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Author Topic: Re: The Theotokos  (Read 10853 times) Average Rating: 0
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #180 on: May 26, 2013, 01:13:10 PM »

Why would the apostles write down that the prayer of a righteous man avails much when such a thing doesn't even exist?
It does exist. We stand in Christ's righteousness.

And the saints don't?
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« Reply #181 on: May 26, 2013, 01:13:47 PM »

God will not share his glory with another.

Praising you or anyone else but God is a dangerous thing, then?
Well God says:
Isaiah 42:8
I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images


To praise another person for spouting heresy is not only flattery, it is insidious ecumenism.
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« Reply #182 on: May 26, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »

God will not share his glory with another.

Praising you or anyone else but God is a dangerous thing, then?
Well God says:
Isaiah 42:8
I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images


So praising someone is a no-no?
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« Reply #183 on: May 26, 2013, 01:27:14 PM »

I still don't get what is wrong with condescension. It is what God did after all.

This makes me smile...thank you, sir.  Smiley
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« Reply #184 on: May 26, 2013, 01:36:19 PM »

Jovan,
You ask me whether masturbation and abortion are sins. What is the Holy Spirit saying to you about these things?
I am not your judge.
Regarding the views expressed about Mary.
Firstly: there is nothing to suggest any of this in scripture
Secondly: there is a lot in scripture that allows you to know that such beliefs are wrong as the Holy Spirit will not contradict himself.
For example:
God says that ONLY he can forgive sins
He says he is the door
He says there is ONE mediator and that is himself
etc
Read my posts as I have identified where beliefs about Mary run counter to scripture. If you chose to believe Orthodox views on Mary then you chose these views above God's word and the implication of this is that you think God a liar.
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« Reply #185 on: May 26, 2013, 01:40:58 PM »

Quote
Now lets compare these two models.

A: Through Christ we have boldness before God.

B: Through Mary we have boldness before God.

...Is this not problematic? Could it not be argued that because there is this idea that we need Mary to usher us into the presences of her Son, we're making Christ's own empathy for us out to be insufficient? Is it possible that His Divinity is being emphasized in such a way that it marginalizes the importance of His humanity, thus leaving us in a situation where we feel we need an extra mediator to bring us before Him in boldness? What is the resolution?

It is only problematic if one has to choose between the two. Orthodoxy does not teach this.
The difference is that the one is scriptural and the other isn't.



Nonsense. The prayer of a righteous man availeth much, as St James writes in his epistle. And who are the most righteous? The saints, and the Mother of God, who are alive in Christ.
Who do you think is righteous enough?
The answer is no-one. Not the apostles, not Mary. We can stand before God clothed only in Christ's righteousness that he purchased for us at Calvary. We are told that our righteousness is as filthy rags.



Christ instituted the Holy Mystery of Baptism whereby we are born again and clothed in righteousness. To believe that our righteousness is now nothing but a bunch of menstrual rags is heresy now that we have been redeemed, born again, and clothed in righteousness.

The Holy Mystery of Chrismation fills us with the Holy Spirit and illuminates us so that we can be victorious over the devil and strive toward theosis. Holy Communion unites us with Christ where we become one with Christ.

You have been spouting the insidious heresy of Calvinism, which does not believe that man can be redeemed. If man cannot be redeemed through Holy Baptism, Holy Chrismation and Holy Communion, then why did Christ die for us?
I will happily answer these things but I think you need to put them in another thread as we are going off topic. Do you want to transfer them to how to interpret scripture?
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« Reply #186 on: May 26, 2013, 01:46:08 PM »

And yet the Gospels don't instruct us to sing hymns of praise, glorify and extol her, or any such thing.
That's because we're not supposed to do such a thing. It is idolatry. God will not share his glory with another.

Is your Bible missing the Gospel of Luke?

'My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded the lowliness of his handmaiden.
For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath magnified me
, and holy is his Name.'

Absolutely. But what it doesn't say is:
Priest: Our most gracious Queen, our hope, O Theotokos, Who receivest the orphaned and art the intercessor for the stranger; the joy of those in sorrow, protectress of the wronged, see our distress, see our affliction! Help us, for we are helpless. Feed us, for we are strangers and pilgrims. Thou knowest our offences; forgive them, and resolve them as Thou dost will. For we know no other help but Thee, no other intercessor, no gracious comforter, only Thee, O Theotokos to guard and protect us for ages of ages. Amen. 
Where in God's word does it say that Mary is:
queen?
our hope?
our intercessor?
our protectress?
Where does it say:
that she sees our distress?
that she can help us?
that she can feed us?
that she knows our offences?
that she can forgive sins?
that we have no other help but her?
that we have no other intercessor?
that we have no comforter than her?
That she can guard and protect us?

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« Reply #187 on: May 26, 2013, 01:47:44 PM »

Why would the apostles write down that the prayer of a righteous man avails much when such a thing doesn't even exist?
It does exist. We stand in Christ's righteousness.

And the saints don't?
We all, saints from the past and saints alive today, stand clothed in Christ's righteousness.
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« Reply #188 on: May 26, 2013, 02:10:04 PM »

I'm starting to get the feeling that this whole "Do what the Holy Spirit is telling you" think is really a cover up for many peoples' personal feelings and emotions. After all, many people have believed that the voices inside of their heads were of "the Holy Spirit" or of some other religious thing  Wink
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #189 on: May 26, 2013, 02:17:51 PM »

I'm starting to get the feeling that this whole "Do what the Holy Spirit is telling you" think is really a cover up for many peoples' personal feelings and emotions. After all, many people have believed that the voices inside of their heads were of "the Holy Spirit" or of some other religious thing  Wink

Thanks mate, you saved me some explanation.

