OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 22, 2014, 06:36:32 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Re: The Theotokos  (Read 10743 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,604



« Reply #270 on: June 04, 2013, 11:47:13 AM »

Orthonorm,

I agree with you about your view on sola scriptura, but the issue is, Luther violated his own understanding of it by editing scripture (and I mean more than removing books, which is in-and-of itself a violation). He changed some of the words in more than a few verses (mainly in the new testament). Although I personally believe he did it for valid reasons, it doesnt change the fact that he did it, and violated his own understanding of it.

PP

I didn't say he wasn't a fool. Still, I came to like the guy late in life, outside any religious context.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,301



« Reply #271 on: June 04, 2013, 11:50:17 AM »

Orthonorm,

I agree with you about your view on sola scriptura, but the issue is, Luther violated his own understanding of it by editing scripture (and I mean more than removing books, which is in-and-of itself a violation). He changed some of the words in more than a few verses (mainly in the new testament). Although I personally believe he did it for valid reasons, it doesnt change the fact that he did it, and violated his own understanding of it.

PP

I didn't say he wasn't a fool. Still, I came to like the guy late in life, outside any religious context.

Plus, he was one of the best R&B artists of all time.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,604



« Reply #272 on: June 04, 2013, 11:54:49 AM »

Orthonorm,

I agree with you about your view on sola scriptura, but the issue is, Luther violated his own understanding of it by editing scripture (and I mean more than removing books, which is in-and-of itself a violation). He changed some of the words in more than a few verses (mainly in the new testament). Although I personally believe he did it for valid reasons, it doesnt change the fact that he did it, and violated his own understanding of it.

PP

I didn't say he wasn't a fool. Still, I came to like the guy late in life, outside any religious context.

Plus, he was one of the best R&B artists of all time.

You've no idea how many first dances I had hear that guy sing over.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #273 on: June 04, 2013, 12:10:58 PM »

Orthonorm,

I agree with you about your view on sola scriptura, but the issue is, Luther violated his own understanding of it by editing scripture (and I mean more than removing books, which is in-and-of itself a violation). He changed some of the words in more than a few verses (mainly in the new testament). Although I personally believe he did it for valid reasons, it doesnt change the fact that he did it, and violated his own understanding of it.

PP

I didn't say he wasn't a fool. Still, I came to like the guy late in life, outside any religious context.

Plus, he was one of the best R&B artists of all time.
honestly getting named checked in Slow Jamz, is the best thing he ever did
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #274 on: June 04, 2013, 01:11:58 PM »

Quote

 Why don't you tell us what you think it means?  

It's really not that difficult. Read Luther. Heck the wiki might be fine for a pedestrian. It doesn't mean nothing exists within understanding outside of the text of Scripture. That is stupid. Dumb. And foolish.

Luther might have been as foolish as many of us, but no one here is giving him a run in the intelligence department.

Heck many RCs and guess what . . . Orthodox find themselves in agreement with Luther when it comes to his exegetical system. It is a matter of proportion, which I am going to keep typing, since most around here who type the loudest seem to lack it.

What does the wiki say just for fun (first sentences of the page):

Quote
Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Consequently, sola scriptura demands only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. However, sola scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura



 Well, shucks.  I guess my understanding has been wrong all along.  My apologies to Rachel, Orthonorm, etc...  If that wiki quote is what Luther taught, then I reckon he might have been right.  Still, it's the Church that gave us the Scriptures and the meaning of them.  Plus, I think  Primuspilus had some good points.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,301



« Reply #275 on: June 04, 2013, 01:20:19 PM »

Quote

 Why don't you tell us what you think it means?  

It's really not that difficult. Read Luther. Heck the wiki might be fine for a pedestrian. It doesn't mean nothing exists within understanding outside of the text of Scripture. That is stupid. Dumb. And foolish.

Luther might have been as foolish as many of us, but no one here is giving him a run in the intelligence department.

Heck many RCs and guess what . . . Orthodox find themselves in agreement with Luther when it comes to his exegetical system. It is a matter of proportion, which I am going to keep typing, since most around here who type the loudest seem to lack it.

