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Author Topic: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware  (Read 5695 times) Average Rating: 0
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Incognito777
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« on: February 13, 2013, 12:11:02 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.



Forbidden epithet replaced with something more acceptable for the Public Forum  -PtA

Threads title changed due to violation of:

Practically speaking, academic discussion means not referring to figures on your side as "St. so and so" while referring to figures of the other party as "the heretic so and so."  Instead, as with standard academic discourse, all historical figures will be referred to by name and location only, for instance "Leo of Rome" and "Dioscoros of Alexandria." It is presumed that posters reflect the position of faith of their Communion; for instance, it is presumed that an Eastern Orthodox member regards Chalcedon as an ecumenical and God-inspired council, while an Oriental Orthodox member regards Dioscoros of Alexandria as a teacher of the faith.  Therefore, it is not necessary for posters to continuously and aggressively point out the obvious in respect to the enumeration of councils, recognition of saints, etc.

Users are free free to accuse any hierarch of heresy and then attempt to prove it; they are not free to use the pejorative ad hominem heretic - MK. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 05:04:00 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 12:11:59 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

 Huh
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 12:15:35 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

By what authority do you invoke the Councils and Fathers to anathematize a Metropolitan? Wink
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 12:19:52 AM by Nephi » Logged
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 12:19:10 AM »

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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 12:20:12 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

And yet, unless you go to the people not in communion with the patriarchates (and often not in communion with one another), you are in communion with him. It is the same with Metropolitan Niccolae of Romania, who after blatantly communing at a Roman Catholic altar, and possibly receiving some sort of discipline, is still functioning as a Metropolitan, last I heard. Even in the time of the Ecumenical Councils, things happened.

You can denounce from your soap box until you're hoarse. Your complaint will be duly noted in the Orthodox Church's Complaints Department. It will be answered in the order it was received. Due to a thousand year backlog, it looks like you'll be waiting awhile. The good news is, the Lord may return before then. Have a nice day.
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 12:20:45 AM »

And it's not even April yet! Bless you, sir or ma'am incognito, for this comedic interlude from sanity.
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 12:21:45 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

By what authority do you invoke the Councils and Fathers to anathematize a Metropolitan? Wink

He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.

What further need to we have of witnesses?
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 12:26:47 AM »

He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.

What further need to we have of witnesses?

A layman wields the power of the Councils to anathematize hierarchs? By Crom, I didn't realize we held such power!
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 12:31:42 AM »

He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.

What further need to we have of witnesses?

A layman wields the power of the Councils to anathematize hierarchs? By Crom, I didn't realize we held such power!

Well, the argument is that, since the councils issued the anathema, it stands as anathema. Now, as for depositions, that is for a local council to do. I'm not defending the soapboxing, as you see above, just saying one can "fall under anathema" according to at least one school of thought. Of course, there needs to be an ecclesiastical trial. But, apparently, even a laymen can accuse a metropolitan of heresy. Of course, there is a proper way to do this and a useless way to do this.
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 12:36:05 AM »

Well, the argument is that, since the councils issued the anathema, it stands as anathema. Now, as for depositions, that is for a local council to do. I'm not defending the soapboxing, as you see above, just saying one can "fall under anathema" according to at least one school of thought. Of course, there needs to be an ecclesiastical trial. But, apparently, even a laymen can accuse a metropolitan of heresy. Of course, there is a proper way to do this and a useless way to do this.

True enough.
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 12:41:57 AM »

Why does Orthodoxy make so many people crazy?
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 12:43:21 AM »

Why does Orthodoxy make so many people crazy?

Fwiw some of us calm down eventually. Kinda.  angel
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 12:44:04 AM »

Why does Orthodoxy make so many people crazy?

Wrong question. Orthodoxy does not make people crazy. Crazy people happen to be Orthodox, just as they happen to belong to other religions (including atheism, which is the religion which believes God does not exist).
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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 12:44:44 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites.
What monophysites?

« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 12:47:19 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 12:45:17 AM »

Well, there's Orthodoxy and then there there's the "True" Orthodoxy of the occasional internet convert (see, if you dare, the OP's YouTube channel). It's best not to confuse the two just because such people are much louder than their actual numbers might suggest.
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 12:47:35 AM »

Well, there's Orthodoxy and then there there's the "True" Orthodoxy of the occasional internet convert (see, if you dare, the OP's YouTube channel). It's best not to confuse the two just because such people are much louder than their actual numbers might suggest.

