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Author Topic: Catholics commune in Armenian church?  (Read 1860 times) Average Rating: 0
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Anastasia1
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« on: February 16, 2013, 02:48:54 AM »

I've read/heard that the Armenian church will commune Catholics, and that in Armenia, there is less differentiation between the Armenian Catholic and the Armenian Orthodox. Why is this???  Are there any official statements on this in the Armenian church?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 03:02:57 AM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2013, 03:27:24 AM »

I also just read this. "The Syriac and Armenian Orthodox (along with at least one Orthodox jurisdiction in India) do commune Catholics with the full consent and agreement of both the Catholic and Orthodox leadership." from another forum.  Is that true???
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 03:34:05 AM »

I also just read this. "The Syriac and Armenian Orthodox (along with at least one Orthodox jurisdiction in India) do commune Catholics with the full consent and agreement of both the Catholic and Orthodox leadership." from another forum.  Is that true???
It would be very unfortunate if it were true. Sad
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 08:20:23 AM »

I also just read this. "The Syriac and Armenian Orthodox (along with at least one Orthodox jurisdiction in India) do commune Catholics with the full consent and agreement of both the Catholic and Orthodox leadership." from another forum.  Is that true???
It would be very unfortunate if it were true. Sad

I have not read this about the Syriacs but I thought it common knowledge with the Armenians.
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 09:04:09 AM »

I have not read this about the Syriacs but I thought it common knowledge with the Armenians.

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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 01:22:21 PM »

I also just read this. "The Syriac and Armenian Orthodox (along with at least one Orthodox jurisdiction in India) do commune Catholics with the full consent and agreement of both the Catholic and Orthodox leadership." from another forum.  Is that true???
It would be very unfortunate if it were true. Sad

Why unfortunate?

It just depends where you want to draw the line of ecumenism, which is pretty arbitrary between OO churches.

Some coptic churches have proudly adminsitered the sacraments, on a regular basis, to all sorts of Chalcedonian species (Byzantine, Latin and Prots) in the GTA area of Ontario, Canada. We should not protest when Armenians follow our blessed actions, if these news are true.  

Chalcedonians believe in the Trinity, the incarnation, same christian morals. This is enough. Why should we complicate matters when we have everything reduced to the common denominator?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 01:23:10 PM by Stavro » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 09:14:20 PM »

I also just read this. "The Syriac and Armenian Orthodox (along with at least one Orthodox jurisdiction in India) do commune Catholics with the full consent and agreement of both the Catholic and Orthodox leadership." from another forum.  Is that true???
It would be very unfortunate if it were true. Sad

I have not read this about the Syriacs but I thought it common knowledge with the Armenians.
It is? 

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 10:56:55 PM »

I also just read this. "The Syriac and Armenian Orthodox (along with at least one Orthodox jurisdiction in India) do commune Catholics with the full consent and agreement of both the Catholic and Orthodox leadership." from another forum.  Is that true???
It would be very unfortunate if it were true. Sad

I have not read this about the Syriacs but I thought it common knowledge with the Armenians.
It is? 

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Given that it has been posted here several times over the years and that we have a moderator who is Armenian and a hawk when it comes to spotting inaccuracies about her church, it would seem so. But then, THIS is the Internet as much as your post is also.

So...it is true, whether common, or common knowledge, or not?
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 11:03:13 PM »

Wow, a hawk!  Makes me sound kind of dangerous.   Smiley

Actually, I was kind of surprised by this thread when I first saw it.  I've never heard it stated by anyone reliable that the Armenian Church officially communes Catholics.  Could there be individual priests, or even bishops, who have done it?  I have no doubt that's happened.  That doesn't make it official policy, though.
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 11:11:11 PM »

Wow, a hawk!  Makes me sound kind of dangerous.   Smiley

Actually, I was kind of surprised by this thread when I first saw it.  I've never heard it stated by anyone reliable that the Armenian Church officially communes Catholics.  Could there be individual priests, or even bishops, who have done it?  I have no doubt that's happened.  That doesn't make it official policy, though.

