Author Topic: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware  (Read 7874 times)

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Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2013, 09:50:40 AM »
He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.

What further need to we have of witnesses?

A layman wields the power of the Councils to anathematize hierarchs? By Crom, I didn't realize we held such power!

Be careful using a fictional pagan deity or you might also get anathematized.   ::)
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2013, 10:02:43 AM »
This reminds me hearing a Protestant Reformed minister proclaiming the Christian Reformed Church to be apostate.

Offline Ebor

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2013, 11:38:12 AM »
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox.


Not trying to be difficult or anything, but since there is no real source for the "writing" from 1984 in either the OP or the brief video on YouTube, does anyone know if the Metropolitan actually did write something on this and if so where?

Or as they say on Wikis "Citation needed".   :)
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2013, 09:14:28 PM »
He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.

What further need to we have of witnesses?

A layman wields the power of the Councils to anathematize hierarchs? By Crom, I didn't realize we held such power!

Be careful using a fictional pagan deity or you might also get anathematized.   ::)

What?
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Offline Deep Roots

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2013, 09:16:12 PM »
LOL
Peace.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2013, 09:18:32 PM »
What?

Crom is a fictional deity in Robert E. Howard's world most famous for Conan the Barbarian.

I'm glad he knew what it was at least. I was afraid nobody would. ;)

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2013, 09:23:18 PM »
What?

Crom is a fictional deity in Robert E. Howard's world most famous for Conan the Barbarian.

I'm glad he knew what it was at least. I was afraid nobody would. ;)

Not sure what that had to do with what I wrote.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2013, 09:25:27 PM »
Not sure what that had to do with what I wrote.

When I said "by Crom?"

Offline Punch

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2013, 12:00:40 AM »
Not sure what that had to do with what I wrote.

When I said "by Crom?"

An oath to a false god.  Anathema!
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline William

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2013, 01:26:32 AM »
I was under the impression that giving communion to anyone under an anathema is in violation of the canons, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding it. 

That's correct. The double standard is mostly an emotional one, like in Gebre's post.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline KShaft

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2013, 02:25:12 AM »
The Ecumenical Councils used the term Monophysites.

Yet they never once described a Christology that the Orientals actually believed in.


Wow. So the council was wrong and Severus was right huh? Roger that...

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2013, 02:36:55 AM »
I have pretty much ignored this thread based merely off the title.  Now I wish my curiosity had not gotten the better of me. :(

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2013, 04:00:16 AM »
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox.


Not trying to be difficult or anything, but since there is no real source for the "writing" from 1984 in either the OP or the brief video on YouTube, does anyone know if the Metropolitan actually did write something on this and if so where?

Or as they say on Wikis "Citation needed".   :)

Such a comment coming from his eminence would not surprise me, considering: 1) how friendly the EP has been with various groups since the early 20th century, sometimes even outright acknowledging that the sacraments of Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. are grace-filled; 2) how Orthodoxy has fluctuated on this generally; and 3) how he has let slip other statements over the years that he had to then go back and clarify and interpret in an Orthodox manner. But I do agree that, if a real conversation is to be made, it should be based on a verifiable quote and not hearsay. Now, if only I knew where I could find a reference proving or disproving the claim...

Offline mike

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2013, 04:37:11 AM »
I can testify he said he wouldn't give communion to Roman Catholics. I heard this myself.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2013, 09:31:14 AM »
Wow. So the council was wrong and Severus was right huh? Roger that...

What? The councils not condemning Miaphysite Christology and the councils being wrong are not necessarily linked statements.

Offline Ebor

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2013, 12:04:30 PM »
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox.


Not trying to be difficult or anything, but since there is no real source for the "writing" from 1984 in either the OP or the brief video on YouTube, does anyone know if the Metropolitan actually did write something on this and if so where?