What does the wiki say just for fun (first sentences of the page):

Quote
Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Consequently, sola scriptura demands only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. However, sola scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura



 Well, shucks.  I guess my understanding has been wrong all along.  My apologies to Rachel, Orthonorm, etc...  If that wiki quote is what Luther taught, then I reckon he might have been right.  Still, it's the Church that gave us the Scriptures and the meaning of them.  Plus, I think  Primuspilus had some good points.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but one major deficiency in Sola Scriptura is the belief of sufficiency which states (and I quote from the much esteemed wikipedia article): The Bible contains everything that one needs to know in order to obtain salvation and to live a Christian life.[29] There are no deficiencies in Scripture that need to be filled with by tradition

There are indeed topics that are not addressed in Scripture that tradition advises us of.  I wouldn't call them "deficiencies" because the Bible was never meant to be a systematic theology textbook.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,604



« Reply #276 on: June 04, 2013, 02:03:24 PM »

Quote

 Why don't you tell us what you think it means?  

It's really not that difficult. Read Luther. Heck the wiki might be fine for a pedestrian. It doesn't mean nothing exists within understanding outside of the text of Scripture. That is stupid. Dumb. And foolish.

Luther might have been as foolish as many of us, but no one here is giving him a run in the intelligence department.

Heck many RCs and guess what . . . Orthodox find themselves in agreement with Luther when it comes to his exegetical system. It is a matter of proportion, which I am going to keep typing, since most around here who type the loudest seem to lack it.

What does the wiki say just for fun (first sentences of the page):

Quote
Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Consequently, sola scriptura demands only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. However, sola scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura



 Well, shucks.  I guess my understanding has been wrong all along.  My apologies to Rachel, Orthonorm, etc...  If that wiki quote is what Luther taught, then I reckon he might have been right.  Still, it's the Church that gave us the Scriptures and the meaning of them.  Plus, I think  Primuspilus had some good points.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but one major deficiency in Sola Scriptura is the belief of sufficiency which states (and I quote from the much esteemed wikipedia article): The Bible contains everything that one needs to know in order to obtain salvation and to live a Christian life.[29] There are no deficiencies in Scripture that need to be filled with by tradition

There are indeed topics that are not addressed in Scripture that tradition advises us of.  I wouldn't call them "deficiencies" because the Bible was never meant to be a systematic theology textbook.

It's irony, I don't Gabriel is trying to hurt my feelings, so it ain't sarcasm.

Again, I would challenge you to read Luther and his exegetical program and explain to me how it is fundamentally flawed and how anyone reads anything nowadays in a fundamentally different manner than how Luther elucidated. (Not that I think hermeneutical investigation stopped at Luther, but I think most which followed was simply an expansion of his insight which was in turn an expansion of St. Augustine's understanding. I don't know enough about Origen to be able to locate his approach within the tradition.)

My quoting the first lines of the wiki were in for fun.

And really, you can interpret those words quite easily to maintain an Orthodox worldview.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,301



« Reply #277 on: June 04, 2013, 02:43:09 PM »

I don't necessarily have a problem with Luther's belief when it comes to Scripture other than to say his belief in the Church being nothing but an invisible body of believers forces him to the postion he takes. I'm not sure if Luther ever even used the phrase sola scriptura (at least, I have never come across it in my reading of his writings).

I don't think it can plausibly be denied that modern Christianity has taken his views to a radical extreme.  One need only to read Rachel's posts on this forum or any number of modern evangelical writings to see that a more fideistic approach has been the norm and Church history has been ignored.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,582


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #278 on: June 05, 2013, 08:48:14 AM »

Speaking of Rachel...where'd she go? Im still waiting for an actual answer to my question about where it is obvious to see in the scripture that Jesus and his brothers were meant as blood brothers, but Abraham and Lot were not......

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,434


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #279 on: June 05, 2013, 08:53:27 AM »

Speaking of Rachel...where'd she go? Im still waiting for an actual answer to my question about where it is obvious to see in the scripture that Jesus and his brothers were meant as blood brothers, but Abraham and Lot were not......

