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Author Topic: Reservations to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware  (Read 4645 times) Average Rating: 0
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Incognito777
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« on: February 13, 2013, 12:11:02 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.



Forbidden epithet replaced with something more acceptable for the Public Forum  -PtA

Threads title changed due to violation of:

Practically speaking, academic discussion means not referring to figures on your side as "St. so and so" while referring to figures of the other party as "the heretic so and so."  Instead, as with standard academic discourse, all historical figures will be referred to by name and location only, for instance "Leo of Rome" and "Dioscoros of Alexandria." It is presumed that posters reflect the position of faith of their Communion; for instance, it is presumed that an Eastern Orthodox member regards Chalcedon as an ecumenical and God-inspired council, while an Oriental Orthodox member regards Dioscoros of Alexandria as a teacher of the faith.  Therefore, it is not necessary for posters to continuously and aggressively point out the obvious in respect to the enumeration of councils, recognition of saints, etc.

Users are free free to accuse any hierarch of heresy and then attempt to prove it; they are not free to use the pejorative ad hominem heretic - MK. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 05:04:00 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 12:11:59 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

 Huh
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 12:15:35 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

By what authority do you invoke the Councils and Fathers to anathematize a Metropolitan? Wink
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 12:19:52 AM by Nephi » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 12:19:10 AM »

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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 12:20:12 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

And yet, unless you go to the people not in communion with the patriarchates (and often not in communion with one another), you are in communion with him. It is the same with Metropolitan Niccolae of Romania, who after blatantly communing at a Roman Catholic altar, and possibly receiving some sort of discipline, is still functioning as a Metropolitan, last I heard. Even in the time of the Ecumenical Councils, things happened.

You can denounce from your soap box until you're hoarse. Your complaint will be duly noted in the Orthodox Church's Complaints Department. It will be answered in the order it was received. Due to a thousand year backlog, it looks like you'll be waiting awhile. The good news is, the Lord may return before then. Have a nice day.
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 12:20:45 AM »

And it's not even April yet! Bless you, sir or ma'am incognito, for this comedic interlude from sanity.
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 12:21:45 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

By what authority do you invoke the Councils and Fathers to anathematize a Metropolitan? Wink

He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.

What further need to we have of witnesses?
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 12:26:47 AM »

He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.

What further need to we have of witnesses?

A layman wields the power of the Councils to anathematize hierarchs? By Crom, I didn't realize we held such power!
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 12:31:42 AM »

He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.

What further need to we have of witnesses?

A layman wields the power of the Councils to anathematize hierarchs? By Crom, I didn't realize we held such power!

Well, the argument is that, since the councils issued the anathema, it stands as anathema. Now, as for depositions, that is for a local council to do. I'm not defending the soapboxing, as you see above, just saying one can "fall under anathema" according to at least one school of thought. Of course, there needs to be an ecclesiastical trial. But, apparently, even a laymen can accuse a metropolitan of heresy. Of course, there is a proper way to do this and a useless way to do this.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 12:36:05 AM »

Well, the argument is that, since the councils issued the anathema, it stands as anathema. Now, as for depositions, that is for a local council to do. I'm not defending the soapboxing, as you see above, just saying one can "fall under anathema" according to at least one school of thought. Of course, there needs to be an ecclesiastical trial. But, apparently, even a laymen can accuse a metropolitan of heresy. Of course, there is a proper way to do this and a useless way to do this.

True enough.
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 12:41:57 AM »

Why does Orthodoxy make so many people crazy?
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 12:43:21 AM »

Why does Orthodoxy make so many people crazy?

Fwiw some of us calm down eventually. Kinda.  angel
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 12:44:04 AM »

Why does Orthodoxy make so many people crazy?

Wrong question. Orthodoxy does not make people crazy. Crazy people happen to be Orthodox, just as they happen to belong to other religions (including atheism, which is the religion which believes God does not exist).
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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 12:44:44 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites.
What monophysites?

« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 12:47:19 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 12:45:17 AM »

Well, there's Orthodoxy and then there there's the "True" Orthodoxy of the occasional internet convert (see, if you dare, the OP's YouTube channel). It's best not to confuse the two just because such people are much louder than their actual numbers might suggest.
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 12:47:35 AM »

Well, there's Orthodoxy and then there there's the "True" Orthodoxy of the occasional internet convert (see, if you dare, the OP's YouTube channel). It's best not to confuse the two just because such people are much louder than their actual numbers might suggest.

The OP is "True" Orthodox of the HOTCA variety, it seems.
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2013, 12:48:56 AM »

I hate to say it, but it's posts like this that actually scares me away from old calendarism. I know it should be about the actual issues, not the people, and I know there are kind people in traditionalist churches (almost certainly the majority)... but it's not about the people so much as the tone and mindset sometimes...,there just seems to be a narrowness of mind and spirit that makes it difficult for me to say "Yeah, I could work out my salvation there..." I have enough issues while in world Orthodoxy, without making it harder...  
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 12:50:23 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

By what authority do you invoke the Councils and Fathers to anathematize a Metropolitan? Wink

You're joking right? You do understand that councils and the Holy Fathers have the greatest authority in the Church, right?
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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2013, 12:51:04 AM »

The OP is "True" Orthodox of the HOTCA variety, it seems.

Alright. I don't know what that means. I just mean that most of the people I know who are Orthodox and not crazy do not go around calling themselves or their churches "True" Orthodox. "Orthodox" itself is enough of a descriptor. Smiley

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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 12:54:03 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Monophysites. See this response to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_oArbbdms&list=UUh074oPigJcEGkWbj7j7zKQ&index=2

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

By what authority do you invoke the Councils and Fathers to anathematize a Metropolitan? Wink

You're joking right? You do understand that councils and the Holy Fathers have the greatest authority in the Church, right?

