo-Christian" until well into my adult years and usually from evangelical cirlcles.

As a matter of fact, from my expierence, "Judeo-Christian" is code word for "not Catholic/Orthodox" by most of the Protestant right wingers and pro-Zionists when they are describing themselves as opposed to the rest of Christendom.

This is totally bogus, there is no such thing as "Judeo" Christianity, there's only the Church established on Earth by Jesus Christ.

We are considering whether it is true that there are "standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity." I think that the answer must be a resounding yes.
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« Reply #107 on: February 28, 2013, 11:43:51 AM »

Thanks for sharing, Carl:
The term has since been used as part of American civil religion since the 1940s to refer to standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity, for example the Ten Commandments or Great Commandment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian
However, I find this definition confusing. After all, there are shared theological beliefs like monotheism that go beyond mere standards of religious ethics. Plus, even assuming this is the definition, it seems easily confusable, since Christianity and modern Rabbinic Judaism have some important opposing views.

In any case, it's helpful to know this sense in which it's used.

I would think that the opposing views would not be part of the "Judeo-Christian" tradition. I personally think that the phrase is an attempt to bridge the gap between Judaism and Christianity so that Christians would consider treating Jews as fellow human beings, rather than Christ-killers, parasites, sub-humans, etc... Remember that the memory of the pogroms and the Holocaust was fresh.
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« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2013, 12:45:55 PM »

An interesting context to this question would be to study the response of the Sephardim/Mizrahim (e.g. Maimonides) on an Judeo-Islamic Tradition.  (btw, I wonder: are Romaniotes Mizrahim?)
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« Reply #109 on: February 28, 2013, 01:50:52 PM »

I could be wrong, but don't we view the Church as eternal? "True" Israel is part of the Church and they were entrusted with the oracles of God.  Obviously, there are those Jews who deny Christ and they were cut off from the tree, but as a whole, the Church grew through the nation of Israel until it was proclaimed through the nations.  That is not to say that we should go back to the OT way of doing things, but we should recognize that it had a significant impact on the development of the Church.
Trisagion,

Your analysis of church teaching on this is correct. Many are not aware of this teaching. I, for one, was not until I learned about it at OCF in college.



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« Reply #110 on: February 28, 2013, 02:20:32 PM »

Carl,

Your view is in line with the passage you quoted from Wikipedia:
Thanks for sharing, Carl:
The term has since been used as part of American civil religion since the 1940s to refer to standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity, for example the Ten Commandments or Great Commandment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian
However, I find this definition confusing. After all, there are shared theological beliefs like monotheism that go beyond mere standards of religious ethics. Plus, even assuming this is the definition, it seems easily confusable, since Christianity and modern Rabbinic Judaism have some important opposing views.

In any case, it's helpful to know this sense in which it's used.

I would think that the opposing views would not be part of the "Judeo-Christian" tradition.
It makes sense too that opposing views would not be a "common part of their traditions."

However, to me the term "Judeo-Christian tradition" mean that Judaism and Christianity are a "common tradition". So if one considers modern Judaism to mean Rabbinical Judaism, then this term does not make any more sense to me than it does to refer to the "Catholic-Protestant tradition."

Sure, modern Catholicism and Protestantism share an older Catholic tradition, but today the religions by those names today make it a point of distinguishing themselves from eachother.

Now granted a society can create a whole range of illogical terms like guinea pig, which is neither a pig nor does it come from Guinea. But people can have an easy enough time understanding what it is by looking at it. In the case of the term "Judeo-Christian", however, there are folks like Isa who will point to things like Pentecost (see above) as a related element, when in fact it is a holiday that contrasts the two modern religions.
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« Reply #111 on: March 01, 2013, 08:59:44 AM »

Carl,

Your view is in line with the passage you quoted from Wikipedia:
Thanks for sharing, Carl:
The term has since been used as part of American civil religion since the 1940s to refer to standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity, for example the Ten Commandments or Great Commandment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian
However, I find this definition confusing. After all, there are shared theological beliefs like monotheism that go beyond mere standards of religious ethics. Plus, even assuming this is the definition, it seems easily confusable, since Christianity and modern Rabbinic Judaism have some important opposing views.

In any case, it's helpful to know this sense in which it's used.

I would think that the opposing views would not be part of the "Judeo-Christian" tradition.
It makes sense too that opposing views would not be a "common part of their traditions."

