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Monk Vasyl
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« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2013, 09:50:40 AM » |
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He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.
What further need to we have of witnesses?
A layman wields the power of the Councils to anathematize hierarchs? By Crom, I didn't realize we held such power! Be careful using a fictional pagan deity or you might also get anathematized.  |
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The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
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Hinterlander
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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2013, 10:02:43 AM » |
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This reminds me hearing a Protestant Reformed minister proclaiming the Christian Reformed Church to be apostate.
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Ebor
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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2013, 11:38:12 AM » |
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Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox.
Not trying to be difficult or anything, but since there is no real source for the "writing" from 1984 in either the OP or the brief video on YouTube, does anyone know if the Metropolitan actually did write something on this and if so where? Or as they say on Wikis "Citation needed".  |
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis
The Katana of Reasoned Discussion
For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2013, 09:14:28 PM » |
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He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.
What further need to we have of witnesses?
A layman wields the power of the Councils to anathematize hierarchs? By Crom, I didn't realize we held such power! Be careful using a fictional pagan deity or you might also get anathematized. What? |
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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Deep Roots
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« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2013, 09:16:12 PM » |
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LOL
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Peace.
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Nephi
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Ecumenism Lite
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« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2013, 09:18:32 PM » |
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What?
Crom is a fictional deity in Robert E. Howard's world most famous for Conan the Barbarian. I'm glad he knew what it was at least. I was afraid nobody would.  |
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2013, 09:23:18 PM » |
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What?
Crom is a fictional deity in Robert E. Howard's world most famous for Conan the Barbarian. I'm glad he knew what it was at least. I was afraid nobody would. Not sure what that had to do with what I wrote. |
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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Nephi
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Ecumenism Lite
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« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2013, 09:25:27 PM » |
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Not sure what that had to do with what I wrote.
When I said "by Crom?" |
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Punch
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« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2013, 12:00:40 AM » |
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Not sure what that had to do with what I wrote.
When I said "by Crom?" An oath to a false god. Anathema! |
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God did not create man equal. Samuel Colt made man equal. Blessed be the Peacemaker.
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William
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« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2013, 01:26:32 AM » |
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I was under the impression that giving communion to anyone under an anathema is in violation of the canons, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding it.
That's correct. The double standard is mostly an emotional one, like in Gebre's post. |
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A beard covers many chins. - Tallitot
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KShaft
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« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2013, 02:25:12 AM » |
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The Ecumenical Councils used the term Monophysites. Yet they never once described a Christology that the Orientals actually believed in. Wow. So the council was wrong and Severus was right huh? Roger that... |
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Kerdy
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« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2013, 02:36:55 AM » |
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I have pretty much ignored this thread based merely off the title. Now I wish my curiosity had not gotten the better of me.  |
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"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr ( c.160 )
"we recognize that the war is ultimately spiritual rather than carnal." - Gebre Menfes Kidus
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2013, 04:00:16 AM » |
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Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox.
Not trying to be difficult or anything, but since there is no real source for the "writing" from 1984 in either the OP or the brief video on YouTube, does anyone know if the Metropolitan actually did write something on this and if so where? Or as they say on Wikis "Citation needed". Such a comment coming from his eminence would not surprise me, considering: 1) how friendly the EP has been with various groups since the early 20th century, sometimes even outright acknowledging that the sacraments of Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. are grace-filled; 2) how Orthodoxy has fluctuated on this generally; and 3) how he has let slip other statements over the years that he had to then go back and clarify and interpret in an Orthodox manner. But I do agree that, if a real conversation is to be made, it should be based on a verifiable quote and not hearsay. Now, if only I knew where I could find a reference proving or disproving the claim... |
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Michał Kalina
proud Podlachian Belarusian parajournalistic engineer in spe
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OC.net's trickster
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« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2013, 04:37:11 AM » |
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I can testify he said he wouldn't give communion to Roman Catholics. I heard this myself.
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.  Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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Nephi
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Ecumenism Lite
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« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2013, 09:31:14 AM » |
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Wow. So the council was wrong and Severus was right huh? Roger that...
What? The councils not condemning Miaphysite Christology and the councils being wrong are not necessarily linked statements. |
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Ebor
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« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2013, 12:04:30 PM » |
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Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox.
