Author Topic: LBK, help!  (Read 853 times)

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Offline mike

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LBK, help!
« on: February 17, 2013, 03:08:39 PM »
I've seen today a fresco of a young man with no beard in an omophorion. Who might he be?

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2013, 03:15:29 PM »
St. Ignatius of Constantinople? He was an eunuch and thus had no beard.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 03:15:51 PM by Cyrillic »
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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2013, 03:18:09 PM »
St. Ignatius of Constantinople? He was an eunuch and thus had no beard.

You're scaring me. May be, however I thought it would be someone more popular.

Offline biro

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 03:36:29 PM »
St. Ignatius of Constantinople? He was an eunuch and thus had no beard.

You're scaring me. May be, however I thought it would be someone more popular.

St. John the Evangelist was supposed to have been very young when he was called by Christ.
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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 03:37:13 PM »
He isn't portrayed as a bishop.

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 03:39:07 PM »
He isn't portrayed as a bishop.

Okay, sorry. Was St. Philip a bishop? He looks young in some of his icons. Just a guess.
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Offline LBK

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 05:05:52 PM »
He isn't portrayed as a bishop.

Okay, sorry. Was St. Philip a bishop? He looks young in some of his icons. Just a guess.

The three apostles who are shown beardless because of their youth are Sts Thomas, Philip, and John. None became bishops, and are never shown in episcopal vestments in their icons.

Several of the Seven Deacons, including Protomartyr Stephen, are shown beardless, and in diaconal vestments.

Michal, could you upload an image of the icon? IIRC there were one or two bishops who are shown beardless, but their name(s) escape me at present.
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Offline mike

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 05:17:40 PM »
I'm sorry, I don't have an icon. If I had, I could decipher it myself :P

He was painted in a composition amongst St. Cyrill (I recognised him because of his hat) and some 2 other bishops.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2013, 05:18:40 PM »
How come St. Cyril always has a funny hat?
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Offline LBK

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 05:32:46 PM »
My memory hasn't left me completely ....  :)

One bishop who is often shown beardless (or with a wispy, thin beard) is St Ioasaph of Belgorod.
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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2013, 05:36:13 PM »
I think he is somewhere from IV-VIth century. He was painted with no headgear, in phelonion not sakkos, in white omophorion with black crosses etc.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 05:37:22 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Shiny

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2013, 05:37:39 PM »
How come St. Cyril always has a funny hat?
It's Christological right?
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Offline LBK

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2013, 05:41:55 PM »
I think he is somewhere from IV-VIth century. He was painted with no headgear, in phelonion not sakkos, in white omophorion with black crosses etc.

Is there no chance of a photo? Was the fresco in a Russian/Slavic church? It would take me a long time to trawl through my archive (7000+ images).
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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2013, 05:48:52 PM »
Nothing better than that (second picture: http://www.poranny.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Site=KP&Date=20110929&Category=galeria&ArtNo=895424920&Ref=PH&Params=Itemnr=2).

There is no need for you to look for it. I am just curious.

Frescoes were made by some guys from Moscow.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 05:49:23 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline LBK

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2013, 05:54:00 PM »
Another bishop-saint (eleventh century), shown in the vestments you describe, and consistently beardless:

St Nikita of Novgorod:





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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2013, 05:58:48 PM »
He isn't portrayed as a bishop.

Okay, sorry. Was St. Philip a bishop? He looks young in some of his icons. Just a guess.

The three apostles who are shown beardless because of their youth are Sts Thomas, Philip, and John. None became bishops, and are never shown in episcopal vestments in their icons.

Several of the Seven Deacons, including Protomartyr Stephen, are shown beardless, and in diaconal vestments.

Michal, could you upload an image of the icon? IIRC there were one or two bishops who are shown beardless, but their name(s) escape me at present.

I thought beardless=unmarried in most cases, not youth, per se. St. Demetrius of Thessaloniki was 36 when martyred and St. John the Russian was in his 40s but both are portrayed beardless. Of course, St. John the Theologian is bearded in the icons in which he is writing.
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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2013, 06:01:20 PM »
How come St. Cyril always has a funny hat?

It's a peculiarity of the pope of Alexandria, and more peculiar to St. Cyril, since I've not seen icons of St. Athanasius or John the Merciful with the hood. And the hood is not always there, unlike St. Spyridon's special hat, which he always wears.
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Offline LBK

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2013, 06:12:55 PM »

I thought beardless=unmarried in most cases, not youth, per se. St. Demetrius of Thessaloniki was 36 when martyred and St. John the Russian was in his 40s but both are portrayed beardless. Of course, St. John the Theologian is bearded in the icons in which he is writing.