Yes. And it takes bishops to enforce them and, theoretically according to Fr. Georges Florovsky, the people. But unless you are planning some sort of mob action or a concerted letter writing campaign to the Holy Synod of Constantinople (good luck with that) to dethrone and anathematize a metropolitan with whom you are not in communion, what is your point?
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 12:54:25 AM »

The OP is "True" Orthodox of the HOTCA variety, it seems.

Alright. I don't know what that means. I just mean that most of the people I know who are Orthodox and not crazy do not go around calling themselves or their churches "True" Orthodox. "Orthodox" itself is enough of a descriptor. Smiley



HOTCA is one of the "Genuine Orthodox Churches" coming out of the Greek Old Calendar schisms.
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« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2013, 12:55:22 AM »

The OP is "True" Orthodox of the HOTCA variety, it seems.

Alright. I don't know what that means. I just mean that most of the people I know who are Orthodox and not crazy do not go around calling themselves or their churches "True" Orthodox. "Orthodox" itself is enough of a descriptor. Smiley



I'm still hoping to see a Real Honest and Truly Orthodox Church, just to finally separate it from all the other impostors so that confusion may cease and people may see the light.
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« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2013, 12:57:37 AM »

The OP is "True" Orthodox of the HOTCA variety, it seems.

Alright. I don't know what that means. I just mean that most of the people I know who are Orthodox and not crazy do not go around calling themselves or their churches "True" Orthodox. "Orthodox" itself is enough of a descriptor. Smiley

To be honest, I never much liked this argument. First, the Fathers spoke of "true faith" and "true religion" and such, so they didn't have a problem modifying things with the word true when the context should have made it clear what they were talking about. And second, Orthodox is itself an addition... I mean, we don't go around just calling ourself "the way" or "Christian" much without it being modified, as they did in New Testament times. Catholic, Orthodox, holy, etc. are all modifiers we've added. It doesn't mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves to be "the holiest of the holy" in some prideful manner.
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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2013, 01:02:27 AM »



Yes. And it takes bishops to enforce them and, theoretically according to Fr. Georges Florovsky, the people. But unless you are planning some sort of mob action or a concerted letter writing campaign to the Holy Synod of Constantinople (good luck with that) to dethrone and anathematize a metropolitan with whom you are not in communion, what is your point?
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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2013, 01:05:25 AM »

Shanghaiski,

Your safe with Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church, under Metropolitan Theodore,
GOC under Archbishop Makarios,
GOC under Archbishop Kallinikos (I think),
Russian True Orthodox Church, under Bishop Stefan (I think),

The TOC of Serbia.

As far as I know, everyone else has succumbed to the heresy of Ecumenism and are invalidated.

Proper titles added - MK



« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 05:43:21 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2013, 01:08:55 AM »

Shanghaiski,

Your safe with Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church, under Metropolitan Theodore,
GOC under Makarios,
GOC under Kallinikos (I think),

therefore, I am. (DesCartes)

Are any of these groups (above and below this text) in communion with each other?

Russian True Orthodox Church, under Bishop Stefan (I think),

The TOC of Serbia.

As far as I know, everyone else has succumbed to the heresy of Ecumenism and are invalidated.

Where were you (besides incognito) when we were discussing headcoverings?   Huh
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2013, 01:15:02 AM »

To be honest, I never much liked this argument. First, the Fathers spoke of "true faith" and "true religion" and such, so they didn't have a problem modifying things with the word true when the context should have made it clear what they were talking about. And second, Orthodox is itself an addition... I mean, we don't go around just calling ourself "the way" or "Christian" much without it being modified, as they did in New Testament times. Catholic, Orthodox, holy, etc. are all modifiers we've added. It doesn't mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves to be "the holiest of the holy" in some prideful manner.

You seem to be kind of all over the place here, Asteriktos. Of course the fathers spoke of "true" faith and religion. It's not the word "true" that's the problem. As you write a bit later, Orthodox itself is an addition, and it does not mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves holy in a prideful manner. That was kind of my whole point: These "True" Orthodox folks (or at least some of them who are very loud on the internet) set themselves up against everybody and everything else on the basis of ____ (whatever: opposition to ecumenism, opposition to Nikonian reforms, etc.), which is pretty prideful. For the rest of us, who are just trying to be Orthodox in regular parishes that don't define themselves by what they're not, "Orthodox" says it all (as Orthodoxy is the true faith in the first place...as it was when we called it "the way" or whatever else...a rose by any other name, y'know?).
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2013, 01:26:30 AM »

Hmmmmm...Too much like another Member777 we once had, a faux-Orthodox who ravaged us for several years until self-outting himself on another forum as a never-Orthodox.
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2013, 01:30:38 AM »

Hmmmmm...Too much like another Member777 we once had, a faux-Orthodox who ravaged us for several years until self-outting himself on another forum as a never-Orthodox.

Say what? That is shocking news to me  Sad
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2013, 01:39:30 AM »

Hmmmmm...Too much like another Member777 we once had, a faux-Orthodox who ravaged us for several years until self-outting himself on another forum as a never-Orthodox.