But with all respect I appreciate your response Rachel. But now you see why I asked the question. People have felt that lying is needed just because the "Holy Spirit" convinced them. People have felt that in a matter of a second suddenly the Holy Spirit ought to give words rather than Gods word, which I thought was a complete source for me to look at according to you. In the end , someone has then to judge if that what we think is the "work and telling of the Holy Spirit" is something true or false. If scripture can´t back that up, who or what can?

You still got the questions before you. If you can´t answer them in the way I asked you to. Exact word by word that these acts are sins, then your sola scriptura fails, end of discussion. With much love and respect for you. But if Sola scriptura can´t stand the questions on masturbation and abortion, then the orthodox has proved the point. We need an outside source, except the scripture, to explain about these matters, and many, many, many and many more.

If the protestant church is that outside source, then you go into circular reasoning, and give that church the authority it cannot prove nor hold.

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« Reply #190 on: May 26, 2013, 02:20:12 PM »

So now Rachel, before you even go on with questioning Mary and her role in the orthodox church. Try to find answers, according to your own standard(Word by word in the scripture, or else rubbish) on masturbation and abortion. Start with these, I can fill you up with more matters if you need. If your standard can´t hold the race, then you better change it.
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« Reply #191 on: May 26, 2013, 02:27:01 PM »

Mary is a sinner in need of a saviour just like the rest of mankind.

Hi Rachel,

I don't know you; forgive me if this sounds harsh, but there's no pleasant sounding way to warn a swimmer of a shark.

All of your harping would be so boring and long-winded if it weren't so dangerous.  From the first pages of Scripture, God has announced the enmity between the serpent and "the woman", between the serpent's seed and the seed of "the woman" (cf. Gn. 3.15).  And every time I see Protestants, out of their zeal for the worship of the one God, drag down into the mud and stomp upon the dignity of the Mother of Jesus (the only woman with seed because of her ever-virginal motherhood), I can't help but hear Christ's words directed toward them: "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (Jn. 8.44).

No one denies that Mary needed a Savior.  She said so herself (cf. Lk. 1.47).  But, typically, even if we see others sinning, we don't call them sinners or think badly of them, because we recognize, as Paul did, that each of us ourselves is the foremost among sinners (cf. I Tim. 1.15).  So why do you think you have the right to take your eyes off your own spiritual misery and heap insults on Jesus' Mother?  Do you think Jesus is impressed?

No, he's not impressed.  He is impressed when a woman cries out in a crowd "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed", and rather than contradict those words, he amplifies them by declaring blessed those who hear the word of God and keep it (cf. Lk. 11.27-28).  No one in Scripture heard the word of God and kept it better than Mary, who heard God's word with the ears and heart of faith and brought it forth in her manner of life even before she heard God's word through the angel with the same ears and heart of faith, bringing forth God's Son made flesh, flesh of her flesh, bone of her bone, blood of her blood.  It was because there was no one who heard the word of God and kept it better than Mary that God chose her to be the mother of his Son; he didn't just scour the world looking for an incubator and say "That Jew will do."    

LBK and others have given you a lot of Scripture and a lot of ideas from Scripture to consider.  If you are really interested, interact with that material, as others in this thread have, who may not understand at first but are willing to ponder and learn.  No one expects you to understand or believe immediately, but there's a way to seek understanding and then there's simply the obstinate refusal to believe nothing but your own wisdom.  Don't do the latter.

When LBK wrote about the role of the Queen Mother in the OT, I couldn't help but think of the Wedding at Cana (cf. Jn. 2.1-11).  When Mary approaches Jesus with the problem of the lack of wine, he at first doesn't seem disposed to do anything about it: he tells her that it's not their concern, and that his hour has not yet come.  But Mary's insistent plea for her Son's help takes on another form, as she prepares the servants to "do whatever he tells" them.  And Christ, even though his hour had not yet come, advances that hour--alters his schedule and plan, as we might say--to provide wine for a wedding (relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things), because it meant so much to his mother that he help.  He advanced his approach to Calvary in order to answer the seemingly insignificant request of his mother.  Are we to believe that he won't listen to her when she asks for even more important things?  

And at Calvary, on the cross, he thought of his mother: "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, 'Woman, behold, your son!'  Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!'  And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home" (Jn. 19.26-27).  Now, we believe that this "beloved disciple" was John himself, but it's surely not an accident, but the intention of the Holy Spirit, that he is not named, but is simply "the disciple whom Jesus loved".  Jesus gives his mother another son: his beloved disciple.  And the beloved disciple receives a mother: Jesus' own mother.  If we would be another of Jesus' beloved disciples, how can we ignore the gift he gave us in his mother, his dying gift to us from the cross?  If we would be another of Jesus' beloved disciples, how can we not but take his mother into our own homes and lives as immediately as that beloved disciple did?  

As Fr Thomas Hopko taught in a podcast I can't recall right now, "Mary is a mystery of the Church".  Only when one has truly accepted Christ with faith and repentance and become a member of his Body through baptism and the Eucharist can they understand Mary.  She doesn't make sense to those outside the Church, to those who are not members of Christ's Body; maybe that's why the Devil and his children hate her with such passion.  If you are not Christ's, then Mary will never make sense to you, and that is your choice (i.e., to remain outside the house instead of joining the family).  But don't think you can get away with ridiculing things as important as Mary just because you don't understand them.  No man likes it when you insult his mother, much less the God-Man, and I wouldn't recommend annoying him: "Your mama" jokes always end badly.  

