Author Topic: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque  (Read 4569 times)

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2013, 04:41:02 PM »
I was pretty appalled by this news and wanted to post it. Please, no EU for Turkey. Ever.

No EU for Turkey means that things are bound to continue from bad to worse for what's left of the Christian minority in that country. Besides, lots of Turks have already moved to Europe.

If they are doing well economically and agree to amend their ways with minorities, why not? It's not like Europe were a Christian polity any longer... Muslim communities are already flowering in Western European countries.

Turkey 2.0 is already part of the EU, Greece.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2013, 04:48:44 PM »
Yeah, I saw this last week.

Not surprising. Time to ban mosques in Greece, again...until WE get it back.

I have a better idea. Let's tear down the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem if Turks become courageous enough to do what they have long been dreaming of. If Hagia Sophia is turned into a mosque, the Dome of the Rock in Israel must be turned into ruins. The USA and Israel should join forces to realize this.   ;D

LOL! I don't think the Israelis have the guts for that. But it's nice to think about, anyway.

I gotta disagree with you there--I'm pretty sure the Israelis do, but the Americans would wimp-out and try to keep them from doing it. 
I don't think so, if Izzy actually went and did it, I'm sure the AIPAC's in Washington would stifle any resistance.

Besides, I'm sure the Israeli's could blast it away and blame it on one of Hamas's rockets gone awry.

Now wouldn't that be a twist of fate. ;D
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2013, 04:51:21 PM »
Time for another crusade?
Careful, these Orthodox on here will take your head off for using that word. :o
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Offline choy

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2013, 06:14:23 PM »
Time for another crusade?
Careful, these Orthodox on here will take your head off for using that word. :o

It's still on.  Like all offensive words, if spoken by someone from the same flock, it is not offensive.  So I guess if I revert to Eastern Catholicism I can use the "U" word again.  ;D

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2013, 06:29:00 PM »
I was pretty appalled by this news and wanted to post it. Please, no EU for Turkey. Ever.

No EU for Turkey means that things are bound to continue from bad to worse for what's left of the Christian minority in that country. Besides, lots of Turks have already moved to Europe.

If they are doing well economically and agree to amend their ways with minorities, why not? It's not like Europe were a Christian polity any longer... Muslim communities are already flowering in Western European countries.

I've heard this argument before, and it is intriguing but I kind of wonder how it works, given the reality that Europe is not a Christian polity. In today's political and religious climate in the West (meaning, in Europe and increasingly in the United States), in which Christians and Christianity are increasingly disrespected and the public profession and expression of Christianity is increasingly legislated out of existence/made legally irrelevant, how is it that incorporation of Turkey into the EU should make things better for Christians in Turkey? Because all of these people who hate Christianity in the EU will suddenly care so much about it in Turkey? Seems unrealistic to me. I have seen maybe half a dozen examples of Western European politicians truly standing up for Christians in Turkey (like YouTube sensation Austrian MP Ewald Stadler), but they are often treated as extremists and paranoid people for expressing their anger at Turkey's two-faced hypocrisy.

So, yeah...I don't really see how this is supposed to work. Are you European? Can you help me understand this?

+1

I'd only add that to say that "Muslim communities are already flowering in Western European countries." makes it sound so incredibly benign, and I suppose that, on the surface it may well be.  But with static or falling birth rates for non-Muslims in Europe and much higher birth rates for Muslims, well...it don't take no genius t'figger out how dat'll end up  ::).  (I can see this thread getting moved to "Politics", eh  ;D.)

Indeed, there have already been multiple attempts to blow up the magnificent Duomo of Bologna because it contains a fresco by Giotto that depicts Muhammad in hell. Eventually it will be destroyed. The other great cathedrals may end up like Hagia Sophia and turned into mosques if Muslims reach a critical mass of population in Europe later this century.

I've felt the tragedy of the loss of the great Hagia Sophia ever since I first read about it in this novel when I was 10:



In the book, a history professor and his two young friends in 1950s Massachusetts discover a time machine and travel back to Constantinople in 1453 in an attempt to save the city and Hagia Sophia by scaring off the Turks with various 20th-century fireworks.

I remember shedding tears over the massacre and desecration of the great church, and the book led me to read up everything I could about Byzantium, a passion that has continued for years and at one point almost brought me into the Orthodox Church. There are old pictures of me as an 11- or 12-year-old at family gatherings with a book by John Julius Norwich or Stephen Runciman in my arms.