Say what? That is shocking news to me  Sad

There was another member, a mog144, who was also never Orthodox Christian, but who has ravaged the OC on several forums. The months of January and February of this year have been weird with fixations on the numbers 7 and 12.
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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2013, 02:16:05 AM »

I hate to say it, but it's posts like this that actually scares me away from old calendarism. I know it should be about the actual issues, not the people, and I know there are kind people in traditionalist churches (almost certainly the majority)... but it's not about the people so much as the tone and mindset sometimes...,there just seems to be a narrowness of mind and spirit that makes it difficult for me to say "Yeah, I could work out my salvation there..." I have enough issues while in world Orthodoxy, without making it harder...  

+ 1

It's an ecumenical phenomenon. Same seems to apply small independent confessional Lutheran churches in Finland. Angry religious people are scary.
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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2013, 11:23:28 PM »


Forbidden epithet replaced with something more acceptable for the Public Forum  -PtA

Why is it forbidden? Politically correct terminology for modernists and ecumenists? The Ecumenical Councils used the term Monophysites. Do you have great understanding than the God-bearing Fathers? The term "oriental orthodox" has no historical validity. Read this article.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/zisis.pdf

Are you a pleaser of men? How serious are you about your faith? Are you a conformist because you are afraid of persecution?

You were warned by another of my teammates to not use the epithet in your posts on the Public Forum. You were also placed on Warned status for disputing moderator actions in public. If you had read the Forum Rules as I asked you to do, you would know that these actions are forbidden and why they are forbidden.

For continuing to argue with moderatorial actions in public like this, you are now on Post Moderation for the next 99 days. During the time of your moderation, you will still be able to post, but every one of your posts will need moderator approval to appear on the forum. If you still insist on behaving as you have thus far, you will be muted.

This is not an attempt to silence your strict, traditionalist message against ecumenism and the New Calendar, since we permit others to express the same views you have expressed. You are having your posting privileges restricted because you have shown that you cannot or will not speak your message in a manner that is consistent with the rules of the OC.net discussion forum. Again, if you wish to dispute the action I have taken, please do so only via private message to me.

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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2013, 11:26:10 PM »

Well, there's Orthodoxy and then there there's the "True" Orthodoxy of the occasional internet convert (see, if you dare, the OP's YouTube channel). It's best not to confuse the two just because such people are much louder than their actual numbers might suggest.

I think most people who claim to be Orthodox today are not fully converted. Everyone is called to convert.
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2013, 11:28:39 PM »

Yeah, most of us have a jurisdiction, too. What a bunch of sellouts, huh?
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2013, 11:34:46 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils used the term Monophysites.

Yet they never once described a Christology that the Orientals actually believed in.
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2013, 11:55:41 PM »

Well, there's Orthodoxy and then there there's the "True" Orthodoxy of the occasional internet convert (see, if you dare, the OP's YouTube channel). It's best not to confuse the two just because such people are much louder than their actual numbers might suggest.

I think most people who claim to be Orthodox today are not fully converted. Everyone is called to convert.
So how long ago did you convert?
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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2013, 12:17:10 AM »

Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. (2 Timothy 2:21-26). 

May the Lord deliver you, Incognito777.
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2013, 02:09:15 AM »

I hate to say it, but it's posts like this that actually scares me away from old calendarism. I know it should be about the actual issues, not the people, and I know there are kind people in traditionalist churches (almost certainly the majority)... but it's not about the people so much as the tone and mindset sometimes...,there just seems to be a narrowness of mind and spirit that makes it difficult for me to say "Yeah, I could work out my salvation there..." I have enough issues while in world Orthodoxy, without making it harder...  

I just want to say as an Old Calendarist Orthodox Christian that I completely understand your sentiments. When I was in World Orthodoxy I honestly thought that the majority of Old Calendarists were probably like Incognito777. It wasn't until I actually met some in person, especially my bishop, that my opinion of them in that regard has completely changed as I have met some of the most humble loving people that I know. Sure, we do have our crazies, but out of all of the Old Calendarists I have met (which I admit I have only met probably about 50-ish) I've only met a few who came across as such. But on the other side I also knew of crazy sorts of people back in World Orthodoxy as well.

To Incognito777: While I don't necessarily disagree with much of what you've been saying, we must be careful that we're speaking the truth in love. Our efforts should be to bring people to the Church, not away from it. It is possible, if you read the forum rules, to abide by the rules and not deny your faith. Make sure you read them so you'll know how to post on this forum. Remember that there's a difference between boldly proclaiming the truth in love and speaking the truth with pride and arrogance.
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« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2013, 03:41:02 AM »

From what I understand about the controversy with Ecumenism, the anathemas were directed at those who either endorsed heretical ideas or teach some form of 'branch theory', where all Christian faiths are a part of the same church somehow. I don't think sitting down and talking to people of others faiths or traditions, trying to find points of agreement and co-operation, is quite the same thing as proclaiming a branch theory or endorsing their ideas, but that's just me. But I would still say that Metropolitan Kallistos Ware was wrong to give communion to members of the Oriental Church and should have been punished, if it even happened that is. And I generally like the man. But still. Rules are rules, canons and canons.



Proper titles inserted into post, and excessively familiar reference to a bishop replaced with something more respectful.  -PtA
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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2013, 03:58:03 AM »

I hate to say it, but it's posts like this that actually scares me away from old calendarism. I know it should be about the actual issues, not the people, and I know there are kind people in traditionalist churches (almost certainly the majority)... but it's not about the people so much as the tone and mindset sometimes...,there just seems to be a narrowness of mind and spirit that makes it difficult for me to say "Yeah, I could work out my salvation there..." I have enough issues while in world Orthodoxy, without making it harder... 

