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Author Topic: reasons for rejecting the bible/religion/whatever  (Read 3447 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jason.Wike
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« on: February 15, 2013, 11:02:15 PM »

(ok, so this is going to be kinda vague since I'm trying to keep it short)

It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2013, 08:43:13 PM »

(ok, so this is going to be kinda vague since I'm trying to keep it short)

It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.

Hey, I can frequently read the Bible and not really know what it means  Wink.  However, I do not reject it or its message (to the extent that I know what it means, that is Wink).

On a more serious note, I think a lot of people reject Christ and Christianity because, well...it's not about *them*, and when they do realize that it means things like suffering and bearing crosses, well, heck...what fun is that?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2013, 10:47:42 PM »

(ok, so this is going to be kinda vague since I'm trying to keep it short)

It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.

Doing your own will is the fundamental of satanism.

Google "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".   You'll find a satanist behind that quote.
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 01:36:15 AM »

Want to know what I think? I think that people are rejecting Christianity because they are trying to read the Bible and understand God on their own or with the guidance of these weirdo tele-evangelists on TV, opposed to understanding it all through the lense of the Orthodox Church--which is the context by which the Bible was meant to be interpreted through (1 Tim 3:5).
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 02:27:02 AM »

People reject religion, the Bible, God, the whole enchilada, because there is no real compelling factor in life for religion anymore.  Sure, some people are poor or sick and find solace in religion, but most people recognize that they can be successful without God.  Sure, they might not "get to heaven," but they have a home, a family, and food on the table.  What else do they need? 

I find that, personally, when I'm confronted with a bunch of scriptural writings about how I should amend my life, or a sermon at Church or something, I can't help but say "But I don't caaaaare!"

The spiritual aspect of things isn't really the most important part of life when one has what they need.
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 02:51:29 AM »

People reject religion, the Bible, God, the whole enchilada, because there is no real compelling factor in life for religion anymore.  Sure, some people are poor or sick and find solace in religion, but most people recognize that they can be successful without God.  Sure, they might not "get to heaven," but they have a home, a family, and food on the table.  What else do they need? 

I find that, personally, when I'm confronted with a bunch of scriptural writings about how I should amend my life, or a sermon at Church or something, I can't help but say "But I don't caaaaare!"

The spiritual aspect of things isn't really the most important part of life when one has what they need.
Is that successful?

No amount of idols can fill the gap left in the soul where the Holy Spirit should reside.
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 02:21:21 PM »

I would agree that many turn from Christianity because of misconceptions. I certainly did. If I understand you correctly you're looking for book reference that explains Christianity in general layman terms?

It's an older book, and the author was not Orthodox, but I still think ‘Mere Christianity’ by C.S.Lewis does an outstanding job of that. Titled accordingly as he intentionally tried to avoid the primary differences in denominations, to focus on the basic (mere) fundamental beliefs shared by most forms of Christianity. Others can chime in if they disagree but I think it is generally accepted by Orthodox, most Protestants, and the RCC.

In a different book the same author offers a witty quote pertaining to the "I want to do whatever I want to do" reason for rejecting Christianity that you mentioned:

"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “All right, then, have it your way.” - C.S. Lewis

I am about to sit down and begin ‘Indication of the Way Into the Kingdom of Heaven’ by Saint Innocent. A Priest let my daughter borrow it and she recommended it to me. It was apparently used in the early to mid 1800's to introduce the Gospel (Orthodoxy) to Alaskan Natives. I have only read over the intro thus far but it seems to be a nice depiction of The Word in layman terms.

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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 04:59:21 PM »

(ok, so this is going to be kinda vague since I'm trying to keep it short)

It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.

Doing your own will is the fundamental of satanism.

Google "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".   You'll find a satanist behind that quote.

Do we have to do this again?
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2013, 05:14:36 PM »

It's "...thou wilt..." anyway.
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 06:22:29 PM »

Then get a OSB orthodox study bible.
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2013, 09:15:15 PM »

(ok, so this is going to be kinda vague since I'm trying to keep it short)

It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.

Doing your own will is the fundamental of satanism.

Google "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".   You'll find a satanist behind that quote.

Do we have to do this again?

Do what again?  He said the #1 reason for people reject bible/religion/whatever was "I want to do whatever I want to do".

That *IS* the teaching of the satanic church, in Crowley's writings, and is pretty much stated in the Wicca creed.

I was just relaying the information.   I think it is very important for people who believe that they "want to do what they want" to understand that is *exactly* what Lucifer did, and *exactly* what Satanists preach.

I also believe that the OP was correct, that people "wanting to do what they want" is one of the largest reasons people are not Christians.
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2013, 11:25:11 AM »

Threads like this give me a headache. The, ah, "reasons" that most of you are throwing out here aren't my own, or those of a great many people I've talked to who have left whatever religion they were brought up in.

I don't quite know what you mean when you talk about "rejecting" the Bible. As far as rejecting religioin goes, I haven't been able to accept any given religion's historical and/or metaphysical claims, so yeah, I guess you could say I've rejected them. I can't say that emotion had much to do with it, nor did I reject them simply because I don't want them to be true. And desire for sex certainly doesn't have anything to do with it.
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2013, 01:37:04 PM »

Yes, echoing the sentiments of the poster above me, the reasons presented by most here are quite removed from reality. While there are likely some who have left religion on account of libertinism, it is most certainly not the cause of most cases. Examine history as well as the present. In both instances, people are more than capable of remaining nominally religious whilst behaving as fiends. Those who have left to pursue selfishness have simply jumped aboard, so to speak, an already sailing ship. Most reasons resemble something like (and I will leave it to your judgment how fair or poor these reasons are) :

1) Not having an expected spiritual experience. This is especially true in certain Protestant sects where such things are anticipated. Many people get nothing from prayer.

2) Perception of the church as a source of strife and division. For the most part, the church (in fact, religion in general) has grown with the times and adjusted its morals accordingly. This, however, is not true in all cases (e.g. some churches' condemnation of homosexuality). Those who leave for this reason oft see the church as a symbol a bigotry and disunity (if not outright hatred).

3) Perception of the church as anti-science. While most churches have relented and accepted the truth in evolution, the few that hold out have more or less served as a strawman for Christianity in general.

4) Hypocrisy. While hypocrisy is no new phenomenon, the new cultural climate (that is the western trend of abandoning religion) makes people more likely to leave for such reasons. Hypocrisy/scandal can come from a pastor, priest, or even another layperson.

5) Ecumenism/Cultural Exchange. Not a direct cause, but a significant factor. The technology of today along with globalism have given rise to a greater understanding of other religions. The average person has a more accurate conception (or at least less propagandized one) of what other religions teach. Perennialism, indifferentism, or even conversion are possibilities. At the very least, holding to religious exclusivism is harder now than it has been in quite some time.

Of course there are plenty of other reasons (such as reasons logical) people abandon faith (some of which have been mentioned in the aforementioned posts). Neither I, nor anyone I know (with perhaps one exception) has left faith/religion on account of earthly pleasure.
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« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2013, 05:43:17 PM »

On a more serious note, I think a lot of people reject Christ and Christianity because, well...it's not about *them*, and when they are deceived by false teachers into thinking that it means things like suffering and bearing crosses, well, heck...what fun is that?  Roll Eyes

Corrected you, as Jesus Christ(God) never wants us to suffer, He said,

John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

and

Matthew 10:22, and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Jesus Christ wants us to suffer when for Him, if necessary(aka Martyrdom) for His Name Sake, not for nothing, if there is nothing to suffer for, no prosecution etc, then in no way does God want anyone to suffer, and even in suffering for His Name Sake/Him, under prosecution, He still doesn't want anyone to suffer, the Christian life in the early Christian days was full of suffering, so yes God would require them to suffer for His sake, but now this has diminished, so the Christian life is less suffering, but of receiving Life from Jesus Christ(YHWH), now if you're under prosecution you are to suffer for His sake.

Jesus Christ only expects you to suffer for Him, for what is right, for His sake, therefore only If necessary, if not then there is not reason to suffer, just don't sin, help and love your neighbor, and help them stop suffering. so God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) allows us to suffer because He has to, to give us free will beings eternal life,(as proven here http://savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-problem-of-suffering-permanently.html  ) to build perseverance, and so others can repent.

So no, The Christian Life, the life God(The Father, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit) gives us is not a life of suffering, only under prosecution(any I might add, minor or major like martyrdom)

The life of this world(sin) is a life of suffering, sadness, no joy, depression, unsatisfaction, evil desires that harm others or themselves, not The Life God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gives us.

Other false burdens are like for example, burdening those who are homosexual, when homosexuality isn't even a sin, they are missing out on God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) because one of the folks mentioned by The Holy Spirit through Paul(1 Timothy 4:1-5, 4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.)

People decide to make their own doctrines, 1 Timothy 6:20-21 20O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”—21which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.


We need to start teaching The Truth Doctrines of The Old and New Testament and stop causing others to stumble, I once did this and now suffer guilt(and I hope never do it again, will always check if The Doctrines I have are correct and Biblical), but I repented,


Luke 17:1-4,

And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2013, 09:08:16 PM »

You should Reject the bible cause it was put together by Evil Saint Constantine in the third century in the council of Nicea where he influenced and forced all of those poor Bishops to accept his four gospels over hte three hundred possibly more true Gospels than the ones we have.

But in all seriousness, most people who reject the bible do it out of face value, no deep study or conclusions drawn from actually reading the thing. They see things they think are:

absurd, Talking donkeys, Slaying of a thousand men with a Jawbone from a donkey

Immoral, Israel being commaded to kill all the inhabitants of Canaan to the last woman and child

or what they perceive as just weird and totally nonsensical, book of revelation.

Nothing will solve their preconceived notions unless they have some interest in studying this, unless they ask themselves the question and seriously reflect on it "is there a meaning I am missing?"
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2013, 04:44:25 AM »

Old testament is too horrible,bloody and voilence?
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 07:09:48 AM »

They think if they tell themselves something enough times, it will become true.  They aren’t the ones who worry me.  The ones who worry me are those who accept only the parts they like and disregard the parts they don’t.  Cherry picking Christianity. 

I second the suggestion of Mere Christianity.
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 07:47:43 PM »

They think if they tell themselves something enough times, it will become true.  They aren’t the ones who worry me.  The ones who worry me are those who accept only the parts they like and disregard the parts they don’t.  Cherry picking Christianity. 

I second the suggestion of Mere Christianity.

Give us examples of cherry picking, if you mean that they do certain sins(evils) then we agree, but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction), then there is hypocrisy as one would call things not sin, a sin, proving 1 Timothy 4 True.
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 08:00:53 PM »

but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction)

Do you read the Scriptures with blindfolds on or something?
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2013, 08:54:18 PM »

but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction)

Do you read the Scriptures with blindfolds on or something?

No, he just went the Thomas Jefferson route and threw out the parts he didn't like.



One reason that many people I have talked to use is that they can not see how a murderer or a rapist can possibly get to Heaven, while the President of a Charity (or some other generally good person) would go to Hell for not being a Christian.
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 08:58:50 PM »

but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction)

Do you read the Scriptures with blindfolds on or something?

Often it is the blind man who sees the most.
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« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2013, 09:13:54 PM »

but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction)

Do you read the Scriptures with blindfolds on or something?

Often it is the blind man who sees the most.

Except when ditches are involved
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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2013, 10:03:17 AM »

(ok, so this is going to be kinda vague since I'm trying to keep it short)

It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.

It would be difficult to summarize why each individual opts out of Christianity, if they were ever a part of it anyway.

A book "Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies" by David Bentley Hart, has received some good reviews.  It's published by Yale University Press.  He doesn't write about social psychology / sociology though.  He writes more from an historical perspective.  I have it, but haven't read it yet because I'm not too interested in New Atheist debates, which often are attacks on Christians and Christianity based on the history of the western Roman Catholic Church, and now on Emperor Constantine.  The historical / historiography analysis might be interesting though.  Somewhere I read or heard that David Hart is Orthodox, but I'm not certain about that.
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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2013, 05:29:27 PM »

but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction)

Do you read the Scriptures with blindfolds on or something?

Nope I read The Bible with my eyes open, if I didn't I'd be committing life ruining sins, I used to believe homosexual, premarital sex, and even sexual attraction to be a sin, when this was made up by man, not God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

For Homosexuality, Every sin punishable by death is repeated in Deuteronomy, yet in Deut. it isn't there but Temple Prostitution is.

For Premarital Sex, see Acts420 he utterly destroyed the man made doctrine of premarital sex being sin

For Sexual Attraction, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) never condemned it, yet promoted it, Matt. 5:27-28 in Greek is about Adultery not "lusting", God created sex and sexual desires, and God promotes sexual desires(By Solomon),

Proverbs 5:

15 Drink water from your own cistern,
    running water from your own well.
16 Should your springs overflow in the streets,
    your streams of water in the public squares?
17 Let them be yours alone,
    never to be shared with strangers.
18 May your fountain be blessed,
    and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
    may her breasts satisfy you always,
    may you ever be intoxicated with her love.
20 Why, my son, be intoxicated with another man’s wife?
    Why embrace the bosom of a wayward woman?

What I notice is that everything that is sin harms another person(or themselves) unjustly.
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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2013, 05:35:39 PM »

Note it says "the wife of your youth."

"The wife."

Not, "any random stranger."
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2013, 10:56:20 PM »

Thanks for the suggestions.

Nothing will solve their preconceived notions unless they have some interest in studying this, unless they ask themselves the question and seriously reflect on it "is there a meaning I am missing?"

^That is definitely important. If more people would think "Why did Jesus say this?" or "Why did something so extreme happen?" rather then go "OMG, that is horrible!" or "They just don't want me to have fun" (which honestly is what every last atheist I've read from or talked to expressed, that religion is all just a conspiracy to keep them from doing something sensuous or enthralling) it would be better.
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2013, 10:57:11 PM »

I have asked this question a lot.  The answer that keeps coming up (I get into a lot of discussions on this) is that the average person does not see anything in the average Christian that sets him / her apart from themselves.  I struggle with this continuously even in the "Orthodox" Church.  Simply put, the average Orthodox Christian seems to me to be no happier, heathier, spiritual, holy, or better than most of the people that I saw in my former Churches.  If anything, I would say that the "average" Orthodox Christian that I have met often appears less of those things than the "average" person of my former Churches.  Granted, I have seen some pretty Holy people in the Orthodox Church, and that is pretty much what keeps me going - the fact that there are people in this Church that I want to be like one day.  The problem is, that is not what most people see when they walk into the "average" Church of any denomination, and it is sure as heck not what they see when they see me.  Most of the highly liberalized Churches in this country really have nothing to offer.  If you really want to understand why people reject God, ask yourself what they see in YOU that would at all cause them to think that there is a God.
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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2013, 01:55:44 AM »

Thanks for the suggestions.

Nothing will solve their preconceived notions unless they have some interest in studying this, unless they ask themselves the question and seriously reflect on it "is there a meaning I am missing?"

^That is definitely important. If more people would think "Why did Jesus say this?" or "Why did something so extreme happen?" rather then go "OMG, that is horrible!" or "They just don't want me to have fun" (which honestly is what every last atheist I've read from or talked to expressed, that religion is all just a conspiracy to keep them from doing something sensuous or enthralling) it would be better.
I believe you meant to attribute that quote to someone else.
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2013, 03:12:17 AM »

Note it says "the wife of your youth."

"The wife."

Not, "any random stranger."

I think the issue here comes down to the context of marriage. What many people ignore is that there really was no such thing as fornication back during the time of the Old Testament. People were generally married off the moment they reached sexual maturity or were kept under close watch in their parents' household. There really wasn't a such thing as dating or going out. And even in the rare occassion that two unmarried people did have sex/fornicate, they were considered married. The man simply paid a dowry to the woman's father as a consequence.
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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2013, 03:13:48 AM »

I have asked this question a lot.  The answer that keeps coming up (I get into a lot of discussions on this) is that the average person does not see anything in the average Christian that sets him / her apart from themselves.  I struggle with this continuously even in the "Orthodox" Church.  Simply put, the average Orthodox Christian seems to me to be no happier, heathier, spiritual, holy, or better than most of the people that I saw in my former Churches.  If anything, I would say that the "average" Orthodox Christian that I have met often appears less of those things than the "average" person of my former Churches.  Granted, I have seen some pretty Holy people in the Orthodox Church, and that is pretty much what keeps me going - the fact that there are people in this Church that I want to be like one day.  The problem is, that is not what most people see when they walk into the "average" Church of any denomination, and it is sure as heck not what they see when they see me.  Most of the highly liberalized Churches in this country really have nothing to offer.  If you really want to understand why people reject God, ask yourself what they see in YOU that would at all cause them to think that there is a God.

