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Author Topic: Re: The Theotokos  (Read 9222 times) Average Rating: 0
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primuspilus
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« Reply #225 on: May 29, 2013, 08:12:18 AM »

Quote
Matthew 13:
53 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, that He departed from there.  54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?  55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses,[h] Simon, and Judas?  56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”  57 So they were offended at Him.

Matthew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.  47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”  49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!  50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you wish to deny what the bible says?
The word for brother is the same one used for Lot and Abraham. So, are they brothers as well? What about David and Jonathan? Same word.

Quote
We are not told what his reason was
Yes, we are. You just deny reality. Such a thing would be inconceivable if Jesus had blood brothers.

PP
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 08:12:42 AM by primuspilus » Logged

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« Reply #226 on: May 29, 2013, 08:16:28 AM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?
From bible note:
Literal translation is:"Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven."
God does not forgive people's sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

If man or woman has the power to forgive sins then Christ did not need to die.

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« Reply #227 on: May 29, 2013, 08:21:22 AM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?
From bible note:
Literal translation is:"Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven."
God does not forgive people's sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

If man or woman has the power to forgive sins then Christ did not need to die.



It's funny that a Bible note can infallibly interpret Scripture, but the Church can't.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #228 on: May 29, 2013, 08:23:58 AM »

Quote
Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven
I fail to understand how you use this for an argument. Nobody forces God to forgive anyone. Its working in cooperation with His will. I fail to understand your argument here.

BTW Im still waiting for you to address the comment from before about Christ's "brothers". The same word is used for David and Jonathan and Abraham and Lot. Were they brothers as well? Or is this more
of your "semantics"?

PP
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« Reply #229 on: May 29, 2013, 08:26:54 AM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?
From bible note:
Literal translation is:"Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven."
God does not forgive people's sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

If man or woman has the power to forgive sins then Christ did not need to die.


Then what of the Lord's Prayer? And forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us .... Was Christ lying?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 08:27:21 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #230 on: May 29, 2013, 08:27:27 AM »

We are not told what his reason was.

We are not told because anyone with two brain cells to rub together can figure out that a good son would not leave his mother alone in the world. Roll Eyes

What you are clearly told is that he had brothers and sisters.

Who are nowhere referred to as Mary's sons and daughters. If they were, you'd have found the reference already. Tongue

I do not wish to deny the Bible's words. It's only your nonsensical twisting of them that I deny.
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« Reply #231 on: May 29, 2013, 08:47:45 AM »

I won´t disturb you anymore Rachel, please forgive me if I did.

I didn´t get the answer I expected, and I´ve had enough of theologyclasses from persons who want to reject that and be strictly scriptural. When the same standard is used, you burst out into everything but not scripture. Take care, all the questions I asked can be answered within the church, for the persons who wants them.

I wish you very well, please write to me if I, a great sinner, could help you in any way my dear sister. For example giving answer on abortion, masturbation and John 20:23, both on scriptural basis, and on what has always been taught.

Or else I ask for forgiveness dear friend, if you believe that you can forgive them, if I´ve offended you in any way.
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« Reply #232 on: May 29, 2013, 09:08:49 AM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?
From bible note:
Literal translation is:"Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven."
God does not forgive people's sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

If man or woman has the power to forgive sins then Christ did not need to die.



It's funny that a Bible note can infallibly interpret Scripture, but the Church can't.
 Roll Eyes

THIS!!!
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« Reply #233 on: May 29, 2013, 10:36:00 AM »

Rachel, if you don't mind, I would like to ask you a question. Do you know what the word "pray" means?

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« Reply #234 on: May 29, 2013, 12:01:11 PM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?
From bible note:
Literal translation is:"Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven."
God does not forgive people's sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

If man or woman has the power to forgive sins then Christ did not need to die.


Rachel, there's something odd about this verse that I don't understand, and I hope you can help me.  What's the point of giving the Apostles the power to forgive and retain sins if it's already been forgiven or retained by God. It seems here Christ is just waisting His breathe.
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« Reply #235 on: May 29, 2013, 12:24:45 PM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?
From bible note:
Literal translation is:"Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven."
God does not forgive people's sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

If man or woman has the power to forgive sins then Christ did not need to die.