I just want to say as an Old Calendarist Orthodox Christian that I completely understand your sentiments. When I was in World Orthodoxy I honestly thought that the majority of Old Calendarists were probably like Incognito777. It wasn't until I actually met some in person, especially my bishop, that my opinion of them in that regard has completely changed as I have met some of the most humble loving people that I know. Sure, we do have our crazies, but out of all of the Old Calendarists I have met (which I admit I have only met probably about 50-ish) I've only met a few who came across as such. But on the other side I also knew of crazy sorts of people back in World Orthodoxy as well.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience on this Smiley

But I would still say that Metropolitan Kallistos Ware was wrong to give communion to members of the Oriental Church and should have been punished, if it even happened that is. And I generally like the man. But still. Rules are rules, canons and canons.

But it's not uncommon, and even officially sancationed by some Churches (e.g. Antioch). I don't know about Constantinople, though they were certainly cozy with the Anglicans in the early 20th century, and recognized Lutheran baptism not too long ago. It's a mess...
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« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2013, 04:06:10 AM »

I love, respect, and personally appreciate those gracious and humble Orthodox Priests who simply require that one is a baptized Orthodox Christian that desires to avail themselves of the Sacraments of the Faith. Love is the greatest truth (for God is love), and such truth overwhelms manmade political divisions. I am deeply grateful to the Greek Orthodox Priests who have offered the Mysteries to our family without any qualms. If they are heretics, then send me to a heretics' heaven.



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« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2013, 04:26:05 AM »

Sorry Moderators. I didn't mean in any wise to disrespect the Metropolitan. I am still quite unfamiliar with proper Orthodox etiquette with respect to giving proper honor to clergy. Something I will work on.

I was under the impression that giving communion to anyone under an anathema is in violation of the canons, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding it. 
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« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2013, 08:16:41 AM »


 The Ecumenical Councils used the term Monophysites.

Chalcedon did not use it and neither did Constantinople II. Could you quote Mansi to prove this assertion?
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« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2013, 08:50:10 AM »

To be honest, I never much liked this argument. First, the Fathers spoke of "true faith" and "true religion" and such, so they didn't have a problem modifying things with the word true when the context should have made it clear what they were talking about. And second, Orthodox is itself an addition... I mean, we don't go around just calling ourself "the way" or "Christian" much without it being modified, as they did in New Testament times. Catholic, Orthodox, holy, etc. are all modifiers we've added. It doesn't mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves to be "the holiest of the holy" in some prideful manner.

You seem to be kind of all over the place here, Asteriktos. Of course the fathers spoke of "true" faith and religion. It's not the word "true" that's the problem. As you write a bit later, Orthodox itself is an addition, and it does not mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves holy in a prideful manner. That was kind of my whole point: These "True" Orthodox folks (or at least some of them who are very loud on the internet) set themselves up against everybody and everything else on the basis of ____ (whatever: opposition to ecumenism, opposition to Nikonian reforms, etc.), which is pretty prideful. For the rest of us, who are just trying to be Orthodox in regular parishes that don't define themselves by what they're not, "Orthodox" says it all (as Orthodoxy is the true faith in the first place...as it was when we called it "the way" or whatever else...a rose by any other name, y'know?).

Wow, QFT !
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« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2013, 09:19:00 AM »

You seem to be kind of all over the place here, Asteriktos. Of course the fathers spoke of "true" faith and religion. It's not the word "true" that's the problem. As you write a bit later, Orthodox itself is an addition, and it does not mean we're trying to proclaim ourselves holy in a prideful manner. That was kind of my whole point: These "True" Orthodox folks (or at least some of them who are very loud on the internet) set themselves up against everybody and everything else on the basis of ____ (whatever: opposition to ecumenism, opposition to Nikonian reforms, etc.), which is pretty prideful. For the rest of us, who are just trying to be Orthodox in regular parishes that don't define themselves by what they're not, "Orthodox" says it all (as Orthodoxy is the true faith in the first place...as it was when we called it "the way" or whatever else...a rose by any other name, y'know?).

I don't quite understand... from their perspective it was the other people who went into schism, they simply added the words like true or genuine to distinguish themselves... sort of the same situation with Orthodox calling themselves Orthodox to distinguish themselves from Catholics.
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« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2013, 09:50:40 AM »

He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.

What further need to we have of witnesses?

A layman wields the power of the Councils to anathematize hierarchs? By Crom, I didn't realize we held such power!

Be careful using a fictional pagan deity or you might also get anathematized.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2013, 10:02:43 AM »

This reminds me hearing a Protestant Reformed minister proclaiming the Christian Reformed Church to be apostate.
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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2013, 11:38:12 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox.


Not trying to be difficult or anything, but since there is no real source for the "writing" from 1984 in either the OP or the brief video on YouTube, does anyone know if the Metropolitan actually did write something on this and if so where?

Or as they say on Wikis "Citation needed".   Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2013, 09:14:28 PM »

He might say by the authority of the councils themselves. And, if clever, turn your question back on you since you allude to a question posed by the enemies of Christ.

What further need to we have of witnesses?

A layman wields the power of the Councils to anathematize hierarchs? By Crom, I didn't realize we held such power!

Be careful using a fictional pagan deity or you might also get anathematized.   Roll Eyes

What?
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« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2013, 09:16:12 PM »

LOL
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« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2013, 09:18:32 PM »

What?

Crom is a fictional deity in Robert E. Howard's world most famous for Conan the Barbarian.

I'm glad he knew what it was at least. I was afraid nobody would. Wink
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« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2013, 09:23:18 PM »

What?

Crom is a fictional deity in Robert E. Howard's world most famous for Conan the Barbarian.