I always like to look to the Monastics to remind me that God still works through His Church--even if we don't allow Him to fully illumine us.
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« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2013, 05:26:44 AM »

Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.
The reason people are rejecting Christianity appears to me to be the simple fact that we no longer live in a society in which Christianity developed as the religion of state. Christianity developed as the official state religion of the Roman Empire which for over a millenium was the model fo all later medieval Christian kingdoms. The further from Byzantium the more watered down religion became until we arrive at the secular Christianity of US TV Evangelists. This is because the legacy of the development in the interaction between scholars and theologians was not completely carried over to the newer forms of Christianity, in short it lost all context. You can't just pick up the Bible, read and understanding it fully without appreciating the context in which it developed.

2) They can read the bible but don't know what it means.
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« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2013, 06:04:45 AM »

They think if they tell themselves something enough times, it will become true.  They aren’t the ones who worry me.  The ones who worry me are those who accept only the parts they like and disregard the parts they don’t.  Cherry picking Christianity. 

I second the suggestion of Mere Christianity.

Give us examples of cherry picking, if you mean that they do certain sins(evils) then we agree, but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction), then there is hypocrisy as one would call things not sin, a sin, proving 1 Timothy 4 True.

The hypocrisy is saying sin is not sin.  Cherry picking.
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« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2013, 06:06:37 AM »

but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction)

Do you read the Scriptures with blindfolds on or something?

Nope I read The Bible with my eyes open, if I didn't I'd be committing life ruining sins, I used to believe homosexual, premarital sex, and even sexual attraction to be a sin, when this was made up by man, not God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

For Homosexuality, Every sin punishable by death is repeated in Deuteronomy, yet in Deut. it isn't there but Temple Prostitution is.

For Premarital Sex, see Acts420 he utterly destroyed the man made doctrine of premarital sex being sin

For Sexual Attraction, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) never condemned it, yet promoted it, Matt. 5:27-28 in Greek is about Adultery not "lusting", God created sex and sexual desires, and God promotes sexual desires(By Solomon),

Proverbs 5:

15 Drink water from your own cistern,
    running water from your own well.
16 Should your springs overflow in the streets,
    your streams of water in the public squares?
17 Let them be yours alone,
    never to be shared with strangers.
18 May your fountain be blessed,
    and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
    may her breasts satisfy you always,
    may you ever be intoxicated with her love.
20 Why, my son, be intoxicated with another man’s wife?
    Why embrace the bosom of a wayward woman?

What I notice is that everything that is sin harms another person(or themselves) unjustly.
You bought the propaganda hook, line and sinker, then asked for more. 
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« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2013, 08:33:40 AM »

Doing your own will is the fundamental of satanism.

Aren't you the one who has invented your own confession by yourself?
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« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2013, 02:51:35 PM »

I have asked this question a lot.  The answer that keeps coming up (I get into a lot of discussions on this) is that the average person does not see anything in the average Christian that sets him / her apart from themselves.  I struggle with this continuously even in the "Orthodox" Church.  Simply put, the average Orthodox Christian seems to me to be no happier, heathier, spiritual, holy, or better than most of the people that I saw in my former Churches.  If anything, I would say that the "average" Orthodox Christian that I have met often appears less of those things than the "average" person of my former Churches.  Granted, I have seen some pretty Holy people in the Orthodox Church, and that is pretty much what keeps me going - the fact that there are people in this Church that I want to be like one day.  The problem is, that is not what most people see when they walk into the "average" Church of any denomination, and it is sure as heck not what they see when they see me.  Most of the highly liberalized Churches in this country really have nothing to offer.  If you really want to understand why people reject God, ask yourself what they see in YOU that would at all cause them to think that there is a God.

Have you always had this gift of discernment, before becoming Orthodox?
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« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2013, 03:26:13 PM »

(ok, so this is going to be kinda vague since I'm trying to keep it short)

It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.

I see it as the opposite, people cling to Christianity -- especially evangelical/Protestant Christianity due to "feelings".  There are a lot of hurting people, and unfortunately Jesus is reduced to their emotional blanket.  The reason why I am no longer Christian is mostly I've concluded that there isn't nearly as much evidence as I thought to have established the existence of the Apostles, or the details of their lives.  Many of the apocryphal accounts we have of their lives, which were influenced by Tradition cannot be said to be for certain.   Many of them we are not even sure how they were said to have died, or if Thomas really went to India for instance especially with its current political boundaries as a nation.

But I do agree that there's some things in the Bible that I don't understand.  Like why God seems to command people to wipe out entire tribes such as the Amalekites for instance,  or why in 2 Kings the prophet Elisha sends a pack of bears to maul some youths for merely calling him "baldhead".  Why Christianity and Judaism look at the same Scriptures, but drifted so far apart theologically that they no longer understood each other?   I don't know if this thread is a place to ask those questions, but I'm still looking for answers.   And I know sometimes on OC.net things can get a little heated, but I'm wanting to keep all such discussions professional and civil.  I'd continue with other questions, if anyone's willing to engage -- if not, I would understand. 
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« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2013, 03:37:41 PM »



I see it as the opposite, people cling to Christianity -- especially evangelical/Protestant Christianity due to "feelings".  There are a lot of hurting people, and unfortunately Jesus is reduced to their emotional blanket.  The reason why I am no longer Christian is mostly I've concluded that there isn't nearly as much evidence as I thought to have established the existence of the Apostles, or the details of their lives.  Many of the apocryphal accounts we have of their lives, which were influenced by Tradition cannot be said to be for certain.   Many of them we are not even sure how they were said to have died, or if Thomas really went to India for instance especially with its current political boundaries as a nation.

Who spread the faith if not the apostles? Almost no-one in the first century AD can be proven to exist. There are even some theories that claim that all works, or most works, of Antiquity were actually written by monks in the Middle Ages.
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« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2013, 03:53:46 PM »



I see it as the opposite, people cling to Christianity -- especially evangelical/Protestant Christianity due to "feelings".  There are a lot of hurting people, and unfortunately Jesus is reduced to their emotional blanket.  The reason why I am no longer Christian is mostly I've concluded that there isn't nearly as much evidence as I thought to have established the existence of the Apostles, or the details of their lives.  Many of the apocryphal accounts we have of their lives, which were influenced by Tradition cannot be said to be for certain.   Many of them we are not even sure how they were said to have died, or if Thomas really went to India for instance especially with its current political boundaries as a nation.

Who spread the faith if not the apostles? Almost no-one in the first century AD can be proven to exist. There are even some theories that claim that all works, or most works, of Antiquity were actually written by monks in the Middle Ages.

It helps when your religion becomes the religion of the State, especially in a power-house such as the Eastern Roman Empire.  I am just assuming here, that these missionaries had the support of the Emperor when they went somewhere.   As to before that, the best I can say is by word of mouth -- I cannot say "who" specifically, but I do know that the Gospels themselves even though they were attributed to the Apostles.. probably had other authors.   There were many competing religious ideologies in the Mediterranean at the time, and it just so happened that Christianity was a lot easier to join.. than say the Mithraist cult was with its secret rituals reserved only for a few.  I'd be glad to be wrong about the above, but that's what I'm thinking.
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« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2013, 01:37:13 AM »



I see it as the opposite, people cling to Christianity -- especially evangelical/Protestant Christianity due to "feelings".  There are a lot of hurting people, and unfortunately Jesus is reduced to their emotional blanket.  The reason why I am no longer Christian is mostly I've concluded that there isn't nearly as much evidence as I thought to have established the existence of the Apostles, or the details of their lives.  Many of the apocryphal accounts we have of their lives, which were influenced by Tradition cannot be said to be for certain.   Many of them we are not even sure how they were said to have died, or if Thomas really went to India for instance especially with its current political boundaries as a nation.

Who spread the faith if not the apostles? Almost no-one in the first century AD can be proven to exist. There are even some theories that claim that all works, or most works, of Antiquity were actually written by monks in the Middle Ages.

It helps when your religion becomes the religion of the State, especially in a power-house such as the Eastern Roman Empire.  I am just assuming here, that these missionaries had the support of the Emperor when they went somewhere.   As to before that, the best I can say is by word of mouth -- I cannot say "who" specifically, but I do know that the Gospels themselves even though they were attributed to the Apostles.. probably had other authors.   There were many competing religious ideologies in the Mediterranean at the time, and it just so happened that Christianity was a lot easier to join.. than say the Mithraist cult was with its secret rituals reserved only for a few.  I'd be glad to be wrong about the above, but that's what I'm thinking.

Mithraism was actually very, very widespread (all the way to the most remote border forts in Scotland). Also, Christianity was secret and reserved for the few in the beginning... remember "catechumens depart"?
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« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2013, 06:49:52 PM »

Have you always had this gift of discernment, before becoming Orthodox?
I don't know about any particular "gift".  Perhaps I was already Orthodox in belief before I was ever exposed to an "Orthodox" Church.  Perhaps I am still Lutheran in belief after being baptized Orthodox.  I do know that not many of my former beliefs changed, but rather a few holes in what I believed were filled.  I guess that I will find out the Truth before too long.  I probably have far less time to live than I have lived already.
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« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2013, 11:34:19 PM »

Have you always had this gift of discernment, before becoming Orthodox?
I don't know about any particular "gift".  Perhaps I was already Orthodox in belief before I was ever exposed to an "Orthodox" Church.

How could you be certain?

Perhaps I am still Lutheran in belief after being baptized Orthodox.

Why do you say that?

I do know that not many of my former beliefs changed, but rather a few holes in what I believed were filled.

No new holes were created?

I guess that I will find out the Truth before too long.  I probably have far less time to live than I have lived already.

I hope you are well.
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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2013, 09:47:17 AM »

Have you always had this gift of discernment, before becoming Orthodox?
I don't know about any particular "gift".  Perhaps I was already Orthodox in belief before I was ever exposed to an "Orthodox" Church.

How could you be certain?

Perhaps I am still Lutheran in belief after being baptized Orthodox.

Why do you say that?

I do know that not many of my former beliefs changed, but rather a few holes in what I believed were filled.

No new holes were created?

I guess that I will find out the Truth before too long.  I probably have far less time to live than I have lived already.

I hope you are well.

1. I am never totally certain about anything.  I only believe on the preponderance of the evidence presented to me.
2. How does the priest really know what is in the heart. 
3. I would not say so.  If I answered in the way that you probably intended, I would have to agree with you.  But probably the biggest hole that was filled was the way that I view holes.  My Lutheranism (as well as my early Orthodoxy) was very black and white.  That left a lot of grey area as a large hole.  Orthodoxy has shown me that to some extent, that grey area is quite alright.  We do not have to know everything, nor are we under any obligation to try to explain what has not be revealed to us.  As such, I have become much more comfortable with not knowing everything, and therefor it is no longer a hole for me.  Does that make sense to you?
4.  I am not, but thank you for your hope.
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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2013, 03:14:55 PM »

Have you always had this gift of discernment, before becoming Orthodox?
I don't know about any particular "gift".  Perhaps I was already Orthodox in belief before I was ever exposed to an "Orthodox" Church.

How could you be certain?

Perhaps I am still Lutheran in belief after being baptized Orthodox.

Why do you say that?

I do know that not many of my former beliefs changed, but rather a few holes in what I believed were filled.

No new holes were created?

I guess that I will find out the Truth before too long.  I probably have far less time to live than I have lived already.

I hope you are well.

1. I am never totally certain about anything.  I only believe on the preponderance of the evidence presented to me.

I'm certain about what I believe.  My practice (praxis) may not be where I want it to be; however, my faith isn't based on preponderance of the evidence but absolute belief in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

2. How does the priest really know what is in the heart.

Have you discussed that with your Priest?
 
3. I would not say so.  If I answered in the way that you probably intended, I would have to agree with you.  But probably the biggest hole that was filled was the way that I view holes.  My Lutheranism (as well as my early Orthodoxy) was very black and white.  That left a lot of grey area as a large hole.  Orthodoxy has shown me that to some extent, that grey area is quite alright. 

Sometimes, I live in a black and white world as well.  When it comes to Orthodox faith, I've seen a lot of grey areas and I've had a few holes that I've had to fill and acknowledge that some of the holes were my fault.

We do not have to know everything, nor are we under any obligation to try to explain what has not be revealed to us.  As such, I have become much more comfortable with not knowing everything, and therefor it is no longer a hole for me.  Does that make sense to you?

Yes.  Some things are a mystery that defy explanation or logic.

4.  I am not, but thank you for your hope.

You are in my prayers.   angel
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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2013, 04:43:40 PM »

I'm certain about what I believe.  My practice (praxis) may not be where I want it to be; however, my faith isn't based on preponderance of the evidence but absolute belief in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

But isn't that a rather meaningless statement?  I used to confess the same thing as a Lutheran.  So do Anglicans.  So to Roman Catholics for that matter.  And, each claim to be that Church.  I am certain, based on the preponderance of what I have read, that they are wrong.  But I was not born believing that, nor did I spend the first 33 years of my life believing that.   
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« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2013, 08:46:41 PM »

Doing your own will is the fundamental of satanism.

Aren't you the one who has invented your own confession by yourself?

No.  I follow the commands of God.   See it's men's will that messes up God's will.

For example your church doesn't understand this:  Exodus 20:4 (Words of God Bolded)

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, or serve them.




"My confession" is just trying to do the will of God, which is exactly the opposite of how it seems to me, that you are trying to portray me.

The irony I see in this this is that EO have allowed the will of men (bishops), the tradition of men (bishops), and the vote of men's will (which they call God's will) to trick them into directly disobeying the commandment of God.  The EO can only become frustratingly angered, because to admit that they do not follow the commands of God, would be admitting they could no longer be EO.   (That is if their love for the church itself exceeded that of the love for God).

The reason I can't be EO, is because I love God and wish to follow God's will.   When the will of men can convince you to do the DIRECT OPPOSITE of that which God has commanded you NOT to do, then who's will is it? 

So attacks do come at me, but it is from frustrated people because they don't know what else to say.  IMHO, this stuff is not arguable.  Look at the photo, they are disobeying God's commandment in Exodus 20:4 - plain and simple.

So I ask you two questions -

1) If I obey the commands of God - Whose will am I following?

2) If I bow to images of the likeness of things in heaven & disobeying the command of God - Who's will am I following?

I'm sorry if this seems attacking, but please just try to see it at face value.   Read the command, look at the photo (I know you don't have to because it happens all the time in EO).

My own confession is to do the will of God, not follow the disobedience that has been passed down post 300 A.D.   
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« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2013, 08:54:55 PM »

Doing your own will is the fundamental of satanism.

Aren't you the one who has invented your own confession by yourself?

No.  I follow the commands of God.   See it's men's will that messes up God's will.

For example your church doesn't understand this:  Exodus 20:4 (Words of God Bolded)

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, or serve them.




"My confession" is just trying to do the will of God, which is exactly the opposite of how it seems to me, that you are trying to portray me.

The irony I see in this this is that EO have allowed the will of men (bishops), the tradition of men (bishops), and the vote of men's will (which they call God's will) to trick them into directly disobeying the commandment of God.  The EO can only become frustratingly angered, because to admit that they do not follow the commands of God, would be admitting they could no longer be EO.   (That is if their love for the church itself exceeded that of the love for God).

The reason I can't be EO, is because I love God and wish to follow God's will.   When the will of men can convince you to do the DIRECT OPPOSITE of that which God has commanded you NOT to do, then who's will is it? 

So attacks do come at me, but it is from frustrated people because they don't know what else to say.  IMHO, this stuff is not arguable.  Look at the photo, they are disobeying God's commandment in Exodus 20:4 - plain and simple.

So I ask you two questions -

1) If I obey the commands of God - Whose will am I following?

2) If I bow to images of the likeness of things in heaven & disobeying the command of God - Who's will am I following?

I'm sorry if this seems attacking, but please just try to see it at face value.   Read the command, look at the photo (I know you don't have to because it happens all the time in EO).

My own confession is to do the will of God, not follow the disobedience that has been passed down post 300 A.D.   
Yesh, if you want to be a Jew, then go all out and become a Jew. Stop hiding behind the name "Christian".
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« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2013, 09:57:28 PM »

Read the command, look at the photo (I know you don't have to because it happens all the time in EO).

My own confession is to do the will of God, not follow the disobedience that has been passed down post 300 A.D.   

