OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 22, 2014, 05:20:30 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Armenians and Saint Severus of Antioch...  (Read 4107 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Fortunatus
Son of Antony
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 84


'If thou wilt be perfect...'


WWW
« on: January 12, 2005, 04:15:51 PM »

+Irini nem ehmot

PiKhristos afmasf!

Hello - I was wondering if anyone here can explain the view of the Armenian Orthodox in respect to Saint Severus? I have seen sites (some linked from forums here) that include his articles and give him the title of Saint, but I have seen references that also say that the Armenians reject him wholly. Is there a history to their view, or are one view of the sources just plain wrong?

Thanks kindlly.

Please remember me in your prayers.
Logged

Agape,
         Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!
"A man's life or death cometh from his neighbour; if we benefit our brother we benefit ourselves, and if we offend him we sin against God." - The Great Abba Antony
Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2005, 06:49:53 PM »

Dear Fortunatus,

To my limited knowledge:  Severus is not a formal Saint on the Armenian Church calendar.  I suppose he may be considered a Saint by individual Armenians.  If he is canonized in another Oriental Orthodox Church, I'm sure our Church would recognize this local canonization as valid.  His teachings certainly impacted the "Mia-Physite" Christology of our Church.  Some teachings attributed to Severus maintained by later "Severians" were condemned in a joint Council by the Syriac and Armenian Orthodox Churches while not at all condeming Severus himself.

I hope this helps.  I'll see what else I can find.
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2005, 07:11:21 PM »

This thread is MOST imteresting to me. Please encourage more input.

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,230



« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2005, 09:28:42 PM »

Dear Fortunatus,

To my limited knowledge: Severus is not a formal Saint on the Armenian Church calendar. I suppose he may be considered a Saint by individual Armenians. If he is canonized in another Oriental Orthodox Church, I'm sure our Church would recognize this local canonization as valid. His teachings certainly impacted the "Mia-Physite" Christology of our Church. Some teachings attributed to Severus maintained by later "Severians" were condemned in a joint Council by the Syriac and Armenian Orthodox Churches while not at all condeming Severus himself.

I hope this helps. I'll see what else I can find.
St.Severes is one of the most influential theologians in the history of OO after Chalcedon. Sisters churches do not have to have the same saints, but an agreement on teachings would be indeed helpful. The fact that some of his teachings were rejected comes as a surprise to me. It would be appreciated if someone knows which letters of this great saint were condemned or found at fault by the Armenian Church.
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
Fortunatus
Son of Antony
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 84


'If thou wilt be perfect...'


WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2005, 12:19:45 PM »

+Irini nem ehmot

Dear Ghazaros,

Just to clarify what I understood from you for the sake of where this could potentially lead - you are saying that some followers of Severus or so called "Severians" later had their own teachings which they accused Severus of teaching. These are the teachings that are rejected jointly (a significant fact) with the Syrians... Is that correct? This in opposed to the suggestion that there are contents of his writing that were later rejected jointly...

Thanks for your help, and I am looking forward to more information.

Please remember me in your prayers.
Logged

Agape,
         Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!
"A man's life or death cometh from his neighbour; if we benefit our brother we benefit ourselves, and if we offend him we sin against God." - The Great Abba Antony
paul2004
Paul
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 314

OC.net


« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2005, 06:21:15 PM »

Dear Fortunatus,

To my limited knowledge: Severus is not a formal Saint on the Armenian Church calendar. I suppose he may be considered a Saint by individual Armenians. If he is canonized in another Oriental Orthodox Church, I'm sure our Church would recognize this local canonization as valid.


I know that he is saint in the Ethiopian, Coptic, Indian and Syrian Churches.  A saint accepted in the OO communion need not be in the calendar of all OO Churches. For example St. Diascoros is not in the Indian calendar, though he is understood as a saint in liturgy and other texts. There are also local saintsin India, not included in any other OO calendar.  Not included in the calendar is not a criteria. Check also other texts of the Church.

Also, I have read text from Syrian tradition which blames Armenian church for not using water in wine and using unleavened bread. At one time there was tension between Syrian and Armenian churches. These minor differences of a wordly kind will be always there. But the unity is understood as a unity in the confession of faith.

-Paul



Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2005, 12:48:00 AM »

paul2004,
By way of our forum's new rules for this board, I can't directly comment on the import of your post above; but it has major impact in, let me say, ecumenical issues. I was not aware of these points. Thanks,

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,820


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2005, 01:23:22 PM »

Hi,

I'm new here and I have no idea if I am posting this correctly, so bear with me.