I've dreamed of visiting Hagia Sophia and Constantinople ever since.

So the loss of Hagia Sophia, and the possibility of the Turks re-desecrating it, is personally painful to me, and thus I understand the anguish of the Orthodox over it. I try to explain to my fellow Catholics that it would be like St. Peter's Basilica or Notre-Dame-de-Chartres (!!!) getting turned into mosques, with all of their magnificent sculptures, holy images and stained glass windows smashed or covered up, with vulgar minarets erected around them and blasphemous Arabic phrases hung above where the altar used to be.

If the hard-liners in Turkey succeed in turning Hagia Sophia back into a mosque, you know what will happen to those surviving mosaics. Except this time they may not be merely whitewashed over.


Offline choy

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2013, 06:33:52 PM »
scaring off the Turks with various 20th-century fireworks.

But 20th century fireworks are exactly the same as the fireworks in the 1400s.  Unless the Turks never had any interaction with China or any other culture which may have fireworks at that time.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 06:34:08 PM by choy »

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2013, 07:14:29 PM »
scaring off the Turks with various 20th-century fireworks.

But 20th century fireworks are exactly the same as the fireworks in the 1400s.  Unless the Turks never had any interaction with China or any other culture which may have fireworks at that time.

I was being figurative with my use of the term "fireworks", though it was a harebrained scheme on the part of the professor.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2013, 09:58:00 PM »
Quote
Turkey is a secular state - Europe is a secular-minded confederation of states. Right now, things are considerably worse for the Christian minority in Turkey than they are for Christians in the EU.

Turkey is only a NOMINALLY secular state which is the reason our circumstances are worsening.

Precisely - what I'm arguing is that, if they join the EU, they'll be forced to become a genuinely secular state. And for the Christian minority that would be better than the way things are going now.

That would be an amazing precedent.

How can a country join the EU when they are militarily occupying another member of the EU: Cyprus?  Then there are the energy interests around Cyprus, Israel and Cyprus energy deals, Sarkozy raising a fuss that they still deny the genocides, the Kurds, and the rest of the laundry list of issues they'd have to address to be a member.  I thought they'd given up on joining the EU?

Interesting times, no doubt.

 

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2013, 10:24:19 PM »
I guess the Turks giveth (Halki), and the Turks taketh away (Hagia Sophia).
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2013, 06:18:56 AM »
I guess the Turks giveth (Halki), and the Turks taketh away (Hagia Sophia).
Or rather:

"I guess the Turks purport to giveth (Halki), and the Turks still taketh away (Hagia Sophia).
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Offline Tommelomsky

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2013, 07:57:53 AM »
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Offline psalm110

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2013, 08:22:12 AM »
I am not sure how that will happen turning this church into a mosque, isn't condemn in Islam in turning a church into a mosque ? Don't they first have to level it to the ground ?.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2013, 08:26:27 AM »
I am not sure how that will happen turning this church into a mosque, isn't condemn in Islam in turning a church into a mosque ? Don't they first have to level it to the ground ?.

Obviously not. The Church of the Holy Wisdom was immediately turned into a mosque in 1453, as I recall reading.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2013, 08:31:23 AM »
Who was the guy that suggest airlifting the Haggis Soapia? I think this would be a good time to do it.
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2013, 08:49:14 AM »
You're dreaming. They do not want any assimilation.

You have to admire someone, in order to want to become like him. If he treats you like dirt, then he can't set much of an example for you to follow, can he?

I believe most immigrants want to be assimilated - at least at a basic economical/material level. Otherwise, there would be no reason for them to leave their homeland and come to live among strangers.  

Other than the Muslims (and race seems to make little difference amongst them) I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. A lifetime spent living next to some of the largest Muslim communities in the UK shows me that they are rather different. They really do not seem to want assimilation in any way - unless by assimilation you mean that the native population should assimilate to them.

James
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2013, 08:51:06 AM »
I am not sure how that will happen turning this church into a mosque, isn't condemn in Islam in turning a church into a mosque ? Don't they first have to level it to the ground ?.

It's hard to read the Quran when your entire nation is composed of analphabetic shepherds and robbers.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2013, 09:05:10 AM »
Who was the guy that suggest airlifting the Haggis Soapia? I think this would be a good time to do it.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2013, 09:24:17 AM »
Other than the Muslims (and race seems to make little difference amongst them) I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. A lifetime spent living next to some of the largest Muslim communities in the UK shows me that they are rather different. They really do not seem to want assimilation in any way - unless by assimilation you mean that the native population should assimilate to them.