"Let us go into His dwelling place; Let us worship at His footstool." (Ps. 131:7)

"Come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker." (Ps. 94:6) - Most Orthodox services begin with this admonition repeated thrice. Latin Matins also begin with this Psalm and the rubrics prescribe kneeling when this verse is spoken.

I wish there was a photo of Temple worship so I could post it here. But you've read Hebrews - you know what was in there:

"The Holy of Holies,having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat." (Hebrews 9:3-5)

As for bowing down before Saints (who are not rival gods of the sky, earth or underworld, therefore their icons cannot be idols = something which replaces God), if God forbids honouring them in this way, then how do you explain these Patriarchal blessings?

Isaac to Jacob: "May peoples serve you, and nations bow down to you; be master of your brothers, and may your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be those who curse you, and blessed be those who bless you." (Gen. 27:29)

Jacob to Judah: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons shall bow down to you." (Gen. 49:8 )

* "Worship" and "prostration/bowing down" are synonymous gestures in the original languages (proskynesis, hishtahava).
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« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2013, 01:09:41 AM »

They think if they tell themselves something enough times, it will become true.  They aren’t the ones who worry me.  The ones who worry me are those who accept only the parts they like and disregard the parts they don’t.  Cherry picking Christianity. 

I second the suggestion of Mere Christianity.

Give us examples of cherry picking, if you mean that they do certain sins(evils) then we agree, but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction), then there is hypocrisy as one would call things not sin, a sin, proving 1 Timothy 4 True.

The hypocrisy is saying sin is not sin.  Cherry picking.

Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.

For example All Leviticus Death sentenced laws are repeated in Deuteronomy, yet in Deuteronomy Homosexuality is nowhere to be found and Temple Prostitution is Sentenced to death, which proves just like the other evidence, that Homosexuality isn't condemned in The Old Testament, but Temple Prostitution is.

Premarital sex, word for Fornication meant Sexual Immorality or Whoredom in Context of Paul's letters, added with The Fact that God would have stated it as sin in Old Testament.

No cherry picking, just well cared studying, studying God's Word, not what man says.
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« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2013, 01:14:45 AM »

but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction)

Do you read the Scriptures with blindfolds on or something?

No, he just went the Thomas Jefferson route and threw out the parts he didn't like.


Notice the assumption and slander?

1, I am not Homosexual and do not have any friends, etc who are Homosexual, so what do I have to gain, I have no problem if it's a sin, I know it's not a sin, because it was never stated to be a sin and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

2, I actually would have an incline for waiting for marriage because it's sexy and loving, however Bible doesn't say it's a sin, anywhere, and I won't commit sin by calling what isn't sin a sin.

1 Corinthians 4:13  When slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.
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« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2013, 01:18:59 AM »

but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction)

Do you read the Scriptures with blindfolds on or something?

Nope I read The Bible with my eyes open, if I didn't I'd be committing life ruining sins, I used to believe homosexual, premarital sex, and even sexual attraction to be a sin, when this was made up by man, not God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

For Homosexuality, Every sin punishable by death is repeated in Deuteronomy, yet in Deut. it isn't there but Temple Prostitution is.

For Premarital Sex, see Acts420 he utterly destroyed the man made doctrine of premarital sex being sin

For Sexual Attraction, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) never condemned it, yet promoted it, Matt. 5:27-28 in Greek is about Adultery not "lusting", God created sex and sexual desires, and God promotes sexual desires(By Solomon),

Proverbs 5:

15 Drink water from your own cistern,
    running water from your own well.
16 Should your springs overflow in the streets,
    your streams of water in the public squares?
17 Let them be yours alone,
    never to be shared with strangers.
18 May your fountain be blessed,
    and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
    may her breasts satisfy you always,
    may you ever be intoxicated with her love.
20 Why, my son, be intoxicated with another man’s wife?
    Why embrace the bosom of a wayward woman?

What I notice is that everything that is sin harms another person(or themselves) unjustly.
You bought the propaganda hook, line and sinker, then asked for more. 

What propaganda, getting mad at hypocrite pharisees who burden others cause "atheism"(which I hate, a pharisee is basically an "atheist") to others, and rebellion when it is all false man made stuff added to God's Word?

Sorry but the only propaganda here is yours, I'm trying to bring people to Jesus Christ, people say God wants us or requires us to suffer in order to be His disciple when He said you should be WIILLNG and carry through(martyrdom) suffering if necessary, not that you have to suffer, as Jesus Christ said,

Matthew 11: 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
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« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2013, 01:21:00 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.
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« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2013, 02:14:24 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.
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« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2013, 02:21:30 AM »

I'm certain about what I believe.  My practice (praxis) may not be where I want it to be; however, my faith isn't based on preponderance of the evidence but absolute belief in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

But isn't that a rather meaningless statement?

I don't see it that way.  I was taught that Roman Catholicism and the Protestant religions fell away from the Orthodox.  While I've attended services at other Christian churches (including Assemblies of God), I knew that they were not part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  To me, professing belief in the Orthodox Church is not a meaningless statement.

I used to confess the same thing as a Lutheran.  So do Anglicans.  So to Roman Catholics for that matter.  And, each claim to be that Church.  I am certain, based on the preponderance of what I have read, that they are wrong.  But I was not born believing that, nor did I spend the first 33 years of my life believing that.

What convinced you that the Orthodox Church "filled the holes" you described earlier?   Huh
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« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2013, 03:04:18 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2013, 04:43:40 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Wasn't aware that someone can be born Castrated.
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« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2013, 04:48:01 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Look, if you want to play "rewrite and interpret scripture" all I ask is you play it with someone else.  I have been around long enough, heard enough, seen enough, studied enough, dissected enough and refuted enough of this type of argument in my life with enough people to last six lifetimes.  You simply are wrong and nothing you attempt to twist or say will ever, ever, ever change this fact.

The seven of eight definitions of toevah, all of which mean the same thing except the one you choose, within the context of what we are discussing, argument fails miserably, every time.  This is what I meant some time ago when I said “revisionist theology” when people change the original to fit what they want it to be today.  
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« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2013, 04:49:59 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Where is the Trinity mentioned in the whole of the Scriptures?
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« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2013, 04:54:20 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


In this context it means males born without testicles, a deformity.  Still, I wonder what it has to do with this discussion.  In this context its meaning is some people can still (or best) serve God as a single person, by devoting their life to celebacy.
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« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2013, 06:01:25 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Look, if you want to play "rewrite and interpret scripture" all I ask is you play it with someone else.  I have been around long enough, heard enough, seen enough, studied enough, dissected enough and refuted enough of this type of argument in my life with enough people to last six lifetimes.  You simply are wrong and nothing you attempt to twist or say will ever, ever, ever change this fact.

The seven of eight definitions of toevah, all of which mean the same thing except the one you choose, within the context of what we are discussing, argument fails miserably, every time.  This is what I meant some time ago when I said “revisionist theology” when people change the original to fit what they want it to be today.  


"Look, if you want to play "rewrite and interpret scripture" all I ask is you play it with someone else."

Yet I'm not doing that, I post clear Scripture.

" I have been around long enough, heard enough, seen enough, studied enough, dissected enough and refuted enough of this type of argument in my life with enough people to last six lifetimes."

Oh stop boasting.

"  You simply are wrong and nothing you attempt to twist or say will ever, ever, ever change this fact."

What fact? I provide Scripture, are you saying what you say without Scripture to back it up is a Fact over Scripture?

"The seven of eight definitions of toevah, all of which mean the same thing except the one you choose, within the context of what we are discussing, argument fails miserably, every time.  This is what I meant some time ago when I said “revisionist theology” when people change the original to fit what they want it to be today. "

That isn't the argument, The Fact is evidence shows Leviticus is Temple Prostitution, added with the fact that every sin punishable by death is repeated in Deuteronomy, Homosexuality is not in Deuteronomy, yet Temple Prostitution is, Homosexuality is not a sin, Temple Prostitution is.
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« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2013, 06:03:09 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Where is the Trinity mentioned in the whole of the Scriptures?

Genesis 1:26-27
John 1
Baptism of Jesus Christ
1 John 5:7
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« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2013, 06:09:22 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


In this context it means males born without testicles, a deformity.  Still, I wonder what it has to do with this discussion.  In this context its meaning is some people can still (or best) serve God as a single person, by devoting their life to celebacy.

Castration is getting the testicles/genital area removed, one cannot be born getting their testicles removed, you are either born with them or not.

Also enunches were known to be Homosexual, watch this,

"Bust of Ulpian,
AD 172-223

“The name of eunuch is a general one; under it come [1] those who are eunuchs by nature [born eunuchs], [2] those who are made eunuchs [by castration or crushing], and [3] any other kind of eunuchs [those who voluntarily abstain from marriage].”"

1 mentions being born that way

2 mentions castration

3 mentions celebacy/abstainence

Also celebacy is an option, not an obligation.

http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm
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« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2013, 06:19:39 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Look, if you want to play "rewrite and interpret scripture" all I ask is you play it with someone else.  I have been around long enough, heard enough, seen enough, studied enough, dissected enough and refuted enough of this type of argument in my life with enough people to last six lifetimes.  You simply are wrong and nothing you attempt to twist or say will ever, ever, ever change this fact.

The seven of eight definitions of toevah, all of which mean the same thing except the one you choose, within the context of what we are discussing, argument fails miserably, every time.  This is what I meant some time ago when I said “revisionist theology” when people change the original to fit what they want it to be today.  


"Look, if you want to play "rewrite and interpret scripture" all I ask is you play it with someone else."

Yet I'm not doing that, I post clear Scripture.

" I have been around long enough, heard enough, seen enough, studied enough, dissected enough and refuted enough of this type of argument in my life with enough people to last six lifetimes."

Oh stop boasting.

"  You simply are wrong and nothing you attempt to twist or say will ever, ever, ever change this fact."

What fact? I provide Scripture, are you saying what you say without Scripture to back it up is a Fact over Scripture?

"The seven of eight definitions of toevah, all of which mean the same thing except the one you choose, within the context of what we are discussing, argument fails miserably, every time.  This is what I meant some time ago when I said “revisionist theology” when people change the original to fit what they want it to be today. "

That isn't the argument, The Fact is evidence shows Leviticus is Temple Prostitution, added with the fact that every sin punishable by death is repeated in Deuteronomy, Homosexuality is not in Deuteronomy, yet Temple Prostitution is, Homosexuality is not a sin, Temple Prostitution is.

Friend, I have said it in the clearest way I know how.  You are wrong.

Temple Prostitution, huh? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2013, 06:21:09 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Where is the Trinity mentioned in the whole of the Scriptures?

Genesis 1:26-27
John 1
Baptism of Jesus Christ
1 John 5:7

The word Trinity does not appear in the verses.  Is this another "cherry picking" moment on your part?  Believe what you WANT to believe rather than what is clearly true?
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« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2013, 06:23:37 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


In this context it means males born without testicles, a deformity.  Still, I wonder what it has to do with this discussion.  In this context its meaning is some people can still (or best) serve God as a single person, by devoting their life to celebacy.

Castration is getting the testicles/genital area removed, one cannot be born getting their testicles removed, you are either born with them or not.

Also enunches were known to be Homosexual, watch this,

"Bust of Ulpian,
AD 172-223

“The name of eunuch is a general one; under it come [1] those who are eunuchs by nature [born eunuchs], [2] those who are made eunuchs [by castration or crushing], and [3] any other kind of eunuchs [those who voluntarily abstain from marriage].”"

1 mentions being born that way

2 mentions castration

3 mentions celebacy/abstainence

Also celebacy is an option, not an obligation.

http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm

I am not entirely certain what your point here is.
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« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2013, 07:00:24 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


In this context it means males born without testicles, a deformity.  Still, I wonder what it has to do with this discussion.  In this context its meaning is some people can still (or best) serve God as a single person, by devoting their life to celebacy.

Castration is getting the testicles/genital area removed, one cannot be born getting their testicles removed, you are either born with them or not.

Also enunches were known to be Homosexual, watch this,

"Bust of Ulpian,
AD 172-223

“The name of eunuch is a general one; under it come [1] those who are eunuchs by nature [born eunuchs], [2] those who are made eunuchs [by castration or crushing], and [3] any other kind of eunuchs [those who voluntarily abstain from marriage].”"

1 mentions being born that way

2 mentions castration

3 mentions celebacy/abstainence

Also celebacy is an option, not an obligation.

http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm

Were you here under another name before? Because there were a couple of posters who had the exact same arguments as you, including some of the same phrases. Before you get all proud of yourself, three people aren't much of a crowd.
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« Reply #65 on: March 01, 2013, 07:14:13 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Where is the Trinity mentioned in the whole of the Scriptures?

Genesis 1:26-27
John 1
Baptism of Jesus Christ
1 John 5:7

The word Trinity does not appear in the verses.  Is this another "cherry picking" moment on your part?  Believe what you WANT to believe rather than what is clearly true?

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

God says let us and in our image, we know God create man in His own image, God said "Let us make mankind", so already we know God is more than one person, yet One God, One Being, on that verse alone.

John 1:1 In The Beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God

So The Word is with God, yet is God, again, God is multiple person, now who is The Word?

2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So He created everything

Next,

14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So The Son is The Word and The Word is God, Jesus Christ is The Son, therefore Jesus Christ is God, as well as The Father, so now we know that The Father, and Jesus Christ is God.

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Bam.

Matthew 3: 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

So The Spirit of God(God) descends on Christ and another voice says " “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” who is obviously The Father,

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?
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« Reply #66 on: March 01, 2013, 07:16:22 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


In this context it means males born without testicles, a deformity.  Still, I wonder what it has to do with this discussion.  In this context its meaning is some people can still (or best) serve God as a single person, by devoting their life to celebacy.

Castration is getting the testicles/genital area removed, one cannot be born getting their testicles removed, you are either born with them or not.

Also enunches were known to be Homosexual, watch this,

"Bust of Ulpian,
AD 172-223

“The name of eunuch is a general one; under it come [1] those who are eunuchs by nature [born eunuchs], [2] those who are made eunuchs [by castration or crushing], and [3] any other kind of eunuchs [those who voluntarily abstain from marriage].”"

1 mentions being born that way

2 mentions castration

3 mentions celebacy/abstainence

Also celebacy is an option, not an obligation.

http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm

Were you here under another name before? Because there were a couple of posters who had the exact same arguments as you, including some of the same phrases. Before you get all proud of yourself, three people aren't much of a crowd.

Nope I'm SavedByChrist94, currenting appealing a ban on ChristianForums so that I may debate, once that goes through I won't be on this website as much and it's contrary to The Gospel doctrines
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« Reply #67 on: March 01, 2013, 07:39:47 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Where is the Trinity mentioned in the whole of the Scriptures?

Genesis 1:26-27
John 1
Baptism of Jesus Christ
1 John 5:7

The word Trinity does not appear in the verses.  Is this another "cherry picking" moment on your part?  Believe what you WANT to believe rather than what is clearly true?

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

God says let us and in our image, we know God create man in His own image, God said "Let us make mankind", so already we know God is more than one person, yet One God, One Being, on that verse alone.

John 1:1 In The Beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God

So The Word is with God, yet is God, again, God is multiple person, now who is The Word?

2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So He created everything

Next,

14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So The Son is The Word and The Word is God, Jesus Christ is The Son, therefore Jesus Christ is God, as well as The Father, so now we know that The Father, and Jesus Christ is God.

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Bam.

Matthew 3: 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

So The Spirit of God(God) descends on Christ and another voice says " “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” who is obviously The Father,

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?

Without the word Trinity in the Scriptures, you accept there is the Trinity, yet, without the word homosexual acts in association with sin, you deny it is sin.

Like I said, cherry picking.
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« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2013, 07:41:20 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


In this context it means males born without testicles, a deformity.  Still, I wonder what it has to do with this discussion.  In this context its meaning is some people can still (or best) serve God as a single person, by devoting their life to celebacy.

Castration is getting the testicles/genital area removed, one cannot be born getting their testicles removed, you are either born with them or not.

Also enunches were known to be Homosexual, watch this,

"Bust of Ulpian,
AD 172-223

“The name of eunuch is a general one; under it come [1] those who are eunuchs by nature [born eunuchs], [2] those who are made eunuchs [by castration or crushing], and [3] any other kind of eunuchs [those who voluntarily abstain from marriage].”"

1 mentions being born that way

2 mentions castration

3 mentions celebacy/abstainence

Also celebacy is an option, not an obligation.

http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm

Were you here under another name before? Because there were a couple of posters who had the exact same arguments as you, including some of the same phrases. Before you get all proud of yourself, three people aren't much of a crowd.