However, to me the term "Judeo-Christian tradition" mean that Judaism and Christianity are a "common tradition". So if one considers modern Judaism to mean Rabbinical Judaism, then this term does not make any more sense to me than it does to refer to the "Catholic-Protestant tradition."

Sure, modern Catholicism and Protestantism share an older Catholic tradition, but today the religions by those names today make it a point of distinguishing themselves from eachother.

Now granted a society can create a whole range of illogical terms like guinea pig, which is neither a pig nor does it come from Guinea. But people can have an easy enough time understanding what it is by looking at it. In the case of the term "Judeo-Christian", however, there are folks like Isa who will point to things like Pentecost (see above) as a related element, when in fact it is a holiday that contrasts the two modern religions.

However, we do call them the western tradition, so even though it is not the hyphenated nomenclature, there is a recognition that it has a common tradition. (Much to the chagrin of Protestants)
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« Reply #112 on: March 06, 2013, 03:49:49 PM »

We are considering whether it is true that there are "standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity." I think that the answer must be a resounding yes.
An eye for an eye is Judaic, Christianity responds with turn the other cheek, thats opposition not commonality.
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« Reply #113 on: March 06, 2013, 03:54:13 PM »

We are considering whether it is true that there are "standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity." I think that the answer must be a resounding yes.
An eye for an eye is Judaic, Christianity responds with turn the other cheek, thats opposition not commonality.
Making an aspect an entire definition? What about Romans 13:8-10 to keep the basic commandments is St. Paul just "Judaic?"
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« Reply #114 on: March 06, 2013, 09:32:02 PM »

Anti-semitic rhetoric as I can tell
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« Reply #115 on: March 08, 2013, 12:44:11 AM »

We are considering whether it is true that there are "standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity." I think that the answer must be a resounding yes.
An eye for an eye is Judaic, Christianity responds with turn the other cheek, thats opposition not commonality.
Then you don't understand what an eye for an eye meant.
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« Reply #116 on: March 14, 2013, 09:24:15 AM »

Then you don't understand what an eye for an eye meant.
As a matter of fact I do. In a time when retribution meant decimating your emeny, by killing him, his wife, children, cattle and burning his property. In those days 'an eye for an eye' was a move towards moderation and fairness but it was still retaliatory, unlike the Christian 'turn the other cheek'.
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« Reply #117 on: March 14, 2013, 11:28:21 AM »

Then you don't understand what an eye for an eye meant.
As a matter of fact I do. In a time when retribution meant decimating your emeny, by killing him, his wife, children, cattle and burning his property. In those days 'an eye for an eye' was a move towards moderation and fairness but it was still retaliatory, unlike the Christian 'turn the other cheek'.

So what is your point? If Christians do not understand this or "get it' after 2,000 years the Gospel was preached by the Lord Jesus Christ, then we are really pathetic. Jews were moving beyond some of these strict applications when the Lord walked the earth.
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« Reply #118 on: March 14, 2013, 12:54:51 PM »

We are considering whether it is true that there are "standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity." I think that the answer must be a resounding yes.
An eye for an eye is Judaic, Christianity responds with turn the other cheek, thats opposition not commonality.


To quote my grandson: Well duh!! Those aspects that are not in common are by definition excluded. Please reread the thread, starting February 26th.
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« Reply #119 on: March 14, 2013, 01:18:13 PM »

Anti-semitic rhetoric as I can tell

Nah, just LARP-ing. However one of the most serious cases I've seen on this forum.
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« Reply #120 on: March 14, 2013, 01:21:22 PM »

We are considering whether it is true that there are "standards of religious ethics said to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity." I think that the answer must be a resounding yes.
An eye for an eye is Judaic, Christianity responds with turn the other cheek, thats opposition not commonality.