The OP is "True" Orthodox of the HOTCA variety, it seems.
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2013, 12:48:56 AM »

I hate to say it, but it's posts like this that actually scares me away from old calendarism. I know it should be about the actual issues, not the people, and I know there are kind people in traditionalist churches (almost certainly the majority)... but it's not about the people so much as the tone and mindset sometimes...,there just seems to be a narrowness of mind and spirit that makes it difficult for me to say "Yeah, I could work out my salvation there..." I have enough issues while in world Orthodoxy, without making it harder...  
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 12:50:23 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

By what authority do you invoke the Councils and Fathers to anathematize a Metropolitan? Wink

You're joking right? You do understand that councils and the Holy Fathers have the greatest authority in the Church, right?
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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2013, 12:51:04 AM »

The OP is "True" Orthodox of the HOTCA variety, it seems.

Alright. I don't know what that means. I just mean that most of the people I know who are Orthodox and not crazy do not go around calling themselves or their churches "True" Orthodox. "Orthodox" itself is enough of a descriptor. Smiley

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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 12:54:03 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

By what authority do you invoke the Councils and Fathers to anathematize a Metropolitan? Wink

You're joking right? You do understand that councils and the Holy Fathers have the greatest authority in the Church, right?

Yes. And it takes bishops to enforce them and, theoretically according to Fr. Georges Florovsky, the people. But unless you are planning some sort of mob action or a concerted letter writing campaign to the Holy Synod of Constantinople (good luck with that) to dethrone and anathematize a metropolitan with whom you are not in communion, what is your point?
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 12:54:25 AM »

The OP is "True" Orthodox of the HOTCA variety, it seems.

Alright. I don't know what that means. I just mean that most of the people I know who are Orthodox and not crazy do not go around calling themselves or their churches "True" Orthodox. "Orthodox" itself is enough of a descriptor. Smiley



HOTCA is one of the "Genuine Orthodox Churches" coming out of the Greek Old Calendar schisms.
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« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2013, 12:55:22 AM »

The OP is "True" Orthodox of the HOTCA variety, it seems.

Alright. I don't know what that means. I just mean that most of the people I know who are Orthodox and not crazy do not go around calling themselves or their churches "True" Orthodox. "Orthodox" itself is enough of a descriptor. Smiley



I'm still hoping to see a Real Honest and Truly Orthodox Church, just to finally separate it from all the other impostors so that confusion may cease and people may see the light.
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« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2013, 12:57:37 AM »

The OP is "True" Orthodox of the HOTCA variety, it seems.

Alright. I don't know what that means. I just mean that most of the people I know who are Orthodox and not crazy do not go around calling themselves or their churches "True" Orthodox. "Orthodox" itself is enough of a descriptor. Smiley

To be honest, I never much liked this argument. First, the Fathers spoke of "true faith" and "true religion" and such, so they didn't have a problem modifying things with the word true when the context should have made it clear what they were talking about. And second, Orthodox is itself an addition... I mean, we don't go around just calling ourself "the way" or "Christian" much without it being modified, as they did in New Testament times. Catholic, Orthodox, holy, etc. are all modifiers we've added. It doesn't mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves to be "the holiest of the holy" in some prideful manner.
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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2013, 01:02:27 AM »



Yes. And it takes bishops to enforce them and, theoretically according to Fr. Georges Florovsky, the people. But unless you are planning some sort of mob action or a concerted letter writing campaign to the Holy Synod of Constantinople (good luck with that) to dethrone and anathematize a metropolitan with whom you are not in communion, what is your point?
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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2013, 01:05:25 AM »

Shanghaiski,

Your safe with Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church, under Metropolitan Theodore,
GOC under Archbishop Makarios,
GOC under Archbishop Kallinikos (I think),
Russian True Orthodox Church, under Bishop Stefan (I think),

The TOC of Serbia.

As far as I know, everyone else has succumbed to the heresy of Ecumenism and are invalidated.