You are dangerous, my sweet!  Cheesy

The OP did not mention "official"; I assumed general practice which was the impression I've gotten. But whatever you say.
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 11:19:07 PM »

The Syriacs definitely commune all baptized Christians. At the last Syriac liturgy I attended, served by Mor Filoksenos Yusuf Cetin, the bishop of Istanbul, it was announced that all baptized Christians could commune and a number of Anglicans and Roman Catholics did so. This is consistent with what I've seen and been told by other Syriac clergy. (And, for that matter, is the policy of most churches in the Middle East in practice...)
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 11:22:20 PM »

Quote
You are dangerous, my sweet! 

The OP did not mention "official"; I assumed general practice which was the impression I've gotten. But whatever you say.

I read Anastasia's first couple of posts as asking about official policy.  I could be wrong, though.  

I can't opine on general "unofficial" practice, as my experience is pretty limited to California.  There is a strong ecumenical sentiment where I am, which may lead some clergy to commune Catholics, although I can't say for sure.  I really could not say how widespread or common the practice is.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 11:24:10 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 11:23:17 PM »

The Syriacs definitely commune all baptized Christians. At the last Syriac liturgy I attended, served by Mor Filoksenos Yusuf Cetin, the bishop of Istanbul, it was announced that all baptized Christians could commune and a number of Anglicans and Roman Catholics did so. This is consistent with what I've seen and been told by other Syriac clergy. (And, for that matter, is the policy of most churches in the Middle East in practice...)

I've never seen this happen in an Armenian church, nor have I ever heard of that happening.  

What I was talking about was the possibility of individual clergy deciding to commune Catholics who may present themselves to the priest during communion.  Like I said, I would not be surprised if that has happened.  I don't, however, see what was described above in the Syriac Church ever happening in an Armenian parish.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 11:30:54 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2013, 11:31:06 PM »

OKAY with me!

I'll take that answer as our search function is too poor to locate our past threads on this and I've no pony in this race anyway.
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2013, 11:44:13 PM »

The Syriacs definitely commune all baptized Christians. At the last Syriac liturgy I attended, served by Mor Filoksenos Yusuf Cetin, the bishop of Istanbul, it was announced that all baptized Christians could commune and a number of Anglicans and Roman Catholics did so. This is consistent with what I've seen and been told by other Syriac clergy. (And, for that matter, is the policy of most churches in the Middle East in practice...)
This behavior is shameful. Sad
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 11:44:22 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2013, 03:25:59 AM »

I don't know what Mor Philoxenos Yusuf Cetin announced at a given date but as Salpy wrote it isn't official policy of the Syriac Church either (though I'm sure it's happened).

Quote
The Ecumenical Summit at Rome in 1984

It is in this background that the dialogue initiated by their predecessors were continued by their Holinesses Patriarch Mor Ignatius Zakka and Pope John Paul II.

....

We thus mark real progress on the path to unity, and we hope that, having confessed together Jesus Christ true God and true man as our one Lord, he will give us the grace to overcome the divergences which remain and which hinder full canonical and Eucharistic communion between us. We bless God for what we have regained in brotherhood already and for the advances we have made together.

I believe that is the last meeting of that kind with the RO-SOC only.

Also, I posted this video in another thread...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S91OyQBJqI4

This is more recent. Listen to 9:00 to 9:22: "if the catholic church they haven't church in one of the cities of Syria or everywhere and there is Syrian...". He wouldn't have said "if the Catholics don't have a Church" if it was OK either way.

If this was an official policy of the Church then the inter-communion with the Melkite Orthodox wouldn't be anything "special" (or something to specifically mention).
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2013, 04:10:23 AM »

Quote
You are dangerous, my sweet! 

The OP did not mention "official"; I assumed general practice which was the impression I've gotten. But whatever you say.

I read Anastasia's first couple of posts as asking about official policy.  I could be wrong, though.  