Or as they say on Wikis "Citation needed".   :)

Such a comment coming from his eminence would not surprise me, considering: 1) how friendly the EP has been with various groups since the early 20th century, sometimes even outright acknowledging that the sacraments of Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. are grace-filled; 2) how Orthodoxy has fluctuated on this generally; and 3) how he has let slip other statements over the years that he had to then go back and clarify and interpret in an Orthodox manner. But I do agree that, if a real conversation is to be made, it should be based on a verifiable quote and not hearsay. Now, if only I knew where I could find a reference proving or disproving the claim...

Exactly so, Asteriktos.  The OP and the video, having stated that the Metropolitan wrote something without giving a source, lack any proof for the accusation and therefore should not be trusted as accurate until such time as it is given  It is, as you wrote only hearsay until then.
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Offline Keble

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2013, 10:59:18 PM »
He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

You may erase him from your diptychs, but since you are not a bishop the erasure is of little import.

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2013, 03:04:10 PM »
fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).

he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.

Offline Nathanael

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »
Quote
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him

Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema.
You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented.
"Orthodoxy is the very nature of man" - Father Rafail Noica

Offline biro

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2013, 03:34:43 PM »
Quote
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him

Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema.
You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented.

I saw a priest in my parish (GOA) give Communion to an Armenian lady. No one made a fuss about it.

Offline Nathanael

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2013, 03:38:03 PM »
Quote
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him

Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema.
You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented.

I saw a priest in my parish (GOA) give Communion to an Armenian lady. No one made a fuss about it.
But we're talking about Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. If your priest did that, it's better to say that to your bishop instead of telling that to other people in your parish. And when your priest repent his fault that everything is ok.
"Orthodoxy is the very nature of man" - Father Rafail Noica

Offline biro

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2013, 03:39:39 PM »
Quote
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him

Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema.
You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented.

I saw a priest in my parish (GOA) give Communion to an Armenian lady. No one made a fuss about it.
But we're talking about Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. If your priest did that, it's better to say that to your bishop instead of telling that to other people in your parish. And when your priest repent his fault that everything is ok.

Okay then.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2013, 08:38:21 PM »
fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).

he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.

The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms.

Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim?

Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect.

Offline LBK

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2013, 09:12:06 PM »
fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).

he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.

The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms.

Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim?

Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect.

Indeed. The OP was reported to the moderators for exactly this reason, and nothing seems to have been done about it.  >:(
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline William

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2013, 09:13:49 PM »
He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

You may erase him from your diptychs, but since you are not a bishop the erasure is of little import.


Isn't that what you do?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Keble

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2013, 12:32:10 AM »
What I do?  >:( ::) I'm not a bishop, and my church doesn't do diptychs, you know.

Offline William

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2013, 01:19:20 AM »
What I do?  >:( ::) I'm not a bishop, and my church doesn't do diptychs, you know.


What is with the emoticons? I asked a question. Didn't you post something about not taking communion from bishops like Spong?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2013, 02:19:54 AM »
fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).

he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.

The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms.

Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim?

Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect.
To the contrary, podkarpatska, the high regard Metropolitan Kallistos has within the mainstream of the Orthodox Church does not render him immune to criticism or charges of heresy. Likewise, our forum rules do not state with anywhere near as much clarity as you think that we are to refrain from calling Metropolitan Kallistos a heretic. The moderator team is currently reviewing this thread, so I ask formally that you stop misrepresenting forum policy and let us conduct our review. If you wish to complain further about the treatment Metropolitan Kallistos has received on this thread, please use the Report to Moderator function to register your complaint.

Thank you.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2013, 02:28:52 AM »
fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).

he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.

The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms.

Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim?

Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect.

Indeed. The OP was reported to the moderators for exactly this reason, and nothing seems to have been done about it.  >:(
Nothing has been done about your complaint, LBK, because our first review deemed that no rules had been violated. You are, however, coming dangerously close once again to violating our rule that moderator action/inaction not be criticized publicly. Consider this your last warning, then, that if you come even this close again to publicly criticizing our decisions, you will receive a formal warning. Please confine your criticism of our decisions to private conversations with the moderator team.