If they partly resist assimilation, it must be because they still believe in their God and view Westerners as godless. Otherwise, many of them seem to adapt to the country they live in - education, learning the language, getting decent jobs. Most Muslims in my hometown came here to study medicine and many stayed on to practice. Our Minister of Health until recently, Mr. Raed Arafat, is a well respected Muslim doctor of Palestinian origin.

When Western Europeans colonized different countries, they didn't assimilate much either, despite being a minority, did they?   
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 09:30:09 AM by Romaios »

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2013, 10:40:34 AM »
Other than the Muslims (and race seems to make little difference amongst them) I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. A lifetime spent living next to some of the largest Muslim communities in the UK shows me that they are rather different. They really do not seem to want assimilation in any way - unless by assimilation you mean that the native population should assimilate to them.

If they partly resist assimilation, it must be because they still believe in their God and view Westerners as godless. Otherwise, many of them seem to adapt to the country they live in - education, learning the language, getting decent jobs. Most Muslims in my hometown came here to study medicine and many stayed on to practice. Our Minister of Health until recently, Mr. Raed Arafat, is a well respected Muslim doctor of Palestinian origin.

When Western Europeans colonized different countries, they didn't assimilate much either, despite being a minority, did they?  

I think your view is rather different to mine because whereas I am familiar with the results of mass immigration from South Asia, you're familiar only with a comparative trickle of Muslim immigration for education and the like. There is nowhere in Romania where there is a Muslim community even close to the one in somewhere like Bradford. You really can't compare the two situations at all. And, having grown up amongst Sikhs and Hindus as well as Muslims, I'm quite certain that this is not a problem with immigrants coming from South Asia in general, but rather with those who follow Islam specifically.

And as for colonising other countries, you're right that the colonists generally made no bones about the fact that they wished to stamp their 'superior' culture on the one they were colonising. It seems to me that Muslim immigrants here often seem to share such a view. Maybe we should think of them as colonists instead?

James
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 10:41:29 AM by jmbejdl »
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2013, 10:57:05 AM »
Other than the Muslims (and race seems to make little difference amongst them) I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. A lifetime spent living next to some of the largest Muslim communities in the UK shows me that they are rather different. They really do not seem to want assimilation in any way - unless by assimilation you mean that the native population should assimilate to them.

If they partly resist assimilation, it must be because they still believe in their God and view Westerners as godless. Otherwise, many of them seem to adapt to the country they live in - education, learning the language, getting decent jobs. Most Muslims in my hometown came here to study medicine and many stayed on to practice. Our Minister of Health until recently, Mr. Raed Arafat, is a well respected Muslim doctor of Palestinian origin.

When Western Europeans colonized different countries, they didn't assimilate much either, despite being a minority, did they?  

I think your view is rather different to mine because whereas I am familiar with the results of mass immigration from South Asia, you're familiar only with a comparative trickle of Muslim immigration for education and the like. There is nowhere in Romania where there is a Muslim community even close to the one in somewhere like Bradford. You really can't compare the two situations at all. And, having grown up amongst Sikhs and Hindus as well as Muslims, I'm quite certain that this is not a problem with immigrants coming from South Asia in general, but rather with those who follow Islam specifically.

And as for colonising other countries, you're right that the colonists generally made no bones about the fact that they wished to stamp their 'superior' culture on the one they were colonising. It seems to me that Muslim immigrants here often seem to share such a view. Maybe we should think of them as colonists instead?

James

You may not be far from the truth.

I spent about 11 years in Leicester, one of them smack in the middle of the Muslim community.  For the most part the folks were very nice, though somewhat suspicious of the 2 Americans in their midst.  The only effort toward assimilation into British society that I could detect was, well...hmmm....oh yeah...Muslim youth drinking it up in the local pubs and having gang fights on the street.  Oy vey.
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Offline Balthasar

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2013, 11:35:26 AM »
Yeah, I saw this last week.

Not surprising. Time to ban mosques in Greece, again...until WE get it back.

I have a better idea. Let's tear down the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem if Turks become courageous enough to do what they have long been dreaming of. If Hagia Sophia is turned into a mosque, the Dome of the Rock in Israel must be turned into ruins. The USA and Israel should join forces to realize this.   ;D

Good idea! Sooner or later, it will be destroyed, alongside Mecca and its Kaaba.