The arguments sound the same because they are obtained from the same websites.  False prophets and teachers, that sort of thing.
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« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2013, 07:53:47 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Where is the Trinity mentioned in the whole of the Scriptures?

Genesis 1:26-27
John 1
Baptism of Jesus Christ
1 John 5:7

The word Trinity does not appear in the verses.  Is this another "cherry picking" moment on your part?  Believe what you WANT to believe rather than what is clearly true?

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

God says let us and in our image, we know God create man in His own image, God said "Let us make mankind", so already we know God is more than one person, yet One God, One Being, on that verse alone.

John 1:1 In The Beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God

So The Word is with God, yet is God, again, God is multiple person, now who is The Word?

2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So He created everything

Next,

14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So The Son is The Word and The Word is God, Jesus Christ is The Son, therefore Jesus Christ is God, as well as The Father, so now we know that The Father, and Jesus Christ is God.

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Bam.

Matthew 3: 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

So The Spirit of God(God) descends on Christ and another voice says " “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” who is obviously The Father,

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?

Without the word Trinity in the Scriptures, you accept there is the Trinity, yet, without the word homosexual acts in association with sin, you deny it is sin.

Like I said, cherry picking.

If we are to assume that Homosexuality is a sin without any reference to it in The Bible, we can say that someone who looks less than beautiful commits sin or someone with dwarfism commits sin. throw your phariseeism away because it's  equivalent to satanism and "atheism"
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« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2013, 07:56:49 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Where is the Trinity mentioned in the whole of the Scriptures?

Genesis 1:26-27
John 1
Baptism of Jesus Christ
1 John 5:7

The word Trinity does not appear in the verses.  Is this another "cherry picking" moment on your part?  Believe what you WANT to believe rather than what is clearly true?

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

God says let us and in our image, we know God create man in His own image, God said "Let us make mankind", so already we know God is more than one person, yet One God, One Being, on that verse alone.

John 1:1 In The Beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God

So The Word is with God, yet is God, again, God is multiple person, now who is The Word?

2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So He created everything

Next,

14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So The Son is The Word and The Word is God, Jesus Christ is The Son, therefore Jesus Christ is God, as well as The Father, so now we know that The Father, and Jesus Christ is God.

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Bam.

Matthew 3: 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

So The Spirit of God(God) descends on Christ and another voice says " “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” who is obviously The Father,

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?

Without the word Trinity in the Scriptures, you accept there is the Trinity, yet, without the word homosexual acts in association with sin, you deny it is sin.

Like I said, cherry picking.

If we are to assume that Homosexuality is a sin without any reference to it in The Bible, we can say that someone who looks less than beautiful commits sin or someone with dwarfism commits sin. throw your phariseeism away because it's  equivalent to satanism and "atheism"
And still you accept the Trinity.

BTW - There are several references to homosexuality throughout scripture.  Ignoring them won't change this.
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« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2013, 09:33:04 AM »

Homosexuals everywhere...
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« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2013, 09:38:20 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Wasn't aware that someone can be born Castrated.

Cryptorchidism (undescended testicles) would have been a well-known phenomenon to ancient peoples.  police
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2013, 09:38:20 AM »


If we are to assume that Homosexuality is a sin without any reference to it in The Bible, we can say that someone who looks less than beautiful commits sin or someone with dwarfism commits sin. throw your phariseeism away because it's  equivalent to satanism and "atheism"

SavedByChrist94, you must have missed Romans ch.1:

Quote
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

What say you, SavedByChrist94? Still want to claim homosexuality isn't a sin? Or isn't Romans part of your Bible?
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« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2013, 10:34:00 AM »


If we are to assume that Homosexuality is a sin without any reference to it in The Bible, we can say that someone who looks less than beautiful commits sin or someone with dwarfism commits sin. throw your phariseeism away because it's  equivalent to satanism and "atheism"

SavedByChrist94, you must have missed Romans ch.1:

Quote
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

What say you, SavedByChrist94? Still want to claim homosexuality isn't a sin? Or isn't Romans part of your Bible?
There are several other verses people like him either disregard or devote months, even years, attempting to find a way to twist them to mean something else other than their original intent.  The despicable part is they think people are uneducated enough to actually fall for their scheme.  The truly sad part is many people do.  What they never count on is some people do not.
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« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2013, 10:35:54 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Wasn't aware that someone can be born Castrated.

Cryptorchidism (undescended testicles) would have been a well-known phenomenon to ancient peoples.  police
I imagine in the near future someone will say eunuch was ancient way of saying homosexual and they were “born that way” by using this verse.
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« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2013, 10:42:03 AM »

So, a possible conclusion based on the recent discussion could be:

People reject the Holy Scriptures/Christianity/The Church/”Whatever” as the result of its recent deluded messages being spread, no potency of truth, white washed version of its former self, lukewarm mediocrity, announcing there is no difference between them and how those people are already living their lives, so why bother.  

Just a shot in the dark, but I have been known to hit the target on occasion.
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« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2013, 11:18:02 AM »

So, a possible conclusion based on the recent discussion could be:

People reject the Holy Scriptures/Christianity/The Church/”Whatever” as the result of its recent deluded messages being spread, no potency of truth, white washed version of its former self, lukewarm mediocrity, announcing there is no difference between them and how those people are already living their lives, so why bother. 

Just a shot in the dark, but I have been known to hit the target on occasion.


This

but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction)

Do you read the Scriptures with blindfolds on or something?

No, he just went the Thomas Jefferson route and threw out the parts he didn't like.


Notice the assumption and slander?


And where would the assumption and slander be? All I have done is state an observation that you, like Thomas Jefferson, have discarded the parts of the Bible that you disagree with. Plenty of others have shown you what the Bible clearly says, and some have even tried to fix your errors regarding certain words.

You refuse to listen because you have your own version of the Bible that you are working with; it is either a physical or a mental version, but it is your version nonetheless.

Also, I never said that you are a homosexual or that you are currently engaging in fornication. So about that word assumption... You keep using that word but I do not think it means what you think it means.
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« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2013, 11:47:06 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Where is the Trinity mentioned in the whole of the Scriptures?

Genesis 1:26-27
John 1
Baptism of Jesus Christ
1 John 5:7

The word Trinity does not appear in the verses.  Is this another "cherry picking" moment on your part?  Believe what you WANT to believe rather than what is clearly true?

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

God says let us and in our image, we know God create man in His own image, God said "Let us make mankind", so already we know God is more than one person, yet One God, One Being, on that verse alone.

John 1:1 In The Beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God

So The Word is with God, yet is God, again, God is multiple person, now who is The Word?

2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So He created everything

Next,

14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So The Son is The Word and The Word is God, Jesus Christ is The Son, therefore Jesus Christ is God, as well as The Father, so now we know that The Father, and Jesus Christ is God.

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Bam.

Matthew 3: 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

So The Spirit of God(God) descends on Christ and another voice says " “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” who is obviously The Father,

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?

Without the word Trinity in the Scriptures, you accept there is the Trinity, yet, without the word homosexual acts in association with sin, you deny it is sin.

Like I said, cherry picking.

If we are to assume that Homosexuality is a sin without any reference to it in The Bible, we can say that someone who looks less than beautiful commits sin or someone with dwarfism commits sin. throw your phariseeism away because it's  equivalent to satanism and "atheism"
And still you accept the Trinity.

BTW - There are several references to homosexuality throughout scripture.  Ignoring them won't change this.

Already then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? every death sentence Law from Leviticus, is repeated in Deuteronomy, yet in Deuteronomy it's missing, and instead Temple Prostitution is mentioned and condemned to Death, add that to the fact that Leviticus can mean and most likely is Temple Prostitution.

your Hell bound bigotry cannot change The Word of God,

Revelation 22:18 - I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
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« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2013, 11:49:33 AM »



Nope, like it or not, Homosexuality and Premarital sex aren't sin.
Like it or not, they most certainly are.

Ok then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy? All crimes punishable by death in Leviticus Law are repeated in Deuteronomy.

Where is the Trinity mentioned in the whole of the Scriptures?

Genesis 1:26-27
John 1
Baptism of Jesus Christ
1 John 5:7

The word Trinity does not appear in the verses.  Is this another "cherry picking" moment on your part?  Believe what you WANT to believe rather than what is clearly true?

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

God says let us and in our image, we know God create man in His own image, God said "Let us make mankind", so already we know God is more than one person, yet One God, One Being, on that verse alone.

John 1:1 In The Beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God

So The Word is with God, yet is God, again, God is multiple person, now who is The Word?

2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So He created everything

Next,

14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So The Son is The Word and The Word is God, Jesus Christ is The Son, therefore Jesus Christ is God, as well as The Father, so now we know that The Father, and Jesus Christ is God.

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Bam.

Matthew 3: 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

So The Spirit of God(God) descends on Christ and another voice says " “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” who is obviously The Father,

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?

Without the word Trinity in the Scriptures, you accept there is the Trinity, yet, without the word homosexual acts in association with sin, you deny it is sin.

Like I said, cherry picking.

If we are to assume that Homosexuality is a sin without any reference to it in The Bible, we can say that someone who looks less than beautiful commits sin or someone with dwarfism commits sin. throw your phariseeism away because it's  equivalent to satanism and "atheism"
And still you accept the Trinity.

BTW - There are several references to homosexuality throughout scripture.  Ignoring them won't change this.

Because it is a Proven Fact that you failed to refute, John 1:1(I'd argue John's whole Gospel), Genesis 1:26-27, The Great Commission, 1 John 5:7, Acts, Hebrews 1 clearly says Jesus Christ is God, even The Father calls Him God,) unlike where Homosexuality has absolutely no mention.
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« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2013, 11:58:47 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Wasn't aware that someone can be born Castrated.

Cryptorchidism (undescended testicles) would have been a well-known phenomenon to ancient peoples.  police

That is a defect caused by the fall, not Castration, try again. no one can be born castrated. add that to The Fact that eunuches could be homosexual and Jesus Christ wasn't specifying a defect evident by Him saying in Matthew 19:12,

" For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

The reference to marriage means it has to do with women, since that's the case, some were born to not be with a woman(we'll get to this next), some were made this way by other men(castration) and some are celibate. it has nothing to do with genitals but with women.

Now, to the 1st of being born that way, cannot be castration as one cannot be born castrated, that is removing the genitals, the other definition is celibacy, obviously you cannot be celibate at birth, however there is another meaning and that is homosexual, that is the only one which in context can be used.
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« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2013, 12:03:32 PM »


If we are to assume that Homosexuality is a sin without any reference to it in The Bible, we can say that someone who looks less than beautiful commits sin or someone with dwarfism commits sin. throw your phariseeism away because it's  equivalent to satanism and "atheism"

SavedByChrist94, you must have missed Romans ch.1:

Quote
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

What say you, SavedByChrist94? Still want to claim homosexuality isn't a sin? Or isn't Romans part of your Bible?

It's Our Bible or The Bible, or God's Word, saying your is "atheistic" talk.

Now, 1 even if Romans said homosexuality is shameful, still doesn't prove it to be sin, why? because 1 Cor 11:14 - Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him,

"by nature" means by culture, also having long hair isn't a sin, Jesus Christ(God) as a human being had long hair, so just on that you get refuted,





But, 2, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMruQcH504
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« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2013, 12:03:48 PM »

So you think you're a better exegete than Origen?  police
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« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2013, 12:06:57 PM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Wasn't aware that someone can be born Castrated.

Cryptorchidism (undescended testicles) would have been a well-known phenomenon to ancient peoples.  police

That is a defect caused by the fall, not Castration, try again. no one can be born castrated. add that to The Fact that eunuches could be homosexual and Jesus Christ wasn't specifying a defect evident by Him saying in Matthew 19:12,

" For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

The reference to marriage means it has to do with women, since that's the case, some were born to not be with a woman(we'll get to this next), some were made this way by other men(castration) and some are celibate. it has nothing to do with genitals but with women.

Now, to the 1st of being born that way, cannot be castration as one cannot be born castrated, that is removing the genitals, the other definition is celibacy, obviously you cannot be celibate at birth, however there is another meaning and that is homosexual, that is the only one which in context can be used.

Eunuch there means asexual (or refraining from sexual acts) - not homosexual. There's no way he was saying "some have become homosexual for the kingdom of heaven".
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« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2013, 12:09:19 PM »


If we are to assume that Homosexuality is a sin without any reference to it in The Bible, we can say that someone who looks less than beautiful commits sin or someone with dwarfism commits sin. throw your phariseeism away because it's  equivalent to satanism and "atheism"

SavedByChrist94, you must have missed Romans ch.1:

Quote
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

What say you, SavedByChrist94? Still want to claim homosexuality isn't a sin? Or isn't Romans part of your Bible?
There are several other verses people like him either disregard or devote months, even years, attempting to find a way to twist them to mean something else other than their original intent.  The despicable part is they think people are uneducated enough to actually fall for their scheme.  The truly sad part is many people do.  What they never count on is some people do not.

1, I have nothing to gain, I am not homosexual and I don't have homosexual friends. I condemned Homosexuality up until just, January, after careful study and guidence from The Holy Spirit

2, Homosexuality is not a sin, The Bible says it, that settles it, pharisees and "atheist" who twist The Gospel like yourself can step aside.

3, " The despicable part is they think people are uneducated enough to actually fall for their scheme.  The truly sad part is many people do.  What they never count on is some people do not."

What scheme? Truth that Homosexuality isn't a sin is a scheme to you? Truth is no scheme, as Jesus Christ said, "The Truth Shall Set You Free", if anything you twisting The Gospel for satan made doctrines Warned about in 1 Timothy 4, is what a scheme is.
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« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2013, 12:12:18 PM »

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3)"
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« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2013, 12:13:13 PM »

SBC, were you here under another name at one time? It's just you remind me of a few people.  Huh
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« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2013, 12:13:29 PM »

So, a possible conclusion based on the recent discussion could be:

People reject the Holy Scriptures/Christianity/The Church/”Whatever” as the result of its recent deluded messages being spread, no potency of truth, white washed version of its former self, lukewarm mediocrity, announcing there is no difference between them and how those people are already living their lives, so why bother. 

Just a shot in the dark, but I have been known to hit the target on occasion.


This

but with things that aren't sin(homosexuality, premarital sex, sexual attraction)

Do you read the Scriptures with blindfolds on or something?

No, he just went the Thomas Jefferson route and threw out the parts he didn't like.


Notice the assumption and slander?


And where would the assumption and slander be? All I have done is state an observation that you, like Thomas Jefferson, have discarded the parts of the Bible that you disagree with. Plenty of others have shown you what the Bible clearly says, and some have even tried to fix your errors regarding certain words.

You refuse to listen because you have your own version of the Bible that you are working with; it is either a physical or a mental version, but it is your version nonetheless.

Also, I never said that you are a homosexual or that you are currently engaging in fornication. So about that word assumption... You keep using that word but I do not think it means what you think it means.

up until January, I was very bigoted towards homosexuals, and my OCD raised up after I found out that it isn't a sin, I don't pick parts I don't agree with, after study and Guidence by The Holy Spirit, just like The Holy Spirit gave me the answer to The Problem of Suffering, rendering it an dead argument, I found out that Homosexuality isn't a sin, I had alot of repenting to do, and found out after that, that it really isn't a sin and I was surpressing that Truth due to a prejudice of which The Lord Jesus Christ has delievered me from and hopefully you as well.
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« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2013, 12:17:43 PM »

Time to shake the dust off my sandals.
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« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2013, 12:22:58 PM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Wasn't aware that someone can be born Castrated.

Cryptorchidism (undescended testicles) would have been a well-known phenomenon to ancient peoples.  police

That is a defect caused by the fall, not Castration, try again. no one can be born castrated. add that to The Fact that eunuches could be homosexual and Jesus Christ wasn't specifying a defect evident by Him saying in Matthew 19:12,

" For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

The reference to marriage means it has to do with women, since that's the case, some were born to not be with a woman(we'll get to this next), some were made this way by other men(castration) and some are celibate. it has nothing to do with genitals but with women.

Now, to the 1st of being born that way, cannot be castration as one cannot be born castrated, that is removing the genitals, the other definition is celibacy, obviously you cannot be celibate at birth, however there is another meaning and that is homosexual, that is the only one which in context can be used.

Eunuch there means asexual (or refraining from sexual acts) - not homosexual. There's no way he was saying "some have become homosexual for the kingdom of heaven".

Who said that? Also eunuch even if one of it's definitions is asexual doesn't change the fact that it means abstaining from sex and castration ,both mentioned in that passage,

Castration(has nothing to do with asexuality) - " others were made that way by men;"

Celibacy - "others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven."