To quote my grandson: Well duh!! Those aspects that are not in common are by definition excluded. Please reread the thread, starting February 26th.
the very fact that "turn the other cheek" presupposes knowledge of "an eye for an eye" demonstrates a common Judeo-Christian Tradition.  Christ uses the latter as a springboard for the former.
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« Reply #121 on: March 16, 2013, 08:04:20 AM »

However, since you particularly object to this term, then it doesn't seem to match Orthodoxy when you say:
The roots of the Judeo-Christian Tradition can be found in the Jewish Christianity of the first century and later in Arianism.
The problem is that Orthodoxy itself sees the Christianity practiced by 1st century Jewish Christians as a foundational part of Orthodoxy.
I certainly don't think that's the case, the term "Jewish Christianity" refers to Jews that accepted Christ as messiah but rejected his divinity, like the Ebionites, Nazarenes & etc. Jewish Christianity developed out of the Judaizers that Peter had a problem with in Acts. Orthodoxy developed out of Gentile (Greek) Christianity and was in conflict with Judaizing elements until Nicaea. On the basis that Christ and the Apostles believed in and taught the divinity of Christ, Orthodoxy could not have developed out of a beleif system that denied the central tenet of Orthodoxy.

Quick correction, the Nazarenes did believe in the divinity of Christ.   (they did not coin the phrase "trinity" but then again, neither did the gentiles until approx 300 years after the resurrection)

This should be read by everybody.  It's very informational on the Nazarenes (no not church of the Nazarene, but the "non-Gentile" early Christians).
http://www.yashanet.com/library/temple/nazarenes.htm

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« Reply #122 on: June 11, 2013, 05:45:24 AM »

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♪ It was foretold: I will dieeeeee by thyyyy hannnnnd
♪ Into Hadessssssssss my soul descends
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« Reply #123 on: June 11, 2013, 09:03:22 AM »

♪ Ohhhhhh the Orthodox hate the Catholics
♪ and the Catholics hate the Protestants
♪ and the Protestants hate the Muslims
♪ and everybody hates the Jews!

♪ And the Muslims hate the Orthodox
♪ and they also hate the Catholics
♪ and they also hate the Buddhists
♪ and they definitely hate the Jews!

♪ And the Samaritans hate the Sadducees
♪ and the Sadducees hate the Pharisees
♪ and the Pharisees hate the Gentiles
♪ and everybody hates the Jews!

(with apologies to Tom Lehrer)
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« Reply #124 on: June 11, 2013, 10:24:49 AM »

♪ Ohhhhhh the Orthodox hate the Catholics
♪ and the Catholics hate the Protestants
♪ and the Protestants hate the Muslims
♪ and everybody hates the Jews!

♪ And the Muslims hate the Orthodox
♪ and they also hate the Catholics
♪ and they also hate the Buddhists
♪ and they definitely hate the Jews!

♪ And the Samaritans hate the Sadducees
♪ and the Sadducees hate the Pharisees
♪ and the Pharisees hate the Gentiles
♪ and everybody hates the Jews!

(with apologies to Tom Lehrer)

Now that you have done National Brotherhood Week, I hope you will work on the Vatican Rag next. I see no way myself on how to replace genuflect, genuflect, genuflect.
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« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2013, 12:55:49 PM »

♪ Ohhhhhh the Orthodox hate the Catholics ♪ and everybody hates the Jews! ♪ And the Muslims hate the Orthodox
Orthodoxy doesn't hate people, as the Bible even says to love enemies.

The clearest example that Orthodox don't hate Catholics is that they do not have to get re-baptized when they become Orthodox. Also, Patriarch Bartholemew said that when there is no church of one's denomination within a commutable distance, they (Orthodox or Catholics) can commune in the other's church, as I understand it.

As I understand it, the least-liked religious group in America is actually the atheists.

Finally, I highly doubt that Muslims hate Orthodox as a blanket rule. In fact, there is an amount of respect for them as People of the Book, and despite wars and even harsh discrimination, they generally teach that Orthodox are allowed to keep and practice their religion, which is not what they teach regarding pagan religions.

Nonetheless, why do we have to accept whatever a government, society, or religious community does, without criticism? In fact, shouldn't one oppose their abuses?
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« Reply #126 on: June 11, 2013, 01:01:23 PM »

The clearest example that Orthodox don't hate Catholics is that they do not have to get re-baptized when they become Orthodox. Also, Patriarch Bartholemew said that when there is no church of one's denomination within a commutable distance, they (Orthodox or Catholics) can commune in the other's church, as I understand it.

When?
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« Reply #127 on: June 11, 2013, 01:28:34 PM »

The clearest example that Orthodox don't hate Catholics is that they do not have to get re-baptized when they become Orthodox. Also, Patriarch Bartholemew said that when there is no church of one's denomination within a commutable distance, they (Orthodox or Catholics) can commune in the other's church, as I understand it.