This is why Orthodox Christians believe that Sola Scriptura doesn't exist.  Martin Luther, who was the proponent of Sola Scriptura, went on to the write many books explaining what the Scriptura meant and thus, negating his own teaching.  In fact, every single pastor who preaches Sola Scriptura contradicts themselves by going on to write books explaining what the Bible says. 

You see, Rachel, when the tomb stone was rolled away, the Holy Bible wasn't laying where Jesus had been; it was written, compiled and given to us by The Church and it is The Church that explains what it means.
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« Reply #236 on: May 29, 2013, 12:40:42 PM »

Forgive me if this has already been covered, Rachel, but when we pray that Mary intercede for us, it's the same as when we ask a family member to pray for us. 
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« Reply #237 on: May 29, 2013, 01:02:22 PM »

Forgive me if this has already been covered, Rachel, but when we pray that Mary intercede for us, it's the same as when we ask a family member to pray for us. 

You don't require forgiveness, and according to some, we're incapable of offering it even if you did.  You'd do well to join the discussion forum where God posts and ask him about it.   

Many of these things have already been covered in the six pages of this thread, but not everyone is interested in discussion, exchange, learning.  Some are just interested in repeating talking points without engaging anything. 
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« Reply #238 on: May 29, 2013, 01:52:31 PM »

Quote
Matthew 13:
53 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, that He departed from there.  54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?  55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses,[h] Simon, and Judas?  56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”  57 So they were offended at Him.

Matthew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.  47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”  49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!  50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you wish to deny what the bible says?
The word for brother is the same one used for Lot and Abraham. So, are they brothers as well? What about David and Jonathan? Same word.
Read the context. From this it is clear that blood brothers is what is meant.

Quote
We are not told what his reason was
Quote
Yes, we are. You just deny reality. Such a thing would be inconceivable if Jesus had blood brothers.

Not inconceivable at all.

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« Reply #239 on: May 29, 2013, 02:00:57 PM »


Then what of the Lord's Prayer? And forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us .... Was Christ lying?

Me personally forgiving someone who has wronged me does not equate to putting something right between that person and God.
We are told that the wages of sin is death. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
If mankind has the power to forgive sin then Christ need not have died.
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« Reply #240 on: May 29, 2013, 02:09:14 PM »

Only God forgives sin, but Christ also said:  "Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain they are retained."
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« Reply #241 on: May 29, 2013, 02:10:38 PM »


Then what of the Lord's Prayer? And forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us .... Was Christ lying?

Me personally forgiving someone who has wronged me does not equate to putting something right between that person and God.

"If you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to him; then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:23)

His relationship to Abel was the problem with Cain's sacrifice. Putting things right between ourselves is essential for being right with God: "for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?" (1 John 4:20)

We are told that the wages of sin is death. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
If mankind has the power to forgive sin then Christ need not have died.

"Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church." (Colossians 1:24)
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« Reply #242 on: May 29, 2013, 02:13:50 PM »

We are not told what his reason was.

We are not told because anyone with two brain cells to rub together can figure out that a good son would not leave his mother alone in the world. Roll Eyes

I have the amount of brain cells God gave me Arachne. But please feel free to continue personal insults.

 
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« Reply #243 on: May 29, 2013, 02:22:21 PM »

We are not told what his reason was.

We are not told because anyone with two brain cells to rub together can figure out that a good son would not leave his mother alone in the world. Roll Eyes

I have the amount of brain cells God gave me Arachne. But please feel free to continue personal insults.

Not everything here is about you. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #244 on: May 29, 2013, 02:40:59 PM »

Quote
Matthew 13:
53 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, that He departed from there.  54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?  55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses,[h] Simon, and Judas?  56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”  57 So they were offended at Him.

Matthew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.  47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”  49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!  50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you wish to deny what the bible says?
The word for brother is the same one used for Lot and Abraham. So, are they brothers as well? What about David and Jonathan? Same word.
Read the context. From this it is clear that blood brothers is what is meant.
No. It is not clear. But it is clearly what you want it to mean. The same people who called James, Joses, Simon, and Judas his brothers and some unnamed women as sisters also called Jesus the carpenter's son. Are you insisting on a biological relationship there, too?
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« Reply #245 on: May 29, 2013, 02:55:35 PM »

We are told that the wages of sin is death. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
If mankind has the power to forgive sin then Christ need not have died.