PP

You're not the only one who's been left hanging. I'm waiting for her answer to whether Jesus was Joseph the carpenter's son. 
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,301



« Reply #280 on: June 05, 2013, 09:39:19 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,434


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #281 on: June 05, 2013, 09:46:56 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

Plenty of other folks with yellow dots still post. It just takes longer for the posts to show up.
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,301



« Reply #282 on: June 05, 2013, 09:50:20 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

Plenty of other folks with yellow dots still post. It just takes longer for the posts to show up.

I know, but she seems to just like blasting out lots of unsubstantiated posts condemning Orthodoxy.  That is a bit harder to do when you are moderated.  If, on the other hand, she wanted to actually make thoughtful posts that actually answered peoples questions, then she would probably still be here.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,650


November is short. Type fast.


« Reply #283 on: June 05, 2013, 09:50:36 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

Plenty of other folks with yellow dots still post. It just takes longer for the posts to show up.

Those folks have things to say that can make it through moderation.
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,604



« Reply #284 on: June 05, 2013, 09:52:47 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

She also didn't seem consumed by the place anyhow, content to stop by to post-bomb occasionally.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,301



« Reply #285 on: June 05, 2013, 09:56:11 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

She also didn't seem consumed by the place anyhow, content to stop by to post-bomb occasionally.

I wonder why people like Rachel show up here?  Orthodoxy isn't quite the target of Protestant's ire like RCs are.  It is one thing if you are interested in Orthodoxy, but it is quite another if you just show up for an argument, which Rachel readily admitted to doing.  I think several people asked her why she was here, but of course, did not get an answer.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,604



« Reply #286 on: June 05, 2013, 09:59:20 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

She also didn't seem consumed by the place anyhow, content to stop by to post-bomb occasionally.

I wonder why people like Rachel show up here?  Orthodoxy isn't quite the target of Protestant's ire like RCs are.  It is one thing if you are interested in Orthodoxy, but it is quite another if you just show up for an argument, which Rachel readily admitted to doing.  I think several people asked her why she was here, but of course, did not get an answer.

Few people are here due to an interest in Orthodoxy JTBF. And I would imagine those who primarily are quickly find better ways of meeting their interest.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 3,000


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #287 on: June 05, 2013, 10:04:51 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

She also didn't seem consumed by the place anyhow, content to stop by to post-bomb occasionally.

I wonder why people like Rachel show up here?  Orthodoxy isn't quite the target of Protestant's ire like RCs are.  It is one thing if you are interested in Orthodoxy, but it is quite another if you just show up for an argument, which Rachel readily admitted to doing.  I think several people asked her why she was here, but of course, did not get an answer.

Few people are here due to an interest in Orthodoxy JTBF. And I would imagine those who primarily are quickly find better ways of meeting their interest.

I would rather say that few people are here solely for that reason. 
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,301



« Reply #288 on: June 05, 2013, 10:23:17 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

She also didn't seem consumed by the place anyhow, content to stop by to post-bomb occasionally.

I wonder why people like Rachel show up here?  Orthodoxy isn't quite the target of Protestant's ire like RCs are.  It is one thing if you are interested in Orthodoxy, but it is quite another if you just show up for an argument, which Rachel readily admitted to doing.  I think several people asked her why she was here, but of course, did not get an answer.

Few people are here due to an interest in Orthodoxy JTBF. And I would imagine those who primarily are quickly find better ways of meeting their interest.

I don't know what JTBF means, but I think most people here have a passing interest in it at least or they would be on some other forum debating many of the same inane arguments that we have here about abortion, homosexuality, etc.  Wink
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #289 on: June 05, 2013, 10:56:52 AM »

Quote

 Why don't you tell us what you think it means?  

It's really not that difficult. Read Luther. Heck the wiki might be fine for a pedestrian. It doesn't mean nothing exists within understanding outside of the text of Scripture. That is stupid. Dumb. And foolish.