Edited to add a citation.  
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 02:31:38 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

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« Reply #192 on: May 26, 2013, 02:53:06 PM »

Mary is a sinner in need of a saviour just like the rest of mankind.

Hi Rachel,

I don't know you; forgive me if this sounds harsh, but there's no pleasant sounding way to warn a swimmer of a shark.

All of your harping would be so boring and long-winded if it weren't so dangerous.  From the first pages of Scripture, God has announced the enmity between the serpent and "the woman", between the serpent's seed and the seed of "the woman" (cf. Gn. 3.15).  And every time I see Protestants, out of their zeal for the worship of the one God, drag down into the mud and stomp upon the dignity of the Mother of Jesus (the only woman with seed because of her ever-virginal motherhood), I can't help but hear Christ's words directed toward them: "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (Jn. 8.44).

No one denies that Mary needed a Savior.  She said so herself (cf. Lk. 1.47).  But, typically, even if we see others sinning, we don't call them sinners or think badly of them, because we recognize, as Paul did, that each of us ourselves is the foremost among sinners (cf. I Tim. 1.15).  So why do you think you have the right to take your eyes off your own spiritual misery and heap insults on Jesus' Mother?  Do you think Jesus is impressed?

No, he's not impressed.  He is impressed when a woman cries out in a crowd "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed", and rather than contradict those words, he amplifies them by declaring blessed those who hear the word of God and keep it (cf. Lk. 11.27-28).  No one in Scripture heard the word of God and kept it better than Mary, who heard God's word with the ears and heart of faith and brought it forth in her manner of life even before she heard God's word through the angel with the same ears and heart of faith, bringing forth God's Son made flesh, flesh of her flesh, bone of her bone, blood of her blood.  It was because there was no one who heard the word of God and kept it better than Mary that God chose her to be the mother of his Son; he didn't just scour the world looking for an incubator and say "That Jew will do."    

LBK and others have given you a lot of Scripture and a lot of ideas from Scripture to consider.  If you are really interested, interact with that material, as others in this thread have, who may not understand at first but are willing to ponder and learn.  No one expects you to understand or believe immediately, but there's a way to seek understanding and then there's simply the obstinate refusal to believe nothing but your own wisdom.  Don't do the latter.

When LBK wrote about the role of the Queen Mother in the OT, I couldn't help but think of the Wedding at Cana (cf. Jn. 2.1-11).  When Mary approaches Jesus with the problem of the lack of wine, he at first doesn't seem disposed to do anything about it: he tells her that it's not their concern, and that his hour has not yet come.  But Mary's insistent plea for her Son's help takes on another form, as she prepares the servants to "do whatever he tells" them.  And Christ, even though his hour had not yet come, advances that hour--alters his schedule and plan, as we might say--to provide wine for a wedding (relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things), because it meant so much to his mother that he help.  He advanced his approach to Calvary in order to answer the seemingly insignificant request of his mother.  Are we to believe that he won't listen to her when she asks for even more important things?  

And at Calvary, on the cross, he thought of his mother: "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, 'Woman, behold, your son!'  Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!'  And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home" (Jn. 19.26-27).  Now, we believe that this "beloved disciple" was John himself, but it's surely not an accident, but the intention of the Holy Spirit, that he is not named, but is simply "the disciple whom Jesus loved".  Jesus gives his mother another son: his beloved disciple.  And the beloved disciple receives a mother: Jesus' own mother.  If we would be another of Jesus' beloved disciples, how can we ignore the gift he gave us in his mother, his dying gift to us from the cross?  If we would be another of Jesus' beloved disciples, how can we not but take his mother into our own homes and lives as immediately as that beloved disciple did?  

As Fr Thomas Hopko taught in a podcast I can't recall right now, "Mary is a mystery of the Church".  Only when one has truly accepted Christ with faith and repentance and become a member of his Body through baptism and the Eucharist can they understand Mary.  She doesn't make sense to those outside the Church, to those who are not members of Christ's Body; maybe that's why the Devil and his children hate her with such passion.  If you are not Christ's, then Mary will never make sense to you, and that is your choice (i.e., to remain outside the house instead of joining the family).  But don't think you can get away with ridiculing things as important as Mary just because you don't understand them.  No man likes it when you insult his mother, much less the God-Man, and I wouldn't recommend annoying him: "Your mama" jokes always end badly.  

Edited to add a citation.  

I seriously love you and your wisdom from God! You better come to Sweden and marry me whether you or the church like it or not, haha Tongue

When I became orthodox 2 years ago and dived into a sea of mystery and truth, one thought always gave me comfort.

That one day, standing before the glory of the Holy and Living One, shaking and sweating because I, the greatest sinner, won´t dare to even pronounce His name. In that moment, where I can´t even handle the glory of our Lord and Savior, his Mother will step forth with a comforting hug and say that She, the most Blessed One, have prayed for me many times. Maybe then will I dare to say what is most truthful and merciful, please O' Lord, your will be done, just your will be done...

You Mor Ephrem, give a whole other dimension to the fullness of Gods grace and love. I can´t thank you enough, please forgive me for that Sad
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 02:54:19 PM by Jovan » Logged

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« Reply #193 on: May 26, 2013, 03:28:46 PM »

Mary is a sinner in need of a saviour just like the rest of mankind.

Hi Rachel,

I don't know you; forgive me if this sounds harsh, but there's no pleasant sounding way to warn a swimmer of a shark.