This might be lacking in your Bible - the prayer of Azaria, one of the three children in the fiery furnace, who prays that their sacrifice be received as atonement for the sins of the people:

Quote from: Daniel 3:37-40
For we are reduced, O Lord, beyond any other nation, brought low everywhere in the world this day because of our sins. We have in our day no prince, prophet, or leader, no burnt offering, sacrifice, oblation, or incense, no place to offer first fruits, to find favor with you. But with contrite heart and humble spirit let us be received; as though it were burnt offerings of rams and bulls, or tens of thousands of fat lambs, so let our sacrifice be in your presence today and find favour before you.
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« Reply #246 on: May 29, 2013, 06:48:38 PM »

Quote
Read the context. From this it is clear that blood brothers is what is meant
Its clear? What bible verse did you get that from? Remember, everything must come from the scriptures, so you better have an AWESOME concordance.

Its only clear to you because you have a narrative you're trying to push. Nowhere is it clear that blood brothers are what meant. Scholars from your own traditions have backed that up....on the record. Including one who invented this sola scriptura nonsense in the first place (Luther), Latimer and even Calvin said that denying the perpetual virginity is impious speculation, and noted the exact verses that you did stating that it cant be used as sufficient evidence. So, who is being led by the Holy Spirit? Luther, Calvin, et al? Or you, and your private interpretation, using a translated scripture with zero knowledge about the societies and language that the scriptures were written in?

Or is it the Church, whose teachings were handed down by the apostles themselves?


I'd also love to get your opinion on the Eucharist (communion).

PP
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« Reply #247 on: May 29, 2013, 07:22:56 PM »

Quote
Matthew 13:
53 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, that He departed from there.  54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?  55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses,[h] Simon, and Judas?  56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”  57 So they were offended at Him.

Matthew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.  47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”  49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!  50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you wish to deny what the bible says?
The word for brother is the same one used for Lot and Abraham. So, are they brothers as well? What about David and Jonathan? Same word.
Read the context. From this it is clear that blood brothers is what is meant.
No. It is not clear. But it is clearly what you want it to mean. The same people who called James, Joses, Simon, and Judas his brothers and some unnamed women as sisters also called Jesus the carpenter's son. Are you insisting on a biological relationship there, too?

Indeed. I note that Rachel has yet to address my related post on Christ's paternity, and the biblical use of the word brethren.

How about it, Rachel?
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« Reply #248 on: May 29, 2013, 07:26:50 PM »

Quote
Matthew 13:
53 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, that He departed from there.  54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?  55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses,[h] Simon, and Judas?  56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”  57 So they were offended at Him.

Matthew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.  47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”  49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!  50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you wish to deny what the bible says?
The word for brother is the same one used for Lot and Abraham. So, are they brothers as well? What about David and Jonathan? Same word.
Read the context. From this it is clear that blood brothers is what is meant.
No. It is not clear. But it is clearly what you want it to mean. The same people who called James, Joses, Simon, and Judas his brothers and some unnamed women as sisters also called Jesus the carpenter's son. Are you insisting on a biological relationship there, too?

Indeed. I note that Rachel has yet to address my related post on Christ's paternity, and the biblical use of the word brethren.

How about it, Rachel?

Oh stop being hung up on technicalities!  Tongue
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« Reply #249 on: May 29, 2013, 07:52:13 PM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?
From bible note:
Literal translation is:"Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven."
God does not forgive people's sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

If man or woman has the power to forgive sins then Christ did not need to die.


Rachel, there's something odd about this verse that I don't understand, and I hope you can help me.  What's the point of giving the Apostles the power to forgive and retain sins if it's already been forgiven or retained by God. It seems here Christ is just waisting His breathe.

I just wanted to add what I find really odd with the verses.  The verse on forgiveness for instance for any general person states:

Quote from: Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Very clearly, when there's a personal matter with a neighbor or brother or sister, I am called to unceasingly be forgiving.

But then Christ seems to say something else to Peter earlier:

Quote from: Matthew 16
17 Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

How blasphemous of Christ to allow Peter the power to bind and loose things in heaven!!!!