Luther might have been as foolish as many of us, but no one here is giving him a run in the intelligence department.

Heck many RCs and guess what . . . Orthodox find themselves in agreement with Luther when it comes to his exegetical system. It is a matter of proportion, which I am going to keep typing, since most around here who type the loudest seem to lack it.

What does the wiki say just for fun (first sentences of the page):

Quote
Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Consequently, sola scriptura demands only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. However, sola scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura



 Well, shucks.  I guess my understanding has been wrong all along.  My apologies to Rachel, Orthonorm, etc...  If that wiki quote is what Luther taught, then I reckon he might have been right.  Still, it's the Church that gave us the Scriptures and the meaning of them.  Plus, I think  Primuspilus had some good points.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but one major deficiency in Sola Scriptura is the belief of sufficiency which states (and I quote from the much esteemed wikipedia article): The Bible contains everything that one needs to know in order to obtain salvation and to live a Christian life.[29] There are no deficiencies in Scripture that need to be filled with by tradition

There are indeed topics that are not addressed in Scripture that tradition advises us of.  I wouldn't call them "deficiencies" because the Bible was never meant to be a systematic theology textbook.

It's irony, I don't Gabriel is trying to hurt my feelings, so it ain't sarcasm.

Didn't mean to sound sarcastic; it's sometimes hard to tell on a forum. 

Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,604



« Reply #290 on: June 05, 2013, 11:00:16 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

She also didn't seem consumed by the place anyhow, content to stop by to post-bomb occasionally.

I wonder why people like Rachel show up here?  Orthodoxy isn't quite the target of Protestant's ire like RCs are.  It is one thing if you are interested in Orthodoxy, but it is quite another if you just show up for an argument, which Rachel readily admitted to doing.  I think several people asked her why she was here, but of course, did not get an answer.

Few people are here due to an interest in Orthodoxy JTBF. And I would imagine those who primarily are quickly find better ways of meeting their interest.

I don't know what JTBF means, but I think most people here have a passing interest in it at least or they would be on some other forum debating many of the same inane arguments that we have here about abortion, homosexuality, etc.  Wink

Just to be fair.

I think the motives are beyond an interest in Orthodoxy. Talking about Orthodoxy is one of the behaviors. Anyway, who cares.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,604



« Reply #291 on: June 05, 2013, 11:02:06 AM »

Quote

 Why don't you tell us what you think it means?  

It's really not that difficult. Read Luther. Heck the wiki might be fine for a pedestrian. It doesn't mean nothing exists within understanding outside of the text of Scripture. That is stupid. Dumb. And foolish.

Luther might have been as foolish as many of us, but no one here is giving him a run in the intelligence department.

Heck many RCs and guess what . . . Orthodox find themselves in agreement with Luther when it comes to his exegetical system. It is a matter of proportion, which I am going to keep typing, since most around here who type the loudest seem to lack it.

What does the wiki say just for fun (first sentences of the page):

Quote
Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Consequently, sola scriptura demands only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. However, sola scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura



 Well, shucks.  I guess my understanding has been wrong all along.  My apologies to Rachel, Orthonorm, etc...  If that wiki quote is what Luther taught, then I reckon he might have been right.  Still, it's the Church that gave us the Scriptures and the meaning of them.  Plus, I think  Primuspilus had some good points.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but one major deficiency in Sola Scriptura is the belief of sufficiency which states (and I quote from the much esteemed wikipedia article): The Bible contains everything that one needs to know in order to obtain salvation and to live a Christian life.[29] There are no deficiencies in Scripture that need to be filled with by tradition

There are indeed topics that are not addressed in Scripture that tradition advises us of.  I wouldn't call them "deficiencies" because the Bible was never meant to be a systematic theology textbook.

It's irony, I don't Gabriel is trying to hurt my feelings, so it ain't sarcasm.

Didn't mean to sound sarcastic; it's sometimes hard to tell on a forum. 