All of your harping would be so boring and long-winded if it weren't so dangerous.  From the first pages of Scripture, God has announced the enmity between the serpent and "the woman", between the serpent's seed and the seed of "the woman" (cf. Gn. 3.15).  And every time I see Protestants, out of their zeal for the worship of the one God, drag down into the mud and stomp upon the dignity of the Mother of Jesus
Where have I dragged Mary down in the mud or stomped on her dignity?
Quote
(the only woman with seed because of her ever-virginal motherhood)
Are you suggesting that the other children she bore were likewise conceived?
Quote
I can't help but hear Christ's words directed toward them: "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (Jn. 8.44).
Quite so. And who told you that Mary could forgive sins, be a mediator between us and Christ etc?

Quote
No one denies that Mary needed a Savior.  She said so herself (cf. Lk. 1.47).  But, typically, even if we see others sinning, we don't call them sinners or think badly of them, because we recognize, as Paul did, that each of us ourselves is the foremost among sinners (cf. I Tim. 1.15).  So why do you think you have the right to take your eyes off your own spiritual misery

Am I a sinner? Yes. Am I in spiritual misery? No because Christ has died for my sins and I stand clothed in his righteousness and indwelt of the Holy Spirit. I can rejoice because of what Christ has done for me.
Quote
and heap insults on Jesus' Mother?

What insults have I heaped on Jesus' mother?


Quote
LBK and others have given you a lot of Scripture and a lot of ideas from Scripture to consider.  If you are really interested, interact with that material, as others in this thread have, who may not understand at first but are willing to ponder and learn.  No one expects you to understand or believe immediately, but there's a way to seek understanding and then there's simply the obstinate refusal to believe nothing but your own wisdom.  Don't do the latter.
Well that works both ways.

 

Quote
As Fr Thomas Hopko taught in a podcast I can't recall right now, "Mary is a mystery of the Church".
I quite understand what God's word has to say about Mary.
Quote
Only when one has truly accepted Christ with faith and repentance and become a member of his Body through baptism and the Eucharist
Well God's word does not say that baptism and the Eucharist are part of salvation but that is another debate - perhaps for another thread.
Quote
can they understand Mary.
Where do you get this idea from? What God's word has to say about Mary is perfectly clear. You seek to add to this.
Quote
She doesn't make sense to those outside the Church, to those who are not members of Christ's Body; maybe that's why the Devil and his children hate her with such passion.
I think you'll find that it is Christ and his death and resurrection that Satan hates with such a passion as it is by this alone that we are reconciled to God.
I think by this that you wish to infer that I am a child of Satan and hate Mary. Nothing that I have said regarding Mary suggests this. Please cite what I have said that suggests this?
Quote
If you are not Christ's, then Mary will never make sense to you, and that is your choice (i.e., to remain outside the house instead of joining the family).  But don't think you can get away with ridiculing things as important as Mary just because you don't understand them.
Well that's a lot of assumptions. You again make wild allegations that I have ridiculed Mary. Please cite where I have done so.

Quote
No man likes it when you insult his mother, much less the God-Man, and I wouldn't recommend annoying him: "Your mama" jokes always end badly.
You keep alleging that I have insulted Mary or made jokes about her. Please cite where or stop making such allegations.
At the same time I would be grateful if you could show me where in scripture it says the following about Mary:
Priest: Our most gracious Queen, our hope, O Theotokos, Who receivest the orphaned and art the intercessor for the stranger; the joy of those in sorrow, protectress of the wronged, see our distress, see our affliction! Help us, for we are helpless. Feed us, for we are strangers and pilgrims. Thou knowest our offences; forgive them, and resolve them as Thou dost will. For we know no other help but Thee, no other intercessor, no gracious comforter, only Thee, O Theotokos to guard and protect us for ages of ages. Amen. 
Where in God's word does it say that Mary is:
queen?
our hope?
our intercessor?
our protectress?
Where does it say:
that she sees our distress?
that she can help us?
that she can feed us?
that she knows our offences?
that she can forgive sins?
that we have no other help but her?
that we have no other intercessor?
that we have no comforter than her?
That she can guard and protect us?

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« Reply #194 on: May 26, 2013, 03:36:25 PM »

Neo-Protestants like to wipe Mary off the books. That way, they don't have to have reverence for anyone except themselves.

Even though it's the Bible that calls Mary 'the mother of my Lord' and says 'every generation shall call me blessed.'

Go figure.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #195 on: May 26, 2013, 03:49:33 PM »

rachel does the rare feat of being both a bore and boor.
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« Reply #196 on: May 26, 2013, 06:01:53 PM »

Hi Rachel,

I'm not going to engage in a line-by-line debate on your points.  It's always easier to make an error than to correct one, and your approach is ample proof of that. 

You ask where you've trampled upon the dignity of Mary (in my estimation), and I quoted one of your statements to show that.  You see, I've listened to Evangelical preachers on TV or radio who speak very well of Mary (when they ever speak of her).  I wish I had the recordings myself or knew how to access them, but I've heard very orthodox sermons about Mary from the mouths of people like Billy Graham, Charles Swindoll, and James MacDonald (all of whom, I trust, meet your "Bible-believing" standards).  They are able to speak well of her, even if they don't believe everything we do about her or practice our devotional practices.  They're able to do that because they're not insecure in their belief.  They don't have to prove it to anyone.  They believe it speaks for itself, and so they share it in love.  And if they were questioned on it by someone like me, we may study the issue and still not see eye to eye, we may disagree, and that would be that; but sometimes, one or the other of us might learn something more of the truth, and when that happens, it is a good thing.  But people who have an ax to grind do what you do, which is quote statement after statement by different posters and ask the same trolling questions in order to see if one of us will succumb and say "You know what, you're right, we are idol and goddess worshipers."  I repeat: Jesus is not amused.