And then the nerve of our Lord to do the same for the rest of the disciples:

Quote from: John 20
Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.

WO! Let me pause there.  The Disciples have taken Christ's place!!!!  Now, they're going to do all those things Christ did.  Do miracles, forgive sins ("Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven")...or GASP...even "SAVE" PEOPLE:

Quote from: Romans 11
"I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them."

Quote from: Jude
save others by snatching them from the fire

How dare the Bible allow mere human beings to actually administer forgiveness of sins and salvation to people!!!!
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« Reply #250 on: June 02, 2013, 08:18:33 AM »


  In fact, every single pastor who preaches Sola Scriptura contradicts themselves by going on to write books explaining what the Bible says. 
Not so. If one writes a book explaining scripture that is not synonymous with writing a book with new doctrine and then claiming it as God's word.

Quote
You see, Rachel, when the tomb stone was rolled away, the Holy Bible wasn't laying where Jesus had been;
Quite so.
 
Quote
it was written, compiled and given to us by The Church and it is The Church that explains what it means.
Not so. God's word says it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that he will lead us into all truth.
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« Reply #251 on: June 02, 2013, 08:20:26 AM »

We are not told what his reason was.

We are not told because anyone with two brain cells to rub together can figure out that a good son would not leave his mother alone in the world. Roll Eyes

I have the amount of brain cells God gave me Arachne. But please feel free to continue personal insults.

Not everything here is about you. Roll Eyes

Nothing here is about me, Arachne. It is all about Jesus, crucified and risen.
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« Reply #252 on: June 02, 2013, 08:32:11 AM »


 it was written, compiled and given to us by The Church and it is The Church that explains what it means.
Not so. God's word says it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that he will lead us into all truth.

It is the Holy Spirit, not a book, which will lead us into all truth. The book known as the Bible is not equal or - gasp! - greater in knowledge and wisdom than the Holy Spirit who, after all, is God. Sola scriptura elevates the Bible to be equal to God.
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« Reply #253 on: June 02, 2013, 09:31:38 AM »


 it was written, compiled and given to us by The Church and it is The Church that explains what it means.
Not so. God's word says it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that he will lead us into all truth.

It is the Holy Spirit, not a book, which will lead us into all truth. The book known as the Bible is not equal or - gasp! - greater in knowledge and wisdom than the Holy Spirit who, after all, is God. Sola scriptura elevates the Bible to be equal to God.

The bible is not God but it is his word to us inspired by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


You have scant regard for this. You have added traditions which are in direct contradiction to scripture which you elevate above God's word.

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« Reply #254 on: June 02, 2013, 10:17:25 AM »


 it was written, compiled and given to us by The Church and it is The Church that explains what it means.
Not so. God's word says it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that he will lead us into all truth.

It is the Holy Spirit, not a book, which will lead us into all truth. The book known as the Bible is not equal or - gasp! - greater in knowledge and wisdom than the Holy Spirit who, after all, is God. Sola scriptura elevates the Bible to be equal to God.

The bible is not God but it is his word to us inspired by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


You have scant regard for this. You have added traditions which are in direct contradiction to scripture which you elevate above God's word.



No, we just interpret scriptures in another way than you do.
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« Reply #255 on: June 02, 2013, 10:44:52 AM »

By the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #256 on: June 02, 2013, 01:20:54 PM »

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn.%201:1-20&version=DRA

This is what the Word of God is:

Quote
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.

9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
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« Reply #257 on: June 02, 2013, 02:43:20 PM »


 it was written, compiled and given to us by The Church and it is The Church that explains what it means.
Not so. God's word says it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that he will lead us into all truth.

It is the Holy Spirit, not a book, which will lead us into all truth. The book known as the Bible is not equal or - gasp! - greater in knowledge and wisdom than the Holy Spirit who, after all, is God. Sola scriptura elevates the Bible to be equal to God.

The bible is not God but it is his word to us inspired by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


You have scant regard for this. You have added traditions which are in direct contradiction to scripture which you elevate above God's word.



Just and FYI, we believe this verse.  We take it to heart and accept it for what it says, NOT WHAT YOU TRY TO READ INTO IT.  There is no part of that verse that we disagree with in the slightest.
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« Reply #258 on: June 02, 2013, 03:04:51 PM »

Quote
Matthew 13:
53 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, that He departed from there.  54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?  55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses,[h] Simon, and Judas?  56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”  57 So they were offended at Him.