Like I would mind . . . I just don't care for when people label irony more specifically as sarcasm, as some people do care about sarcasm and it goes to someone's less than charitable motives.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #292 on: June 05, 2013, 11:02:24 AM »

  Orthodoxy isn't quite the target of Protestant's ire like RCs are. 

 That's because they haven't heard much about us yet.  Now that we're beginning to grow, Protestants are beginning to take notice.

Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,899


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #293 on: June 05, 2013, 11:52:23 AM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

Plenty of other folks with yellow dots still post. It just takes longer for the posts to show up.

Those folks have things to say that can make it through moderation.
As long as rachel refuses to make any effort to fulfill the requirements I've placed upon her HERE, most of what she posts will likely NOT make it through moderation. Anything she posts that does satisfy my requirements, though, will likely be approved.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 11:56:44 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,604



« Reply #294 on: June 05, 2013, 12:38:02 PM »

Probably because she was put on moderated status for calling Orthodoxy heretical.

Plenty of other folks with yellow dots still post. It just takes longer for the posts to show up.

Those folks have things to say that can make it through moderation.
As long as rachel refuses to make any effort to fulfill the requirements I've placed upon her HERE, most of what she posts will likely NOT make it through moderation. Anything she posts that does satisfy my requirements, though, will likely be approved.

Good grief.

How much do we pay you to do this amount work?

Whatever it is, I say a raise is in order.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Happy Lutheran
Servant of Christ
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Lutheran
Posts: 258



« Reply #295 on: June 05, 2013, 06:50:53 PM »

I don't necessarily have a problem with Luther's belief when it comes to Scripture other than to say his belief in the Church being nothing but an invisible body of believers forces him to the postion he takes.

First off I am here from a genuine interest in Orthodoxy and even though there are some disagreements I feel I am pretty respectful and fair.

To your point on Luther, he said:

"For, thank God, today a child seven years old knows what the Church is, namely, the holy believers and lambs who hear the voice of their Shepherd."

Since no man can come to the Father unless drawn (John 6:44) I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with Luther on this point. Saying the Church is only in the visible walls of the Orthodox hierarchy puts a limit on God and who he calls. It excludes all kinds of great charitable Christians and I can not believe a God of love and grace who wishes we are all saved operates that way.
Logged

1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,297


"Do not be afraid, Zechariah..."


WWW
« Reply #296 on: June 05, 2013, 08:29:07 PM »

Since no man can come to the Father unless drawn (John 6:44) I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with Luther on this point. Saying the Church is only in the visible walls of the Orthodox hierarchy puts a limit on God and who he calls. It excludes all kinds of great charitable Christians and I can not believe a God of love and grace who wishes we are all saved operates that way.

Why stop there?  Why not be concerned about the exclusion of all kinds of great, charitable non-Christians? 

Our Lord Jesus Christ knows who and how to save, and in that we hope, but that should not prevent us from proclaiming the gospel as he handed it to us.  And that includes the Church he established: not some amorphous aggregation of "good people", but a congregation of people incorporated into himself through baptism and the Eucharist--the Body of Christ, as "real", as "physical", as his own human body. 
Logged

The New World Order (1943 to present):

Jesuit Provincial > Jesuit Order > Jesuit Superior > Mor < Roman Pontiff < Illuminati Families < Holy See < UN
Happy Lutheran
Servant of Christ
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Lutheran
Posts: 258



« Reply #297 on: June 05, 2013, 08:44:44 PM »



Why stop there?  Why not be concerned about the exclusion of all kinds of great, charitable non-Christians? 

I don't and I am

However, God has instituted and ordained that we have faith in Christ Jesus and that we are to be Baptized.

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"

Jesus Christ

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ knows who and how to save, and in that we hope, but that should not prevent us from proclaiming the gospel as he handed it to us.  And that includes the Church he established: not some amorphous aggregation of "good people", but a congregation of people incorporated into himself through baptism and the Eucharist--the Body of Christ, as "real", as "physical", as his own human body. 