Many of your questions regarding the wording of our prayers, the ever-virginity of Mary, the doctrine of salvation, the intercessory ministry of the saints, etc. have been covered in other threads or even in this thread by other worthy posters and myself.  Some of the doubts you raise I've already addressed in previous posts in this thread; quite frankly, I don't feel like answering your questions when you don't want to consider our answers.  Something about pearls and swine I once read somewhere... 

Oh, and by the way, "God's word" = Jesus Christ (cf. Jn. 1.1, 14).  As important as the Bible is for us, the text of the Bible is "God's word" in the sense that it testifies to the Word of God made flesh.  The Bible itself is not some magic oracle that can be quoted chapter and verse to support a particular case and be correct just because "it's God's word"; separated from the Word of God, Jesus Christ, it can be twisted to support any number of ideas.  That's why even the Devil knows and is able to quote Scripture, but to no avail (cf. Mt. 4.1-11).  Only in union with Christ as a member of the Body of Christ does the Bible make sense, and the Body of Christ is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth (cf. Col. 1.18; I Tim. 3.15).  When you identify "God's word" exclusively with the Bible, you're certain to trip up somewhere, because that very idea is not biblical. 
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« Reply #197 on: May 26, 2013, 06:06:50 PM »

I seriously love you and your wisdom from God! You better come to Sweden and marry me whether you or the church like it or not, haha Tongue


Well, I'm not a priest, nor do I expect to become one anytime soon, so I don't think I could marry you; I'd be happy to attend the wedding if invited, though.  Smiley
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« Reply #198 on: May 26, 2013, 06:55:46 PM »

I seriously love you and your wisdom from God! You better come to Sweden and marry me whether you or the church like it or not, haha Tongue


Well, I'm not a priest, nor do I expect to become one anytime soon, so I don't think I could marry you; I'd be happy to attend the wedding if invited, though.  Smiley

Forgive me for my bad jokes brother, sometimes I try and fail as hard Tongue
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« Reply #199 on: May 26, 2013, 07:00:21 PM »

If anyone is interested, take a look. Displays the beauty of orthodoxy in a wonderful way, Glory to the Lord.

Couldn´t find the thread where to post videos of this kind. Forgive me (Admin) if I posted in the wrong neighborhood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=saWJUZ6TKNg#!
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« Reply #200 on: May 26, 2013, 07:43:16 PM »

Quote
Where in God's word does it say that Mary is:
queen?
our hope?
our intercessor?
our protectress?
Where does it say:
that she sees our distress?
that she can help us?
that she can feed us?
that she knows our offences?
that she can forgive sins?
that we have no other help but her?
that we have no other intercessor?
that we have no comforter than her?
That she can guard and protect us?

The Holy Spirit told me this.  Checkmate.
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« Reply #201 on: May 26, 2013, 07:53:18 PM »

Quote
Where in God's word does it say that Mary is:
queen?
our hope?
our intercessor?
our protectress?
Where does it say:
that she sees our distress?
that she can help us?
that she can feed us?
that she knows our offences?
that she can forgive sins?
that we have no other help but her?
that we have no other intercessor?
that we have no comforter than her?
That she can guard and protect us?

The Holy Spirit told me this.  Checkmate.

Pwned. 
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« Reply #202 on: May 26, 2013, 07:57:05 PM »

Forgive me for my bad jokes brother, sometimes I try and fail as hard Tongue

Better to try and fail at making jokes than to try and succeed at becoming one...there's nothing to forgive.  But if you insist, your penance is one economy class, round trip plane ticket to Sweden.  Tongue
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« Reply #203 on: May 26, 2013, 07:58:20 PM »

Quote
Are you suggesting that the other children she bore were likewise conceived?

Rachel, where in the Bible does it say that the Mother of God bore more children?
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« Reply #204 on: May 26, 2013, 09:48:47 PM »

Quote
Where in God's word does it say that Mary is:
queen?
our hope?
our intercessor?
our protectress?
Where does it say:
that she sees our distress?
that she can help us?
that she can feed us?
that she knows our offences?
that she can forgive sins?
that we have no other help but her?
that we have no other intercessor?
that we have no comforter than her?
That she can guard and protect us?
I would then say, where in Gods Word does it say we are to only use God's Word?

PP
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« Reply #205 on: May 27, 2013, 11:05:59 PM »

I'm starting to get the feeling that this whole "Do what the Holy Spirit is telling you" think is really a cover up for many peoples' personal feelings and emotions. After all, many people have believed that the voices inside of their heads were of "the Holy Spirit" or of some other religious thing  Wink

True, but how can it be proven that many of the so-called fathers of the Orthodox Church don't fall under the same category. How can we be assured that they were inspired by God when they began to write out the foundations of these sorts of Marion prayers and devotions? What if they were misguided by their own fancies and imaginations? or worse, totally diluted by pagan philosophy and mysticism, completely led astray from then true teachings of the apostles as reflected in Scripture? For that matter, how can we know the later reformers weren't being led by the Holy Spirit when they chose to throw out all of these extraordinary devotions to Mary?

I'm not saying this is how it is, I'd just like some clarity. Why is the Orthodox view better? How do we know?  
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« Reply #206 on: May 28, 2013, 12:30:46 AM »

I'm starting to get the feeling that this whole "Do what the Holy Spirit is telling you" think is really a cover up for many peoples' personal feelings and emotions. After all, many people have believed that the voices inside of their heads were of "the Holy Spirit" or of some other religious thing  Wink

True, but how can it be proven that many of the so-called fathers of the Orthodox Church don't fall under the same category. How can we be assured that they were inspired by God when they began to write out the foundations of these sorts of Marion prayers and devotions? What if they were misguided by their own fancies and imaginations? or worse, totally diluted by pagan philosophy and mysticism, completely led astray from then true teachings of the apostles as reflected in Scripture? For that matter, how can we know the later reformers weren't being led by the Holy Spirit when they chose to throw out all of these extraordinary devotions to Mary?