Anyways, the future Vatican Pope, Muslim Peter son of the Turk (Turkson) will take care of it. ;)


Offline J Michael

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2013, 11:40:47 AM »
Yeah, I saw this last week.

Not surprising. Time to ban mosques in Greece, again...until WE get it back.

I have a better idea. Let's tear down the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem if Turks become courageous enough to do what they have long been dreaming of. If Hagia Sophia is turned into a mosque, the Dome of the Rock in Israel must be turned into ruins. The USA and Israel should join forces to realize this.   ;D

Good idea! Sooner or later, it will be destroyed, alongside Mecca and its Kaaba.

Anyways, the future Vatican Pope, Muslim Peter son of the Turk (Turkson) will take care of it. ;)



 ??? ???
Quote

Turkson was born in Wassa Nsuta in Western Ghana to a Methodist mother and a Catholic father.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Turkson

Unless you know the minds of all the members of the College of Cardinals and God's will for the Catholic Church.... ::)
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2013, 12:14:14 PM »
And as for colonising other countries, you're right that the colonists generally made no bones about the fact that they wished to stamp their 'superior' culture on the one they were colonising. It seems to me that Muslim immigrants here often seem to share such a view. Maybe we should think of them as colonists instead?

Maybe, although I'm not so sure they do it deliberately and programatically - as Western Europeans once did when colonizing them. 

Maybe it's some countries' unique karma to become colonized by Muslims.

I agree that the situation in Britain doesn't compare to the (restricted) phenomenon of Muslim immigration in Romania (our collective "karmas" probably do not compare either).

Offline J Michael

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2013, 12:55:14 PM »
And as for colonising other countries, you're right that the colonists generally made no bones about the fact that they wished to stamp their 'superior' culture on the one they were colonising. It seems to me that Muslim immigrants here often seem to share such a view. Maybe we should think of them as colonists instead?

Maybe, although I'm not so sure they do it deliberately and programatically - as Western Europeans once did when colonizing them. 

Maybe it's some countries' unique karma to become colonized by Muslims.

I agree that the situation in Britain doesn't compare to the (restricted) phenomenon of Muslim immigration in Romania (our collective "karmas" probably do not compare either).

Karma?  Orthodoxy?  ??? ???
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2013, 01:03:54 PM »
Karma?  Orthodoxy?  ??? ???

Do you think there is no connection between Moroccan and Algerian immigration to France, Pakistani or Indian immigration in Britain, people from Surinam or Indonesia immigrating to the Netherlands, hispanics immigrating to the US, etc. and those countries having had colonies there? This is the sort of 'karma' I am talking about and it's kind of hard to make sense of it any other way.   

If you prefer it in biblical language: "whatever a man shall sow, that also shall he reap" (Gal. 6:7).
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 01:10:26 PM by Romaios »

Offline sheenj

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2013, 01:09:01 PM »
And as for colonising other countries, you're right that the colonists generally made no bones about the fact that they wished to stamp their 'superior' culture on the one they were colonising. It seems to me that Muslim immigrants here often seem to share such a view. Maybe we should think of them as colonists instead?

Maybe, although I'm not so sure they do it deliberately and programatically - as Western Europeans once did when colonizing them. 

Maybe it's some countries' unique karma to become colonized by Muslims.

I agree that the situation in Britain doesn't compare to the (restricted) phenomenon of Muslim immigration in Romania (our collective "karmas" probably do not compare either).

Karma?  Orthodoxy?  ??? ???

It may sound funny to you but the Orthodox (and Catholics) in India do use the term Karma with its original meaning of "Action" or "Work".

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2013, 01:12:03 PM »
Maybe, although I'm not so sure they do it deliberately and programatically - as Western Europeans once did when colonizing them.  

Where was that exactly? Nowhere did Europeans drive Muslims out of their countries. There is literally not a square centimetre of Muslim land 500-400-200 years ago that is now not Muslim land (except, some people say Israel. But that is really like modern Americans being jealous of an indian reservation). The exact opposite is true though. They've expanded and further eradicated the pre-Muslim populations of their countries, especially in the past 15 years.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 01:13:36 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2013, 01:15:30 PM »
Karma?  Orthodoxy?  ??? ???

Do you think there is no connection between Moroccan and Algerian immigration to France, Pakistani or Indian immigration in Britain, people from Surinam or Indonesia immigrating to the Netherlands, hispanics immigrating to the US, etc. and those countries having had colonies there? This is the sort of 'karma' I am talking about and it's kind of hard to make sense of it any other way.   

