Author Topic: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority  (Read 760 times)

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Offline Jy3pr6

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Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« on: February 14, 2013, 12:37:47 AM »
Hello everyone,

I'm having trouble understanding the Orthodox "method" of conciliar ratification. The RCC of course views it as necessitating the assent of the Roman pontiff, and claims that it has never accepted a heretical council and hence the gates of hell have never prevailed against.

While the interpretation of Matt. 16: 18 seems to me more reasonable from the Orthodox lens (that is that the rock is Peter's confession), this final objection seems to be the one most in favor of the RC position.

What is the "method" or litmus test if you will, that the EO use in accepting and ratifying a council; especially considering the councils that have reputably sanctioned heresy?

I would also appreciate elucidation regarding any other difficult questions I should be considering as a Catholic (Roman and Eastern).

Thank you all in advance.

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Offline Maria

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2013, 12:46:06 AM »
Are you currently a "cradle" Roman Catholic?

Or are you in the process of converting to Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy?
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Offline Jy3pr6

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2013, 01:03:57 AM »
I'm a cradle but became an agnostic then atheist very early on. So I consider myself a convert as of the summer of two years ago. My affinities and allegiances are to the Eastern Catholic Church (Melkite) however; theologically, ecclesiastically, philosophically etc. I side with them over the RC views.
"Rejoice today, both you who have fasted and you who have disregarded the fast... Christ is risen!"

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Offline Maria

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2013, 01:15:06 AM »
I'm a cradle but became an agnostic then atheist very early on. So I consider myself a convert as of the summer of two years ago. My affinities and allegiances are to the Eastern Catholic Church (Melkite) however; theologically, ecclesiastically, philosophically etc. I side with them over the RC views.

I too was a cradle RC Catholic, but was a Melkite for three years before converting to Orthodox Christianity.
My forefathers were originally Maronite Catholics who had converted to Roman Catholicism because they were embarrassed of their Eastern roots. My father was glad that I became a Melkite. He said that I had returned to my roots. He was even happier when I was received into the Greek Orthodox Church.
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Offline choy

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 01:35:09 AM »
I am a cradle RC as well, then UGCC for two years before starting this year as a catechumen in the OCA.

What have you read so far about the Seven Ecumenical Councils?

Offline Jy3pr6

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 01:44:17 AM »
Not much at all really. I haven't entered into many specificities as of yet. General concerns seeming to me to take precedence, the question regarding ratification in particular stood out.
"Rejoice today, both you who have fasted and you who have disregarded the fast... Christ is risen!"

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 02:01:33 AM »
If you don't know what's in them, why is the first priority to determine how they're ratified? Because I've always understood that they gain recognition as being ecumenical based on the faith that they present, i.e., their content being in conformation with earlier synods already recognized as ecumenical.

So I would guess that at least some basic familiarity with the councils under consideration might help clear at least some of the confusion away.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 02:02:28 AM by dzheremi »

Offline choy

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2013, 02:13:37 AM »
Not much at all really. I haven't entered into many specificities as of yet. General concerns seeming to me to take precedence, the question regarding ratification in particular stood out.

You'll figure that out when you learn a bit more about the Seven Ecumenical Councils.  How about listening to Deacon Michael Hyatt's podcast, "At the Intersection of East and West"?  He gives a good overview of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, and here you will see how conciliarity works.  It's at http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/eastwest

Offline Jy3pr6

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 02:17:30 AM »
I know a little about the council of Sardica, Nicea, Chalcedon I and Ephesus. Is there a good online resource or series of books which has these documents published?

Still, respectfully, I don't see the difficulty in answering the question. You seem to get close when you say that they "gain recognition" depending on their conformity to synods already considered ecumenical (and I'm assuming orthodox). Such an explanation does not necessitate particular knowledge of councils and synods and is of the nature I'm inquiring about.
"Rejoice today, both you who have fasted and you who have disregarded the fast... Christ is risen!"

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

Offline Jy3pr6

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2013, 02:18:42 AM »


You'll figure that out when you learn a bit more about the Seven Ecumenical Councils.  How about listening to Deacon Michael Hyatt's podcast, "At the Intersection of East and West"?  He gives a good overview of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, and here you will see how conciliarity works.  It's at http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/eastwest
[/quote]


Thanks Choy!
"Rejoice today, both you who have fasted and you who have disregarded the fast... Christ is risen!"

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

Offline mike

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2013, 04:38:59 AM »
Hello everyone,

I'm having trouble understanding the Orthodox "method" of conciliar ratification. The RCC of course views it as necessitating the assent of the Roman pontiff, and claims that it has never accepted a heretical council and hence the gates of hell have never prevailed against.

Honorius?

What is the "method" or litmus test if you will, that the EO use in accepting and ratifying a council; especially considering the councils that have reputably sanctioned heresy?

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Offline choy

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 04:54:42 AM »
Hello everyone,

I'm having trouble understanding the Orthodox "method" of conciliar ratification. The RCC of course views it as necessitating the assent of the Roman pontiff, and claims that it has never accepted a heretical council and hence the gates of hell have never prevailed against.

Honorius?

Bad example.  Honorius never convened a council nor infallibly declared anything.  My favorite example is Pope St. Martin.  He did convene a local council and taught Orthodox faith from that council, yet it was not automatically accepted by all the other Churches just because it was ratified by the Pope.  Just proof that at the time there was no such thing as Papal Supremacy and that Papal ratification of something that has been proven over time as the orthodox faith does not automatically mean the council is Ecumenical and all other bishops including the Patriarchs must give assent to it.

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 05:31:45 AM »
Dogmatic pronunciations of an Ecumenical Synod (Council) typically were based on scripture and should have been been within the general, . informal, understanding of the church, prior to the dispute that prompted the convening of the Synod.  Dogma became infallible upon acceptance by the greater church (clergy and laity) and ratification by a subsequent Synod.
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Possible RC Conv. h/ing problems w/ final conciliar authority
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 10:21:02 AM »
Hello everyone,

I'm having trouble understanding the Orthodox "method" of conciliar ratification. The RCC of course views it as necessitating the assent of the Roman pontiff, and claims that it has never accepted a heretical council and hence the gates of hell have never prevailed against.

Honorius?

Bad example.  Honorius never convened a council nor infallibly declared anything.  My favorite example is Pope St. Martin.  He did convene a local council and taught Orthodox faith from that council, yet it was not automatically accepted by all the other Churches just because it was ratified by the Pope.  Just proof that at the time there was no such thing as Papal Supremacy and that Papal ratification of something that has been proven over time as the orthodox faith does not automatically mean the council is Ecumenical and all other bishops including the Patriarchs must give assent to it.
Nobody "infallibly declared" anything until the 19th century.  ::)  :) I thought Honorius was a good example: if you dig up the bones of a pope who taught heresy and anathematize him, there's probably a good reason. 

Another good example would be Popes St. Leo and Vigilius. I did not know about St. Martin.

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