I'm not saying this is how it is, I'd just like some clarity. Why is the Orthodox view better? How do we know?  

All this presupposes that the Church was fatally led astray for 1500 years, only to be rescued by the reformers. It's the Great Apostasy fallacy, which makes a liar out of Christ Himself: Upon this rock (of faith) I will build My Church, and  the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
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« Reply #207 on: May 28, 2013, 12:39:57 AM »

I'm starting to get the feeling that this whole "Do what the Holy Spirit is telling you" think is really a cover up for many peoples' personal feelings and emotions. After all, many people have believed that the voices inside of their heads were of "the Holy Spirit" or of some other religious thing  Wink

True, but how can it be proven that many of the so-called fathers of the Orthodox Church don't fall under the same category. How can we be assured that they were inspired by God when they began to write out the foundations of these sorts of Marion prayers and devotions? What if they were misguided by their own fancies and imaginations? or worse, totally diluted by pagan philosophy and mysticism, completely led astray from then true teachings of the apostles as reflected in Scripture? For that matter, how can we know the later reformers weren't being led by the Holy Spirit when they chose to throw out all of these extraordinary devotions to Mary?

I'm not saying this is how it is, I'd just like some clarity. Why is the Orthodox view better? How do we know?  

All this presupposes that the Church was fatally led astray for 1500 years, only to be rescued by the reformers. It's the Great Apostasy fallacy, which makes a liar out of Christ Himself: Upon this rock (of faith) I will build My Church, and  the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Building upon this, it is also a matter of the reception of these texts by the Church.  Individual authors and hymnographers may compose prayers and hymns, but when they are incorporated into the Church's liturgical prayer, the Church bears witness that those compositions reflect her faith so accurately that we make their compositions our common prayer to God or, in this case, to the Mother of God.  We speak those prayers with one mouth and one heart; they become the voice of the Church.  There are lots of compositions that have not been received into the liturgy of the Church, just as there are lots of books that never made it into the NT.  Whether the "rejects" are Orthodox or not, we know for sure that the "winners" reflect the faith of the Church. 
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« Reply #208 on: May 28, 2013, 10:16:40 AM »

I'm starting to get the feeling that this whole "Do what the Holy Spirit is telling you" think is really a cover up for many peoples' personal feelings and emotions. After all, many people have believed that the voices inside of their heads were of "the Holy Spirit" or of some other religious thing  Wink

True, but how can it be proven that many of the so-called fathers of the Orthodox Church don't fall under the same category. How can we be assured that they were inspired by God when they began to write out the foundations of these sorts of Marion prayers and devotions? What if they were misguided by their own fancies and imaginations? or worse, totally diluted by pagan philosophy and mysticism, completely led astray from then true teachings of the apostles as reflected in Scripture? For that matter, how can we know the later reformers weren't being led by the Holy Spirit when they chose to throw out all of these extraordinary devotions to Mary?

I'm not saying this is how it is, I'd just like some clarity. Why is the Orthodox view better? How do we know?  

Well, it rather puts one in the uncomfortable position of having to decide precisely when the Church (you know, the Church that Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against?) went astray, became apostate - oh, and it might be nice to back it up with a little more than "because it doesn't agree with what I believe/have been taught."
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« Reply #209 on: May 28, 2013, 12:36:48 PM »

Quote
I'm starting to get the feeling that this whole "Do what the Holy Spirit is telling you" think is really a cover up for many peoples' personal feelings and emotions
+1,000,000.

Thats what it all boils down to. Emotion.
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« Reply #210 on: May 29, 2013, 04:58:08 AM »

Neo-Protestants like to wipe Mary off the books. That way, they don't have to have reverence for anyone except themselves.
Firstly no protestant wants to 'wipe Mary off the books.' No one is denying what the bible has to say about Mary. Where have I suggested that I reverence myself?

Quote
Even though it's the Bible that calls Mary 'the mother of my Lord' and says 'every generation shall call me blessed.'
Absolutely. I have no problem with the above.

Quote
Go figure.  Roll Eyes
I suggest you go figure where all your Mary worship came from. It is in direct contradiction to scripture that says we are to worship God alone. Both cannot be true. So either the bible is in error or your church. You have to make a decision - but there is error in one or the other. Both claim absolute truth yet this CANNOT be. So choose you this day whom you will believe and serve.

Take the claim that Mary can forgive sins. The bible is clear, only God can forgive sins. Indeed we read in scripture where the scribes called Jesus a blasphemer when he said to the paralytic, 'your sins are forgiven.'
So, the bible says God alone can forgive sins. The Orthodox church says God and Mary can forgive sins. Both CANNOT be true. One has to be in error. So which will you stake your eternal destiny on? Go figure.
Mark 2
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,  7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”




























 
 
 
 
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« Reply #211 on: May 29, 2013, 05:20:37 AM »

I suggest you go figure where all your Mary worship came from. It is in direct contradiction to scripture that says we are to worship God alone. Both cannot be true. So either the bible is in error or your church. You have to make a decision - but there is error in one or the other. Both claim absolute truth yet this CANNOT be. So choose you this day whom you will believe and serve.