Proper titles added - MK



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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2013, 01:08:55 AM »

Shanghaiski,

Your safe with Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church, under Metropolitan Theodore,
GOC under Makarios,
GOC under Kallinikos (I think),

therefore, I am. (DesCartes)

Are any of these groups (above and below this text) in communion with each other?

Russian True Orthodox Church, under Bishop Stefan (I think),

The TOC of Serbia.

As far as I know, everyone else has succumbed to the heresy of Ecumenism and are invalidated.

Where were you (besides incognito) when we were discussing headcoverings?   Huh
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2013, 01:15:02 AM »

To be honest, I never much liked this argument. First, the Fathers spoke of "true faith" and "true religion" and such, so they didn't have a problem modifying things with the word true when the context should have made it clear what they were talking about. And second, Orthodox is itself an addition... I mean, we don't go around just calling ourself "the way" or "Christian" much without it being modified, as they did in New Testament times. Catholic, Orthodox, holy, etc. are all modifiers we've added. It doesn't mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves to be "the holiest of the holy" in some prideful manner.

You seem to be kind of all over the place here, Asteriktos. Of course the fathers spoke of "true" faith and religion. It's not the word "true" that's the problem. As you write a bit later, Orthodox itself is an addition, and it does not mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves holy in a prideful manner. That was kind of my whole point: These "True" Orthodox folks (or at least some of them who are very loud on the internet) set themselves up against everybody and everything else on the basis of ____ (whatever: opposition to ecumenism, opposition to Nikonian reforms, etc.), which is pretty prideful. For the rest of us, who are just trying to be Orthodox in regular parishes that don't define themselves by what they're not, "Orthodox" says it all (as Orthodoxy is the true faith in the first place...as it was when we called it "the way" or whatever else...a rose by any other name, y'know?).
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2013, 01:26:30 AM »

Hmmmmm...Too much like another Member777 we once had, a faux-Orthodox who ravaged us for several years until self-outting himself on another forum as a never-Orthodox.
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2013, 01:30:38 AM »

Hmmmmm...Too much like another Member777 we once had, a faux-Orthodox who ravaged us for several years until self-outting himself on another forum as a never-Orthodox.

Say what? That is shocking news to me  Sad
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2013, 01:39:30 AM »

Hmmmmm...Too much like another Member777 we once had, a faux-Orthodox who ravaged us for several years until self-outting himself on another forum as a never-Orthodox.

Say what? That is shocking news to me  Sad

There was another member, a mog144, who was also never Orthodox Christian, but who has ravaged the OC on several forums. The months of January and February of this year have been weird with fixations on the numbers 7 and 12.
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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2013, 02:16:05 AM »

I hate to say it, but it's posts like this that actually scares me away from old calendarism. I know it should be about the actual issues, not the people, and I know there are kind people in traditionalist churches (almost certainly the majority)... but it's not about the people so much as the tone and mindset sometimes...,there just seems to be a narrowness of mind and spirit that makes it difficult for me to say "Yeah, I could work out my salvation there..." I have enough issues while in world Orthodoxy, without making it harder...  

+ 1

It's an ecumenical phenomenon. Same seems to apply small independent confessional Lutheran churches in Finland. Angry religious people are scary.
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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2013, 11:23:28 PM »


Forbidden epithet replaced with something more acceptable for the Public Forum  -PtA

Why is it forbidden? Politically correct terminology for modernists and ecumenists? The Ecumenical Councils used the term Monophysites. Do you have great understanding than the God-bearing Fathers? The term "oriental orthodox" has no historical validity. Read this article.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/zisis.pdf

Are you a pleaser of men? How serious are you about your faith? Are you a conformist because you are afraid of persecution?

You were warned by another of my teammates to not use the epithet in your posts on the Public Forum. You were also placed on Warned status for disputing moderator actions in public. If you had read the Forum Rules as I asked you to do, you would know that these actions are forbidden and why they are forbidden.

For continuing to argue with moderatorial actions in public like this, you are now on Post Moderation for the next 99 days. During the time of your moderation, you will still be able to post, but every one of your posts will need moderator approval to appear on the forum. If you still insist on behaving as you have thus far, you will be muted.