Thank you.

-PtA
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 02:30:08 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline mike

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2013, 04:54:43 AM »
As you can see the OP has already been put under moderation ie. for misusing hierarchs' titles. I'm aware some of you in spirit of Christian love and humility would willingly impale him / her however the moderators' guidelines do not allow us to discipline several times for the same offence (there is something similar in the canon law, isn't it?).

If some of you STILL have some questions please, contact me, as PeterTheAleut pointed out, in private.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 04:58:51 AM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2013, 11:38:07 AM »
He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.
Newsflash! The mutual anathemas have been lifted.
Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2013, 12:00:18 PM »
He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.
Newsflash! The mutual anathemas have been lifted.

Yeah, you're gonna have to back this up.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2013, 12:05:25 PM »
Yeah, you're gonna have to back this up.
Yeah and you're gonna have to beg for it. This is common knowledge and I don't see why I should do your homework!
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2013, 12:08:19 PM »
The anathemas of Blachernae et al. have been lifted?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 12:08:26 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2013, 12:27:29 PM »
Yeah, you're gonna have to back this up.
Yeah and you're gonna have to beg for it. This is common knowledge and I don't see why I should do your homework!

Idiocy.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2013, 12:29:29 PM »
Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.

Offline Gamliel

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2013, 01:24:15 PM »
I thought the Chalcedons were back in communion with the OO. ???

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2013, 01:25:19 PM »
I thought the Chalcedons were back in communion with the OO. ???

 :)
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2013, 05:15:14 AM »
I thought the Chalcedons were back in communion with the OO. ???
We are but the OP wasn't aware of it and when it was pointed out one person even asked for corroborating references and links!
Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.

Offline LBK

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2013, 05:19:41 AM »
I thought the Chalcedons were back in communion with the OO. ???
We are but the OP wasn't aware of it and when it was pointed out one person even asked for corroborating references and links!

Wrong. The OO and EO are not in communion, irrespective of what individual priests might do. No OO hierarch is on any EO diptychs, there has been no full reconciliation of the two churches. Dialogue, yes. Reconciliation and reunification, no.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Pericles

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2013, 06:16:53 AM »
Wrong.
Whatever!

"The Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa have already accepted the outcome of the official dialogue on Christology between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the two official agreements: the first on Christology signed in June 1989 in Egypt and the second also on Christology and on the lifting of anathemas and restoration of full communion signed in Geneva 1990,

Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria




Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.

Offline LBK

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2013, 06:23:59 AM »
Wrong.
Whatever!

"The Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa have already accepted the outcome of the official dialogue on Christology between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the two official agreements: the first on Christology signed in June 1989 in Egypt and the second also on Christology and on the lifting of anathemas and restoration of full communion signed in Geneva 1990,

Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria


Obviously no Orthodox priest, certainly not the Greek or Russian, in my neck of the woods, got the memo.  ::) I'm talking about at least 25 priests.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Keble

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2013, 08:04:02 AM »
What I do?  >:( ::) I'm not a bishop, and my church doesn't do diptychs, you know.


What is with the emoticons? I asked a question. Didn't you post something about not taking communion from bishops like Spong?

That's just me and anyone else I can convince to do likewise. It isn't as though it implies any sort of authority. Sorry for getting a bit testy.


Offline Pericles

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2013, 08:15:44 AM »
Obviously no Orthodox priest, certainly not the Greek or Russian, in my neck of the woods, got the memo.  ::) I'm talking about at least 25 priests.
Whatever!

The Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa
Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2013, 08:20:42 AM »
That sounds like a bit of oikonomia on the part of the Alexandrian Patriarchate. No other Patriarchate has joined in, though, as far as I know, so yes... whatever. ::)
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