Besides the fact that this is simply inaccurate - there is no situation in which intercommunion is permitted, and several jurisdictions insist on the baptism of converts from Roman Catholicism - the idea that "re-baptism" is a sign of hatred makes no sense. Do Orthodox despise all non-Christians because we baptise them into the faith?
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« Reply #128 on: June 11, 2013, 06:28:46 PM »

The clearest example that Orthodox don't hate Catholics is that they do not have to get re-baptized when they become Orthodox. Also, Patriarch Bartholemew said that when there is no church of one's denomination within a commutable distance, they (Orthodox or Catholics) can commune in the other's church, as I understand it.
When?
Mike,

This happened a few years ago. I clearly remember reading about it on an Orthodox website that discussed his position in a serious way, and I posted on it here at OC.net. I regret that I do not have the link to the article.

A quick internet search turned up some Orthodox sites claiming "intercommunion" was established, but I think this is too strong a term.
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« Reply #129 on: June 11, 2013, 06:30:49 PM »

several jurisdictions insist on the baptism of converts from Roman Catholicism - the idea that "re-baptism" is a sign of hatred makes no sense. Do Orthodox despise all non-Christians because we baptise them into the faith?
Of course you are right. The limited respect for Catholic rites though seemed to me a particularly notable counterargument to the mistaken accusation about "hating Catholics."


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« Reply #130 on: June 11, 2013, 07:51:34 PM »

♪ Ohhhhhh the Orthodox hate the Catholics ♪ and everybody hates the Jews! ♪ And the Muslims hate the Orthodox
Orthodoxy doesn't hate people, as the Bible even says to love enemies.

Are you familiar with a wonderful new concept called "humor"?
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« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2013, 08:13:42 PM »

The clearest example that Orthodox don't hate Catholics is that they do not have to get re-baptized when they become Orthodox. Also, Patriarch Bartholemew said that when there is no church of one's denomination within a commutable distance, they (Orthodox or Catholics) can commune in the other's church, as I understand it.
When?
Mike,

This happened a few years ago. I clearly remember reading about it on an Orthodox website that discussed his position in a serious way, and I posted on it here at OC.net. I regret that I do not have the link to the article.

Nothing but gossips? OK.
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« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2013, 08:30:08 PM »

Yes, but since most jews were not hellenized, Christianity still sprung up in a jewish culture. It's theology has its origins in the jewish faith.
Apart from the fact that Christianity emerged in Galilee not Judaea. Well of course it sprung up in a Jewish context as part of a wider Hellenistic gentile world yet it was from the start a stand-alone religion and not a sect of Judaism. Orthodox Christian theology would not be possible without Hellenistic learning; the Trinity and incarnation are simply not possible in Judaism, no way not ever.

How about the times in Genesis where God refers to Himself in the plural, that's got to count for something.
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« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2013, 10:46:02 PM »

Patriarch Bartholemew said that when there is no church of one's denomination within a commutable distance, they (Orthodox or Catholics) can commune in the other's church, as I understand it.
This happened a few years ago. I clearly remember reading about it on an Orthodox website that discussed his position in a serious way, and I posted on it here at OC.net.
gossips?
I searched the web and found this:

Quote
Great turmoil was created when [Patriarch] Dimitrios announced that by extreme economy and unconditionally, in case of the dying, Holy Communion could be received from a Roman Catholic priest (see Macedonia, No. 7/8, 1987).
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/quovadis.aspx

However, I was actually referring to the 1975 Thyateira Confession.

It states:
Quote
“When they are not near a Roman Catholic Church, Roman Catholics are permitted to receive the Holy Communion in Orthodox Churches; and the same is also extended to Orthodox when they are not near an Orthodox Church.”

This is quoted in the commentary about it, from which another quote is below:
Quote
The Thyateira Confession , by Archbishop Athenagoras (Kokkinakis) of Thyateira and Great Britain, was printed “With the Blessing and Authorization of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople” in 1975.
http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy_demetrios.shtml
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« Reply #134 on: June 11, 2013, 11:37:11 PM »

♪ Ohhhhhh the Orthodox hate the Catholics ♪ and everybody hates the Jews! ♪ And the Muslims hate the Orthodox
Orthodoxy doesn't hate people, as the Bible even says to love enemies.

Are you familiar with a wonderful new concept called "humor"?

Make it rhyme next time, yo.
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« Reply #135 on: June 11, 2013, 11:47:25 PM »

Are you familiar with a wonderful new concept called "humor"?
Make it rhyme next time, yo.

