Re: The Theotokos

[SolEX01]

On that note, I think the only thing that I'm still not sure about is some of the language that refers to her as though she were the great champion/defender/leader of all Christians, which I am not sure I understand. Take for example this Kontakion of the Annunciation:

"To thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of victory and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O Theotokos; but as thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride Unwedded."

In some ways though, I think the reason I am unsure of this kind of language has to do with the fact that A: I'm looking at is out of context with the rest of the Church's liturgical hymns and statements, and B: because it's about the Virgin Mary, so naturally I assume it's expressing a kind of worship, just because I've always assumed that's what's behind all veneration for Mary.

It's in context with the rest of the Church's liturgical hymns and statements.  In the past, masses of people prayed to the Virgin Mary for deliverance from enemies.  The Virgin Mary intercedes to Christ for deliverance from not our physical enemies, but our spiritual enemies as well.

But take a look at this hymn honoring Saint Raphael of Brooklyn:

"Rejoice, O Father Raphael, Adornment of the Holy Church! Thou art Champion of the true Faith, Seeker of the lost, Consolation of the oppressed, Father to orphans, and Friend of the poor, Peacemaker and Good Shepherd, Joy of all the Orthodox, Son of Antioch, Boast of America: Intercede with Christ God for us and for all who honor thee."

I realized hearing this hymn, that it didn't bother me at all, because I already know that the Orthodox Church doesn't worship him. The Church honors him, and so these statements aren't meant to indicate that he is THE champion of the faith, and THE Seeker of the lost, and THE peacemaker and THE good shephard. All it's saying is that in his life, he was a champion of the faith, a seeker of the lost, a peacemaker and a good shepherd, and so he is has all of these Christ-like qualities displayed in his life. It's not idolatry to point them out then. And so in the same way, the Theotokos is the Champion Leader, not because she has power even over Christ,

The Virgin Mary is between Christ and us.  She intercedes to her son, like the Wedding at Cana.  The Virgin Mary is akin to a high-level intermediary because she is Mother of God.

but because she showed us the way in following Him, and through Him conquered all. All of the Saints are Champion Leaders in a since, though Mary in a special and preeminent way perhaps. Bit that doesn't make her THE Champion Leader, and I think that becomes clear when you see the hymn in it's proper context with the rest of what the Church is saying. I the same way, all of the saints have, I think, an invincible might in Christ, but this of course does not make them objects of worship, and saying this about the Theotokos is not necessarily making her into a goddess. I think it's just a matter of understanding the veneration of Saints and putting such statements in proper context. But correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

The Virgin Mary is the world's first Christian.  She is a Champion Leader from that perspective.

[minasoliman]

So it's been a while since I've posted. I realized I was becoming somewhat argumentative and I think what it comes down to is the simple fact that sometimes the internet is not the best place to hash out theological matters. Forums have a way of making people argumentative, and I figured I would give it a while and just pray about my difficulties. Well I must report, I think a part of me is starting to understand the Orthodox Church's high veneration for the Theotokos, and I thought I would share what has occurred to me. I'm not at the point where I can honestly say I completely agree with it, but I think I've made a breakthrough in understating it. 

For one thing, I was reading in the so called Amplified Bible, which is claimed to help readers see some of the finer points of the original Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible that aren't always obvious in the English translations. And I was surprised to see that the passages in Luke where Mary is referred to as "blessed among women" were rendered "more blessed than any other woman", which kind of went against how I had always interpreted the phrase.

I got the thinking about it, and I realized that indeed, if Jesus is God, as I believe He is, it makes since to say that not only is His mother more blessed than any other woman, but more blessed than any man or angel or any created thing. God chose her to provide Him a womb, made her His link to humanity, was made perfectly man, yet remaining perfectly God, through her.

That in turn got me to thinking about how she could be seen as a forrunner and prototype for the whole church. She heard the Gospel proclaimed by the archangel, she believed and in humility willingly cooperated with the grace of God. God the spirit came upon her and God the Son lived within her and was born of her. She became a holy temple of God, and offered Christ to the world, even as all true Christians are called to be a temple of the Holy Spirit and to present Him to the world in their lives. Mary was the first Christian!