Passage obviously deals with women evident by:

"others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven."

So this has to do with marriage, ok so one can be unable to marry or have sex with a woman because they are 1, Castrated "" others were made that way by men;""

or

Due to celibacy - "others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven."

now your left with Asexuality and Homosexuality,

Now due to the fact that Jesus Christ(God) said, "others were made that way by men;" and you cannot be made asexual, it is therefore by that logi and the fact that eunuches can be homosexual, http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm Jesus Christ said some are born gay.
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« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2013, 12:28:30 PM »

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3)"

I agree that, that is what you do, I'd also like to add,

 1 Timothy 4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

and

Colossians 2:21-23 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

1st This guy falsely accuses me(1 Peter 2:1-12) of  having itch ears and is a hypocrite as the verse he posted apply to him.

1 Peter 3:16 - Having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.
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« Reply #91 on: March 01, 2013, 12:32:40 PM »

I suggest everyone of you repent of your indoctrination or bigotry for a false doctrine(Homosexuality being a sin)

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

I ask you guys to test my spirit, if I am right you will be incapable of refuting me, if I am wrong you will know.

No one has refuted me, I am presenting True Doctrine by The Leadership of The Holy Spirit(God)
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« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2013, 12:34:08 PM »

"Eunuchs made by men" (castrated) can be asexual, heterosexual or homosexual.

"Eunuchs born that way" can only be asexual.

"Eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven" can be asexual, heterosexual or homosexual, but they abstain from all sex.

The text does not mention women, obviously.
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« Reply #93 on: March 01, 2013, 12:47:09 PM »

I ask you guys to test my spirit, if I am right you will be incapable of refuting me, if I am wrong you will know.

No one has refuted me, I am presenting True Doctrine by The Leadership of The Holy Spirit(God)

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« Reply #94 on: March 01, 2013, 12:56:14 PM »

I suggest everyone of you repent of your indoctrination or bigotry for a false doctrine(Homosexuality being a sin)

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

I ask you guys to test my spirit, if I am right you will be incapable of refuting me, if I am wrong you will know.

No one has refuted me, I am presenting True Doctrine by The Leadership of The Holy Spirit(God)
I have never heard "irrefutability" cited as a way to know whether a spirit is from God. Roll Eyes We've already tested your spirit and found it totally devoid of the humility one would expect of a true Christian teacher.
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« Reply #95 on: March 01, 2013, 01:03:14 PM »

Somebody get this guy a collection of the sayings of the desert fathers, quick!
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« Reply #96 on: March 01, 2013, 01:10:53 PM »

Up until January, I was very bigoted towards homosexuals, and my OCD raised up after I found out that it isn't a sin.

I'm sorry - I just noticed this now. Forgive us!

Given the situation, perhaps it's wiser not to ascribe your convictions to the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #97 on: March 01, 2013, 04:44:12 PM »

Doing your own will is the fundamental of satanism.

Aren't you the one who has invented your own confession by yourself?

No.  I follow the commands of God.   See it's men's will that messes up God's will.

For example your church doesn't understand this:  Exodus 20:4 (Words of God Bolded)

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, or serve them.




"My confession" is just trying to do the will of God, which is exactly the opposite of how it seems to me, that you are trying to portray me.

The irony I see in this this is that EO have allowed the will of men (bishops), the tradition of men (bishops), and the vote of men's will (which they call God's will) to trick them into directly disobeying the commandment of God.  The EO can only become frustratingly angered, because to admit that they do not follow the commands of God, would be admitting they could no longer be EO.   (That is if their love for the church itself exceeded that of the love for God).

The reason I can't be EO, is because I love God and wish to follow God's will.   When the will of men can convince you to do the DIRECT OPPOSITE of that which God has commanded you NOT to do, then who's will is it? 

So attacks do come at me, but it is from frustrated people because they don't know what else to say.  IMHO, this stuff is not arguable.  Look at the photo, they are disobeying God's commandment in Exodus 20:4 - plain and simple.

So I ask you two questions -

1) If I obey the commands of God - Whose will am I following?

2) If I bow to images of the likeness of things in heaven & disobeying the command of God - Who's will am I following?

I'm sorry if this seems attacking, but please just try to see it at face value.   Read the command, look at the photo (I know you don't have to because it happens all the time in EO).

My own confession is to do the will of God, not follow the disobedience that has been passed down post 300 A.D.   
Yesh, if you want to be a Jew, then go all out and become a Jew. Stop hiding behind the name "Christian".

Christians was what the originals decided the name of the followers of the risen messiah would be called.  I believe in the Messiah and that he is the son of God, and that he is God.  I would never hide behind something.
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« Reply #98 on: March 01, 2013, 04:44:12 PM »

Read the command, look at the photo (I know you don't have to because it happens all the time in EO).

My own confession is to do the will of God, not follow the disobedience that has been passed down post 300 A.D.   

"Let us go into His dwelling place; Let us worship at His footstool." (Ps. 131:7)

"Come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker." (Ps. 94:6) - Most Orthodox services begin with this admonition repeated thrice. Latin Matins also begin with this Psalm and the rubrics prescribe kneeling when this verse is spoken.

I wish there was a photo of Temple worship so I could post it here. But you've read Hebrews - you know what was in there:

"The Holy of Holies,having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat." (Hebrews 9:3-5)

As for bowing down before Saints (who are not rival gods of the sky, earth or underworld, therefore their icons cannot be idols = something which replaces God), if God forbids honouring them in this way, then how do you explain these Patriarchal blessings?

Isaac to Jacob: "May peoples serve you, and nations bow down to you; be master of your brothers, and may your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be those who curse you, and blessed be those who bless you." (Gen. 27:29)

Jacob to Judah: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons shall bow down to you." (Gen. 49:8 )

* "Worship" and "prostration/bowing down" are synonymous gestures in the original languages (proskynesis, hishtahava).
Yes, I agree with you.

But they are not bowing before God.  They are bowing IN THE DIRECTION of an image created in the likeness of "anything" in heaven.
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« Reply #99 on: March 01, 2013, 04:44:12 PM »

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3)"

I agree that, that is what you do, I'd also like to add,

 1 Timothy 4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

and

Colossians 2:21-23 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

1st This guy falsely accuses me(1 Peter 2:1-12) of  having itch ears and is a hypocrite as the verse he posted apply to him.

1 Peter 3:16 - Having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

Remember in this passage that "food" was that which Jews considered to be food.

Peter's dream - you have to read on after the dream, it was symbolic.   
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« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2013, 01:15:56 AM »


Already then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy?

I haven’t looked.  I suppose I could, but it really makes no difference because it is clearly addressed in several other books throughout the Old and New Testaments. 

every death sentence Law from Leviticus, is repeated in Deuteronomy, yet in Deuteronomy it's missing,
And…

and instead Temple Prostitution is mentioned and condemned to Death,
So…

add that to the fact that Leviticus can mean and most likely is Temple Prostitution.
 

No other possibilities?


your Hell bound bigotry cannot change The Word of God,
 

Truth is bigotry?  That’s interesting.  I never knew God was a bigot.

Revelation 22:18 - I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

Ponder on this verse for a while…a long while.
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« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2013, 01:19:51 AM »

Because it is a Proven Fact that you failed to refute, John 1:1(I'd argue John's whole Gospel), Genesis 1:26-27, The Great Commission, 1 John 5:7, Acts, Hebrews 1 clearly says Jesus Christ is God, even The Father calls Him God,)

I am not trying to refute the Trinity.  I am simply showing you your own hypocrisy and cherry picking abilities.

unlike where Homosexuality has absolutely no mention.

So which books of the bible do you actually accept?  I know of at least five you dismiss right now simply based off of your inadequate understanding of God's condemnation of homosexuality.
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« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2013, 01:21:10 AM »

Quote
and Jesus Christ said to accept eunuchs  as they are.

Are you not aware that a eunuch is a castrated male, and not a homosexual?  Roll Eyes


Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Wasn't aware that someone can be born Castrated.

Cryptorchidism (undescended testicles) would have been a well-known phenomenon to ancient peoples.  police

That is a defect caused by the fall, not Castration, try again. no one can be born castrated. add that to The Fact that eunuches could be homosexual and Jesus Christ wasn't specifying a defect evident by Him saying in Matthew 19:12,

" For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

The reference to marriage means it has to do with women, since that's the case, some were born to not be with a woman(we'll get to this next), some were made this way by other men(castration) and some are celibate. it has nothing to do with genitals but with women.

Now, to the 1st of being born that way, cannot be castration as one cannot be born castrated, that is removing the genitals, the other definition is celibacy, obviously you cannot be celibate at birth, however there is another meaning and that is homosexual, that is the only one which in context can be used.
Are you purposely being obtuse?  If so, to what end?  You are making arguments against things not said.
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« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2013, 01:23:02 AM »

Time to shake the dust off my sandals.

It is getting about that time.
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« Reply #104 on: March 02, 2013, 01:57:10 AM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #105 on: March 02, 2013, 02:07:52 AM »

I imagine in the near future someone will say eunuch was ancient way of saying homosexual and they were “born that way” by using this verse.

Now, to the 1st of being born that way, cannot be castration as one cannot be born castrated, that is removing the genitals, the other definition is celibacy, obviously you cannot be celibate at birth, however there is another meaning and that is homosexual, that is the only one which in context can be used.

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« Reply #106 on: March 02, 2013, 02:14:31 AM »

But they are not bowing before God.  They are bowing IN THE DIRECTION of an image created in the likeness of "anything" in heaven.

What were the Temple worshipers bowing before? There were images of Cherubim - those could pass for "any thing in heaven", according to your interpretation, couldn't they? If it's any consolation, there's no literal equivalent for "any thing" in that verse in Hebrew:


Lo           ta'aseh         le•kha     fesel      ve•khol-temuna        asher            ba•shamayim               mim•ma'al
not   you shall make   for • you   an idol   and • all/any • form     that         [is] in • the • heavens       from • above

va•'asher             ba•'aretz                mit•tachat
and • that      [is] in • the • earth      from • below   

va•'asher          bam•mayim                 mit•tachat           la•'aretz
and that     [is] in • the • waters      from • under    (of) • the • earth


Muslims bow towards Mecca, Christians bow towards the East. The Jews in Babylon used to pray facing Jerusalem (Daniel). God is everywhere, but especially in his sanctuary. His altar, the Cross - that is his "footstool" and we bow in that direction. That is not idolatry or bowing towards just "any thing in heaven" (the sun, the moon, the stars or some bird).

Saints are not "in heaven" (i.e. 'in the sky'), but they are with God. When we bow to them, we bow to him also: "Glory to Him that hath glorified thee. Glory to Him that hath crowned thee. Glory to Him that worketh healings for all through thee". 

 

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« Reply #107 on: March 02, 2013, 02:27:57 AM »

Without being too explicit, I think it is pretty obvious that homosexuality--at the very least--isn't natural from God in that homosexual sex does not produce children. As Orthodox Christians--correct me if I'm wrong--we see the purpose of sexuality as being to produce children so that we could raise them up via the family unit--which is an Icon of the relationship Christ has with His Church. Any other sexual practice which does not produce this is a human perversion for pleasure and somewhat selfish (although not much more selfish than anything else we do on a daily basis) in that there is nothing godly about it. I think this is why homosexual sex and even masturbation might be more spiritually harmful and unnatural than normal fornication--because neither will produce a family and are selfish, whereas fornication is at least somewhat natural and can lead to a family.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #108 on: March 02, 2013, 02:38:50 AM »

..., whereas fornication is at least somewhat natural and can lead to a family.

That would be a reason for rejecting the bible / religion / whatever.  I can think of my child, conceived in fornication by his parents, that has not set foot in an Orthodox Church since 2008.
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« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2013, 02:41:51 AM »

   
'Crossroads' unearthed at Boston College


Quote
...Visitors can stand before reconstructions of sacred spaces from the city where early Christians baptized their children, Jews gathered and adherents of mystery cults participated in forgotten rituals.

They can gaze upon some of the earliest painted images of Christ performing miracles, a statue of Hercules battling a lion, a Roman's red wooden shield or an invader's flattened iron helmet.

The exhibit includes the earliest known example of a baptistry, or baptismal pool, along with 14 painted plaster scenes of Christian narratives such as Christ healing a paralytic or walking on water.

The exhibit includes four copies of wall paintings from the synagogue, one containing symbols of uncertain meaning....

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/news/x410098639/Crossroads-unearthed-at-Boston-College



For views of the synagogue:  http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/artmuseum/exhibitions/archive/dura/synagogue.html

edit to fix text size
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« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2013, 02:48:22 AM »

Without being too explicit, I think it is pretty obvious that homosexuality--at the very least--isn't natural from God in that homosexual sex does not produce children. As Orthodox Christians--correct me if I'm wrong--we see the purpose of sexuality as being to produce children so that we could raise them up via the family unit--which is an Icon of the relationship Christ has with His Church. Any other sexual practice which does not produce this is a human perversion for pleasure and somewhat selfish (although not much more selfish than anything else we do on a daily basis) in that there is nothing godly about it. I think this is why homosexual sex and even masturbation might be more spiritually harmful and unnatural than normal fornication--because neither will produce a family and are selfish, whereas fornication is at least somewhat natural and can lead to a family.

I've read that the idea that marriage is only for procreation is an idea particular to western Roman Catholicism.  Various Orthodox say marriage is a way to work out one's salvation, not only for having children.  Fornication does not bring one closer to God.
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« Reply #111 on: March 03, 2013, 01:48:56 PM »

Up until January, I was very bigoted towards homosexuals, and my OCD raised up after I found out that it isn't a sin.

I'm sorry - I just noticed this now. Forgive us!

Given the situation, perhaps it's wiser not to ascribe your convictions to the Holy Spirit.


Nope,, The Holy Spirit convicted me because I was in the wrong and the study proved it, then I was changed and repented.
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« Reply #112 on: March 03, 2013, 01:54:04 PM »

Because it is a Proven Fact that you failed to refute, John 1:1(I'd argue John's whole Gospel), Genesis 1:26-27, The Great Commission, 1 John 5:7, Acts, Hebrews 1 clearly says Jesus Christ is God, even The Father calls Him God,)

I am not trying to refute the Trinity.  I am simply showing you your own hypocrisy and cherry picking abilities.

unlike where Homosexuality has absolutely no mention.

So which books of the bible do you actually accept?  I know of at least five you dismiss right now simply based off of your inadequate understanding of God's condemnation of homosexuality.

"I am not trying to refute the Trinity.  I am simply showing you your own hypocrisy and cherry picking abilities."

What hypocrisy? The Bible Clearly says The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are God, so The Father is God, Jesus Christ is God, and The Holy Spirit is God, yet God is One, but then you read Genesis 1:26-27 and you find out God who is one is yet multipersonal, now if there are more persons I would have found so, but only 3, so that means God is 3 persons yet 1, aka Trinity, there is no cherry picking, just crystal clear as day facts.


"So which books of the bible do you actually accept?"  All

"I know of at least five you dismiss right now simply based off of your inadequate understanding of God's condemnation of homosexuality."

Which ones, also God doesn't condemn homosexuality. I already know at least Five books in which you add your satanistic bigotry to The Word, if you studied, you would see, no homosexuality.
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« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2013, 02:03:54 PM »


Already then, where is Homosexuality mentioned in Deuteronomy?

I haven’t looked.  I suppose I could, but it really makes no difference because it is clearly addressed in several other books throughout the Old and New Testaments. 

every death sentence Law from Leviticus, is repeated in Deuteronomy, yet in Deuteronomy it's missing,
And…

and instead Temple Prostitution is mentioned and condemned to Death,
So…

add that to the fact that Leviticus can mean and most likely is Temple Prostitution.
 

No other possibilities?


your Hell bound bigotry cannot change The Word of God,
 

Truth is bigotry?  That’s interesting.  I never knew God was a bigot.

Revelation 22:18 - I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

Ponder on this verse for a while…a long while.


"I never knew God was a bigot."

God is not bigoted. man is, and I once was too. man hates and makes a big deal of homosexuality instead of focusing on True sins, when God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) doesn't care about it as He never condemned it, probably didn't even mention it at all(if I am wrong about eunuches, but if I am right, He condones homosexuality) bigotry hates Truth from God, Truth from God is that homosexuality isn't a sin, man's bigotry therefore hates Truth.

