OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 24, 2014, 04:31:16 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Supersessionism  (Read 3461 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« on: June 15, 2009, 02:56:40 PM »

In connection to the thread on the Church's teaching about the Jews I'd like to ask a question of my own.     

What does the Church teach about supersessionism?  Is there any consideration given to understanding the Hebrew Scriptures from the perspective of the original writers/ readers/ hearers?

According to the Wiki:

Supersessionism (British English: supercessionism) and replacement theology are particular interpretations of New Testament claims, viewing God's relationship with Christians as being either the "replacement" or "completion" of the promise made to the Jews (or Israelites) and Jewish Proselytes. Biblical expressions of God's relationships with people are known as covenants,[1] so the contentious element of supersessionism is the idea that the New Covenant with the Christians and the Christian Church somehow "replaces" or "completes" the Mosaic Covenant (or Torah) with the Israelites and B'nei Noah.
Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 03:21:17 PM »

It must be made very clear that the more Anti-Semitic shades of supersessionism are not accepted. We cannot say in a general sense that "the Jews" were replaced by "the Gentiles", for adherence or non-adherence to the Old Covenants is really not the distinguishing point. Nor can we say that "Israel" is replaced by "the Church", because such a denial of continuity with the Old Testament Fathers is highly dangerous. Rather, the Church is identified as the fulfillment and continuation of the OT Israel, rather than the claims of the modern Jews as a people to be Israel or for the Zionist entity to be Israel. God's people are those who accepted Christ and His New Covenant, whether they be also adherents to the Old Covenants (Jews) or not (Gentiles).
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 03:26:17 PM »

In connection to the thread on the Church's teaching about the Jews I'd like to ask a question of my own.     

What does the Church teach about supersessionism?  Is there any consideration given to understanding the Hebrew Scriptures from the perspective of the original writers/ readers/ hearers?

According to the Wiki:

Supersessionism (British English: supercessionism) and replacement theology are particular interpretations of New Testament claims, viewing God's relationship with Christians as being either the "replacement" or "completion" of the promise made to the Jews (or Israelites) and Jewish Proselytes. Biblical expressions of God's relationships with people are known as covenants,[1] so the contentious element of supersessionism is the idea that the New Covenant with the Christians and the Christian Church somehow "replaces" or "completes" the Mosaic Covenant (or Torah) with the Israelites and B'nei Noah.

What they are conflating are two different things: completion (which is Orthodox, indeed Christian in general), and replacement (which is not).

Of course, those who accept the Talmud and the B'eni Noah nonsense (Gentiles for Judaism) will disagree.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 03:27:46 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 04:26:52 PM »


Of course, those who accept the Talmud and the B'eni Noah nonsense (Gentiles for Judaism) will disagree.

The Talmud is nonsense? Shocked
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 04:35:12 PM »


Of course, those who accept the Talmud and the B'eni Noah nonsense (Gentiles for Judaism) will disagree.

The Talmud is nonsense? Shocked

That surprises you? It's vehemently anti-Christian.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
GammaRay
The Awful Preacher
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


Alexandros Papadiamantis


« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 04:50:41 PM »

Deusveritasest, Jevathan was being sarcastic. Wink

Well, I don't know about supersessionism, sounds like Islam to me (where both Jews and Christians supposedly let God down).
I was talking about that with someone yesterday. Wouldn't God expand His Kingdom in all over the world, even in the Jews had been the most loyal servants ever? Wasn't His plan since Man's creation to make Him reach His likeness (which could be done only by having Christ as an archetype)?
Logged

Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 05:09:22 PM »


Well, I don't know about supersessionism, sounds like Islam to me (where both Jews and Christians supposedly let God down).

If by "the Jews" we mean those who were of the Old Covenants but rejected the New, isn't it the case that they let God down?


Wouldn't God expand His Kingdom in all over the world, even in the Jews had been the most loyal servants ever?

Did you mean "even if the Jews"?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
GammaRay
The Awful Preacher
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


Alexandros Papadiamantis


« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 08:30:23 AM »

Not all of them. There were some Jews who believed in Jesus Christ.

And yes, I meant if. Tongue
Logged

Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 04:46:45 PM »


Not all of them. There were some Jews who believed in Jesus Christ.

I wasn't talking about them though. Read what I said again:


If by "the Jews" we mean those who were of the Old Covenants but rejected the New, isn't it the case that they let God down?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Seafra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: British Orthodox hopeful
Posts: 240


It's in the shelter of each other that people live

Mr.Dougherty
WWW
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 02:31:22 PM »

Hello i come from a Evangelical background and am trying to come to terms and understanding with the Chruch's opinon of "prelacement Theology"  by the best means i know how, a good old argument! I seem to be hung on a a couple of my friends points hovever and would appreciate insight. BTW this is not a heated debate my friend is fully aware that this is how i learn and has been one i go back and forth with for years.