I'm glad he knew what it was at least. I was afraid nobody would. Wink

Not sure what that had to do with what I wrote.
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« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2013, 09:25:27 PM »

Not sure what that had to do with what I wrote.

When I said "by Crom?"
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« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2013, 12:00:40 AM »

Not sure what that had to do with what I wrote.

When I said "by Crom?"

An oath to a false god.  Anathema!
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« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2013, 01:26:32 AM »

I was under the impression that giving communion to anyone under an anathema is in violation of the canons, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding it. 

That's correct. The double standard is mostly an emotional one, like in Gebre's post.
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« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2013, 02:25:12 AM »

The Ecumenical Councils used the term Monophysites.

Yet they never once described a Christology that the Orientals actually believed in.


Wow. So the council was wrong and Severus was right huh? Roger that...
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« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2013, 02:36:55 AM »

I have pretty much ignored this thread based merely off the title.  Now I wish my curiosity had not gotten the better of me. Sad
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« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2013, 04:00:16 AM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox.


Not trying to be difficult or anything, but since there is no real source for the "writing" from 1984 in either the OP or the brief video on YouTube, does anyone know if the Metropolitan actually did write something on this and if so where?

Or as they say on Wikis "Citation needed".   Smiley

Such a comment coming from his eminence would not surprise me, considering: 1) how friendly the EP has been with various groups since the early 20th century, sometimes even outright acknowledging that the sacraments of Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. are grace-filled; 2) how Orthodoxy has fluctuated on this generally; and 3) how he has let slip other statements over the years that he had to then go back and clarify and interpret in an Orthodox manner. But I do agree that, if a real conversation is to be made, it should be based on a verifiable quote and not hearsay. Now, if only I knew where I could find a reference proving or disproving the claim...
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« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2013, 04:37:11 AM »

I can testify he said he wouldn't give communion to Roman Catholics. I heard this myself.
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« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2013, 09:31:14 AM »

Wow. So the council was wrong and Severus was right huh? Roger that...

What? The councils not condemning Miaphysite Christology and the councils being wrong are not necessarily linked statements.
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« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2013, 12:04:30 PM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox.


Not trying to be difficult or anything, but since there is no real source for the "writing" from 1984 in either the OP or the brief video on YouTube, does anyone know if the Metropolitan actually did write something on this and if so where?

Or as they say on Wikis "Citation needed".   Smiley

Such a comment coming from his eminence would not surprise me, considering: 1) how friendly the EP has been with various groups since the early 20th century, sometimes even outright acknowledging that the sacraments of Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. are grace-filled; 2) how Orthodoxy has fluctuated on this generally; and 3) how he has let slip other statements over the years that he had to then go back and clarify and interpret in an Orthodox manner. But I do agree that, if a real conversation is to be made, it should be based on a verifiable quote and not hearsay. Now, if only I knew where I could find a reference proving or disproving the claim...

Exactly so, Asteriktos.  The OP and the video, having stated that the Metropolitan wrote something without giving a source, lack any proof for the accusation and therefore should not be trusted as accurate until such time as it is given  It is, as you wrote only hearsay until then.
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« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2013, 10:59:18 PM »

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

You may erase him from your diptychs, but since you are not a bishop the erasure is of little import.
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« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2013, 03:04:10 PM »

fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).

he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.
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« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »

Quote
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him

Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema.
You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented.
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« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2013, 03:34:43 PM »

Quote
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him

Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema.
You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented.

I saw a priest in my parish (GOA) give Communion to an Armenian lady. No one made a fuss about it.
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« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2013, 03:38:03 PM »

Quote
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him

Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema.
You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented.

I saw a priest in my parish (GOA) give Communion to an Armenian lady. No one made a fuss about it.
But we're talking about Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. If your priest did that, it's better to say that to your bishop instead of telling that to other people in your parish. And when your priest repent his fault that everything is ok.
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« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2013, 03:39:39 PM »

Quote
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox. See this response to him

Hello??! 1984!!!! Probably he repented his fault already and so there's no need for anathema.
You could list up of so many bishops, patriarchs, saints in orthodox history who had some heretical beliefs but after some time they repented.

I saw a priest in my parish (GOA) give Communion to an Armenian lady. No one made a fuss about it.
But we're talking about Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. If your priest did that, it's better to say that to your bishop instead of telling that to other people in your parish. And when your priest repent his fault that everything is ok.

Okay then.
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« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2013, 08:38:21 PM »

fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).

he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.

The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms.

Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim?

Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect.
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« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2013, 09:12:06 PM »

fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).

he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.

The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms.

Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim?

Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect.

Indeed. The OP was reported to the moderators for exactly this reason, and nothing seems to have been done about it.  Angry
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« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2013, 09:13:49 PM »

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.

You may erase him from your diptychs, but since you are not a bishop the erasure is of little import.


Isn't that what you do?
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« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2013, 12:32:10 AM »

What I do?  Angry Roll Eyes I'm not a bishop, and my church doesn't do diptychs, you know.
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« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2013, 01:19:20 AM »

What I do?  Angry Roll Eyes I'm not a bishop, and my church doesn't do diptychs, you know.


What is with the emoticons? I asked a question. Didn't you post something about not taking communion from bishops like Spong?
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« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2013, 02:19:54 AM »

fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).

he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.

The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms.

Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim?

Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect.
To the contrary, podkarpatska, the high regard Metropolitan Kallistos has within the mainstream of the Orthodox Church does not render him immune to criticism or charges of heresy. Likewise, our forum rules do not state with anywhere near as much clarity as you think that we are to refrain from calling Metropolitan Kallistos a heretic. The moderator team is currently reviewing this thread, so I ask formally that you stop misrepresenting forum policy and let us conduct our review. If you wish to complain further about the treatment Metropolitan Kallistos has received on this thread, please use the Report to Moderator function to register your complaint.

Thank you.

-PtA
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« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2013, 02:28:52 AM »

fixed the title!
(for my reply at least).

he has written some good books that were very helpful to huge numbers of people, may God bless his work.

The title has bothered me greatly. It is hardly a secret that many of us view each other as schismatics or in some cases even heretics. Our board rules preclude our calling each other such terms in no uncertain terms. Likewise we may not use the infamous "U" word in non historical terms.

Why then is it permissible to have a hierarch who is greatly respected by many of us and who has always been in good standing with his synod be called a "heretic" in a thread title and without a scintilla of evidentiary support for said claim?

Had the OP offered a hypothetical title of "The heretic John Doe" and said John Doe were a Metropolitan of the church, his honorific title would have been added per board policy. I think we owe Metropolitan Kallistos more respect.

Indeed. The OP was reported to the moderators for exactly this reason, and nothing seems to have been done about it.  Angry
Nothing has been done about your complaint, LBK, because our first review deemed that no rules had been violated. You are, however, coming dangerously close once again to violating our rule that moderator action/inaction not be criticized publicly. Consider this your last warning, then, that if you come even this close again to publicly criticizing our decisions, you will receive a formal warning. Please confine your criticism of our decisions to private conversations with the moderator team.

Thank you.

-PtA
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« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2013, 04:54:43 AM »

As you can see the OP has already been put under moderation ie. for misusing hierarchs' titles. I'm aware some of you in spirit of Christian love and humility would willingly impale him / her however the moderators' guidelines do not allow us to discipline several times for the same offence (there is something similar in the canon law, isn't it?).

If some of you STILL have some questions please, contact me, as PeterTheAleut pointed out, in private.
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« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2013, 11:38:07 AM »

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.
Newsflash! The mutual anathemas have been lifted.
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« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2013, 12:00:18 PM »

He is anathematized, and under the condemnation of the last four Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of Orthodoxy.
Newsflash! The mutual anathemas have been lifted.

Yeah, you're gonna have to back this up.
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« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2013, 12:05:25 PM »

Yeah, you're gonna have to back this up.
Yeah and you're gonna have to beg for it. This is common knowledge and I don't see why I should do your homework!
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« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2013, 12:08:19 PM »

The anathemas of Blachernae et al. have been lifted?
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« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2013, 12:27:29 PM »

Yeah, you're gonna have to back this up.
Yeah and you're gonna have to beg for it. This is common knowledge and I don't see why I should do your homework!

Idiocy.
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« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2013, 12:29:29 PM »

Idiocy.
We noticed Grin
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« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2013, 01:24:15 PM »

I thought the Chalcedons were back in communion with the OO. Huh
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« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2013, 01:25:19 PM »

I thought the Chalcedons were back in communion with the OO. Huh

 Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2013, 05:15:14 AM »

I thought the Chalcedons were back in communion with the OO. Huh
We are but the OP wasn't aware of it and when it was pointed out one person even asked for corroborating references and links!
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« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2013, 05:19:41 AM »

I thought the Chalcedons were back in communion with the OO. Huh
We are but the OP wasn't aware of it and when it was pointed out one person even asked for corroborating references and links!

Wrong. The OO and EO are not in communion, irrespective of what individual priests might do. No OO hierarch is on any EO diptychs, there has been no full reconciliation of the two churches. Dialogue, yes. Reconciliation and reunification, no.
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« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2013, 06:16:53 AM »

Wrong.
Whatever!

"The Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa have already accepted the outcome of the official dialogue on Christology between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the two official agreements: the first on Christology signed in June 1989 in Egypt and the second also on Christology and on the lifting of anathemas and restoration of full communion signed in Geneva 1990,

Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria




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« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2013, 06:23:59 AM »

Wrong.
Whatever!

"The Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa have already accepted the outcome of the official dialogue on Christology between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the two official agreements: the first on Christology signed in June 1989 in Egypt and the second also on Christology and on the lifting of anathemas and restoration of full communion signed in Geneva 1990,

Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria


Obviously no Orthodox priest, certainly not the Greek or Russian, in my neck of the woods, got the memo.  Roll Eyes I'm talking about at least 25 priests.
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« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2013, 08:04:02 AM »

What I do?  Angry Roll Eyes I'm not a bishop, and my church doesn't do diptychs, you know.


What is with the emoticons? I asked a question. Didn't you post something about not taking communion from bishops like Spong?

That's just me and anyone else I can convince to do likewise. It isn't as though it implies any sort of authority. Sorry for getting a bit testy.

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« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2013, 08:15:44 AM »

Obviously no Orthodox priest, certainly not the Greek or Russian, in my neck of the woods, got the memo.  Roll Eyes I'm talking about at least 25 priests.
Whatever!

The Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa
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« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2013, 08:20:42 AM »

That sounds like a bit of oikonomia on the part of the Alexandrian Patriarchate. No other Patriarchate has joined in, though, as far as I know, so yes... whatever. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #90 on: February 19, 2013, 08:28:55 AM »

Obviously no Orthodox priest, certainly not the Greek or Russian, in my neck of the woods, got the memo.  Roll Eyes I'm talking about at least 25 priests.
Whatever!

The Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa

Interesting that you chose not to quote this from the article in your link:

But since up until now we are waiting for the responses of the Holy Synods of some other churches in both families, the restoration of full communion is not yet reached between the two sides of the bi-lateral dialogue. (emphasis mine)

James

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« Reply #91 on: February 19, 2013, 08:37:49 AM »

Interesting that you chose not to quote this from the article in your link:
Much more interesting that you chose to, perhaps you wanted to create the impression that it somehow undermines the rest of the article and the point made.
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« Reply #92 on: February 19, 2013, 08:41:01 AM »

Interesting that you chose not to quote this from the article in your link:
Much more interesting that you chose to, perhaps you wanted to create the impression that it somehow undermines the rest of the article and the point made.

... which it does. Intercommunion between churches means the whole shebang. The fact that only a single EO jurisdiction out of 16? has signed this agreement and none of the others agree with it, it speaks volumes.
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« Reply #93 on: February 19, 2013, 08:47:24 AM »

Interesting that you chose not to quote this from the article in your link:
Much more interesting that you chose to, perhaps you wanted to create the impression that it somehow undermines the rest of the article and the point made.

No. I'm creating no impression the text of the article doesn't plainly make. It shows that the two Patriarchates of Alexandria have agreed in principle to restore communion, no doubt, but it equally clearly shows that communion is not fully restored in fact. On the contrary, there is simply an agreement between the two churches to treat the other's lay folk as Orthodox, but there is no concelebration nor restoration of communion between the two Patriarchates. Had we actually ended the schism I'd be overjoyed, but we haven't. The OOs and EOs remain out of communion with one another.

James
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« Reply #94 on: February 19, 2013, 08:57:15 AM »

... which it does.
Not if you take the time to peruse the site and all official documents including the Russian Orthodox endorsement.
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« Reply #95 on: February 19, 2013, 09:05:40 AM »

... which it does.
Not if you take the time to peruse the site and all official documents including the Russian Orthodox endorsement.

You're clutching at straws. Such "endorsements" don't matter a hill of beans if none of the clergy act on them. And, in my neck of the woods, none have. Remember that the Russian custom is "no communion without prior confession". This practice alone would easily detect and stop in its tracks anyone who is not EO and of a canonical jurisdiction.
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« Reply #96 on: February 19, 2013, 09:06:52 AM »

No. I'm creating no impression the text of the article doesn't plainly make.
I'm afraid thats precisely what you are attempting by offering a fallacy of equivocation, no one said the schism is over and it's disengenous to suggest otherwise. You may if you like disagree with the process to full communion embarked on by the Joint Commission but it will reach it's conclusion.

Get on board, or get out of the way!
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« Reply #97 on: February 19, 2013, 09:12:36 AM »

...in my neck of the woods, none have.
I'm hardly surprised news hasn't arrived in the backwoods yet, these things take a while to kick in but inevitably will, get over it.
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« Reply #98 on: February 19, 2013, 09:13:06 AM »

No. I'm creating no impression the text of the article doesn't plainly make.
I'm afraid thats precisely what you are attempting by offering a fallacy of equivocation, no one said the schism is over and it's disengenous to suggest otherwise. You may if you like disagree with the process to full communion embarked on by the Joint Commission but it will reach it's conclusion.

Get on board, or get out of the way!

I admire your optimism.  Roll Eyes The "agreement" was signed in 1990, and its practical application immediately sank without trace. It's dead. No amount of wishful thinking on your part will bring it back to life.
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« Reply #99 on: February 19, 2013, 09:16:18 AM »

...in my neck of the woods, none have.

I'm hardly surprised news hasn't arrived in the backwoods yet, these things take a while to kick in but inevitably will, get over it.

Patronizing will get you nowhere. I'm a city-dweller. I've been Orthodox for fifty years, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities, and I know your dream ain't gonna happen.
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« Reply #100 on: February 19, 2013, 09:16:42 AM »

No. I'm creating no impression the text of the article doesn't plainly make.
I'm afraid thats precisely what you are attempting by offering a fallacy of equivocation, no one said the schism is over and it's disengenous to suggest otherwise. You may if you like disagree with the process to full communion embarked on by the Joint Commission but it will reach it's conclusion.

Get on board, or get out of the way!

You quite clearly claimed that we were in communion with the OOs on the previous page of this thread. What on earth do think that would mean if not that the schism was healed? I don't disagree with attempts to heal the schism at all - quite the contrary - just your misguided and premature claims that we've already completed the process.

James
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« Reply #101 on: February 19, 2013, 09:27:30 AM »

I admire your optimism.  Roll Eyes The "agreement" was signed in 1990, and its practical application immediately sank without trace. It's dead.
I'm amused by your prevarication, the Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria was signed in 2001 and the work of the joint commission is ongoing.
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« Reply #102 on: February 19, 2013, 09:33:18 AM »

I admire your optimism.  Roll Eyes The "agreement" was signed in 1990, and its practical application immediately sank without trace. It's dead.
I'm amused by your prevarication, the Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria was signed in 2001 and the work of the joint commission is ongoing.

As James said: There is still no intercommunion between EO and OO. One jurisdiction going solo don't cut it.
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« Reply #103 on: February 19, 2013, 09:37:15 AM »

You quite clearly claimed that we were in communion with the OOs on the previous page of this thread.
You are either dileberatly misrepresenting the plain meaning of what I said or you clearly didn't read what I wrote. I strongly suggest you review the thread since my first post Reply #75 Newsflash! The mutual anathemas have been lifted. No communion does not mean full-reconcilliation and healing of the schism until the initiated process comes to fruition, a process both sides are committed to, whether you like it or not.
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« Reply #104 on: February 19, 2013, 09:45:44 AM »

One jurisdiction going solo don't cut it.
Let me spell this out then. Just how many jurisdictions do you count against it, none. Which jurisdiction is involved in the dialogue, the one with the direct historical concern, Alexandria. How many jurisdictions have approved and participated in the dialogue; Russian, Greek, Serbian, Romanian. The only people I see against the official process are the 'message (surf) boarders' here and a few rogue sites.