"I haven’t looked.  I suppose I could, but it really makes no difference because it is clearly addressed in several other books throughout the Old and New Testaments.  "

Actually it does, because if it isn't in Deuteronomy then it isn't in Leviticus, as in Deuteronomy every sin sentenced to death in Leviticus is repeated in Deuteronomy, this proves your lack of study, for some reason. instead in Deuteronomy Temple Prostitution is condemned and Leviticus can mean Temple Prostitution, therefore Temple Prostitution is what is condemned.

http://livelonger.hubpages.com/hub/leviticus-homosexuality

"No other possibilities?"

Nope, as proven above.

"Ponder on this verse for a while…a long while."

Exactly, you should.
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« Reply #114 on: March 03, 2013, 02:08:02 PM »

Without being too explicit, I think it is pretty obvious that homosexuality--at the very least--isn't natural from God in that homosexual sex does not produce children. As Orthodox Christians--correct me if I'm wrong--we see the purpose of sexuality as being to produce children so that we could raise them up via the family unit--which is an Icon of the relationship Christ has with His Church. Any other sexual practice which does not produce this is a human perversion for pleasure and somewhat selfish (although not much more selfish than anything else we do on a daily basis) in that there is nothing godly about it. I think this is why homosexual sex and even masturbation might be more spiritually harmful and unnatural than normal fornication--because neither will produce a family and are selfish, whereas fornication is at least somewhat natural and can lead to a family.

I've read that the idea that marriage is only for procreation is an idea particular to western Roman Catholicism.  Various Orthodox say marriage is a way to work out one's salvation, not only for having children.  Fornication does not bring one closer to God.

"Fornication" is not a sin, Prostitution is.

2, Marriage is for love, an agreement to love and be together for a lifetime. sex isn't only for procreation, that is what satan would say and that is what Paul warned us about,

1 Timothy 4:4 - For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

3, "Fornication does not bring one closer to God. "

Nor does eating, talking, thinking, drinking, playing, working, etc, Only Prayer, Believing, Loving God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and Reading/Studying His Word, does that mean everything is a sin? no, just Keep God in Mind and remember that He created sex(what you call fornication), so thank Him for sex, for food, for love, for life, for everything He Created.
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« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2013, 02:22:44 PM »

Without being too explicit, I think it is pretty obvious that homosexuality--at the very least--isn't natural from God in that homosexual sex does not produce children. As Orthodox Christians--correct me if I'm wrong--we see the purpose of sexuality as being to produce children so that we could raise them up via the family unit--which is an Icon of the relationship Christ has with His Church. Any other sexual practice which does not produce this is a human perversion for pleasure and somewhat selfish (although not much more selfish than anything else we do on a daily basis) in that there is nothing godly about it. I think this is why homosexual sex and even masturbation might be more spiritually harmful and unnatural than normal fornication--because neither will produce a family and are selfish, whereas fornication is at least somewhat natural and can lead to a family.

"Without being too explicit, I think it is pretty obvious that homosexuality--at the very least--isn't natural from God in that homosexual sex does not produce children. "

Duh, Homosexuality was never God's Intention, but then again, nor was aids, death, dwarfism etc, should we condemn them and keep them from living? No.

Condemning Homosexuality is like condemning someone for dwarfism because it wasn't in The Original Design, of course it wasn't but it still ain't a sin.

"As Orthodox Christians--correct me if I'm wrong--we see the purpose of sexuality as being to produce children so that we could raise them up via the family unit--which is an Icon of the relationship Christ has with His Church. Any other sexual practice which does not produce this is a human perversion for pleasure and somewhat selfish (although not much more selfish than anything else we do on a daily basis) in that there is nothing godly about it."

Do not be deceived by satan,

- Songs of Solomon

- 1 Cor 7, 7 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

- Proverbs 5:19, A loving doe, a graceful deer--may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love.

Please do not be decieved, Paul by The Holy Spirit(God) warned us of this,

1 Timothy 4: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

" I think this is why homosexual sex and even masturbation might be more spiritually harmful and unnatural than normal fornication--because neither will produce a family and are selfish, whereas fornication is at least somewhat natural and can lead to a family."

Caring about yourself and doing something for yourself isn't selfishness, otherwise wanting to be Saved by Jesus Christ is selfish. eating would be selfish.

Selfishness is just caring about yourself and not others, or caring about yourself to the extreme or having an evil selfish desire.

Wanting sex is on par with wanting food, God gave us these desires.

Masturbation is not a sin, God never said it was, "fornication"(premarital sex) isn't a sin, never mentioned in The Bible, and sex's purpose isn't only procreation(as proven above)

Start reading The Bible, enough with the self proclaimed "church" who put royalty on The Pope and make Him out to be a god, all month hearing The Pope be promoted, not once hearing about Jesus Christ, The True Pope! The True King!, The True God!(As well as The Father, and The Holy Spirit)
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« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2013, 02:24:04 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.
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« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2013, 02:28:37 PM »

Since you so love the scriptures, Saved By Christ, I know you will recognize this verse: "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."
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« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2013, 02:40:43 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

I told you that homosexuality, masturbation and fornication are sins.  You don't listen; hence, I reject your Bible, your Christianity and your Truth.

I'll defeat all arguments presented by one googolplex raised to one googolplex power versions of you.   Angry

http://www.googolplex.com/
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« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2013, 03:55:05 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray.  I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea. 
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« Reply #120 on: March 03, 2013, 04:01:04 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

I told you that homosexuality, masturbation and fornication are sins.  You don't listen; hence, I reject your Bible, your Christianity and your Truth.

I'll defeat all arguments presented by one googolplex raised to one googolplex power versions of you.   Angry

http://www.googolplex.com/

Go ahead and prove they are sin if they are sin I will accept it, however if I refute you and I will by The Power of The Holy Spirit, you have to agree that they aren't sin.

Also rejecting "my" Bible, "my" Christianity, and "my" Truth, is rejecting The Bible, The Christianity, and The Truth, as my God, is YHWH(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and He is your God too.
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« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2013, 04:01:59 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

I told you that homosexuality, masturbation and fornication are sins.  You don't listen; hence, I reject your Bible, your Christianity and your Truth.

I'll defeat all arguments presented by one googolplex raised to one googolplex power versions of you.   Angry

http://www.googolplex.com/

Go ahead and prove they are sin if they are sin I will accept it, however if I refute you and I will by The Power of The Holy Spirit, you have to agree that they aren't sin.

Also rejecting "my" Bible, "my" Christianity, and "my" Truth, is rejecting The Bible, The Christianity, and The Truth, as my God, is YHWH(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and He is your God too.

Do you think you speak for the Holy Spirit?
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« Reply #122 on: March 03, 2013, 04:02:23 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray.  I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.  

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.
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« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2013, 04:03:34 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

I told you that homosexuality, masturbation and fornication are sins.  You don't listen; hence, I reject your Bible, your Christianity and your Truth.

I'll defeat all arguments presented by one googolplex raised to one googolplex power versions of you.   Angry

http://www.googolplex.com/

Go ahead and prove they are sin if they are sin I will accept it, however if I refute you and I will by The Power of The Holy Spirit, you have to agree that they aren't sin.

Also rejecting "my" Bible, "my" Christianity, and "my" Truth, is rejecting The Bible, The Christianity, and The Truth, as my God, is YHWH(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and He is your God too.

Do you think you speak for the Holy Spirit?

Nope, I do not speak "for", The Holy Spirit(God), He speaks for Himself, He speaks for me, as I am nobody, all wisdom comes from The Holy Spirit, so I can do nothing for Him, we can't help Him, He helps us. we don't speak for Him, He speaks for us, through us.
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« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2013, 04:03:53 PM »

Since you so love the scriptures, Saved By Christ, I know you will recognize this verse: "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."

Amen.
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« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2013, 04:16:29 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

I told you that homosexuality, masturbation and fornication are sins.  You don't listen; hence, I reject your Bible, your Christianity and your Truth.

I'll defeat all arguments presented by one googolplex raised to one googolplex power versions of you.   Angry

http://www.googolplex.com/

Go ahead and prove they are sin if they are sin I will accept it, however if I refute you and I will by The Power of The Holy Spirit, you have to agree that they aren't sin.

Your arguments amount to nothing.

Also rejecting "my" Bible, "my" Christianity, and "my" Truth, is rejecting The Bible, The Christianity, and The Truth, as my God, is YHWH(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and He is your God too.

No.  You're selling us the Golden Calf and no one is bowing down to your version of Christianity.
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« Reply #126 on: March 03, 2013, 04:22:49 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

I told you that homosexuality, masturbation and fornication are sins.  You don't listen; hence, I reject your Bible, your Christianity and your Truth.

I'll defeat all arguments presented by one googolplex raised to one googolplex power versions of you.   Angry

http://www.googolplex.com/

Go ahead and prove they are sin if they are sin I will accept it, however if I refute you and I will by The Power of The Holy Spirit, you have to agree that they aren't sin.

Your arguments amount to nothing.

Also rejecting "my" Bible, "my" Christianity, and "my" Truth, is rejecting The Bible, The Christianity, and The Truth, as my God, is YHWH(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and He is your God too.

No.  You're selling us the Golden Calf and no one is bowing down to your version of Christianity.

"Your arguments amount to nothing."

Alrighty then, prove it, show why my arguments amount to nothing.


"No.  You're selling us the Golden Calf and no one is bowing down to your version of Christianity."


Says the hypocrite selling... the golden calf. also not "my" version but what The Bible tells me.
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« Reply #127 on: March 03, 2013, 04:24:43 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

I told you that homosexuality, masturbation and fornication are sins.  You don't listen; hence, I reject your Bible, your Christianity and your Truth.

I'll defeat all arguments presented by one googolplex raised to one googolplex power versions of you.   Angry

http://www.googolplex.com/

Go ahead and prove they are sin if they are sin I will accept it, however if I refute you and I will by The Power of The Holy Spirit, you have to agree that they aren't sin.

Also rejecting "my" Bible, "my" Christianity, and "my" Truth, is rejecting The Bible, The Christianity, and The Truth, as my God, is YHWH(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and He is your God too.

Do you think you speak for the Holy Spirit?

Nope, I do not speak "for", The Holy Spirit(God), He speaks for Himself, He speaks for me, as I am nobody,

If you were a real preacher, you would have a real website.  Joel Osteen has a ministry.  Joyce Meyer has a ministry.  What is your ministry other than going on Internet forums and debating random people while deceiving unsuspecting individuals?

all wisdom comes from The Holy Spirit, so I can do nothing for Him, we can't help Him, He helps us. we don't speak for Him, He speaks for us, through us to confuse and deceive us..

Just wanted to complete the above thought.   Smiley

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« Reply #128 on: March 03, 2013, 04:27:29 PM »

"Your arguments amount to nothing."

Alrighty then, prove it, show why my arguments amount to nothing.

You misinterpret the Song of Solomon.


"No.  You're selling us the Golden Calf and no one is bowing down to your version of Christianity."


Says the hypocrite selling... the golden calf. also not "my" version but what The Bible tells me.

I don't know what your "Bible" says about the golden calf.  I imagine that your Bible is less than 50 pages.
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« Reply #129 on: March 03, 2013, 04:34:29 PM »

Calling people names like "hypocrite" and "antichrist" is not a nice thing to do.
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« Reply #130 on: March 03, 2013, 04:42:35 PM »

"Your arguments amount to nothing."

Alrighty then, prove it, show why my arguments amount to nothing.

You misinterpret the Song of Solomon.


"No.  You're selling us the Golden Calf and no one is bowing down to your version of Christianity."


Says the hypocrite selling... the golden calf. also not "my" version but what The Bible tells me.

I don't know what your "Bible" says about the golden calf.  I imagine that your Bible is less than 50 pages.

"You misinterpret the Song of Solomon."

Prove how.

"I don't know what your "Bible" says about the golden calf.  I imagine that your Bible is less than 50 pages"

Nope, The Bible I know and love consist of,


Old Testament
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 & 2 Samuel
1 & 2 Kings
1 & 2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi
New Testament
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 & 2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation

None of which say Homosexuality, Premarital sex, and Masturbation are sin and actually condemn those who say such a thing,

Colossians 2

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.
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« Reply #131 on: March 03, 2013, 04:45:12 PM »

^ If you cited from something, you need to provide credit and a reference.
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« Reply #132 on: March 03, 2013, 04:50:36 PM »

Calling people names like "hypocrite" and "antichrist" is not a nice thing to do.

If one is being a hypocrite, then they are a hypocrite, if one is going against Jesus Christ(God), they are an anti-Christ.

Sorry if I offended, am fed up with false doctrines and being so blinded by them, just like the "atheist"'s who when God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) and The Bible are Proven True for a Fact, they are still in denial, is with those who hold a false doctrine such as penal substitution, or Homosexual bigotry, or Abstaining people from sex, or saying things never even referred to The Bible as sin.

We were warned, Revelation 22:18-19: I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

On hypocrites,

Matthew 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." - Jesus Christ(God)
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« Reply #133 on: March 03, 2013, 04:51:29 PM »

^ If you cited from something, you need to provide credit and a reference.

Colossians 2:16-23, Straight from The Bible.
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« Reply #134 on: March 03, 2013, 04:54:29 PM »

^ If you cited from something, you need to provide credit and a reference.

Colossians 2:16-23, Straight from The Bible.

What translation?  You have your own "Bible."  I asked before what version and received no response.  When you quote from a Bible with a different translation, it is customary to provide the translation such that it can be verified.
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« Reply #135 on: March 03, 2013, 07:33:32 PM »


"Fornication" is not a sin, Prostitution is.


Well, that's convenient for you.  So as long as a man or woman doesn't charge you for gratifying your impulses, it's a lot more affordable.  How practical! 




2, Marriage is for love, an agreement to love and be together for a lifetime. sex isn't only for procreation, that is what satan would say and that is what Paul warned us about,

1 Timothy 4:4 - For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,


I'm not really sure what you are trying to get across here, but then I don't understand much of anything you say.  It's the same phenomena I experience when trying to talk with a Jehovah's Witness, or the ranting handyman going on and on about the sons of Cain walk among us while trying to stroke my arm, or the Potter's church guy who tried to tell me I go to the wrong church, something about our hearts all being completely wicked, then started babbling in glossolalia before he ran from my door.  I feel really bad for the kid he was dragging around with him.  I think it is God protecting me from a bunch of (antonym of shinola). 

Anyway, not that this has anything to do with what you said, anymore than what you said had anything to do with what I said, but marriages in the past were often arranged.  Some people think those marriages were often better because people didn't have the modern notions of romantic love and the rules of courtly love to live up to. 


You seem to be cherry picking the Bible to suit your fancies.


3, "Fornication does not bring one closer to God. "

Nor does eating, talking, thinking, drinking, playing, working, etc, Only Prayer, Believing, Loving God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and Reading/Studying His Word, does that mean everything is a sin? no, just Keep God in Mind and remember that He created sex(what you call fornication), so thank Him for sex, for food, for love, for life, for everything He Created.

Dude, I did not say that sex within marriage is fornication.  And I didn't make the rules.  Fornication is sex outside of marriage.  And I don't appreciate your insinuation that I don't thank God for the many blessings I have everyday, and then try to convince me to sin while you're at it.

And to remind you, the difference between eating and drinking and going to work is that those are pretty much required to sustain one's own life and the lives of our family members, and having sex is not.  Nowadays secular society will try to convince you that it is necessary, but that obviously is not true. 

I'm happy for you that you got over your homophobia issue.  I've often thought that homophobics, (people who rant on and on and harass gay people) are actually suppressing that tendency in themselves, or they are simply afraid of male on male predation; predatory behavior from men is something a lot of women have to put up with everyday.  I could have been wrong in thinking that, but whatever.  Just because you've realized that you shouldn't hate other people based on their proclivities, as this is God's command to us, doesn't mean that all behavior is condoned by God.  You have a logical disconnect there, as well as in other areas.


I completely disagree with what you are apparently trying to do here; which is to convince Christians to commit sins and live by your rule of sexual depravity.  I'm not sure, but I wonder if you're arguing this much about it because you are really trying to convince yourself that you can sin without suffering the consequences, more than you are trying to convince anyone else.  It's the same type thinking you had before when you were a homophobic, only in reverse.  Both are in error.


I don't have much else to say to you.  I think we are at an impasse. 





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« Reply #136 on: March 03, 2013, 07:48:15 PM »

SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Quote
Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/
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« Reply #137 on: March 03, 2013, 09:22:39 PM »

Calling people names like "hypocrite" and "antichrist" is not a nice thing to do.

I like fire and brimstone.
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« Reply #138 on: March 03, 2013, 10:07:16 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray.  I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.  

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.