Oh I heard a rumor
that a baby boomer
had no sense of humor
but that couldn't be true-mer ...
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« Reply #136 on: June 12, 2013, 04:52:38 AM »

I remember hearing a Jew saying that Jews never use the term "Judeo-Christian".  I have heard Christians use it, though.

Still, we do derive much of our validity from Jewish tradition.  I think that the problem comes in when we consider the Jews of today to be the same thing of the Jews from back in the day.

EDIT: Forgive me, I didn't realize that there was more than one page of responses.  I only read the first page.
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« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2013, 06:12:39 AM »

I searched the web and found this:

Quote
Great turmoil was created when [Patriarch] Dimitrios announced that by extreme economy and unconditionally, in case of the dying, Holy Communion could be received from a Roman Catholic priest (see Macedonia, No. 7/8, 1987).
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/quovadis.aspx

However, I was actually referring to the 1975 Thyateira Confession.

It states:
Quote
“When they are not near a Roman Catholic Church, Roman Catholics are permitted to receive the Holy Communion in Orthodox Churches; and the same is also extended to Orthodox when they are not near an Orthodox Church.”

This is quoted in the commentary about it, from which another quote is below:
Quote
The Thyateira Confession , by Archbishop Athenagoras (Kokkinakis) of Thyateira and Great Britain, was printed “With the Blessing and Authorization of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople” in 1975.
http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy_demetrios.shtml

So you were lying about Patriarch Bartholomew? Right.

And I'd like to see some more reliable sources than true-hyperdox-old-calendar websites.
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« Reply #138 on: June 12, 2013, 10:22:23 AM »

So you were lying about Patriarch Bartholomew? Right.
I referred to something that I researched three years ago and posted on then. Three years later I tell you Pat. Bartholomew favored communion when there is no such church nearby, and you say I am lying when it turns out it was Pat. Athenagoras?

The Thyateira Confession says Orthodox can commune in Catholic churches if there is no Orthodox church near them and vice verse. However, this is not the same as Open Communion.
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« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2013, 12:05:36 PM »

So you were lying about Patriarch Bartholomew? Right.

Shocked  

Should people who claim to be Christians automatically put the worst possible interpretation (that of committing a serious breach of one of the Commandments) on the actions of their fellow Christians?

I ask only for information.   police  
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« Reply #140 on: June 12, 2013, 03:19:40 PM »

Three years later I tell you Pat. Bartholomew favored communion when there is no such church nearby, and you say I am lying when it turns out it was Pat. Athenagoras?

Indeed. And spread false accusations.
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« Reply #141 on: June 12, 2013, 03:50:06 PM »

Three years later I tell you Pat. Bartholomew favored communion when there is no such church nearby, and you say I am lying when it turns out it was Pat. Athenagoras?
Indeed. And spreading false accusations.
So three years ago I read this on the "True Orthodoxy" website, posted about it on OC.net, and now three years later I remember it online, but get the name of the specific Patriarch wrong...
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« Reply #142 on: June 12, 2013, 04:04:31 PM »

Three years later I tell you Pat. Bartholomew favored communion when there is no such church nearby, and you say I am lying when it turns out it was Pat. Athenagoras?
Indeed. And spreading false accusations.
So three years ago I read this on the "True Orthodoxy" website, posted about it on OC.net, and now three years later I remember it online, but get the name of the specific Patriarch wrong...


Sssssssssssssssssinerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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« Reply #143 on: June 12, 2013, 04:12:19 PM »

Three years later I tell you Pat. Bartholomew favored communion when there is no such church nearby, and you say I am lying when it turns out it was Pat. Athenagoras?
Indeed. And spreading false accusations.
So three years ago I read this on the "True Orthodoxy" website, posted about it on OC.net, and now three years later I remember it online, but get the name of the specific Patriarch wrong...
Accidents are not allowed in Poland.
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« Reply #144 on: June 12, 2013, 04:30:11 PM »

Three years later I tell you Pat. Bartholomew favored communion when there is no such church nearby, and you say I am lying when it turns out it was Pat. Athenagoras?
Indeed. And spreading false accusations.
So three years ago I read this on the "True Orthodoxy" website, posted about it on OC.net, and now three years later I remember it online, but get the name of the specific Patriarch wrong...
Accidents are not allowed in Poland.

And mistakes are anathema there.
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