With regard to St. Severus and the Armenian Church, the answer can be found in Fr. Samuel's book, The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined.  On pages 167-168 of the edition I have, Fr. Samuel points out that the Armenian Church for a while was influenced by Julianism, the heresy which Justinian adopted toward the end of his life.  Since St. Severus had condemned Julianism, the Armenian Church initially condemned St. Severus (this I am getting from The Coucil of Chalcedon and the Armenian Church, by Catholicos Karekin Sarkissian, page 215.) However, Fr. Samuel writes that there was a council held in Armenia in 726 which abandoned Julianism and accepted Severus as a saint.

I hope this helps,
Salpy
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 02:30:19 AM by Salpy » Logged

Fortunatus
Son of Antony
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 84


'If thou wilt be perfect...'


WWW
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2005, 11:09:03 PM »

+Irini nem ehmot

Dear Salpy,

It does indeed! I have that book right beside me and completely forgot that it was discussed! Smiley

Re: some of the posts above - it was not his addition in the calendars that bothered me - there are many saints we have not put into our Coptic Synaxarium though we accept to be saints and call them such - but rather that they might condemn Severus or any of his teachings. Since this has been clarified, my mind is at ease. Smiley

Please pray for me...
Logged

Agape,
         Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!
"A man's life or death cometh from his neighbour; if we benefit our brother we benefit ourselves, and if we offend him we sin against God." - The Great Abba Antony
paul2004
Paul
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 314

OC.net


« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2005, 12:51:06 PM »

Hi Salpy, Thank you. That cleared my doubt.

There are more examples like this. St. John Chrysostom was condemned by the Alexandrian Church. But later his name was included in the calendar of saints by St. Cyril.

-Paul
Logged
Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2005, 06:50:32 PM »

+Irini nem ehmot
Dear Ghazaros, Just to clarify what I understood from you for the sake of where this could potentially lead - you are saying that some followers of Severus or so called "Severians" later had their own teachings which they accused Severus of teaching. These are the teachings that are rejected jointly (a significant fact) with the Syrians... Is that correct? ...Please remember me in your prayers.

This is exactly right.  Thank you for clarifying my point.
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2005, 06:57:57 PM »

I know that he is saint in the Ethiopian, Coptic, Indian and Syrian Churches. A saint accepted in the OO communion need not be in the calendar of all OO Churches.

You're right. That's why I said: "If he is canonized in another Oriental Orthodox Church, I'm sure our Church would recognize this local canonization as valid."

Also, I have read text from Syrian tradition which blames Armenian church for not using water in wine and using unleavened bread. At one time there was tension between Syrian and Armenian churches. These minor differences of a wordly kind will be always there. But the unity is understood as a unity in the confession of faith.

reply: I couldn't agree with you more.
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2005, 07:24:13 PM »

Dear Salpy,

Paree Yegar!  Welcome to the forum, sister.  Its nice to not be the only Armenian here, anymore. Smiley  I think you'll find this to be a fine place to discuss our beloved Orthodox Faith with many faithful brethren.

Btw, do you know where I can obtain a copy of Fr. Samuel's book?
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,820


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2005, 08:34:07 PM »

Ghazaros,

Thank you for your warm welcome.  u]The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined[/u] is available through amazon.com.  The author's full name is Father V.C. Samuel.  It's a great book.

I have to compliment you on your wonderful website.  It has lots of good reading.  Also your church's website is great.  I recently ordered some of the icon tiles your church is selling.  You must have a beautiful place to worship if those icons are representative of what is inside.

Salpy
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 02:32:08 AM by Salpy » Logged

Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2005, 09:51:58 PM »

Dear Salpy,

Thanks for your kind words on the site and for the book info.  St. John's is truly a beautiful Temple of God.  Everytime I hear the words in the prayer of St. John Chrysostom at the end of the Divine Liturgy "Sanctify those who have greeted in love the beauty of Thy house..." I think to myself, "that's me," because I truly have a great appreciation for the gift of worshipping God in such a beautiful example of an Armenian Church.  May God bless those who sacrificed to build it.
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
Irish Melkite
Information Mongeror
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite Greek-Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Posts: 988


WWW
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2005, 08:36:50 AM »

I have to compliment you on your wonderful website. It has lots of good reading.

Salpy,

Be certain to check Bill's site regularly. Just when you can't imagine what else he can add to the incredible collection of materials that he already has posted there, you surf into it and there's even more Grin

Many years,

Neil, a long-standing and unabashed fan of Looys Kreesdose
« Last Edit: January 18, 2005, 08:37:27 AM by Irish Melkite » Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2005, 07:04:06 PM »

Thanks for the promo Neil.  I'll send you your money later. Smiley
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
Irish Melkite
Information Mongeror
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite Greek-Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Posts: 988


WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2005, 12:54:46 PM »

Quote
Thanks for the promo Neil. I'll send you your money later.