Some of his posts are as follows...

"Is Jesus the fulfillment of the covenant being with the house of Judah within the house of Israel? Categorically not. Jesus himself only said that his shed blood was the blood of the covenant. Translation: The sacrifice of Jesus is when the covenant of Jeremiah 31 was made, not when it was fulfilled. The covenant itself, according to Jeremiah, was made with who? The house of Israel and the house of Judah. The entire point of the New Covenant is that Israel and Judah will be restored by God-- physically, relationally and spiritually. Why did God put Abraham to sleep when God made the covenant with him? Because only God could fulfill it. Why did God become flesh? Because he is the only one who could satisfy the law. Why did Jesus sacrifice himself? Because only God can fulfill the New Covenant. God does not make covenants based on our ability to hold up our end of a bargain. Until you can prove that the covenant on Jeremiah 31 is NOT made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, you CANNOT claim that the New Covenant is not similarly ethnocentric.

Ultimately, Replacement Theology is predicated on the idea that God has forsaken Israel in favor of the church. Paul, in Romans 11:1-15 systematically denies any such accusation. God has not cast away Israel, but salvation has come to the Gentiles that Israel may be provoked to jealousy. The church exists to be a witness to the power and glory of God and of his Messiah until Jesus returns in the sky and restores Israel, fulfilling the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 and establishing the Kingdom of God on the earth. Replacement theology only makes sense in the real world if Israel does not exist as a national identity. Since the Jews still exist and (OMG!) have a nation again, there is not a single good reason to believe that God's promises to Israel have gone away from Israel towards any other ethnic group.


The new covenant is not strictly fulfilled by the first coming of Christ. Why? Because the nation of Israel has not once again turned to God. The point of the New Covenant was it was a promise that the nation would be returned from captivity (hence, it is written in Jeremiah), restored to it's former glory (as under King David), and once again brought into its full righteousness before God. Until that has happened, saying that it is fulfilled is tantamount to calling God a liar--because Israel has only sort of been returned from captivity, it has not been restored to its former glory, and it is an atheistic state. Quite simply, there are too many scriptures about the importance of Israel and too many promises of the eternality of their role to say that they have been replaced.

If you are trying to come up with a pressing case that will cause someone to believe that Israel has been replaced by the church, try getting some scripture on it first. The only way to believe in Replacement Theology is by blatantly ignoring (or worse yet, explaining away) Romans 9-11, and I'm just not comfortable doing that."
Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 03:30:42 PM »

Seafra,

I think your friend's main problem is the same one that Isa addressed earlier. He's talking about replacement theology. This is not Orthodox. We do not believe that the Church "replaced" Israel and that the Jewish people are utterly forsaken. Christ Himself tells the Syro-Phoenician woman that he has come for the children of God and not the little dogs. Instead, Christ comes to ultimately free all (Jew and Gentile) from death and open Paradise for all those who trust in Him, regardless of ethnic background.

The Church, in the beginning, was Jewish. Jesus was Jewish, the Apostles were Jewish and their first followers were also Jewish. It was a revelation to the Church that Christ is meant for all peoples. This is taught by God in the vision of St. Peter, when he sees a net filled with all sorts of animals and God commands him, "Arise Peter, kill and eat." But Peter says, "I have never eaten anything unclean", God replies, "what I have made holy you shall not call profane." After this, Peter receives word of a Roman soldier named Cornelius, a Gentile, who has received word from an angel to contact him. Peter visits him and Cornelius states his intention to become a Christian. Peter is cautious, but then it is revealed to him and those with them that they have received the Holy Spirit as gentiles. This is evidence enough. Peter and his companions accept Cornelius and his household into the Church, baptizing them.

Later on, the Judiziers will say that Gentiles must first become Jews in order to inherit the promises of Christ. This argument is soundly defeated in the Apostolic Council recorded in Acts 15, where the apostles proclaim that circumcision and observation of the Law of Moses is not required of Gentile Christians. One does not have to be Jewish to be a Christian, though Jews certainly are Christians.

Lastly, the prophecy of Christ of the destruction of Herod's Temple comes to pass in AD 70. Jerusalem is razed to the ground by the Romans. Though the city is rebuilt, the Temple never is. The sacrifices of the Jews have not been offered for nearly 2,000 years. Instead, the sacrifice of Christ (that is, the Eucharist) has been offered throughout the world to this day.