Two thousand years of the Church's teaching proves it.  You have nothing, and you have no power over me.  Your lies were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead.
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« Reply #139 on: March 03, 2013, 10:19:22 PM »

Is it wrong to make an argument that eventhough the Bible doesn't explicitly condemn premarital sex as a whole, you would need to look at what the apostles wrote as a whole and infer that it is sinful.

You are attacking a windmill, SBC94
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« Reply #140 on: March 03, 2013, 11:03:36 PM »


"Fornication" is not a sin, Prostitution is.


Well, that's convenient for you.  So as long as a man or woman doesn't charge you for gratifying your impulses, it's a lot more affordable.  How practical! 




2, Marriage is for love, an agreement to love and be together for a lifetime. sex isn't only for procreation, that is what satan would say and that is what Paul warned us about,

1 Timothy 4:4 - For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,


I'm not really sure what you are trying to get across here, but then I don't understand much of anything you say.  It's the same phenomena I experience when trying to talk with a Jehovah's Witness, or the ranting handyman going on and on about the sons of Cain walk among us while trying to stroke my arm, or the Potter's church guy who tried to tell me I go to the wrong church, something about our hearts all being completely wicked, then started babbling in glossolalia before he ran from my door.  I feel really bad for the kid he was dragging around with him.  I think it is God protecting me from a bunch of (antonym of shinola). 

Anyway, not that this has anything to do with what you said, anymore than what you said had anything to do with what I said, but marriages in the past were often arranged.  Some people think those marriages were often better because people didn't have the modern notions of romantic love and the rules of courtly love to live up to. 


You seem to be cherry picking the Bible to suit your fancies.


3, "Fornication does not bring one closer to God. "

Nor does eating, talking, thinking, drinking, playing, working, etc, Only Prayer, Believing, Loving God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and Reading/Studying His Word, does that mean everything is a sin? no, just Keep God in Mind and remember that He created sex(what you call fornication), so thank Him for sex, for food, for love, for life, for everything He Created.

Dude, I did not say that sex within marriage is fornication.  And I didn't make the rules.  Fornication is sex outside of marriage.  And I don't appreciate your insinuation that I don't thank God for the many blessings I have everyday, and then try to convince me to sin while you're at it.

And to remind you, the difference between eating and drinking and going to work is that those are pretty much required to sustain one's own life and the lives of our family members, and having sex is not.  Nowadays secular society will try to convince you that it is necessary, but that obviously is not true. 

I'm happy for you that you got over your homophobia issue.  I've often thought that homophobics, (people who rant on and on and harass gay people) are actually suppressing that tendency in themselves, or they are simply afraid of male on male predation; predatory behavior from men is something a lot of women have to put up with everyday.  I could have been wrong in thinking that, but whatever.  Just because you've realized that you shouldn't hate other people based on their proclivities, as this is God's command to us, doesn't mean that all behavior is condoned by God.  You have a logical disconnect there, as well as in other areas.


I completely disagree with what you are apparently trying to do here; which is to convince Christians to commit sins and live by your rule of sexual depravity.  I'm not sure, but I wonder if you're arguing this much about it because you are really trying to convince yourself that you can sin without suffering the consequences, more than you are trying to convince anyone else.  It's the same type thinking you had before when you were a homophobic, only in reverse.  Both are in error.


I don't have much else to say to you.  I think we are at an impasse. 







"Well, that's convenient for you.  So as long as a man or woman doesn't charge you for gratifying your impulses, it's a lot more affordable.  How practical! "

Proverbs 10:18 - The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.

"I'm not really sure what you are trying to get across here, but then I don't understand much of anything you say.  It's the same phenomena I experience when trying to talk with a Jehovah's Witness, or the ranting handyman going on and on about the sons of Cain walk among us while trying to stroke my arm, or the Potter's church guy who tried to tell me I go to the wrong church, something about our hearts all being completely wicked, then started babbling in glossolalia before he ran from my door.  I feel really bad for the kid he was dragging around with him.  I think it is God protecting me from a bunch of (antonym of shinola)."


Anyway, not that this has anything to do with what you said, anymore than what you said had anything to do with what I said, but marriages in the past were often arranged.  Some people think those marriages were often better because people didn't have the modern notions of romantic love and the rules of courtly love to live up to."

That was cultural, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) allows us to marry or be with whom we choose.

"You seem to be cherry picking the Bible to suit your fancies. "

What fancies? Notice the assumption, I'm the guy who actually prefers one to make it happen with that special person due to a little jealousy issue, but due to your assumption I will pull Scripture,

John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”, This guy assumes that I want to suit "fancies" when he doesn't even know me.

"Dude, I did not say that sex within marriage is fornication.  And I didn't make the rules.  Fornication is sex outside of marriage." 

And Fornication isn't condemned in The Bible, Prostitution is, Porneas has 2 meanings.

"And I don't appreciate your insinuation that I don't thank God for the many blessings I have everyday, "

Never did that, I said it in general.

"and then try to convince me to sin while you're at it."

Where? I try to convince you to stop sinning with pharisee man made laws and adding to The Word of God(The Bible)

And to remind you, the difference between eating and drinking and going to work is that those are pretty much required to sustain one's own life and the lives of our family members, and having sex is not. 

Actually sex is, no sex, no continuation of life. also since that's the case and if you're not a hypocrite, you will easily just eat wheat for every meal, since according to you selfish pleasure(such as taste) that isn't necessary and the main reason for eating is to live and since you deem pleasure  a "selfish" desire, then if you are not a hypocrite you'll give up TV, eat just wheat, etc, obviously not, as God made pleasure the Main Purpose in life, our purpose is to get Pleasure in God with ourselves and others and what He gives out of His love for us and to Love God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit). That is what you do with every breath, so please don't be a hypocrite.


Nowadays secular society will try to convince you that it is necessary, but that obviously is not true. 

I'm happy for you that you got over your homophobia issue.  I've often thought that homophobics, (people who rant on and on and harass gay people) are actually suppressing that tendency in themselves, or they are simply afraid of male on male predation; predatory behavior from men is something a lot of women have to put up with everyday. 


I wouldn't deem myself a hateful homophobe, as deep down I felt bad about it and had to force myself because of The Bible and being raised that way

I could have been wrong in thinking that, but whatever.  Just because you've realized that you shouldn't hate other people based on their proclivities, as this is God's command to us, doesn't mean that all behavior is condoned by God.  You have a logical disconnect there, as well as in other areas.

That isn't the reason why I came to know that Homosexuality is ok and not a sin. after doing alot of studying and my heart was touched. found out it wasn't a sin, and realized that all along it was wrong to condemn homosexuality. I used to get intrusive thoughts because of it. before I was Saved, I never had a problem with Homosexuality, we'd make fun of those who are Homosexual but never hated them and actually supported their cause, when I became Saved and thought it was a sin is when I had to fight it til I got used to it being a sin, because I thought God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned it, now because of this I get scared that when I thought I had God in my life(the time when I condemned Homosexuality) that I was not really Saved, now I feel even more Saved due to repenting of my sin of condemning what is not sin.

Lets look at what has happened since then, I(By The Holy Spirit)

- I Refuted The Problem of Suffering

- I Proved why we need to eat animals

- I disproved "atheism" and Penal Substitution.


All because of The Holy Spirit showing me that it ain't a sin.

I completely disagree with what you are apparently trying to do here; which is to convince Christians to commit sins and live by your rule of sexual depravity.
 

That is funny, because I completely disagree with what you are apparently trying to do here; which is to convince Christians to commit sins(calling sin to what is not a sin) and live by your rule of sexual depravity.(Oppressing others by adding words to The Word of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)


I'm not sure, but I wonder if you're arguing this much about it because you are really trying to convince yourself that you can sin without suffering the consequences, more than you are trying to convince anyone else.  It's the same type thinking you had before when you were a homophobic, only in reverse.  Both are in error.

Actually when I was homophobic and your current view are Hell-bound, luckily I was Saved from a false doctrine, and proved Homosexuality is not a sin.


"I don't have much else to say to you.  I think we are at an impasse." 


Basically waving the White Flag.

Let this debate serve as a prime example of when you believe man(the so called "church" which isn't The True Church) above or instead of The Bible(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's Word)
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« Reply #141 on: March 03, 2013, 11:07:27 PM »

Is it wrong to make an argument that eventhough the Bible doesn't explicitly condemn premarital sex as a whole,

That's it case closed.

you would need to look at what the apostles wrote as a whole and infer that it is sinful.

And Apostles never condemned it nor did God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

You are attacking a windmill, SBC94

I'm destroying phariseeism with Truth.

Matthew 21:31 - Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."
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« Reply #142 on: March 03, 2013, 11:09:41 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray.  I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.  

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.

Two thousand years of the Church's teaching proves it.  You have nothing, and you have no power over me.  Your lies were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead.

Which Church? Do you know what The Church is? it is not to be a denomination, so therefore orthodox ain't The Church. of course I have no power over you.

Also, I presented  you Facts from The Bible, are you saying Christ lied when in His Word all the things I argue for are there? I will reverse you and say that your lies were destroyed when Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

You are placed on post moderation for 99 days because of your egregious violation of the policy regarding discussions on homosexuality:

"1) The administration of OCnet fully supports the Orthodox Church's position that homosexual relations are sinful.

2) Discussion will again be allowed openly, but those expressing positions contrary to the received tradition of the Orthodox Church will need to respect the fact that the Orthodox Church's teaching is not under question, and that their positions are at variance with the consensus of the Church. What this means practically is that anyone expressing the position that active homosexual practices can somehow be reconciled with the Orthodox Church's teaching will be allowed to offer this position if they do so respectfully and with the understanding that their position is novel.  Anyone arguing vocally or in a belligerent way that the Orthodox Church's teaching is wrong or that it will be changed at some point of the future will be moderated per the normal moderatorial procedure in place.

The goal here is to affirm the traditional Orthodox teaching, not forcibly subject Orthodox Christians on an Orthodox forum to novel opinions, while allow discussion on a topic which for whatever reason engenders more than normally passionate debate and discord.
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We state unequivocally that those who have a homosexual orientation, if it can be scientifically determined to be such, or who struggle with a temptation towards homosexuality, are accepted and loved as brothers and sisters, and are welcome in the Church, even if they have failings as do we all.  Our upholding of the traditional Orthodox position as the website administration does not seek to discount individuals and their real struggles."

If you do not agree with this decision, please PM me. Carl Kraeff (Second Chance), Section Moderator
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« Reply #143 on: March 03, 2013, 11:12:21 PM »

SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Quote
Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.
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« Reply #144 on: March 03, 2013, 11:37:19 PM »

SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Quote
Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

The Lockman Foundation is behind the New American Standard Bible.  That's the translation you've been using.  Find out more about them here:

http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"
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« Reply #145 on: March 03, 2013, 11:41:05 PM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray.  I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.  

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.

Two thousand years of the Church's teaching proves it.  You have nothing, and you have no power over me.  Your lies were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead.

Which Church? Do you know what The Church is?

Orthodox Christians do.  You don't.

it is not to be a denomination, so therefore orthodox ain't The Church.

The Devil loves to take advantage of division.

of course I have no power over you.

You're correct.

Also, I presented  you Facts from The Bible, are you saying Christ lied when in His Word all the things I argue for are there? I will reverse you and say that your lies were destroyed when Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

The Devil has been judged; yet, he is allowed to roam the earth and take advantage of unsuspecting souls by telling them it is OK to be homosexual, to fornicate, to have abortions and to have pre-marital sex.
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« Reply #146 on: March 03, 2013, 11:52:45 PM »

<snip>

Your reply to Velsigne is unreadable.  Can you summarize what you told her in 50 words or less?
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« Reply #147 on: March 04, 2013, 12:50:54 AM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray.  I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.  

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.

Two thousand years of the Church's teaching proves it.  You have nothing, and you have no power over me.  Your lies were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead.

Which Church? Do you know what The Church is?

Orthodox Christians do.  You don't.

it is not to be a denomination, so therefore orthodox ain't The Church.

The Devil loves to take advantage of division.

of course I have no power over you.

You're correct.

Also, I presented  you Facts from The Bible, are you saying Christ lied when in His Word all the things I argue for are there? I will reverse you and say that your lies were destroyed when Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

The Devil has been judged; yet, he is allowed to roam the earth and take advantage of unsuspecting souls by telling them it is OK to be homosexual, to fornicate, to have abortions and to have pre-marital sex.

"The Devil has been judged; yet, he is allowed to roam the earth and take advantage of unsuspecting souls by telling them it is OK to be homosexual, to fornicate, to have abortions and to have pre-marital sex."

Woah woah woah, never said abortion is a sin, that's an obvious sin. The others though, not a sin.

Now onto the next part, It's backwards hypocrite, the devil has been judged and tells indoctrinated, souls that it is ok to add to God's Word and condemn Homosexuality, to say that YHWH's Gift of Sexuality is wrong and one cannot have sex until marriage despite songs of solomon, that's it ok to have Faith "alone" or the false doctrine of penal substitution, or that abortions(murder) would be ok.

pharisees are in the same league as an "atheist" and abortionist, there is no difference.

"Orthodox Christians do.  You don't."

It's an impossibility for The Original Church to exist, man has made up their own doctrines, at least one needs to have been added, therefore Orthodox Church isn't The Original Church, The Church only exists as Believers in The Gospel, that's it.


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« Reply #148 on: March 04, 2013, 12:52:27 AM »

SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Quote
Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

The Lockman Foundation is behind the New American Standard Bible.  That's the translation you've been using.  Find out more about them here:

http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"


Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."
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« Reply #149 on: March 04, 2013, 01:04:50 AM »

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.   Roll Eyes

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray.  I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.  

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.

Two thousand years of the Church's teaching proves it.  You have nothing, and you have no power over me.  Your lies were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead.

Which Church? Do you know what The Church is?

Orthodox Christians do.  You don't.

it is not to be a denomination, so therefore orthodox ain't The Church.

The Devil loves to take advantage of division.

of course I have no power over you.

You're correct.

Also, I presented  you Facts from The Bible, are you saying Christ lied when in His Word all the things I argue for are there? I will reverse you and say that your lies were destroyed when Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

The Devil has been judged; yet, he is allowed to roam the earth and take advantage of unsuspecting souls by telling them it is OK to be homosexual, to fornicate, to have abortions and to have pre-marital sex.

"The Devil has been judged; yet, he is allowed to roam the earth and take advantage of unsuspecting souls by telling them it is OK to be homosexual, to fornicate, to have abortions and to have pre-marital sex."

Woah woah woah, never said abortion is a sin, that's an obvious sin. The others though, not a sin.

Now onto the next part, It's backwards hypocrite,

Aren't we getting a little personal? 

the devil has been judged and tells indoctrinated, souls that it is ok to add to God's Word and condemn Homosexuality, to say that YHWH's Gift of Sexuality is wrong and one cannot have sex until marriage despite songs of solomon, that's it ok to have Faith "alone" or the false doctrine of penal substitution, or that abortions(murder) would be ok.

pharisees are in the same league as an "atheist" and abortionist, there is no difference.

For a moment, I thought you were defending the Devil on abortion.
 
"Orthodox Christians do.  You don't."

It's an impossibility for The Original Church to exist, man has made up their own doctrines, at least one needs to have been added, therefore Orthodox Church isn't The Original Church, The Church only exists as Believers in The Gospel, that's it.

You're not the only forum member who believes that the "Original Church" has disappeared.
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« Reply #150 on: March 04, 2013, 01:16:59 AM »

SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Quote
Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

The Lockman Foundation is behind the New American Standard Bible.  That's the translation you've been using.  Find out more about them here:

http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"


Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

They must be your teachers.  They worked on the original and updated NASB.

http://www.talbot.edu/faculty/profile/robert_saucy/
http://www.pointloma.edu/experience/academics/centers-institutes/wesleyan-center/staff/frank-carver

I prefer you use the KJV and the original Greek sources for the OT & NT.
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« Reply #151 on: March 04, 2013, 02:38:10 AM »

<snip>

Your reply to Velsigne is unreadable.  Can you summarize what you told her in 50 words or less?

SavedByChrist94, You've replied to everything else I've said.  Why haven't you replied to this simple request?   Huh
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« Reply #152 on: March 04, 2013, 06:28:15 AM »

Is it wrong to make an argument that eventhough the Bible doesn't explicitly condemn premarital sex as a whole,

That's it case closed.

you would need to look at what the apostles wrote as a whole and infer that it is sinful.

And Apostles never condemned it nor did God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

You are attacking a windmill, SBC94

I'm destroying phariseeism with Truth.