Matthew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.  47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”  49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!  50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you wish to deny what the bible says?
The word for brother is the same one used for Lot and Abraham. So, are they brothers as well? What about David and Jonathan? Same word.
Read the context. From this it is clear that blood brothers is what is meant.
No. It is not clear. But it is clearly what you want it to mean. The same people who called James, Joses, Simon, and Judas his brothers and some unnamed women as sisters also called Jesus the carpenter's son. Are you insisting on a biological relationship there, too?
Rachel, this is a serious question. Please answer. Or simply let us believe that you call Joseph the biological father of Jesus.
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« Reply #259 on: June 03, 2013, 07:36:41 AM »

queen?
our hope?
our intercessor?
our protectress?
Where does it say:
that she sees our distress?
that she can help us?
that she can feed us?
that she knows our offences?
that she can forgive sins?
that we have no other help but her?
that we have no other intercessor?
that we have no comforter than her?
That she can guard and protect us?



I am interested in it as well. I can understand why theotokos is our queen, our hope, our intercessor,our protectress, and how she see our distress, help us, know our offence, forgive sin and guard and protect us. However, I  have some questions  on ‘ feed us, no other help, no other intercessor but theokotos  no comforter than her’


Queen: Theotokos is called as Queen because  She is Mother of Jesus ( our King ).

Hope:THeotokos is called as our hope because she gave the birth of our God. This is definitely a miracle. God perform this great miracles and give hope to the world through her life.Ultimately, We give all glory to God by honoring Theotokos as our hope.

Intercessor: According to Scriptures, everybody in the Christ will never die. According to the Book of Revelation, the dead who is in Christ is still alive and can still pray to God.

Protectress, help us, guard us, protect us: Theotokos can protect, help and guard us through her prayesr, just like our brothers /sisters/ parents/ friends on earth help and protect us through their prayers.

sees our distress, know our offence: Theotokos is still alive in Christ. Thus, she can see our stress. Just like brothers /sisters/ parents/ friends on earth can also see our distress and our offence. Besides, God can reveal her our distress and our offence when she is praying for us.

Forgive our sin: Gospel of St. Matthew and St John also tell us that the Apostles can also have the power to forgive sin, but not only God. And St James also ask us to pray with each other and so our sins can be forgiven.





---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do Orthodox understand that Theotokos is feeding us? How Orthodox understand Theotokos is our comforter?
And how Orthodoxy understand that there is no other help, no other intercessor but theotokos ? Isn’t Jesus, the Saints , the brother and sisters in heaven and on earth, angels also intercede for us, help us through their prayers?
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« Reply #260 on: June 03, 2013, 07:56:05 AM »

Quote
Matthew 13:
53 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, that He departed from there.  54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?  55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses,[h] Simon, and Judas?  56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”  57 So they were offended at Him.

Matthew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.  47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”  49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!  50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you wish to deny what the bible says?
The word for brother is the same one used for Lot and Abraham. So, are they brothers as well? What about David and Jonathan? Same word.
Read the context. From this it is clear that blood brothers is what is meant.
No. It is not clear. But it is clearly what you want it to mean. The same people who called James, Joses, Simon, and Judas his brothers and some unnamed women as sisters also called Jesus the carpenter's son. Are you insisting on a biological relationship there, too?
Rachel, this is a serious question. Please answer. Or simply let us believe that you call Joseph the biological father of Jesus.
Must be just more "semantics......"

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« Reply #261 on: June 03, 2013, 09:41:25 AM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?
From bible note:
Literal translation is:"Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven."
God does not forgive people's sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

If man or woman has the power to forgive sins then Christ did not need to die.



This is why Orthodox Christians believe that Sola Scriptura doesn't exist.  Martin Luther, who was the proponent of Sola Scriptura, went on to the write many books explaining what the Scriptura meant and thus, negating his own teaching.  In fact, every single pastor who preaches Sola Scriptura contradicts themselves by going on to write books explaining what the Bible says. 

That would not be sola scriptura.