... but none of these were clergy. St John is perhaps the only saint who has two distinct iconographic standards - the youthful apostle, and the balding, bearded old writer of the Gospel and Revelation. :)

On beardlessness signifying unmarried:

In many cultures, including the Middle East and the Mediterranean, a boy was deemed to be a man when he was able to grow facial hair. He did not need to marry before growing a moustache or beard. This held until only the last couple of generations, when the norm of clean-shaven men became common. There are various words in these cultures which equate the lack of a mustache or beard with immaturity or being unmanly.

And, of course, Orthodox clergy are bearded, including the monastics.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 06:20:31 PM by LBK »
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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2013, 06:45:41 PM »
Another bishop-saint (eleventh century), shown in the vestments you describe, and consistently beardless:

St Nikita of Novgorod:

TY.

No one from the Council period comes to mind? I still have the impression they all 4 were somewhat close to each other.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 06:46:16 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline LBK

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2013, 07:01:45 PM »
Another bishop-saint (eleventh century), shown in the vestments you describe, and consistently beardless:

St Nikita of Novgorod:

TY.

No one from the Council period comes to mind? I still have the impression they all 4 were somewhat close to each other.

No. All the liturgist-saints were bearded, so were the Cappadocian Fathers, and every bishop-saint for the period and beyond. Some had full beards, some had more closely-trimmed ones (like St John Chrysostom), but all had beards. As far as I can recall, the first time I saw an icon of a beardless Orthodox bishop was of St Nikita of Novgorod.
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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2013, 09:23:45 PM »
How come St. Cyril always has a funny hat?

my dear Cyrillic, perhaps our teacher fancies cute hats like you do ;)
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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2013, 10:09:02 PM »
Another bishop-saint (eleventh century), shown in the vestments you describe, and consistently beardless:

St Nikita of Novgorod:

TY.

No one from the Council period comes to mind? I still have the impression they all 4 were somewhat close to each other.

No. All the liturgist-saints were bearded, so were the Cappadocian Fathers, and every bishop-saint for the period and beyond. Some had full beards, some had more closely-trimmed ones (like St John Chrysostom), but all had beards. As far as I can recall, the first time I saw an icon of a beardless Orthodox bishop was of St Nikita of Novgorod.

And St. Ignatius, Patriarch of Constantinople?
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Offline LBK

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2013, 10:26:52 PM »
Another bishop-saint (eleventh century), shown in the vestments you describe, and consistently beardless:

St Nikita of Novgorod:

TY.

No one from the Council period comes to mind? I still have the impression they all 4 were somewhat close to each other.

No. All the liturgist-saints were bearded, so were the Cappadocian Fathers, and every bishop-saint for the period and beyond. Some had full beards, some had more closely-trimmed ones (like St John Chrysostom), but all had beards. As far as I can recall, the first time I saw an icon of a beardless Orthodox bishop was of St Nikita of Novgorod.

And St. Ignatius, Patriarch of Constantinople?

The iconography for St Ignatius is inconsistent - some show him beardless, some with a small amount of facial hair. He's also from the 9th century, FWIW.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2013, 10:53:56 PM »
Another bishop-saint (eleventh century), shown in the vestments you describe, and consistently beardless:

St Nikita of Novgorod:

TY.

No one from the Council period comes to mind? I still have the impression they all 4 were somewhat close to each other.

No. All the liturgist-saints were bearded, so were the Cappadocian Fathers, and every bishop-saint for the period and beyond. Some had full beards, some had more closely-trimmed ones (like St John Chrysostom), but all had beards. As far as I can recall, the first time I saw an icon of a beardless Orthodox bishop was of St Nikita of Novgorod.

And St. Ignatius, Patriarch of Constantinople?

The iconography for St Ignatius is inconsistent - some show him beardless, some with a small amount of facial hair. He's also from the 9th century, FWIW.

Maybe he has a lovely beard now.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2013, 11:55:38 PM »
That is different.

If I had to guess...
possibly Patriarch Germanus (I) of Constantinople.... He's rarely in icons but the ones I've seen he wears blue and has no beard... 
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2013, 01:11:33 AM »
Nothing better than that (second picture: http://www.poranny.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Site=KP&Date=20110929&Category=galeria&ArtNo=895424920&Ref=PH&Params=Itemnr=2).

There is no need for you to look for it. I am just curious.

Frescoes were made by some guys from Moscow.

Michal, that is so beautiful!  Is that in Poland?  Why is the other picture more blue in color?  What does it really look like in color, lighter, or more blue?  I would love to pray in that church someday.



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Re: LBK, help!
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2013, 03:36:15 AM »
Is that in Poland?

Yes. St. Gabriel the Martyr Church in Zwierki.

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Why is the other picture more blue in color?

Different time of a day? No idea. Frankly, I know hardly nothing about taking pictures.

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What does it really look like in color, lighter, or more blue?  

The more colorful picture better corresponds the reality.

Quote
I would love to pray in that church someday.

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« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 03:36:47 AM by Michał Kalina »