Please, learn the difference between worship and veneration, already. Undecided
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« Reply #212 on: May 29, 2013, 06:56:43 AM »


I have asked:
Where in God's word does it say that Mary is:
queen?
our hope?
our intercessor?
our protectress?
Where does it say:
that she sees our distress?
that she can help us?
that she can feed us?
that she knows our offences?
that she can forgive sins?
that we have no other help but her?
that we have no other intercessor?
that we have no comforter than her?
That she can guard and protect us?

The Trisagion wishes to say that the Holy Spirit told him. Well does the Orthodox church wish to claim that the Holy Spirit would contradict himself?
The bible says:
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness



Let's take the reference to Mary being the 'queen of heaven.'
When we read in Jeremiah of reference to a queen of heaven it is in reference to paganism which Jeremiah condemns. God also says that he will share his glory with no-one.

Regarding the idea of Mary being our hope. This too is not scriptural. Our hope is in God alone.
1 Timothy 1:1
 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope
1 Peter 1:3
[ A Heavenly Inheritance ] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
1 Peter 1:13
[ Living Before God Our Father ] Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ
1 Peter 1:21
who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


Then the claim that Mary is not only 'our intercessor' but we have 'no other intercessor.'
This too is against scripture. Scripture tells us that there is only one intercessor between God and man and that person is Christ. So both cannot be true.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


The notion that Mary is our protectress and that she can guard and protect us is found nowhere in scripture. Instead scripture is full of references to God being our shield and protector.
Psalm 115:11
You who fear the Lord, trust in the Lord; He is their help and their shield.
Hebrews 13:6
So we may boldly say: “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?”


We are told to put on the whole armour of God for our protection:
Ephesians 6
13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,  15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;  16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.  17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God
 



that she sees our distress?
that she can help us?
that she can feed us?
that she knows our offences?

There is NOTHING in scripture to suggest that Mary did not die like everyone. Nowhere in scripture are we told that the dead can see us, help us or feed us.
Before Jesus left the earth he promised to send his holy Spirit to help us. Not the Holy Spirit plus Mum.


The notion that Mary can forgive sin is blasphemous. The bible is very clear that ONLY God can forgive sin.
Mark 2
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,  7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Acts 5:31
Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 13:38
Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace



Let's look at the claim that 'we have no comforter than her.' This is NOT what scripture says.
According to scripture it is the Holy Spirit who is our comforter.
John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


So these beliefs that the Orthodox hold about Mary are, at best not in scripture and at worst are directly in opposition to scripture. BOTH CANNOT BE TRUE. So choose you this day who you will believe and serve. For either God's word is in error or the Orthodox church is.




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« Reply #213 on: May 29, 2013, 07:14:59 AM »

I suggest you go figure where all your Mary worship came from. It is in direct contradiction to scripture that says we are to worship God alone. Both cannot be true. So either the bible is in error or your church. You have to make a decision - but there is error in one or the other. Both claim absolute truth yet this CANNOT be. So choose you this day whom you will believe and serve.

Please, learn the difference between worship and veneration, already. Undecided
That is pure semantics.

From the feast of the Dormition:

... she who is higher than the Cherubim hastened towards heaven. With them we venerate her as she intercedes for our souls...
 come, let us garland the Church with songs as the Ark of God goes to her rest...
 For today heaven unfolds its bosom as it receives the one who gave birth to Him whom nothing can contain...
 while she who gave birth to the Prince of life is translated from life to life. Let us all worship her as we beg: ‘Sovereign Lady, do not forget your ties of kinship with those who celebrate with faith your all-holy Dormition’...
 by your prayers you deliver our souls from death.


and also:

Priest: Our most gracious Queen, our hope, O Theotokos, Who receivest the orphaned and art the intercessor for the stranger; the joy of those in sorrow, protectress of the wronged, see our distress, see our affliction! Help us, for we are helpless. Feed us, for we are strangers and pilgrims. Thou knowest our offences; forgive them, and resolve them as Thou dost will. For we know no other help but Thee, no other intercessor, no gracious comforter, only Thee, O Theotokos to guard and protect us for ages of ages. Amen.

That is usurping Christ's place and claiming it for Mary. It is against scripture.

You cannot hold both to be correct because scripture and Orthodox doctrine  are in contradiction of each other. So you will have to choose which one you wish to put your faith in.
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« Reply #214 on: May 29, 2013, 07:17:37 AM »

Rachel, you so staunchly rail against any belief or teaching which is not in the Bible, which, of course, includes the NT. Was Apostle John a liar when he wrote this in Chapter 21 of his Gospel?

24This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
25And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.



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« Reply #215 on: May 29, 2013, 07:19:51 AM »

Quote
That is pure semantics
So the love you feel for your parents and the love you feel for your friends is pure semantics as well then?

Quote
Let us all worship her
English is a very inaccurate language. Nobody worships Mary (Latria), nor should we.

Its not semantics. Get educated in what you are talking about and come back.

PP
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« Reply #216 on: May 29, 2013, 07:37:11 AM »

Quote
Are you suggesting that the other children she bore were likewise conceived?

Rachel, where in the Bible does it say that the Mother of God bore more children?

Matthew 12:46
While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.
Matthew 13:55
Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?

Also you appear to wish to suggest that Joseph never consummated the marriage!
Matthew 1
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,  25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.[d] And he called His name Jesus.

Note also that Jesus is referred to as her firstborn son not her only son.
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« Reply #217 on: May 29, 2013, 07:41:55 AM »

And nowhere is it mentioned that those brothers were Mary's sons.