Sounds like Luther, he just wouldn't concede to you that you are the [only] church or called out assembly, the ekklesia. The called out assembly are those that hear the voice of their shepherd.
Logged

1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,301



« Reply #298 on: June 05, 2013, 09:02:07 PM »

I'm not saying they aren't Christians or followers of Christ.  I'm saying, they aren't the Church.  There were followers of God in the OT who were outside of Israel, and there were Israelites who were not followers of God, but God spoke and illumined the world through Israel just as He does today through the Church.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,297


"Do not be afraid, Zechariah..."


WWW
« Reply #299 on: June 05, 2013, 11:22:26 PM »

Sounds like Luther, he just wouldn't concede to you that you are the [only] church or called out assembly, the ekklesia. The called out assembly are those that hear the voice of their shepherd.

Of course he wouldn't, but that means little to me (lots of people here wouldn't concede that mine is the only Church! Smiley).  His beef is with the Acts of the Apostles and St Paul. 

The Church as "those that hear the voice of their shepherd" is too vague a definition to really mean anything, IMO.  It's not biblical, even if the imagery is.   
Logged

The New World Order (1943 to present):

Jesuit Provincial > Jesuit Order > Jesuit Superior > Mor < Roman Pontiff < Illuminati Families < Holy See < UN
Happy Lutheran
Servant of Christ
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Lutheran
Posts: 258



« Reply #300 on: June 06, 2013, 07:14:54 AM »


The Church as "those that hear the voice of their shepherd" is too vague a definition to really mean anything, IMO.  It's not biblical, even if the imagery is.   

No, it is very Biblical and comes from the mouth of Christ himself:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"

If we are his sheep, and we follow him, and he knows us, then clearly we are members of his ekklesia - the called out assembly.

and Paul:

Ephesians 2:16
and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Ephesians 3:6
that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

We are quite off topic though, I just wanted to clarify Luther's position since it was brought up by another poster.
Logged

1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 928


« Reply #301 on: June 06, 2013, 08:23:42 AM »


Ephesians 2:16
and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Ephesians 3:6
that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,


Protestant,Catholic and Orthodoxy do not have the same understanding on the cross.  They do not believe in the same gospel as well.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 08:25:38 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Happy Lutheran
Servant of Christ
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Lutheran
Posts: 258



« Reply #302 on: June 06, 2013, 09:32:04 AM »

Protestant,Catholic and Orthodoxy do not have the same understanding on the cross.  They do not believe in the same gospel as well.


1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Of course all three groups believe this, and thus, are from God. If they are from God, they are part of his called out assembly

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel

All three believe this.

1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:1-2
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Philippians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.



Logged

1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,301



« Reply #303 on: June 06, 2013, 09:46:57 AM »

Yay! Bible verse lists!  Here are my contributions.  Grin

Psalm 137:9
“Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

2 Kings 18:27
“But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?”

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

Judges 3:19-24
“But he himself turned back at the idols near Gilgal and said, ‘I have a secret message for you, O king.’ And he commanded, ‘Silence.’ And all his attendants went out from his presence. And Ehud came to him as he was sitting alone in his cool roof chamber. And Ehud said, ‘I have a message from God for you.’ And he arose from his seat. And Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly. And the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not pull the sword out of his belly; and the dung came out. Then Ehud went out into the porch and closed the doors of the roof chamber behind him and locked them. When he had gone, the servants came, and when they saw that the doors of the roof chamber were locked, they thought, ‘Surely he is relieving himself in the closet of the cool chamber.’“

Deuteronomy 23:1
No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Ezekial 23:19-20
Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 09:48:02 AM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,434


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #304 on: June 06, 2013, 09:52:19 AM »

You are one sick puppy.  laugh
Logged
Happy Lutheran
Servant of Christ
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Lutheran
Posts: 258



« Reply #305 on: June 06, 2013, 09:57:19 AM »

Yay! Bible verse lists!  Here are my contributions.  Grin

Deuteronomy 23:1
No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Ezekial 23:19-20
Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.



 Grin

The cornerstone of my Sunday School teaching
Logged

1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,297


"Do not be afraid, Zechariah..."