Not trying to be difficult or anything, but since there is no real source for the "writing" from 1984 in either the OP or the brief video on YouTube, does anyone know if the Metropolitan actually did write something on this and if so where? Or as they say on Wikis "Citation needed". Such a comment coming from his eminence would not surprise me, considering: 1) how friendly the EP has been with various groups since the early 20th century, sometimes even outright acknowledging that the sacraments of Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. are grace-filled; 2) how Orthodoxy has fluctuated on this generally; and 3) how he has let slip other statements over the years that he had to then go back and clarify and interpret in an Orthodox manner. But I do agree that, if a real conversation is to be made, it should be based on a verifiable quote and not hearsay. Now, if only I knew where I could find a reference proving or disproving the claim... Exactly so, Asteriktos. The OP and the video, having stated that the Metropolitan wrote something without giving a source, lack any proof for the accusation and therefore should not be trusted as accurate until such time as it is given It is, as you wrote only hearsay until then. |
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis
The Katana of Reasoned Discussion
For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
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Keble
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« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2013, 10:59:18 PM » |
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He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy. You may erase him from your diptychs, but since you are not a bishop the erasure is of little import. |
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mabsoota
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Kyrie eleison
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« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2013, 03:04:10 PM » |
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fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).
he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.
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Nathanael
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« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2013, 03:23:12 PM » |
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Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema. You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented. |
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The helping of others, the giving of alms, and all external goods don’t calm the arrogance of the heart. Humility of the mind, the pain of repentence and the breaking of the will, however, humble the proud spirit. -Elder Joseph the Hesychast
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2013, 03:34:43 PM » |
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Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema. You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented. I saw a priest in my parish (GOA) give Communion to an Armenian lady. No one made a fuss about it. |
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
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Nathanael
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« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2013, 03:38:03 PM » |
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Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema. You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented. I saw a priest in my parish (GOA) give Communion to an Armenian lady. No one made a fuss about it. But we're talking about Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. If your priest did that, it's better to say that to your bishop instead of telling that to other people in your parish. And when your priest repent his fault that everything is ok. |
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The helping of others, the giving of alms, and all external goods don’t calm the arrogance of the heart. Humility of the mind, the pain of repentence and the breaking of the will, however, humble the proud spirit. -Elder Joseph the Hesychast
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biro
Ursus maritimus
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2013, 03:39:39 PM » |
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Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema. You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented. I saw a priest in my parish (GOA) give Communion to an Armenian lady. No one made a fuss about it. But we're talking about Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. If your priest did that, it's better to say that to your bishop instead of telling that to other people in your parish. And when your priest repent his fault that everything is ok. Okay then. |
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2013, 08:38:21 PM » |
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fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).
he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.
The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms. Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim? Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect. |
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LBK
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« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2013, 09:12:06 PM » |
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fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).
he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.
The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms. Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim? Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect. Indeed. The OP was reported to the moderators for exactly this reason, and nothing seems to have been done about it.  |
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William
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« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2013, 09:13:49 PM » |
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He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy. You may erase him from your diptychs, but since you are not a bishop the erasure is of little import. Isn't that what you do? |
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A beard covers many chins. - Tallitot
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Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
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« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2013, 12:32:10 AM » |
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What I do? I'm not a bishop, and my church doesn't do diptychs, you know. |
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William
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« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2013, 01:19:20 AM » |
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What I do? I'm not a bishop, and my church doesn't do diptychs, you know. What is with the emoticons? I asked a question. Didn't you post something about not taking communion from bishops like Spong? |
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A beard covers many chins. - Tallitot
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PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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EXTERMINATE!
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« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2013, 02:19:54 AM » |
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fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).
he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.
The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms. Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim? Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect.
Thank you.
-PtA |
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PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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Posts: 26,021
EXTERMINATE!
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« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2013, 02:28:52 AM » |
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fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).
he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.
The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms. Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim? Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect. Indeed. The OP was reported to the moderators for exactly this reason, and nothing seems to have been done about it.
Thank you.