If you prefer it in biblical language: "whatever a man shall sow, that also shall he reap" (Gal. 6:7).

If you're going the route of 'karma' look at the reasons France invaded North Africa. A few years of French rule was preceded by 1000 years of North Africans invading Europe and capturing people in slave raids.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2013, 01:18:54 PM »
And as for colonising other countries, you're right that the colonists generally made no bones about the fact that they wished to stamp their 'superior' culture on the one they were colonising. It seems to me that Muslim immigrants here often seem to share such a view. Maybe we should think of them as colonists instead?

Maybe, although I'm not so sure they do it deliberately and programatically - as Western Europeans once did when colonizing them. 

Maybe it's some countries' unique karma to become colonized by Muslims.

I agree that the situation in Britain doesn't compare to the (restricted) phenomenon of Muslim immigration in Romania (our collective "karmas" probably do not compare either).

Karma?  Orthodoxy?  ??? ???

It may sound funny to you but the Orthodox (and Catholics) in India do use the term Karma with its original meaning of "Action" or "Work".

I'm aware of the original meaning.  What I'm not clear on is whether you are using it that way or not.  But...never mind, it is after all an almost irrelevant digression.
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline Romaios

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2013, 01:26:04 PM »
If you're going the route of 'karma' look at the reasons France invaded North Africa. A few years of French rule was preceded by 1000 years of North Africans invading Europe and capturing people in slave raids.

From the Carmina Burana:

    Sors immanis                        
    et inanis,                              
    rota tu volubilis,                    
    status malus,                        
    vana salus                            
    semper dissolubilis,                  
    obumbrata                              
    et velata
    michi quoque niteris;
    nunc per ludum
    dorsum nudum
    fero tui sceleris.
    . . . . . . . . . .
    Fortune rota volvitur;
    descendo minoratus;
    alter in altum tollitur;
    nimis exaltatus
    rex sedet in vertice
    caveat ruinam!

    

    "Fate - monstrous
    and empty,
    you whirling wheel,
    status is bad,
    well-being is vain
    always may melt away,
    shadowy
    and veiled
    you plague me too;
    now through the game
    bare backed
    I bear your villainy.
    . . . . . . . . .
    The wheel of Fortune turns;
    I go down, demeaned;
    another is carried to the height;
    far too high up
    sits the king at the summit -
    let him beware ruin!"

    Source

    And here's some Orff to make it sound better.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 01:34:37 PM by Romaios »

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2013, 01:26:58 PM »
I am not sure how that will happen turning this church into a mosque, isn't condemn in Islam in turning a church into a mosque ? Don't they first have to level it to the ground ?.

Remember Muhammad, who turned Hubal's pagan temple to Allah's house when he conquered Mecca. Muslims who turn temples of different faiths into mosques after the Islamic conquest actually follow Muhammad's practice.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2013, 01:37:05 PM »
If you're going the route of 'karma' look at the reasons France invaded North Africa. A few years of French rule was preceded by 1000 years of North Africans invading Europe and capturing people in slave raids.

From the Carmina Burana:

    Sors immanis                         
    et inanis,                             
    rota tu volubilis,                     
    status malus,                         
    vana salus                             
    semper dissolubilis,                 
    obumbrata                             
    et velata
    michi quoque niteris;
    nunc per ludum
    dorsum nudum
    fero tui sceleris.
    . . . . . . . . . .
    Fortune rota volvitur;
    descendo minoratus;
    alter in altum tollitur;
    nimis exaltatus
    rex sedet in vertice
    caveat ruinam!

   

    "Fate - monstrous
    and empty,
    you whirling wheel,
    status is bad,
    well-being is vain
    always may melt away,
    shadowy
    and veiled
    you plague me too;
    now through the game
    bare backed
    I bear your villainy.
    . . . . . . . . .
    The wheel of Fortune turns;
    I go down, demeaned;
    another is carried to the height;
    far too high up
    sits the king at the summit -
    let him beware ruin!"

    Source

I love "Carmina Burana".  A "celebration" of earthly passions worthy of the most debauched of us.  But the music is fantastic!
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Romaios

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2013, 01:42:03 PM »
But...never mind, it is after all an almost irrelevant digression.