Jews may become Christians, and certainly remain Jewish as Christians. God has not forsaken Israel, but Israel has largely forsook God by rejecting Christ. The Jewish people are welcome to return to God in Christ, and certainly many have and are. Yet, the wild olive shoot, as St. Paul calls it, of the gentiles have also been grafted onto Israel, that is the Church. Israel, be it the Old Testament nation or the New Testament Church, is the same entity, not a different one. However, the people who reject Christ and identify themselves as Jewish have separated themselves from Israel by rejecting the Son of God and have no claim to continuity with the prophets of old. The modern nation of Israel, a secular state, has no actual claim to be the Israel of God, since they have rejected Him by not recognizing His Son (and indeed, many do not even practice religion at all).
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Seafra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: British Orthodox hopeful
Posts: 240


It's in the shelter of each other that people live

Mr.Dougherty
WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2012, 03:41:49 PM »

okay I tried to explain this to Him that its not a matter of Ethnic blood but of faith in God which makes us the People of God. I am sure i have fumble up many times in our conversation alluding to a more replacement theology type version but i have focused on the continuation of the people of God rather than the exclusion of Jews. But his insistence is that the new covenant was made to the ethnic bloodline in the house of Israel and Judah.
Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2012, 05:28:14 PM »

But his insistence is that the new covenant was made to the ethnic bloodline in the house of Israel and Judah.

This is a clear misunderstanding of what St. Paul is trying to say in the Romans 11 passage. Perhaps he should try reading it in light of Acts 10, where God directly reveals himself to the gentile centurion Cornelius and leads him to Peter, who in the same chapter has the vision I mentioned in my previous post. God's acceptance of the Gentile peoples as part of His covenant is made quite obvious. He should also pay close attention to Acts 15, where the Judizing heresy is dismissed -- Christians need not be Jewish to enter into full communion with God through Christ.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Seafra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: British Orthodox hopeful
Posts: 240


It's in the shelter of each other that people live

Mr.Dougherty
WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2012, 06:07:17 PM »

without asking i know he would agree the problem isn't non jewish but The covenant is made with the jews so it cannot be fulfilled without them. he is expecting a ethnic israel kingdom to inherit the promises promised to the people of God. with which we are grafted into.
Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2012, 06:57:43 PM »

without asking i know he would agree the problem isn't non jewish but The covenant is made with the jews so it cannot be fulfilled without them. he is expecting a ethnic israel kingdom to inherit the promises promised to the people of God. with which we are grafted into.

The Old Covenant is, as is the New, but those who reject the New are no longer properly of the People of Israel. Rather, the Israel of God is the Church. He has to prove that there is a theological difference in being Jewish vs. being Gentile. I think St. Paul snuffs that quite soundly:

"Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
-Galatians 3:21-29

All who are baptized into Christ are "heirs according to the promise", not simply those who belong to the Jewish ethnic group.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 07:06:38 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Seafra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: British Orthodox hopeful
Posts: 240


It's in the shelter of each other that people live

Mr.Dougherty
WWW
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2012, 06:59:59 PM »

thank you i used other verses those are helpful as well!
Logged
Hrugnir
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox-leaning Lutheran
Posts: 26


« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2012, 02:25:41 PM »

While I'm not big on Zionism anymore, I'm wondering what you guys make of this passage. It's one of the ones that most clearly seems to make a post-New Covenant distinction between Jews and Gentiles, in my ears:

Quote
So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,
‘Out of Zion will come the Deliverer;
   he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.’
‘And this is my covenant with them,
   when I take away their sins.’
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
(Romans 11:25-32)

The sense I make of it today is that Paul is prophecying of a final large-scale repentance of Jews which will, along with the massive amount of Gentiles in the Covenant, will be a salvation of the "whole" Israel, Gentile and Jew.

What do the Fathers say?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 02:27:49 PM by Hrugnir » Logged
Seafra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: British Orthodox hopeful
Posts: 240


It's in the shelter of each other that people live

Mr.Dougherty
WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2012, 02:31:22 PM »

While I'm not big on Zionism anymore, I'm wondering what you guys make of this passage. It's one of the ones that most clearly seems to make a post-New Covenant distinction between Jews and Gentiles, in my ears:

Quote
So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,
‘Out of Zion will come the Deliverer;
   he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.’
‘And this is my covenant with them,
   when I take away their sins.’
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
(Romans 11:25-32)

The sense I make of it today is that Paul is prophecying of a final large-scale repentance of Jews which will, along with the massive amount of Gentiles in the Covenant, will be a salvation of the "whole" Israel, Gentile and Jew.