WWW
« Reply #306 on: June 06, 2013, 10:11:04 AM »

No, it is very Biblical and comes from the mouth of Christ himself:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"

If we are his sheep, and we follow him, and he knows us, then clearly we are members of his ekklesia - the called out assembly.

Sure, but in the same place he also speaks of the wolves that are capable of scattering the sheep, how he has other sheep who do not belong to the fold that he must call into the fold so that there is one flock and one shepherd, etc.  And, if the parable of the lost sheep is to be believed, sheep can often enough do their own thing.  I agreed that the imagery being used was biblical, but I rejected that the teaching itself (or your understanding thereof) was biblical.   

It's too simplistic to believe that everyone who "follows Christ" is part of an amorphous thing called the Church.  Which Christ?  There are many Jesuses (Jesii?) being preached out there.  Before the NT was written, Christ was only prefigured in the OT...it was the Church who made him known, and from which the NT flowed.  And that was a distinct body.  I'm not saying that the Upper Room of Acts 2 had a sign on it saying "St Mark's Syrian Orthodox Church" or anything like that (though now it does Smiley), but it was still a distinct body with a distinct leadership, succession, membership, etc.  In the passage where a man is casting out demons in Christ's name, and the apostles ask Jesus if they should stop him since "he's not one of us", he doesn't deny that he's not "one of us", even if he tells them not to stop him because whoever does good works in his name will not easily speak evil of him...they may be allies in some sense, but they're still not "one of us".  Being Jesus' BFF isn't enough.  

Quote
and Paul:

Ephesians 2:16
and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Ephesians 3:6
that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

We are quite off topic though, I just wanted to clarify Luther's position since it was brought up by another poster.

"One body" or "same body" only mean what you think they mean here if you take Luther's presupposition.  If you read Eph 2 and 3 in context, it's talking about how the Gentiles who were alienated from Israel have been brought near, incorporated into one body with the (believing) Jews, through Christ.  Israel was not some "YHWH fan club", it was a distinct body with a distinct leadership, succession, membership, etc.  That doesn't just disappear into an amorphous blob when Christ comes along, but he reveals what that distinct body foreshadowed.  Israel is God's firstborn son, according to the prophets...it's an icon of Christ's body, the Church.  In the dispensation of Christ, it doesn't transform into a cloud or a ghost, but remains a concrete reality, as Christ's own human flesh was.  When St Ignatius of Antioch writes about certain schismatics who rejected the Eucharist, he uses this sort of incarnational argument: they reject the Eucharist because they reject Christ's incarnation, but if they celebrate it, they must believe that he took flesh, and so have no excuse for separating themselves from the visible Church.        

I appreciate that you were just trying to clarify a point and not trying to sidetrack the discussion; I don't want to do that either.  My issue is with Luther.  I don't think that identifying and defining the Church as the NT does--as a visible, concrete body--and identifying that body in history with the Orthodox Church necessarily excludes a lot of great charitable Christians or puts limits on God.  It doesn't do that anymore than your assertion that Christian faith and baptism are necessary.  God can and will save whomever he wants, but he does that through Christ's body, both in terms of the paschal mystery and in terms of the (visible) Church.  "The saved" are connected in some way to that body, whether we are aware of it or not, whether it takes the form of a faithfully lived Christian life as a regular member of Ss Anargyroi on Fifth St or in some seemingly unconnected way.  But just as you say that Christian faith and baptism are necessary according to the Scriptures, we would argue the same: we know what God has revealed to us, we know that "this way" works, and so while we can hope optimistically for others' sake, that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility of proclaiming the gospel and inviting people to become members of Christ's body.  Salvation is God's business, and he can figure it out, but we know what he wills for man, what he has revealed to us as necessary, and that includes the visible (Orthodox) Church.      
Logged

The New World Order (1943 to present):

Jesuit Provincial > Jesuit Order > Jesuit Superior > Mor < Roman Pontiff < Illuminati Families < Holy See < UN
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 928


« Reply #307 on: June 06, 2013, 10:55:54 AM »

Protestant,Catholic and Orthodoxy do not have the same understanding on the cross.  They do not believe in the same gospel as well.