If she had other children, why would Jesus need to entrust her care to one of his disciples?
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« Reply #218 on: May 29, 2013, 07:46:54 AM »

Rachel, you so staunchly rail against any belief or teaching which is not in the Bible, which, of course, includes the NT. Was Apostle John a liar when he wrote this in Chapter 21 of his Gospel?

24This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
25And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.




I have no problem with this. But you wish to:
a] suggest that these  things would include things that contradict scripture, such as your doctrines regarding Mary. Do you have no concept of absolute truth? Two opposing ideas cannot both be true. If ONLY God can forgive sins then ipso facto Mary CANNOT.
b] I believe that it was the guidance of the Holy Spirit that decided what should be included in the bible. Therefore we can confidently put our faith in God's word. We should rightly question and reject any doctrine that does not agree with scripture.
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« Reply #219 on: May 29, 2013, 07:50:01 AM »

Rachel, you so staunchly rail against any belief or teaching which is not in the Bible, which, of course, includes the NT. Was Apostle John a liar when he wrote this in Chapter 21 of his Gospel?

24This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
25And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.




I have no problem with this. But you wish to:
a] suggest that these  things would include things that contradict scripture, such as your doctrines regarding Mary. Do you have no concept of absolute truth? Two opposing ideas cannot both be true. If ONLY God can forgive sins then ipso facto Mary CANNOT.
b] I believe that it was the guidance of the Holy Spirit that decided what should be included in the bible. Therefore we can confidently put our faith in God's word. We should rightly question and reject any doctrine that does not agree with scripture.

Yet the books which became the NT were written several decades after Christ trod the earth. How do you think the early Christians knew what was true belief, teaching and practice, if there was nothing written down for so long?
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« Reply #220 on: May 29, 2013, 07:50:24 AM »

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

This was directed to the apostles right after the resurrection of the Lord. My point would now be, in the uttermost clear text you wrote Rachel, how do you take this into consideration?

Only God can forgive sins, yet the apostles can = Contradiction in scripture.

I´m sorry dear sister, but you´re treating the orthodox church as if these things have been avoided or ignored. You´re blindfolding yourself with ideas that the orthodox church has never believed.

So now please, I asked you many times on topics of abortion and masturbation. With love and respect to you in any case, but you didn´t answer them by scripture. Just by saying "What´s the Holy spirit telling me". That was not what i asked for, so these 2 questions remain.

Now I ask about John 20:23, how can God only forgive sins and yet say that if the apostles forgive any sins, they´re forgiven?

The orthodox church got an answer to this and always had, which of course includes the blessed Mother.

But with a scriptural basis only, how do you explain that only God can forgive sins, but yet the apostles could?

Once again take notice: No theologyclass apart from scripture, as you did regarding abortion and masturbation. I use your standard for the sake of truth, you please do it as well.

1: Abortion and masturbation
2: Only God forgive sins and yet the apostles can.
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« Reply #221 on: May 29, 2013, 07:52:54 AM »

Quote
suggest that these  things would include things that contradict scripture, such as your doctrines regarding Mary. Do you have no concept of absolute truth? Two opposing ideas cannot both be true. If ONLY God can forgive sins then ipso facto Mary CANNOT
They dont contradict scripture. The 2 words are completely different. Just because you ignore that fact does not mean it is not valid.

As for forgiveness, read Mat. 18:18 and John 20 and get back to me about forgiveness of sins.

Quote
I believe that it was the guidance of the Holy Spirit that decided what should be included in the bible
Is this before or after Luther got some books removed? Who was right? Which group was guided by the Holy Spirit? It cant be both.

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« Reply #222 on: May 29, 2013, 08:00:56 AM »

And nowhere is it mentioned that those brothers were Mary's sons.
Matthew 13:
53 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, that He departed from there.  54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?  55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses,[h] Simon, and Judas?  56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”  57 So they were offended at Him.

Matthew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.  47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”  49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!  50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you wish to deny what the bible says?

Quote
If she had other children,
See above.
Quote
why would Jesus need to entrust her care to one of his disciples?
We are not told what his reason was. What you are clearly told is that he had brothers and sisters.
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #223 on: May 29, 2013, 08:05:22 AM »

Quote
The Trisagion wishes to say that the Holy Spirit told him. Well does the Orthodox church wish to claim that the Holy Spirit would contradict himself?
The bible says:
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
I fail to see how this verse in any way negates the Holy Spirit's direction in venerating the Theotokos.  No where in that verse does it say that ONLY Scripture is given by inspiration.

It has been commonly accepted not just by Catholic and Orthodox, but by the majority of Protestants throughout the ages that "the brothers" referenced there were children of Joseph and Jesus' half siblings.  Of course, I suppose you will tell us that the Holy Spirit has directed you differently.  Roll Eyes


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« Reply #224 on: May 29, 2013, 08:08:29 AM »

And nowhere is it mentioned that those brothers were Mary's sons.
Matthew 13:
53 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, that He departed from there.  54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?  55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses,[h] Simon, and Judas?  56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”  57 So they were offended at Him.

Matthew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.  47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”  49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!  50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you wish to deny what the bible says?

Quote
If she had other children,
See above.
Quote
why would Jesus need to entrust her care to one of his disciples?
We are not told what his reason was. What you are clearly told is that he had brothers and sisters.

Is this not the carpenter’s son?


So, Jesus must have been fathered by Joseph. It's there in the Bible, as plain as day!  Tongue

As for brothers and sisters, the opening word in many a sentence in the NT, especially the Epistles, begins with brethren (brothers). Either St Paul had many, many siblings, or the word brethren has more than one meaning.

Which meaning do you choose, Rachel?
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