I can't opine on general "unofficial" practice, as my experience is pretty limited to California.  There is a strong ecumenical sentiment where I am, which may lead some clergy to commune Catholics, although I can't say for sure.  I really could not say how widespread or common the practice is.
This whole thing gets trotted out every now and then.  Claims that Armenians commune Catholics.  Purported agreements between Etchmiadzin and the Vatican sanctioning it.  "I've seen it."  "My priest told me..." "It's common knowledge..."

There is zero truth to any of it.  The internet has a way of making bad information suddenly "common knowledge."  So, put more clearly:

The Armenian Church has no official agreement, policy, or statement recognizing intercommunion with the Catholic Church.  The Armenian Church does not officially commune Catholics.  Period.
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2013, 04:44:39 AM »

I wonder whether it is too far-fetched to think that the improper practices might be simply due to lack of education caused by the genocide?
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 06:22:04 AM »

Two of the earlier threads are here and here.

Nothing much has changed since what was written in those, except that I understand that the Indian Churches (OO and OC) are now more open to the provision of pastoral care to one another's faithful than was the case back then, when they were both disinclined to follow the lead of their Syriac brethren in that regard.

Reality is that relations between the Catholic Church and the Syrian and Armenian Orthodox Churches are significantly closer than between the Catholics and any other of the OO Churches and, although I have never been able to find evidence of any formal agreement between either Holy Etchmiadzin or Cilicia and Rome, fraternal relations between those two ecclesia have a centuries long history.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 04:05:49 PM »

I wonder whether it is too far-fetched to think that the improper practices might be simply due to lack of education caused by the genocide?
What does the Genocide have to do with this?  And what verifiable "improper practices" are you talking about?
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Anastasia1
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2013, 06:12:02 PM »

I'm surprised that this just got dug up. I did a little more searching and what I had found was that it seems according to some sources that the intercommunion between the Armenians and the Catholics is at least with the Armenian Catholics who never acted as if their communion with the Armenian Orthodox was cut off, and that intercommuning was an unofficial MO in some places but was not official. According to one poster on a site, in Armenia, the rich Armenians attend the Armenian Catholic churches and the poorer Armenians attend the Armenian Orthodox churches regardless of whether or not they are actually Catholic or Orthodox.  The Syriacs however, supposedly have a joint-pastoral care agreement with regard to the Syriac Catholics (not sure if that is the exact rite name).

While communing EOs might seem to be a precedent set by the Coptics, receiving in a Catholic Church causes excommunication or something from the Coptic Church.  There are a lot of odd subtleties in these relationships compared to most Protestants...
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 06:16:04 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2013, 06:51:51 PM »

For what it's worth, our priests here in ABQ won't commune Chalcedonians of any stripe, though Stavro has commented that this seems like a minority opinion. It seems, from the point of view of someone new to all of this stuff, that perhaps the Syriacs and Armenians are relatively more open to ecumenism and eventual intercommunion with Catholics than either the Copts or the Ethiopians. Maybe I'm just surrounded by extremists, I don't know. Smiley But it might also have to do with the relative proliferation of non-Orthodox churches in their historical homelands, combined with the realities of having large diasporas in many non-Orthodox lands. I mean, I'm pretty sure that Catholics outnumber Orthodox in Iraq, and the Syriac Indians have been a minority within a minority for centuries now. It does not help matters that the Rome-affiliated churches that are made from former sections of these churches are encouraged to look and behave exactly like their mother churches. And then there's Protestantism, further watering everything down to a kind of "I'm okay, You're okay" pietism. Even the Tewahedo have experienced massive losses due to Protestantism, but those are recent (~ since the end of the Derg), so their attitude is still more defensive, rather than the Armenians (for instance), who have had to cope with the reality of a huge diaspora in primarily non-Orthodox countries for a long time now, which I have to imagine has an effect on how they relate to their faith vis-a-vis that of others.