1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Of course all three groups believe this, and thus, are from God. If they are from God, they are part of his called out assembly

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel

All three believe this.

1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:1-2
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Philippians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.





Cross:Protestant believes Jesus was tortured and killed by God on the cross, while Orthodox believe Jesus entered and defeated the death through the cross

Gospel: The gospel that Protestant preaches is that the Father was angry on everybody and wanted to hate and torture them all forever.However, Jesus love all men and want to save them. Finally, the Father killed and tortured His only begotten son(e.g. Jesus) on cross, so He no longer want to kill and torture the believers forever anymore.

The gospel that Orthodox preaches is that sin is the cause of the death. God love us so much and does not want us suffering , so He come to the world and save us.Finally, He defeated the sin and death through His death and resurrection.



It is clearly two different crosses and gospels.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 11:02:09 AM by walter1234 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,899


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #308 on: June 06, 2013, 01:06:35 PM »

Back on topic, everyone. If you don't know what the topic is, then refer back to the OP. Thanks.
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,674


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #309 on: June 17, 2013, 10:33:14 PM »

I hope Armchair Theologian is still with us.  Smiley  I enjoy your respectful discussion of these matters.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,642


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #310 on: August 05, 2013, 05:27:50 PM »

In the OT, the Ark of the Covenant, which contained the jar of manna, the budding rod of Aaron, and the tablets on which the Law (Ten Commandments) were written, were the holiest objects to the Hebrews, and were treated with the utmost respect and honor. To even touch the Ark meant instant death, so great was its holiness.

The Ark, and all it contained, were, in God's wisdom, prefigurations of the immense and incomprehensible mystery, that of the Mother of God. She is the true Ark (in whom the infinite and immaterial God was contained), the Burning Bush (the fire of Divinity she carried in her body not only did not destroy her, but it purified her and preserved her virginity), the rod of Aaron (budded and sprung forth from barren and aged parents), the jar of manna which is fulfilled in the fruit of her womb, the very Bread of Life, Christ our God.

If the ark of old was so sacred, then how much more glorious and holy is the woman who is the very fulfillment of the type and shadow?

ok, back on topic! (although i got a laugh out of the random Bible quotes)
 Smiley
i have gone back and read the rest of the thread as now saint mary's fast is about to start for those of us on the old calendar and i am being asked those usual protestant questions again.
this post from LBK was one of my favourites (i loved all those images when i first heard about them a few years ago), but can you point me to any patristic references for this?

thanks. and thanks to saint mary for all her prayers and good example.
and thanks to God who chose her and brought us His very great salvation.
 Smiley
Logged
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,642


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #311 on: August 05, 2013, 05:32:58 PM »

oh, and i just have to share this, one of my favourite coptic songs about the burning bush!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5euKtDII6_0

in the last 2 churches, i attended we sang it a bit faster with lots of cymbal noise, it's a really joyful song, and explains a lot of the old testament images.
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,434


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #312 on: August 05, 2013, 07:08:45 PM »

this post from LBK was one of my favourites (i loved all those images when i first heard about them a few years ago), but can you point me to any patristic references for this?

The imagery I listed in my post is found in the hymns and prayers of the Church, which represent the mind of the Church and the consensus of the Fathers, who were inspired to recognize these elements in the OT as prefigurations of the Mother of God.

The Akathist Hymn to the Mother of God is stuffed full of such imagery.
Logged
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,642


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #313 on: August 06, 2013, 02:24:50 AM »

yes, and thanks for that. i love it and believe it, but i wonder if anyone can direct me to some of the sources.
(still working on explaining to my protestant friend about the church deciding the books of the Bible, not the other way round).
i remember someone mentioned saint ireneus - do anyone know which of his writings i should look at?
Logged
Gayle
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox christan
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 237


« Reply #314 on: August 16, 2013, 05:39:22 PM »

The Theotokos was chosen by God him self not the others, they came of their own accord.(after Jesus was born)When he called them.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.168 seconds with 73 queries.