Luther exegeting Scripture and providing a theoretical framework for his hermeneutical approach hardly violates his understanding of sola scriptura. Perhaps it violates your understanding. Perhaps the understanding of the three fingered maniac I had as a preacher as a kid. Nevertheless sola scriptura is rarely what anyone colors it to be around here.

Isa's hilarious Luther joke aside.
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« Reply #262 on: June 03, 2013, 09:45:25 AM »


 it was written, compiled and given to us by The Church and it is The Church that explains what it means.
Not so. God's word says it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that he will lead us into all truth.

It is the Holy Spirit, not a book, which will lead us into all truth. The book known as the Bible is not equal or - gasp! - greater in knowledge and wisdom than the Holy Spirit who, after all, is God. Sola scriptura elevates the Bible to be equal to God.

The bible is not God but it is his word to us inspired by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


You have scant regard for this. You have added traditions which are in direct contradiction to scripture which you elevate above God's word.

I had eggs for breakfast this morning.

If you heard from someone else that I also had bacon and I indeed did have bacon but did not tell you, does that render the witness incorrect?

This all turns frankly on a incredibly different understanding on your part of what the Orthodox mean when they talk about the Church. You don't seem to care to understand that, which is fine, but until you do, you will be blowing in the wind.

In short, Rachel, your apologetics here are weaker than your opponents who might be correct if for the wrong reasons.
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« Reply #263 on: June 03, 2013, 01:41:05 PM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?
From bible note:
Literal translation is:"Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven."
God does not forgive people's sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

If man or woman has the power to forgive sins then Christ did not need to die.



This is why Orthodox Christians believe that Sola Scriptura doesn't exist.  Martin Luther, who was the proponent of Sola Scriptura, went on to the write many books explaining what the Scriptura meant and thus, negating his own teaching.  In fact, every single pastor who preaches Sola Scriptura contradicts themselves by going on to write books explaining what the Bible says. 

 Nevertheless sola scriptura is rarely what anyone colors it to be around here.



 Why don't you tell us what you think it means?  You can PM your understanding if you'd like.
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« Reply #264 on: June 03, 2013, 03:42:34 PM »

Quote
How do Orthodox understand that Theotokos is feeding us? How Orthodox understand Theotokos is our comforter?
And how Orthodoxy understand that there is no other help, no other intercessor but theotokos ? Isn’t Jesus, the Saints , the brother and sisters in heaven and on earth, angels also intercede for us, help us through their prayers?

Wonderful question dear brother Walter, hope I can give a answer that will provide some basis on the deep and humble veneration of the Theotokos. Forgive me please,  a sinner, if something is unclear.

To understand the depth and affection of our blessed Lady towards Christ we must understand, through the lens of orthodoxy, why this even is a necessary thing to us sinners. Through the eyes of Christ, we may ask for what little reason he has to pour out his grace on us? One might answer, pure love. But in the end we break our part of being loving towards God, in words, thoughts or deeds. Time upon time we engrave the response from God in a way that clearly informs God that maybe we don´t even want Christ to be our intercessor between us and God, nor the one feeding us with the life giving bread. We maybe don´t say it explicitly, but our hearts can unintentionally give that message to God. In those times, God keeps on pouring out more of his mercy, his love, his truth and peace unto our hearts. For what reason one may ask? As we here on earth through many situations don´t even want to receive the light of God upon us.

The deep humility, love and prayer from all our Saints, brothers and sisters, and finally The blessed Theotokos are then the last source for God to look upon, to give us what they always keep on asking for. In that sense, with regards to the position of our Lady, one can understand why Gods grace is keeping on coming when our own will don´t even want it. It´s because She is feeding, helping and interceding through her prayers when we intrinsically reject Christ from doing that. But his grace grows strong, loving and mighty in the light of all the prayers offered on our behalf.

When Christ turned water into wine his time was not yet. But rather than the guests begging Christ with the request the people had, they asked the Blessed Mother, her loving request to her Son was something they in cowardice didn´t ask for themselves, therefore rejecting the grace that Christ otherwise would offer them. But God answered the humble request of our Lady, because she gave all her effort to let Christ decide upon her will, not theirs. He answered by changing that which was not yet his time, to a given grace by God through the miracle of Christ.