I dunno...maybe that's all hogwash, I'm just trying to come up with some kind of charitable explanation for something I don't like.
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2013, 07:12:08 PM »

This whole thing gets trotted out every now and then.  Claims that Armenians commune Catholics.  Purported agreements between Etchmiadzin and the Vatican sanctioning it.  "I've seen it."  "My priest told me..." "It's common knowledge..."

There is zero truth to any of it.  The internet has a way of making bad information suddenly "common knowledge."  So, put more clearly:

The Armenian Church has no official agreement, policy, or statement recognizing intercommunion with the Catholic Church.  The Armenian Church does not officially commune Catholics.  Period.

Zero truth to any of it? There may be no official agreements, but that doesn't mean there's zero truth to unofficial communion. It may be less common than purported on here, but to imply it doesn't happen at all despite people seeing it themselves?

Maybe I misunderstood, and you were only referring to official communion.
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2013, 07:25:12 PM »

Samn! just said he witnessed the Armenian Bishop of Istanbul call all baptized Christians to receive.

Syriac Bishop*
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« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2013, 07:27:04 PM »

According to one poster on a site, in Armenia, the rich Armenians attend the Armenian Catholic churches and the poorer Armenians attend the Armenian Orthodox churches regardless of whether or not they are actually Catholic or Orthodox.  
Considering there is no sizable Armenian Catholic presence in Armenia, and what exists there is small and scattered, this is absolutely false as any kind of general trend or statement of blanket truth.

Again, don't believe everything you read on the internet.  
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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2013, 07:28:09 PM »

This whole thing gets trotted out every now and then.  Claims that Armenians commune Catholics.  Purported agreements between Etchmiadzin and the Vatican sanctioning it.  "I've seen it."  "My priest told me..." "It's common knowledge..."

There is zero truth to any of it.  The internet has a way of making bad information suddenly "common knowledge."  So, put more clearly:

The Armenian Church has no official agreement, policy, or statement recognizing intercommunion with the Catholic Church.  The Armenian Church does not officially commune Catholics.  Period.

Zero truth to any of it? Samn! just said he witnessed the Armenian Bishop of Istanbul call all baptized Christians to receive. There may be no official agreements, but that doesn't mean there's zero truth to unofficial communion. It may be less common than purported on here, but to imply it doesn't happen at all despite people seeing it themselves?

Maybe I misunderstood, and you were only referring to official communion.
I was.  Isolated incidents presented as anecdotal evidence do not equal official policy.
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« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2013, 07:32:35 PM »

This is more recent. Listen to 9:00 to 9:22: "if the catholic church they haven't church in one of the cities of Syria or everywhere and there is Syrian...". He wouldn't have said "if the Catholics don't have a Church" if it was OK either way.

That's essentially the same as the pastoral agreements between the EO and OO churches of Antioch, which kind of puts that whole thing into perspective.
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« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2013, 07:34:03 PM »

Samn! just said he witnessed the Armenian Bishop of Istanbul call all baptized Christians to receive.

Syriac Bishop*

Oops, edited my post.
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« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2013, 09:46:45 PM »

I've read/heard that the Armenian church will commune Catholics, and that in Armenia, there is less differentiation between the Armenian Catholic and the Armenian Orthodox. Why is this???  Are there any official statements on this in the Armenian church?

The Syriac Orthodox Church is the only Oriental Orthodox Church that I am aware of that has issued an official declaration with the Catholic Church for pastoral communing of each others members.

"9.Our identity in faith, though not yet complete, entitles us to envisage collaboration between our Churches in pastoral care, in situations which nowadays are frequent both because of the dispersion of our faithful throughout the world and because of the precarious conditions of these difficult times. It is not rare, in fact, for our faithful to find access to a priest of their own Church materially or morally impossible. Anxious to meet their needs and with their spiritual benefit in mind, we authorize them in such cases to ask for the Sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from lawful priests of either of our two sister Churches, when they need them."
http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/rc.html
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 09:48:05 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

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