On that note, I think the only thing that I'm still not sure about is some of the language that refers to her as though she were the great champion/defender/leader of all Christians, which I am not sure I understand. Take for example this Kontakion of the Annunciation:

"To thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of victory and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O Theotokos; but as thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride Unwedded."

In some ways though, I think the reason I am unsure of this kind of language has to do with the fact that A: I'm looking at is out of context with the rest of the Church's liturgical hymns and statements, and B: because it's about the Virgin Mary, so naturally I assume it's expressing a kind of worship, just because I've always assumed that's what's behind all veneration for Mary. But take a look at this hymn honoring Saint Raphael of Brooklyn:

"Rejoice, O Father Raphael, Adornment of the Holy Church! Thou art Champion of the true Faith, Seeker of the lost, Consolation of the oppressed, Father to orphans, and Friend of the poor, Peacemaker and Good Shepherd, Joy of all the Orthodox, Son of Antioch, Boast of America: Intercede with Christ God for us and for all who honor thee."

I realized hearing this hymn, that it didn't bother me at all, because I already know that the Orthodox Church doesn't worship him. The Church honors him, and so these statements aren't meant to indicate that he is THE champion of the faith, and THE Seeker of the lost, and THE peacemaker and THE good shephard. All it's saying is that in his life, he was a champion of the faith, a seeker of the lost, a peacemaker and a good shepherd, and so he is has all of these Christ-like qualities displayed in his life. It's not idolatry to point them out then. And so in the same way, the Theotokos is the Champion Leader, not because she has power even over Christ, but because she showed us the way in following Him, and through Him conquered all. All of the Saints are Champion Leaders in a since, though Mary in a special and preeminent way perhaps. Bit that doesn't make her THE Champion Leader, and I think that becomes clear when you see the hymn in it's proper context with the rest of what the Church is saying. I the same way, all of the saints have, I think, an invincible might in Christ, but this of course does not make them objects of worship, and saying this about the Theotokos is not necessarily making her into a goddess. I think it's just a matter of understanding the veneration of Saints and putting such statements in proper context. But correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.     

I agree...

To add:  Where does the Theotokos and St. Raphael and all the saints get their "championship", their "leadership", their "Shepherdness", their "invincibility", their "brideness", their "consolations", their "peacemaking", their "joy", their "motherhood", their "fatherhood", etc.?  All of this comes through divine grace from Christ Himself first and foremost.  We are in fact acknowledging the deification of the saints by pointing out their qualities they have achieved from Christ, who is the source of all goodness and grace.

[TheTrisagion]

As I began my journey to Orthodoxy, I too was uncomfortable with the flowery language used in veneration of the Theotokos and the Saints.  One thing that kind of put it in perspective for me is that when many of these hymns and venerations were written, it was not unusual to address dignitaries and important people in such a manner.  Today, as an American, I would not say:  "Hail Barak, decendent in the lineage of Obama, prince of power, guardian of the poor, defender of the citizens of the realm. Thou art the most excellent king of all the earth, magnanimous and worth of our praise, give heed to our petition."  Instead, we say "Hello, Mr. President".  Our minimalist modern style is naturally uncomfortable with the ancient phraseology used in honoring those who have gone before us.  Rather than abandoning it, however, we should recognize that it is language of respect and while it may not be how we typically converse in today's modern society, it is good to show reverence to those who are entitled to it.

[Fotina02]

Feast of the Annunciation + March 25

Verily, Gabriel did come to thee, disclosing the purpose which was before the ages, hailing thee and saying, Rejoice O unseeded land! Rejoice, O unburning bush! Rejoice, O depth inaccessible to vision! Rejoice, O bridge leading to the heavens! Rejoice, O lofty ladder whom Jacob did behold! Rejoice, O jar of divine manna! Rejoice, O dissolution of the curse! Rejoice, O recall of Adam! The Lord is with thee.
Vespers of the Feast, Tone 6