What do the Fathers say?
The understanding i have of it all is that the Church follows and continues the Israel that God has a covenant with. This does not nullify the role Ethnic Jews will have in the end times nor that they will infact turn to Christ. But then they will rejoin in covenant and become part of the Church. That was my argument, Apart from Christ there is no covenant. Ethnic Jews are in no covenant but they are prophesied to enter into one when they accept Christ... but i may be wrong...
Logged
Tzimis
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,374



« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2012, 02:39:26 PM »

While I'm not big on Zionism anymore, I'm wondering what you guys make of this passage. It's one of the ones that most clearly seems to make a post-New Covenant distinction between Jews and Gentiles, in my ears:

Quote
So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,
‘Out of Zion will come the Deliverer;
   he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.’
‘And this is my covenant with them,
   when I take away their sins.’
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
(Romans 11:25-32)

The sense I make of it today is that Paul is prophecying of a final large-scale repentance of Jews which will, along with the massive amount of Gentiles in the Covenant, will be a salvation of the "whole" Israel, Gentile and Jew.

What do the Fathers say?



The bible also states..

Quote
1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


From that we see that Israel isn't contained in the flesh.

Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
Hrugnir
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox-leaning Lutheran
Posts: 26


« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2012, 07:12:16 PM »

I'm well aware of those passages, but that still doesn't explain what St. Paul is talking about when he says that they are "enemies as regards to the Gospel" but "beloved as regards election".

Any ideas?
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2012, 08:16:07 PM »

I'm well aware of those passages, but that still doesn't explain what St. Paul is talking about when he says that they are "enemies as regards to the Gospel" but "beloved as regards election".

Any ideas?

Perhaps that, while not all accept the Gospel and activity act against it, it is still from amongst them that Christ is born and salvation comes to all?
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Tzimis
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,374



« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2012, 11:14:47 PM »

I'm well aware of those passages, but that still doesn't explain what St. Paul is talking about when he says that they are "enemies as regards to the Gospel" but "beloved as regards election".

Any ideas?

They were chosen by god through the promise given to Abraham and again through Noah. They lost the election in disobedience to the gospel but they still have a chance to accept it and be saved if they will it.
Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2012, 03:12:38 PM »

Maybe this verses will help :

Isaiah 65:13Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“My servants will eat,

but you will go hungry;

my servants will drink,

but you will go thirsty;

my servants will rejoice,

but you will be put to shame.

14My servants will sing

out of the joy of their hearts,

but you will cry out

from anguish of heart

and wail in brokenness of spirit.

15You will leave your name

to my chosen ones as a curse;

the Sovereign Lord will put you to death,

but to his servants he will give another name.

Isaiah 43:18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

Isaiah 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, [and] rivers in the desert.

Isaiah 65:17 "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Jeremiah 16:14 "However, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,'

Jeremiah 16:15 but they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.

Jeremiah 23:7 "So then, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when people will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,'

Jeremiah 23:8 but they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' Then they will live in their own land."

Isaiah 42:9See, the former things have taken place,

and new things I declare;

before they spring into being

I announce them to you.”



Isaiah 42: 10Sing to the Lord a new song,

his praise from the ends of the earth,

you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,

you islands, and all who live in them.

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

I think we need to interpret this verse in order to understand the relationship between the jews and the covenants, even the new covenant :

Ezekiel 16:59 Thus saith the Lord; I will even do to thee as thou hast done, as thou hast dealt shamefully in these things to transgress my covenant. 60 And I will remember my covenant made with thee in the days of thine infancy, and I will establish to thee an everlasting covenant. 61 Then thou shalt remember thy way, and shalt be utterly dishonoured when thou receivest thine elder sisters with thy younger ones: and I will give them to thee for building up, but not by thy covenant. 62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: 63 that thou mayest remember, and be ashamed, and mayest no more be able to open thy mouth for thy shame, when I am reconciled to thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,559



WWW
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2013, 10:02:36 PM »

I think that it is easy to become confused on this question. In fact, while this thread seems to reject Supersessionism, another thread "Israel", seems to accept it:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,263.0.html

My impression is this: We are talking about two different categories:

A. Israel

B. God's Covenant

In the first category (A), God's people Israel has not been replaced with a different Israel. Instead, the Church is that same Israel. However, many pharisees decided that they were no longer going to be part of God's people. Yet on the other hand, many non-Jews decided to belong to God. So while people come and go, the Church, God's people Israel remains.

In the second category (B), God gave a New Covenant that takes precedence over the Old one. The Old one is not void, since God keeps his promises, and St Paul expected that the pharisees would become Christian. But the New one takes precedence, because Christ made the new one and fulfilled the old one with his sacrifice. Otherwise we (especially Jewish converts to Christianity) would still be following Old Testament rules like circumcision and animal sacrifice.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 10:02:58 PM by rakovsky » Logged
Tags: supersessionism 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.131 seconds with 51 queries.