Matthew 21:31 - Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

The bible was written mostly by Jews, some Jews that became Christians.  The Jews considered in their culture that fornication was sexually immoral.  You can see evidence in this with Mary and her being a virgin and the concern of her community.

It is "common knowledge from the authors" and the bible doesn't explicitly list every single sexual act....  The bible doesn't talk about running around in bondage gear for example.... This type of stuff would undoubtedly be considered immoral in the times of the authors.
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« Reply #153 on: March 04, 2013, 06:28:15 AM »

SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Quote
Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

The Lockman Foundation is behind the New American Standard Bible.  That's the translation you've been using.  Find out more about them here:

http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"


Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

OK, then, here is Matthew 5:28 in the original Greek:

28 ᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

The bolded word gynaika means both wife and woman in every form of Greek language, from Homer's time to the present day modern language. Still want to argue that fornication is not a sin, SBC94?
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« Reply #154 on: March 04, 2013, 06:31:52 AM »

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

SolEX01 is a Greek.
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« Reply #155 on: March 04, 2013, 08:21:22 AM »

Because it is a Proven Fact that you failed to refute, John 1:1(I'd argue John's whole Gospel), Genesis 1:26-27, The Great Commission, 1 John 5:7, Acts, Hebrews 1 clearly says Jesus Christ is God, even The Father calls Him God,)

I am not trying to refute the Trinity.  I am simply showing you your own hypocrisy and cherry picking abilities.

unlike where Homosexuality has absolutely no mention.

So which books of the bible do you actually accept?  I know of at least five you dismiss right now simply based off of your inadequate understanding of God's condemnation of homosexuality.

"I am not trying to refute the Trinity.  I am simply showing you your own hypocrisy and cherry picking abilities."

What hypocrisy? The Bible Clearly says The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are God, so The Father is God, Jesus Christ is God, and The Holy Spirit is God, yet God is One, but then you read Genesis 1:26-27 and you find out God who is one is yet multipersonal, now if there are more persons I would have found so, but only 3, so that means God is 3 persons yet 1, aka Trinity, there is no cherry picking, just crystal clear as day facts.


"So which books of the bible do you actually accept?"  All

"I know of at least five you dismiss right now simply based off of your inadequate understanding of God's condemnation of homosexuality."

Which ones, also God doesn't condemn homosexuality. I already know at least Five books in which you add your satanistic bigotry to The Word, if you studied, you would see, no homosexuality.

I have seen people present a message like yours before while attempting to infiltrate a local church.  One of two things happens as a result.  The church both withers and dies, or the person is chased out and the church continues to thrive.
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« Reply #156 on: March 04, 2013, 08:51:32 AM »

Quote
Which Church? Do you know what The Church is?

Are you seriously posting on a forum where a majority of the members here believe that the Orthodox Church is the Church founded by Christ and asking them if they know what the Church is?
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« Reply #157 on: March 04, 2013, 02:39:59 PM »

Calling people names like "hypocrite" and "antichrist" is not a nice thing to do.
Then Jesus and His apostles were not nice men.
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« Reply #158 on: March 04, 2013, 02:45:25 PM »

Calling people names like "hypocrite" and "antichrist" is not a nice thing to do.
Then Jesus and His apostles were not nice men.

"Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. (Ephesians 4:15)"

I think I prefer this approach.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 02:45:46 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #159 on: March 04, 2013, 02:50:30 PM »

SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Quote
Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

So you know Greek?
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« Reply #160 on: March 04, 2013, 02:54:07 PM »

Calling people names like "hypocrite" and "antichrist" is not a nice thing to do.
Then Jesus and His apostles were not nice men.

"Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. (Ephesians 4:15)"

I think I prefer this approach.
But does love = nice? When Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and white-washed tombs, He wasn't speaking the truth in love? From my own personal experience, I can tell you that one of the most loving things anyone ever did for me was slap me upside the head with a proverbial 2-by-4.

I know you're speaking to SBC94, but the words you address to him undermine also the legitimate way some of us have related to him.
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« Reply #161 on: March 04, 2013, 03:00:18 PM »

Ah, I see your point and can hardly argue against it. But still it doesn't really feel right, but that's just me.
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« Reply #162 on: March 04, 2013, 06:18:37 PM »

SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Quote
Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

The Lockman Foundation is behind the New American Standard Bible.  That's the translation you've been using.  Find out more about them here:

http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"


Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

OK, then, here is Matthew 5:28 in the original Greek:

28 ᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

The bolded word gynaika means both wife and woman in every form of Greek language, from Homer's time to the present day modern language. Still want to argue that fornication is not a sin, SBC94?

Of course it's both wife and woman, however in this verse it means wife, want proof?

᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι means pros to epithumēsai

pros to comes BEFORE epithumēsai

So that means in order to epithumēsai(proof?

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men in order to be noticed by them.” (Matt 6:1)

Original Greek - Προσέχετε [a]δὲ τὴν δικαιοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μή γε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

“… First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles in order to burn them up ….” (Matt 13:30)

Original Greek, 30 ἄφετε συναυξάνεσθαι ἀμφότερα [a]μέχρι τοῦ θερισμοῦ· καὶ ἐν καιρῷ τοῦ θερισμοῦ ἐρῶ τοῖς θερισταῖς· Συλλέξατε πρῶτον τὰ ζιζάνια καὶ δήσατε αὐτὰ εἰς δέσμας πρὸς τὸ κατακαῦσαι αὐτά, τὸν δὲ σῖτον συναγάγετε εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην μου.

“But they do all their deeds in order to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.” (Matt 23:5)

Original Greek - 5 πάντα δὲ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ποιοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις· πλατύνουσι [a]γὰρ τὰ φυλακτήρια αὐτῶν καὶ μεγαλύνουσι τὰ κράσπεδα,

“For when she poured this perfume on my body, she did it in order to prepare me for burial.” (Matt 26:12)

Original Greek - 12 βαλοῦσα γὰρ αὕτη τὸ μύρον τοῦτο ἐπὶ τοῦ σώματός μου πρὸς τὸ ἐνταφιάσαι με ἐποίησεν.

All from Matthew.)



now lets go through all the definitions of epithumēsai( I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.) and see which can be put in the proper  sentence,


Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action,  whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

Added with looks at a woman in order to.

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.


So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

Now with this fact, that covet is an action and not a desire and as proven by http://Goddidntsaythat.com/2011/03/02/the-ten-commandments-dont-forbid-coveting/

Covet in The 10 Commandments means take.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10
I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

There ya go.



All proven here ---> http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49333.msg867619.html#msg867619

But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,
"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.
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« Reply #163 on: March 04, 2013, 06:38:31 PM »

SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Quote
Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

The Lockman Foundation is behind the New American Standard Bible.  That's the translation you've been using.  Find out more about them here:

http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"


Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

OK, then, here is Matthew 5:28 in the original Greek:

28 ᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

The bolded word gynaika means both wife and woman in every form of Greek language, from Homer's time to the present day modern language. Still want to argue that fornication is not a sin, SBC94?

Of course it's both wife and woman, however in this verse it means wife, want proof?

᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι means pros to epithumēsai

pros to comes BEFORE epithumēsai

So that means in order to epithumēsai(proof?

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men in order to be noticed by them.” (Matt 6:1)

Original Greek - Προσέχετε [a]δὲ τὴν δικαιοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μή γε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

“… First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles in order to burn them up ….” (Matt 13:30)

Original Greek, 30 ἄφετε συναυξάνεσθαι ἀμφότερα [a]μέχρι τοῦ θερισμοῦ· καὶ ἐν καιρῷ τοῦ θερισμοῦ ἐρῶ τοῖς θερισταῖς· Συλλέξατε πρῶτον τὰ ζιζάνια καὶ δήσατε αὐτὰ εἰς δέσμας πρὸς τὸ κατακαῦσαι αὐτά, τὸν δὲ σῖτον συναγάγετε εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην μου.

“But they do all their deeds in order to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.” (Matt 23:5)

Original Greek - 5 πάντα δὲ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ποιοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις· πλατύνουσι [a]γὰρ τὰ φυλακτήρια αὐτῶν καὶ μεγαλύνουσι τὰ κράσπεδα,

“For when she poured this perfume on my body, she did it in order to prepare me for burial.” (Matt 26:12)

Original Greek - 12 βαλοῦσα γὰρ αὕτη τὸ μύρον τοῦτο ἐπὶ τοῦ σώματός μου πρὸς τὸ ἐνταφιάσαι με ἐποίησεν.

All from Matthew.)



now lets go through all the definitions of epithumēsai( I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.) and see which can be put in the proper  sentence,


Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action,  whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

Added with looks at a woman in order to.

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.


So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

Now with this fact, that covet is an action and not a desire and as proven by http://Goddidntsaythat.com/2011/03/02/the-ten-commandments-dont-forbid-coveting/

Covet in The 10 Commandments means take.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10
I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

There ya go.



All proven here ---> http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49333.msg867619.html#msg867619

But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,
"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

Oh my God, you are absolutely right. I have been so wrong and bigoted all my life and it took your mistranslations, self-centeredness, and incurable OCD for me to realize the errors of my ways!
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« Reply #164 on: March 04, 2013, 06:45:08 PM »

Quote from: SavedByChrist94

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

 Huh

What the... ?

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« Reply #165 on: March 04, 2013, 06:58:16 PM »

But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,
"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

1.  What is the source for what you cited in Greek?

2.  ἀλλοτρίαν can also mean strange.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*a%3Aentry+group%3D91%3Aentry%3Da%29llo%2Ftrios

3.  FAIL.   police
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« Reply #166 on: March 04, 2013, 07:00:05 PM »

Quote
Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

...

Iz trollburger, yes?
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« Reply #167 on: March 04, 2013, 07:02:05 PM »

Quote
Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

You do realise that any woman not married to you belongs to another, don't you?
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« Reply #168 on: March 04, 2013, 07:15:01 PM »

Quote
Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

...

Iz trollburger, yes?

Yeah. I wonder how long this will go on.  Tongue
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« Reply #169 on: March 04, 2013, 07:15:42 PM »

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

Who agrees with you agrees with the Evil One.
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« Reply #170 on: March 04, 2013, 07:16:58 PM »

Quote
Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.
Iz trollburger, yes?

Yeah. I wonder how long this will go on.  Tongue
He has advanced to the yellow meatball.  It should end soon.
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« Reply #171 on: March 04, 2013, 07:25:15 PM »

Quote from: SavedByChrist94

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

 Huh

What the... ?



You and me both. My brain just exploded ....
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« Reply #172 on: March 04, 2013, 07:25:15 PM »

Quote
Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

You do realise that any woman not married to you belongs to another, don't you?

Ssssh! Don't confuse him with facts!  Wink
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« Reply #173 on: March 04, 2013, 07:35:27 PM »

(just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).


Huuh?I don't understand this statement...
 How can this be possible when Jesus is all about love and being respectful..Jesus wants harmony within the family..
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« Reply #174 on: March 04, 2013, 08:15:27 PM »

Quote from: SavedByChrist94

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

 Huh

What the... ?

Heh, I was just about to quote that and put the same response....
I've heard sermons on the topic, MANY times.... In fact, I think I've seen books written on the topic. (Small monastic books).
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« Reply #175 on: March 05, 2013, 02:41:47 AM »



...It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.


Poor Jason's thread!  Are you getting some other ideas as to why some people reject Christianity. 

You've nearly got a book on the topic in this thread alone!  lol

Lord have mercy. 
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« Reply #176 on: March 05, 2013, 02:45:58 AM »

Quote
Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

...

Iz trollburger, yes?

Yeah. I wonder how long this will go on.  Tongue

For as long as everyone here keeps taking the bait.
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« Reply #177 on: March 05, 2013, 02:58:47 AM »



Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

why?

read the 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal"

God(Father, Son, Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions. Desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin.



Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."



Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.





Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]




But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,

"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"



Quote
Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

You do realise that any woman not married to you belongs to another, don't you?



Okay, sigh, there, I fixed it so I could read it.  Thanks Arachne, that helped a lot! 

I totally get it now.  Desire or thinking a thought isn't a sin in and of itself, it's just when we continue to entertain that thought then action becomes more likely, then if we act on the bad thought, we have fallen into sin.  I think of it as an affliction to not be able to easily turn my mind to other things.  Some things are just upsetting, but I'm practicing at just putting things aside.

Saved By Christ, you don't happen to live next to me do you?  Are you a skinny guy with brown hair and blue eyes who feeds the crows every morning?
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« Reply #178 on: March 05, 2013, 03:12:50 AM »

(ok, so this is going to be kinda vague since I'm trying to keep it short)

It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.

Sad, isn't it.  #s 1&2 pretty much sums it up. 
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« Reply #179 on: March 05, 2013, 03:23:03 AM »

SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Quote
Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

The Lockman Foundation is behind the New American Standard Bible.  That's the translation you've been using.  Find out more about them here:

http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"


Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

OK, then, here is Matthew 5:28 in the original Greek:

28 ᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

The bolded word gynaika means both wife and woman in every form of Greek language, from Homer's time to the present day modern language. Still want to argue that fornication is not a sin, SBC94?

Of course it's both wife and woman, however in this verse it means wife, want proof?

᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι means pros to epithumēsai

pros to comes BEFORE epithumēsai

So that means in order to epithumēsai(proof?

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men in order to be noticed by them.” (Matt 6:1)

Original Greek - Προσέχετε [a]δὲ τὴν δικαιοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μή γε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

“… First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles in order to burn them up ….” (Matt 13:30)

Original Greek, 30 ἄφετε συναυξάνεσθαι ἀμφότερα [a]μέχρι τοῦ θερισμοῦ· καὶ ἐν καιρῷ τοῦ θερισμοῦ ἐρῶ τοῖς θερισταῖς· Συλλέξατε πρῶτον τὰ ζιζάνια καὶ δήσατε αὐτὰ εἰς δέσμας πρὸς τὸ κατακαῦσαι αὐτά, τὸν δὲ σῖτον συναγάγετε εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην μου.

“But they do all their deeds in order to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.” (Matt 23:5)

Original Greek - 5 πάντα δὲ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ποιοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις· πλατύνουσι [a]γὰρ τὰ φυλακτήρια αὐτῶν καὶ μεγαλύνουσι τὰ κράσπεδα,

“For when she poured this perfume on my body, she did it in order to prepare me for burial.” (Matt 26:12)

Original Greek - 12 βαλοῦσα γὰρ αὕτη τὸ μύρον τοῦτο ἐπὶ τοῦ σώματός μου πρὸς τὸ ἐνταφιάσαι με ἐποίησεν.

All from Matthew.)



now lets go through all the definitions of epithumēsai( I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.) and see which can be put in the proper  sentence,


Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action,  whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

Added with looks at a woman in order to.

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.


So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

Now with this fact, that covet is an action and not a desire and as proven by http://Goddidntsaythat.com/2011/03/02/the-ten-commandments-dont-forbid-coveting/

Covet in The 10 Commandments means take.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10
I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

There ya go.



All proven here ---> http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49333.msg867619.html#msg867619

But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,
"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

I get it.  You have your eye on a particular avatar, and think that if you can convince her that "lust is not a sin" that a date for next saturday night opens up.  Stay away from my parishioners, and from my deanery.  Actually, just stay away from everyone before you do 5000 prostrations.   BTW, stop hijacking Jason's thread.   
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« Reply #180 on: March 05, 2013, 12:19:27 PM »

But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,
"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

1.  What is the source for what you cited in Greek?

2.  ἀλλοτρίαν can also mean strange.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*a%3Aentry+group%3D91%3Aentry%3Da%29llo%2Ftrios

3.  FAIL.   police

 foreign, strange: γῆ, Acts 7:6; Hebrews 11:9; not of one's own family, alien, Matthew 17:25f; an enemy, Hebrews 11:34 (Homer, Iliad 5, 214; Xenophon, an. 3, 5, 5). - http://biblesuite.com/greek/245.htm

So according to this "strange" definition I could lust after any woman I want, except a "strange" one, which therefore you still still fail.

But obviously as proven the word is wife, and it says pros to covet(take), in reference to Exodus 20

Even without ἀλλοτρίαν it still means wife and pros to(in order to) so it's action.

but added with ἀλλοτρίαν it therefore FURTHER proves that lusting isn't a sin, so if it's your definition of strange, we just can't desire to take a strange woman(foreign) but can desire to take other women, which would include MARRIED women(who can possibily not be strange(foreign), BUT obviously desiring to steal a married woman from her husband, so the strange argument fails.

So the the Proper definition is Belongth to another(aka a wife, which is the True translation) then it means you cannot commit or plan adultery.

So you failed, Try Again.
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