Rejoice, O Theotokos, O deliverance of Adam from the curse! Rejoice, O chaste Theotokos! Rejoice, O living bush! Rejoice, O lamp! Rejoice, O throne! Rejoice, O ladder and door! Rejoice, O divine chariot! Rejoice, O bright cloud! Rejoice, O temple, O most-gilded jar! Rejoice, O mountain! Rejoice, O tabernacle and table! Rejoice, O deliverer of Eve!
Orthros of the Feast, Tone 2

St. Gregory the Wonderworker
"For of all generations she alone has risen as a virgin pure in body and in spirit; and she alone bears Him who bears all things on His word. Nor is it only the beauty of this holy one in body that calls forth our admiration, but also the innate virtue of her soul. Wherefore also the angels addressed her first with the salutation, "Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee, and no spouse of earth;" He Himself is with thee who is the Lord of sanctification, the Father of purity, the Author of incorruption, and the Bestower of liberty, the Curator of salvation, and the Steward and Provider of the true peace, who out of the virgin earth made man, and out of man's side formed Eve in addition. Even this Lord is with thee, and on the other hand also is of thee.

Come, therefore, beloved brethren, and let us take up the angelic strain, and to the utmost of our ability return the due meed of praise, saying, "Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee!" For it is thine truly to rejoice, seeing that the grace of God, as he knows, has chosen to dwell with thee-the Lord of glory dwelling with the handmaiden; "He that is fairer than the children of men " with the fair virgin; He who sanctifies all things with the undefiled. God is with thee, and with thee also is the perfect man in whom dwells the whole fullness of the Godhead.

Hail, thou that art highly favored, the fountain of the light that lightens all who believe upon Him! Hail, thou that art highly favored, the rising of the rational Sun, and the undefiled flower of Life! Hail, thou that art highly favored, the mead of sweet savour! Hail, thou that art highly favored, the ever-blooming vine, that makes glad the souls of those who honor thee!

Hail, thou that art highly favored!-the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit: for thou hast brought forth in accordance with the law of nature indeed, as it goes with us, and by the set time of practice, and yet in a way beyond nature, or rather above nature, by reason that God the Word from above took His abode in thee, and formed the new Adam in thy holy womb, and inasmuch as the Holy Ghost gave the power of conception to the holy virgin; and the reality of His body was assumed from her body.

And just as the pearl comes of the two natures, namely lightning and water, the occult signs of the sea; so also our Lord Jesus Christ proceeds, without fusion and without mutation, from the pure, and chaste, and undefiled, and holy Virgin Mary; perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, in all things equal to the Father, and in all things consubstantial with us, apart from sin. Most of the holy fathers, and patriarchs, and prophets desired to see Him, and to be eye-witnesses of Him, but did not attaint hereto. And some of them by visions beheld Him in type, and darkly; others, again, were privileged to hear the divine voice through the medium of the cloud, and were favored with sights of holy angels; but to Mary the pure virgin alone did the archangel Gabriel manifest himself luminously, bringing her the glad address, "Hail, thou that art highly favored!" And thus she received the word, and in the due time of the fulfillment according to the body's course she brought forth the priceless pearl.

Come, then, ye too, dearly beloved, and let us chant the melody which has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, "Arise, O Lord, into Thy rest; Thou, and the ark of Thy sanctuary." For the holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary."

http://www.antiochian.org/node/22550

[Nicene]

I think the better question is why is the woman who bore God into this world (IE Theotokos, Bearer of God or mother of God) not venerated in other churches? We can also extend this to the saints. Should we not recognise the good things God has used these people for? Their sacrifice and life as examples and praise them as God has praised them? For me, to ignore these saints and the theotokos (as alot of protestants ultimately do) is to Ignore what God has done in them and this is unacceptable. All of our praises to saints is ultimately to God, to this end. Just like the title theotokos is for the sake of Christ and not for the sake of the virgin Mary alone.

[lovesupreme]

I think the better question is why is the woman who bore God into this world (IE Theotokos, Bearer of God or mother of God) not venerated in other churches? We can also extend this to the saints. Should we not recognise the good things God has used these people for? Their sacrifice and life as examples and praise them as God has praised them? For me, to ignore these saints and the theotokos (as alot of protestants ultimately do) is to Ignore what God has done in them and this is unacceptable. All of our praises to saints is ultimately to God, to this end. Just like the title theotokos is for the sake of Christ and not for the sake of the virgin Mary alone.