Almost, but for the words of Holy Elders like St. Cosmas the Aetolian, who viewed the Turk as "God's hound" and the Muslim yoke as punishment for the sins of the Orthodox. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 01:45:10 PM by Romaios »

Offline J Michael

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2013, 01:48:30 PM »
But...never mind, it is after all an almost irrelevant digression.

Almost, but for the words of Holy Elders like St. Cosmas the Aetolian, who viewed the Turk as "God's hound" and the Muslim yoke as punishment for the sins of the Orthodox. 

 ::)  I meant the discussion about the usage of the word "karma".

One can take the view that ALL of our sufferings, Turks and other Muslims included, are God's "punishment" (or reprimand) for our sins.
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2013, 01:51:47 PM »
I am not sure how that will happen turning this church into a mosque, isn't condemn in Islam in turning a church into a mosque ? Don't they first have to level it to the ground ?.

Remember Muhammad, who turned Hubal's pagan temple to Allah's house when he conquered Mecca. Muslims who turn temples of different faiths into mosques after the Islamic conquest actually follow Muhammad's practice.

Don't they believe it was originally built by Abraham though?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 01:52:29 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2013, 01:57:19 PM »
One can take the view that ALL of our sufferings, Turks and other Muslims included, are God's "punishment" (or reprimand) for our sins.

The Byzantines could have evangelized the Turks, like St. Cyrill and Methodius had done with the Slavs - instead they just used them as mercenaries in their power games. No one cared what they believed in.

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2013, 02:00:49 PM »
One can take the view that ALL of our sufferings, Turks and other Muslims included, are God's "punishment" (or reprimand) for our sins.

The Byzantines could have evangelized the Turks, like St. Cyrill and Methodius had done with the Slavs - instead they just used them as mercenaries in their power games. No one cared what they believed in.

woulda, coulda, shoulda.  Oh well.
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Romaios

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2013, 02:05:21 PM »
woulda, coulda, shoulda.  Oh well.

O well - not much use crying over spilled milk (the Hagia Sophia), I guess... We still do, though, don't we?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 02:05:50 PM by Romaios »

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2013, 02:27:13 PM »
The Byzantines could have evangelized the Turks, like St. Cyrill and Methodius had done with the Slavs - instead they just used them as mercenaries in their power games. No one cared what they believed in.

Given how much they drink, even as Muslims, I'm sure they'd have prefered it.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2013, 02:29:01 PM »
I am not sure how that will happen turning this church into a mosque, isn't condemn in Islam in turning a church into a mosque ? Don't they first have to level it to the ground ?.

Remember Muhammad, who turned Hubal's pagan temple to Allah's house when he conquered Mecca. Muslims who turn temples of different faiths into mosques after the Islamic conquest actually follow Muhammad's practice.

Don't they believe it was originally built by Abraham though?

Yes, they do.  ;)

Yet there is no evidence for this claim and the Cube had been used as Hubal's temple until Muhammad. Muhammad was such a nationalist Arab leader that he preferred doing homage in the direction of a pagan temple full of idols to praying in the direction of Jerusalem until he conquered Mecca.  ;D
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 02:31:18 PM by Theophilos78 »
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2013, 02:34:26 PM »
Don't they believe it was originally built by Abraham though?

They believe it was originally built by Adam as the first place of worship, then rebuilt by Abraham.

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2013, 02:37:34 PM »
woulda, coulda, shoulda.  Oh well.

O well - not much use crying over spilled milk (the Hagia Sophia), I guess... We still do, though, don't we?

Well...we can't undo what's been done.  We can, however, be pro-active and do something to maybe get back the Hagia Sophia.  But, maybe it's God's punishment for our sins that we never get it back.
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Agabus

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2013, 02:42:18 PM »
It's just a building.

The number of revenge fantasies against Muslims I see percolating through these threads make me wonder if I have fundamentally misunderstood Christianity.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2013, 03:20:51 PM »
Don't they believe it was originally built by Abraham though?

They believe it was originally built by Adam as the first place of worship, then rebuilt by Abraham.

Late Muslim tradition teaches so, but this piece of information does not occur in the Qur'an. The writer of the Qur'an attributed the construction of the building to Abraham and Ishmael (Surah 2:217), not to Adam.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2013, 04:11:46 PM »
One can take the view that ALL of our sufferings, Turks and other Muslims included, are God's "punishment" (or reprimand) for our sins.

The Byzantines could have evangelized the Turks, like St. Cyrill and Methodius had done with the Slavs...

Well, there are a bunch of Turks now. Why don't you give it a try yourself?
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