Bill,

In dollars not drams like the last time, please Grin

Many years,

Neil
« Last Edit: January 21, 2005, 12:55:01 PM by Irish Melkite » Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2005, 03:56:37 AM »


...details... you got it, Neil.  Grin

Btw, I just ordered the book our sister Salpy recommended on Chalcedon.  I look forward to reading it.
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
Yeznik
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2005, 06:17:16 PM »

Here is some more information I found out;



Some sources state that St. Severus might have had pro-Chalcedonian theology, this might have been the reason the Armenian Church anathematized him for a period of time.



Here are some sources;



Yet despite his opposition to Chalcedon he always remained as tolerant and irenic as possible, being willing even to accept the phrase 'in two natures' as long as the union of Divinity and humanity in Christ was confessed. Yet the Eastern Orthodox have accused St Severus of being both a Nestorian and a Eutychian and the latter Eastern Orthodox councils have anathematised him together with St Dioscorus.



http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/The_Orthodox_Christology_of_St._Severus_of_Antioch





A more moderate Monophysitism was put forward by Severus (c. 465 - 538), patriarch of Antioch. It was less rigid and in many ways differed only nominally from the doctrines of the Council of Chalcedon.



http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/monophys.htm





Regarding the Armenian Church and Julianism;



There were also various theological trends in Syriac Christianity, namely the Severian (Severus of Antioch - moderate monophysitism) and Julianist (Julian of Halicarnassus - Aphthartodocetic) christological schools which found echoes in different parts of Armenia1. Yet, the Armenian Church as such maintained its anti-Chalcedonian orientation unaltered and its independence and integrity unshaken.



8th century, with the famous Council of Manzikert was indeed a highly important landmark in the history of the ecumenical relationship between the two Churches (Armenian and Syrian).


http://www.orthodoxunity.org/article08.html



It could be possible that since the Armenian Church anathematized St. Severus of Antioch for that specific time period they were erroneously by default seen as Julianists.





Here is an excerpt from — The Council of Chalcedon and the Armenian Church — written by Catholicos Karekin Sarkissian;



In fact Nerses of Bagrevand (547-57), while answering an official letter addressed to him by the Syrian Christians in the Persian Empire, and after having consecrated their bishop in the person of Abdisoy, tells them that their faith is in accord with the faith of the Church of Armenian and that his Church also anathematizes Nestorius, Diodore(of Tarsus), Theodore(of Mopsuestia), Barsauma, Theodoret(of Cypress), the Council of Chalcedon, the Tome of Leo, Apollonarius, Eutyches and Severus (of Antioch).



Now, St. Severus was also condemned in later councils, even though the Armenian Church anathematized St. Severus for a period of time, she still ordained a Syrian clergy. The Armenian Church and the Syrian Church, even though in disagreement for several hundred years, did not create a schism or separation from each other similar to the schism between the western churches and us.
Logged
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,820


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2005, 11:39:06 PM »

Hi Yeznik,

Welcome to the forum!

Your theory is an interesting one.  I hadn't thought of that possibility.  I was recently addressing the Armenian Church's brush with Julianism on another forum.  I was, among other things, grumbling about the lack of modern resources on the subject, or on Armenian Church theology in general.  It's not that nothing has been written on the subject, but very little has been written, and a lot of it is not readily available to the average lay person like myself.  I'm hoping and praying that will change soon.

Again, welcome!
Logged

Yeznik
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2005, 03:25:17 PM »

Thank you for the welcome Salpy,

Which other forum(s) was this the topic of conversation? It is hard to find texts in English regarding the theology of the Church; most of the theology are in the Sharagans. If you are interested I can recommend some books/website in English for resources.
Logged
Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2006, 01:56:18 AM »

Yeznik,

I haven't been around in a while, but I would like to welcome you just the same.  Its great to meet other commited Armenian Orthodox Christians.
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
Yeznik
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2006, 04:24:10 PM »

Yeznik,

I haven't been around in a while, but I would like to welcome you just the same.  Its great to meet other commited Armenian Orthodox Christians.

Thank you for the warm welcome.
Logged
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2006, 12:08:53 PM »

If you are interested I can recommend some books/website in English for resources.

I am certainly interested.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
Tags: Armenian Church St. Severus Julianism 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.088 seconds with 52 queries.