I think most protestants would say that the people we revere as saints cannot even hear us from heaven. Also, there is the argument that any "glory" you are bestowing to another person is glory you could be bestowing to God. This, of course, ignores the teaching that we revere our beloved saints solely for the glory of God. Also, most protestants object to the idea of "intermediaries"; that, in praising a saint, we are somehow trying to curry favor with them so that they will bless us or grant us powers.

Personally, as soon as I started seeing the saints as a part of the Holy Church, our family, I stopped worrying about these things. To honor someone in the King's court is to do honor to the King Himself. Also, the Blessed Theotokos, by the grace of God, is entitled to the highest honors as she is literally the Mother of our Lord, the Queen of the Kingdom.

[katherineofdixie]

For me, to ignore these saints and the theotokos (as alot of protestants ultimately do) is to Ignore what God has done in them and this is unacceptable.

Good point.

[JamesR]

My only problem with this is that I was raised a heathen Protestant, therefore, paying so much veneration to the Theotokos and commemorating her at almost every service and prayer in the Church is very foreign to me. I wasn't indoctrinated my entire life to believe that she was so special, holy and inspirational. I don't get the reverence and fascination that people have with her. I could see it with other Saints because they have inspirational stories, but I really don't get it with the Theotokos. I don't mean to disrespect her, but all she did was bear a child. If she didn't want to do it, I'm sure God could have found some other women to do it. She didn't slay any dragons, heal tons of people or face torture and martyrdom like other Saints.

[Arachne]

The Incarnate Word was not 'a child'.

[orthonorm]

The Incarnate Word was not 'a child'.

Oh yes He was.

[orthonorm]

I wasn't indoctrinated my entire life to believe that she was so special, holy and inspirational.

I like Fr. Thom's formulation, perhaps he is quoting another, I cannot remember:

The Theotokos is not the exception, she is the rule.

[thethinker]

From my book, FWIW:


Apart from the radiance of the stars, our salvation would still be possible. Apart from the sun and the moon, our salvation would still be possible. Apart from the angels in heaven, our salvation would still be possible. Apart from the holy prophets, our salvation would still be possible. Apart from the apostles and saints, our salvation would still be possible. And yes - dare I say it - apart from the Holy Bible itself, our salvation would still be possible. But apart from the Panagia, the Theotokos, Our Lady the most Holy Virgin Maryam, our salvation would never have been possible. Because of her righteousness, virtue, and unparalleled faith, God chose her to be the vessel of His Incarnation. And unless God had been born of a woman, then our redemption could not have occurred. Therefore we glorify, honor, and venerate the Virgin St. Maryam – not because she is our Savior, but because apart from her we would have no Savior.
 
[While it is true that God in His omnipotence did not necessarily need the Virgin Mary to become a man and provide salvation, He nevertheless chose Our Lady to be the vessel of His Incarnation. Therefore, in order to fully understand the message of the Gospel, we need to understand the role of the Virgin Mary.]



Selam

Yet she did not really understand who Jesus was or why He came:

48 So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.”
 
49 And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?”

50 But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them.

Had she really known who Jesus was and why He came she would have understood His statement. And she would not have kept those things in her heart (vs. 51).

And what if, because she was driven by her anxiety, had been able to control or direct Jesus to act before the time (John 2:1-4)?

[PeterTheAleut]

The Incarnate Word was not 'a child'.

So He was born a fully grown man? And to think that His Mother gave birth without pain.

[LBK]

The Incarnate Word was not 'a child'.

So He was born a fully grown man? And to think that the Theotokos gave birth without pain.

Arachne can answer for herself, of course, but my take on what she said was that the Incarnate Word was not just any, ordinary, child, in response to James' rather dismissive statement of "all she did was bear a child".

I'm sure I'm not alone in my understanding.

[PeterTheAleut]

The Incarnate Word was not 'a child'.