This is not an attempt to silence your strict, traditionalist message against ecumenism and the New Calendar, since we permit others to express the same views you have expressed. You are having your posting privileges restricted because you have shown that you cannot or will not speak your message in a manner that is consistent with the rules of the OC.net discussion forum. Again, if you wish to dispute the action I have taken, please do so only via private message to me.

- PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2013, 11:26:10 PM »

Well, there's Orthodoxy and then there there's the "True" Orthodoxy of the occasional internet convert (see, if you dare, the OP's YouTube channel). It's best not to confuse the two just because such people are much louder than their actual numbers might suggest.

I think most people who claim to be Orthodox today are not fully converted. Everyone is called to convert.
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2013, 11:28:39 PM »

Yeah, most of us have a jurisdiction, too. What a bunch of sellouts, huh?
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2013, 11:34:46 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils used the term Monophysites.

Yet they never once described a Christology that the Orientals actually believed in.
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2013, 11:55:41 PM »

Well, there's Orthodoxy and then there there's the "True" Orthodoxy of the occasional internet convert (see, if you dare, the OP's YouTube channel). It's best not to confuse the two just because such people are much louder than their actual numbers might suggest.

I think most people who claim to be Orthodox today are not fully converted. Everyone is called to convert.
So how long ago did you convert?
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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2013, 12:17:10 AM »

Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. (2 Timothy 2:21-26). 

May the Lord deliver you, Incognito777.
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2013, 02:09:15 AM »

I hate to say it, but it's posts like this that actually scares me away from old calendarism. I know it should be about the actual issues, not the people, and I know there are kind people in traditionalist churches (almost certainly the majority)... but it's not about the people so much as the tone and mindset sometimes...,there just seems to be a narrowness of mind and spirit that makes it difficult for me to say "Yeah, I could work out my salvation there..." I have enough issues while in world Orthodoxy, without making it harder...  

I just want to say as an Old Calendarist Orthodox Christian that I completely understand your sentiments. When I was in World Orthodoxy I honestly thought that the majority of Old Calendarists were probably like Incognito777. It wasn't until I actually met some in person, especially my bishop, that my opinion of them in that regard has completely changed as I have met some of the most humble loving people that I know. Sure, we do have our crazies, but out of all of the Old Calendarists I have met (which I admit I have only met probably about 50-ish) I've only met a few who came across as such. But on the other side I also knew of crazy sorts of people back in World Orthodoxy as well.

To Incognito777: While I don't necessarily disagree with much of what you've been saying, we must be careful that we're speaking the truth in love. Our efforts should be to bring people to the Church, not away from it. It is possible, if you read the forum rules, to abide by the rules and not deny your faith. Make sure you read them so you'll know how to post on this forum. Remember that there's a difference between boldly proclaiming the truth in love and speaking the truth with pride and arrogance.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 02:11:39 AM by searn77 » Logged

Let us the faithful now come together to praise our father, protector and teacher the pillar of the Orthodox faith and firm defender of piety even the wondrous hierarch Philaret and let us glorify our Saviour Who has granted us his incorrupt relics as a manifest sign of his sanctity.
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« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2013, 03:41:02 AM »

From what I understand about the controversy with Ecumenism, the anathemas were directed at those who either endorsed heretical ideas or teach some form of 'branch theory', where all Christian faiths are a part of the same church somehow. I don't think sitting down and talking to people of others faiths or traditions, trying to find points of agreement and co-operation, is quite the same thing as proclaiming a branch theory or endorsing their ideas, but that's just me. But I would still say that Metropolitan Kallistos Ware was wrong to give communion to members of the Oriental Church and should have been punished, if it even happened that is. And I generally like the man. But still. Rules are rules, canons and canons.



Proper titles inserted into post, and excessively familiar reference to a bishop replaced with something more respectful.  -PtA
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2013, 03:58:03 AM »

I hate to say it, but it's posts like this that actually scares me away from old calendarism. I know it should be about the actual issues, not the people, and I know there are kind people in traditionalist churches (almost certainly the majority)... but it's not about the people so much as the tone and mindset sometimes...,there just seems to be a narrowness of mind and spirit that makes it difficult for me to say "Yeah, I could work out my salvation there..." I have enough issues while in world Orthodoxy, without making it harder... 