To understand the impact our Blessed Theotokos has, we must first realize that we´ve rejected Christ in thousands of ways, not always intentionally. We´ve said NO to Christ, while the Theotokos asks as a Mother to Christ, please grant them your truth, not because they will so, but because I will.

That´s why many of the prayers in the orthodox church ends with.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, through the prayers of our Blessed Theotokos and your holy Saints, save me, a sinner.

Sometimes we ask for something that we deep inside don´t really want. Then the Theotokos and all the Saints gives us what we in the first placed asked for, through their constant praying.

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« Reply #265 on: June 03, 2013, 03:43:18 PM »

Please forgive me, a sinner, if I made it unclear brother.
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« Reply #266 on: June 03, 2013, 03:47:56 PM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?
From bible note:
Literal translation is:"Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven."
God does not forgive people's sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

If man or woman has the power to forgive sins then Christ did not need to die.



This is why Orthodox Christians believe that Sola Scriptura doesn't exist.  Martin Luther, who was the proponent of Sola Scriptura, went on to the write many books explaining what the Scriptura meant and thus, negating his own teaching.  In fact, every single pastor who preaches Sola Scriptura contradicts themselves by going on to write books explaining what the Bible says.  

 Nevertheless sola scriptura is rarely what anyone colors it to be around here.



 Why don't you tell us what you think it means?  You can PM your understanding if you'd like.

It's really not that difficult. Read Luther. Heck the wiki might be fine for a pedestrian. It doesn't mean nothing exists within understanding outside of the text of Scripture. That is stupid. Dumb. And foolish.

Luther might have been as foolish as many of us, but no one here is giving him a run in the intelligence department.

Heck many RCs and guess what . . . Orthodox find themselves in agreement with Luther when it comes to his exegetical system. It is a matter of proportion, which I am going to keep typing, since most around here who type the loudest seem to lack it.

What does the wiki say just for fun (first sentences of the page):

Quote
Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Consequently, sola scriptura demands only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. However, sola scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

You start mixing that with the other solas and the ones folks don't see fit to mention and all the sudden you have a sane and reasonable and caring approach to reading. Really Luther ain't doing a lot hermeneutically that St. Augustine didn't flesh out.
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« Reply #267 on: June 03, 2013, 03:59:18 PM »

The use of "no other" as mentioned earlier is hyperbole.  It's a knee-jerk expression of love to someone you are indebted to.  If a pastor brings you to Christ, that pastor "fed you", and "no other" comforter or intercessor would have brought you to Christ the way he did.

But of course hyperbole is one thing, and dry, non-poetic, straightforward, and logical phrases are another.

Nevertheless, you can imagine, NO OTHER person was chosen in whose flesh was used for the incarnation than her.  She is truly indeed the "No Other", in whom Christ confided for the salvation of the world.  Through her, we received Christ and the plan of salvation being paved by "No Other" forerunner than John, "No Other" evangelizers than the Apostles and their successors, each one by their name, who though tools, we all as Christians are forever indebted to, with the first and foremost "No Other" being the Virgin Mother of God herself.  We thank her and all the saints for bring us Christ our Savior.

There is of course No Other ultimate source of grace and salvation for all mankind than Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, who chose No Other woman than Mary to be the vehicle in which the grace and salvation may be brought to all mankind.

The Only-Begotten Son of God, who is No Other than God Himself became man, that each and everyone of us become No Other for others.  If there's no veneration of saints, then Christ would be in trouble of laziness for not evangelizing the world Himself, rather then relying on the flesh and motherly kindness of Mary and the witnessing of John the Forerunner and the Apostles.
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« Reply #268 on: June 04, 2013, 04:42:53 AM »

Rachel,

I feel as is someone should point this out to you "God's Word" or the bible came out of Holy Tradition, the church had already been around for almost 400 years when the books where codified by the council of Hippo and the Tradition of the church, and it's bishops decided which books should be included.
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« Reply #269 on: June 04, 2013, 09:54:07 AM »

Orthonorm,

I agree with you about your view on sola scriptura, but the issue is, Luther violated his own understanding of it by editing scripture (and I mean more than removing books, which is in-and-of itself a violation). He changed some of the words in more than a few verses (mainly in the new testament). Although I personally believe he did it for valid reasons, it doesnt change the fact that he did it, and violated his own understanding of it.

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