So He was born a fully grown man? And to think that the Theotokos gave birth without pain.

Arachne can answer for herself, of course, but my take on what she said was that the Incarnate Word was not just any, ordinary, child, in response to James' rather dismissive statement of "all she did was bear a child".

I'm sure I'm not alone in my understanding.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I understood her to be saying. It's just that the words she actually used left her wide open to all sorts of smart alecky corrections.

[orthonorm]

The Incarnate Word was not 'a child'.

So He was born a fully grown man? And to think that the Theotokos gave birth without pain.

Arachne can answer for herself, of course, but my take on what she said was that the Incarnate Word was not just any, ordinary, child, in response to James' rather dismissive statement of "all she did was bear a child".

I'm sure I'm not alone in my understanding.

The appropriate rejoinder would have been:

She did not just bear a child.

Her statement has heretical implications. Frankly, I have no idea what Arachne means given other posts here.

And really, people do like avoid much of the humanity of Christ and His mother.

[LBK]

The appropriate rejoinder would have been:

She did not just bear a child.

You fall short. The appropriate rejoinder would have been she did not bear just any child.

Frankly, I have no idea what Arachne means given other posts here.

Perhaps you have trouble understanding her because she's British. 

[PeterTheAleut]

The appropriate rejoinder would have been:

She did not just bear a child.

You fall short. The appropriate rejoinder would have been she did not bear just any child.

Actually, you're both right. Mary did much more with her life than just bear a child, and the Child she bore was not just any child.

[Arachne]

Well, smart alecks must have their fix from time to time as well.

But really, 'all she did was bear a child' is a downright insulting thing even for an ordinary mother of an ordinary child, let alone the extraordinary Mother of the Incarnate Word.

And James? The other day you were going, like:

You mean like when we act like we don't think she's a goddess? Gasp! How horrible!!

I don't think that's treating her like a goddess; I think the problem lies in culture. America is very, eh, what's the word? Lazy and casual. The most respect we show to someone is a handshake. So when you see others showing respect to someone in a different way, you immediately assume worship.

Did you ever think about how it sounds to us when you call her all-holy, most blessed and glorious virgin pure, immaculate lady, queen of all, more radiant than the rays of sun and higher than the heavens, superior to angels, brighter than the firmament and purer than the sun's light, and so on and so forth?

It sounds pretty nice, thank you very much. Much better than when Protestants just disrespect her by casually saying "mary" or going to great lengths to minimalize her role in the Incarnation because of rabid anti-Catholicism.

Make up your mind, dude.

[Andrew21091]

I don't mean to disrespect her, but all she did was bear a child.

Just a child?



She carried Our Lord incarnate in her womb for nine months. How does that not make her important?

[Andrew21091]

My only problem with this is that I was raised a heathen Protestant, therefore, paying so much veneration to the Theotokos and commemorating her at almost every service and prayer in the Church is very foreign to me. I wasn't indoctrinated my entire life to believe that she was so special, holy and inspirational. I don't get the reverence and fascination that people have with her. I could see it with other Saints because they have inspirational stories, but I really don't get it with the Theotokos. I don't mean to disrespect her, but all she did was bear a child. If she didn't want to do it, I'm sure God could have found some other women to do it. She didn't slay any dragons, heal tons of people or face torture and martyrdom like other Saints.

I've seen your thread about how you told your mom that you were interesting in becoming a monastic. But if you have a problem with devotion to the Mother of God, then perhaps a monastery isn't for you. In my experience, monastics have a very strong devotion to the Mother of God. They not only commemorate her during the services, but also read canons and Akathists daily to her. When I stayed at one monastery, the abbot told me how important it was to seek her help and he even recommended singing the Akathist to her every day. Not to mention, the Holy Mountain is dedicated to the Mother of God; referring to it as the Garden of the Panagia ('Most Holy', an affectionate title that many Greeks refer to Mary as). She holds a very special place in the lives of Orthodox monastics. Just look and the lives of some great monastic Saints such as St. Seraphim of Sarov, or the Optina Elders who all had a very strong devotion to the Mother of God.

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