I just want to say as an Old Calendarist Orthodox Christian that I completely understand your sentiments. When I was in World Orthodoxy I honestly thought that the majority of Old Calendarists were probably like Incognito777. It wasn't until I actually met some in person, especially my bishop, that my opinion of them in that regard has completely changed as I have met some of the most humble loving people that I know. Sure, we do have our crazies, but out of all of the Old Calendarists I have met (which I admit I have only met probably about 50-ish) I've only met a few who came across as such. But on the other side I also knew of crazy sorts of people back in World Orthodoxy as well.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience on this Smiley

But I would still say that Metropolitan Kallistos Ware was wrong to give communion to members of the Oriental Church and should have been punished, if it even happened that is. And I generally like the man. But still. Rules are rules, canons and canons.

But it's not uncommon, and even officially sancationed by some Churches (e.g. Antioch). I don't know about Constantinople, though they were certainly cozy with the Anglicans in the early 20th century, and recognized Lutheran baptism not too long ago. It's a mess...
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« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2013, 04:06:10 AM »

I love, respect, and personally appreciate those gracious and humble Orthodox Priests who simply require that one is a baptized Orthodox Christian that desires to avail themselves of the Sacraments of the Faith. Love is the greatest truth (for God is love), and such truth overwhelms manmade political divisions. I am deeply grateful to the Greek Orthodox Priests who have offered the Mysteries to our family without any qualms. If they are heretics, then send me to a heretics' heaven.



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« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2013, 04:26:05 AM »

Sorry Moderators. I didn't mean in any wise to disrespect the Metropolitan. I am still quite unfamiliar with proper Orthodox etiquette with respect to giving proper honor to clergy. Something I will work on.

I was under the impression that giving communion to anyone under an anathema is in violation of the canons, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding it. 
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« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2013, 08:16:41 AM »


 The Ecumenical Councils used the term Monophysites.

Chalcedon did not use it and neither did Constantinople II. Could you quote Mansi to prove this assertion?
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« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2013, 08:50:10 AM »

To be honest, I never much liked this argument. First, the Fathers spoke of "true faith" and "true religion" and such, so they didn't have a problem modifying things with the word true when the context should have made it clear what they were talking about. And second, Orthodox is itself an addition... I mean, we don't go around just calling ourself "the way" or "Christian" much without it being modified, as they did in New Testament times. Catholic, Orthodox, holy, etc. are all modifiers we've added. It doesn't mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves to be "the holiest of the holy" in some prideful manner.

You seem to be kind of all over the place here, Asteriktos. Of course the fathers spoke of "true" faith and religion. It's not the word "true" that's the problem. As you write a bit later, Orthodox itself is an addition, and it does not mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves holy in a prideful manner. That was kind of my whole point: These "True" Orthodox folks (or at least some of them who are very loud on the internet) set themselves up against everybody and everything else on the basis of ____ (whatever: opposition to ecumenism, opposition to Nikonian reforms, etc.), which is pretty prideful. For the rest of us, who are just trying to be Orthodox in regular parishes that don't define themselves by what they're not, "Orthodox" says it all (as Orthodoxy is the true faith in the first place...as it was when we called it "the way" or whatever else...a rose by any other name, y'know?).

Wow, QFT !
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2013, 09:19:00 AM »

You seem to be kind of all over the place here, Asteriktos. Of course the fathers spoke of "true" faith and religion. It's not the word "true" that's the problem. As you write a bit later, Orthodox itself is an addition, and it does not mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves holy in a prideful manner. That was kind of my whole point: These "True" Orthodox folks (or at least some of them who are very loud on the internet) set themselves up against everybody and everything else on the basis of ____ (whatever: opposition to ecumenism, opposition to Nikonian reforms, etc.), which is pretty prideful. For the rest of us, who are just trying to be Orthodox in regular parishes that don't define themselves by what they're not, "Orthodox" says it all (as Orthodoxy is the true faith in the first place...as it was when we called it "the way" or whatever else...a rose by any other name, y'know?).

I don't quite understand... from their perspective it was the other people who went into schism, they simply added the words like true or genuine to distinguish themselves... sort of the same situation with Orthodox calling themselves Orthodox to distinguish themselves from Catholics.
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