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« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2013, 10:56:30 AM »

One jurisdiction going solo don't cut it.
Let me spell this out then. Just how many jurisdictions do you count against it, none. Which jurisdiction is involved in the dialogue, the one with the direct historical concern, Alexandria. How many jurisdictions have approved and participated in the dialogue; Russian, Greek, Serbian, Romanian. The only people I see against the official process are the 'message (surf) boarders' here and a few rogue sites.



Participation in dialogue simple means "we've talked". Nothing more. I'll say it one more time: none of the other EO churches allow communion of OOs in their churches. Period.
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« Reply #106 on: February 19, 2013, 11:03:56 AM »

OK, can we make a distinction between limited intercommunion and full communion?

No, there has not been an agreement reached on full communion between all EO and OO Churches. Unfortunately, it probably won't happen in the near future either.

However, there have been local, limited intercommunion agreements between some EO and OO churches, spearheaded by the two Antiochian Jurisdictions. So let's not pretend that there is no intercommunion at all, as there clearly is.
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« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2013, 12:29:58 PM »

OK, can we make a distinction between limited intercommunion and full communion?

No, there has not been an agreement reached on full communion between all EO and OO Churches. Unfortunately, it probably won't happen in the near future either.

However, there have been local, limited intercommunion agreements between some EO and OO churches, spearheaded by the two Antiochian Jurisdictions. So let's not pretend that there is no intercommunion at all, as there clearly is.
But acknowledging that intercommunion is practiced in one jurisdiction is not the same as asserting that the EO and OO are now in communion with each other. Intercommunion is practiced, yes, but we are not in full communion with each other.
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« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2013, 12:35:01 PM »

OK, can we make a distinction between limited intercommunion and full communion?

No, there has not been an agreement reached on full communion between all EO and OO Churches. Unfortunately, it probably won't happen in the near future either.

However, there have been local, limited intercommunion agreements between some EO and OO churches, spearheaded by the two Antiochian Jurisdictions. So let's not pretend that there is no intercommunion at all, as there clearly is.
But acknowledging that intercommunion is practiced in one jurisdiction is not the same as asserting that the EO and OO are now in communion with each other. Intercommunion is practiced, yes, but we are not in full communion with each other.

That's pretty much exactly what I said...
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« Reply #109 on: February 19, 2013, 01:00:32 PM »

OK, can we make a distinction between limited intercommunion and full communion?

No, there has not been an agreement reached on full communion between all EO and OO Churches. Unfortunately, it probably won't happen in the near future either.

However, there have been local, limited intercommunion agreements between some EO and OO churches, spearheaded by the two Antiochian Jurisdictions. So let's not pretend that there is no intercommunion at all, as there clearly is.
But acknowledging that intercommunion is practiced in one jurisdiction is not the same as asserting that the EO and OO are now in communion with each other. Intercommunion is practiced, yes, but we are not in full communion with each other.
Which begs the question... How is one defining communion these days? Is there a real difference between being "full communion" and having intercommunion agreements, other than that some hierarchs aren't explicitly named in the diptychs? Isn't that a bit like having a divorced couple having an understood agreement to get along by in part not acknowledging they're divorced?

But the larger thrust of all of this is true. The majority of the EO have not entered into such agreements. There's no need to pretend that irregularities -- even well intended, and possibly good ones -- are the norm.
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« Reply #110 on: February 19, 2013, 01:56:22 PM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware confirmed in writing in 1984, that he gives Communion to Oriental Orthodox.
Would you care to share with us what Metropolitan Kallistos wrote in 1984 that supports this allegation?
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« Reply #111 on: February 19, 2013, 02:16:59 PM »

Not to beat a dead horse here but..

Which begs the question... How is one defining communion these days? Is there a real difference between being "full communion" and having intercommunion agreements, other than that some hierarchs aren't explicitly named in the diptychs? Isn't that a bit like having a divorced couple having an understood agreement to get along by in part not acknowledging they're divorced?
I would hate to use an example that is explicitly hated by the Lord as he said in Malachi 2:14, 16. Nothing good comes out of divorce, ever.

I would consider "full communion" as two parties in a covenant - like marriage - that enjoy the covenant, while intercommunion agreements is a covenant between two parties who don't fully appreciate the covenant yet - sort of like betrothal.

Quote
But the larger thrust of all of this is true. The majority of the EO have not entered into such agreements. There's no need to pretend that irregularities -- even well intended, and possibly good ones -- are the norm.
But this definition is also inadequate. These irregularities, while not the norm, is a step toward the goal officially agreed upon by the majority of EO and OO in the dialogues. Irregularity is not the same as popularity. What is irregular is not that some churches are having intercommunion agreements which are unpopular. What is irregular is that no one sees it as a step towards the agreed upon goal. What is irregular is trying to find ways to revert back to pre-20th century dialogue divisions by accusing the EO hierarchs of heresy for even considering unity instead of pushing forward toward unity as prescribed in the gospels.
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Incognito777
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« Reply #112 on: February 22, 2013, 02:06:51 AM »

How is everyone?
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« Reply #113 on: February 22, 2013, 02:08:29 AM »

How is everyone?
You'll see my answer in my previous post on this thread.
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