-PtA |
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 02:30:08 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Michał Kalina
proud Podlachian Belarusian parajournalistic engineer in spe
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OC.net's trickster
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« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2013, 04:54:43 AM » |
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As you can see the OP has already been put under moderation ie. for misusing hierarchs' titles. I'm aware some of you in spirit of Christian love and humility would willingly impale him / her however the moderators' guidelines do not allow us to discipline several times for the same offence (there is something similar in the canon law, isn't it?).
If some of you STILL have some questions please, contact me, as PeterTheAleut pointed out, in private.
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 04:58:51 AM by Michał Kalina »
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole. Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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Pericles
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« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2013, 11:38:07 AM » |
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He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.
Newsflash! The mutual anathemas have been lifted. |
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Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2013, 12:00:18 PM » |
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He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.
Newsflash! The mutual anathemas have been lifted.Yeah, you're gonna have to back this up. |
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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Pericles
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Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archdiocese of Thyateira & Great Britain.
Posts: 178
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« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2013, 12:05:25 PM » |
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Yeah, you're gonna have to back this up.
Yeah and you're gonna have to beg for it. This is common knowledge and I don't see why I should do your homework! |
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Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2013, 12:08:19 PM » |
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The anathemas of Blachernae et al. have been lifted?
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 12:08:26 PM by Cyrillic »
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2013, 12:27:29 PM » |
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Yeah, you're gonna have to back this up.
Yeah and you're gonna have to beg for it. This is common knowledge and I don't see why I should do your homework! Idiocy. |
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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Pericles
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Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archdiocese of Thyateira & Great Britain.
Posts: 178
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« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2013, 12:29:29 PM » |
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Idiocy.
We noticed  |
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Pericles
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« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2013, 05:15:14 AM » |
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I thought the Chalcedons were back in communion with the OO.  We are but the OP wasn't aware of it and when it was pointed out one person even asked for corroborating references and links! |
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Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
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LBK
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« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2013, 05:19:41 AM » |
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I thought the Chalcedons were back in communion with the OO. We are but the OP wasn't aware of it and when it was pointed out one person even asked for corroborating references and links! Wrong. The OO and EO are not in communion, irrespective of what individual priests might do. No OO hierarch is on any EO diptychs, there has been no full reconciliation of the two churches. Dialogue, yes. Reconciliation and reunification, no. |
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Pericles
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« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2013, 06:16:53 AM » |
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Wrong. Whatever! "The Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa have already accepted the outcome of the official dialogue on Christology between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the two official agreements: the first on Christology signed in June 1989 in Egypt and the second also on Christology and on the lifting of anathemas and restoration of full communion signed in Geneva 1990, Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria |
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Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
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LBK
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« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2013, 06:23:59 AM » |
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Wrong. Whatever! "The Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa have already accepted the outcome of the official dialogue on Christology between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the two official agreements: the first on Christology signed in June 1989 in Egypt and the second also on Christology and on the lifting of anathemas and restoration of full communion signed in Geneva 1990, Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of AlexandriaObviously no Orthodox priest, certainly not the Greek or Russian, in my neck of the woods, got the memo. I'm talking about at least 25 priests. |
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Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
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Posts: 3,042
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« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2013, 08:04:02 AM » |
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What I do? I'm not a bishop, and my church doesn't do diptychs, you know. What is with the emoticons? I asked a question. Didn't you post something about not taking communion from bishops like Spong? That's just me and anyone else I can convince to do likewise. It isn't as though it implies any sort of authority. Sorry for getting a bit testy. |
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Pericles
Member
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Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archdiocese of Thyateira & Great Britain.
Posts: 178
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« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2013, 08:15:44 AM » |
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Obviously no Orthodox priest, certainly not the Greek or Russian, in my neck of the woods, got the memo. I'm talking about at least 25 priests. Whatever! The Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa |
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Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
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Arachne
Trinary Unit
Elder
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Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Deanery of the UK and Ireland
Posts: 1,106
Tending Brigid's flame
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« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2013, 08:20:42 AM » |
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That sounds like a bit of oikonomia on the part of the Alexandrian Patriarchate. No other Patriarchate has joined in, though, as far as I know, so yes... whatever. |
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The reason why clichés are so satisfying is because the truth never loses its residual force. Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox |
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