Topic: Women who refuse to wear headcoverings at monasteries ...

[Maria]

Starting a new thread because the other one keeps going off topic:

I have no opinion towards headcoverings; that is for each woman to decide freely; however, there should not be adverse consequences for failing to wear one whether at a monastery or any Orthodox church.

So, if a woman should visit an Orthodox Christian monastery which has extra scarves in a basket in the narthex for women to wear, then should she dare enter the monastery church without a headcovering?

Would you as a woman enter a monastery chapel without wearing a scarf if one were offered to you?

[Deep Roots]

You mean a woman like this?

[Maria]

You mean a woman like this?

Quoting YiaYia (on TV commercial):

You look like a prostitute! 
 

[mike]

3rd active thread about headcoverings!

[Arachne]

If one is simply offered something, they are free to turn it down.

If a church or monastery wants every female visitor to wear a head covering, they are free to make a requirement of it - plenty of secular establishments have dress codes, no surprise here - and enforce it. As long as it is not a requirement, covering is at the discretion of the visitor.

Much ado about nothing, really.

[Orthodox11]

Would you as a woman enter a monastery chapel without wearing a scarf if one were offered to you?

It is up to the abbot/ess of each monastery who is allowed to enter and on which terms. As guests we have no right to demand access on our own terms. If it says headscarf, wear a headscarf, if it says no jeans, then no jeans, if it says you have to come in a clown suit, then clown suit it is. In Kykkos monastery in Cyprus they give inappropriately dressed visitors (which most are due to the high temperatures) bright purple robes to put on - i'm sure they deliberately chose the worst colour possible to discourage people from coming without proper attire in future.

[Maria]

Would you as a woman enter a monastery chapel without wearing a scarf if one were offered to you?

It is up to the abbot/ess of each monastery who is allowed to enter and on which terms. As guests we have no right to demand access on our own terms. If it says headscarf, wear a headscarf, if it says no jeans, then no jeans, if it says you have to come in a clown suit, then clown suit it is. In Kykkos monastery in Cyprus they give inappropriately dressed visitors (which most are due to the high temperatures) bright purple robes to put on - i'm sure they deliberately chose the worst colour possible to discourage people from coming without proper attire in future.

I heard about another monastery who provides bright green sheets for both the men and women to wear.
They stand out like sore thumbs.

[Shiny]

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

[SolEX01]

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.

[Punch]

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.

Or a Godless Greek . . .

[Deep Roots]

You look like a prostitute! 
 

what if I told you that I've known women who look a lot like this who are some of the most devout women I know, who work and give themselves to the poor, who are wise in the things of God, who love deeply, who do not go after sexual relationship (some are virgins, or are at least not sexually involved at all), and are incredibly humble?

What if I told you that?  Because it's true.

[Justin Kissel]

[Shanghaiski]

You look like a prostitute! 
 

what if I told you that I've known women who look a lot like this who are some of the most devout women I know, who work and give themselves to the poor, who are wise in the things of God, who love deeply, who do not go after sexual relationship (some are virgins, or are at least not sexually involved at all), and are incredibly humble?

What if I told you that?  Because it's true.

Does she make a scene when asked to cover her head and wear a long skirt?

[Santagranddad]

Think I'll sit at the back on this one. Too much excitement is not good for my blood pressure or spiritual health.

[Deep Roots]

Does she make a scene when asked to cover her head and wear a long skirt?

#1 She's not Orthodox, so this isn't something something she encounters often.  And before you say that it doesn't count because she isn't Orthodox, the overall point remains the same.
#2 She dresses modestly to begin with, so she doesn't wear very short skirts.

[Deep Roots]

I should also note that Maria did a very sneaky thing by starting this new thread.  Her other thread was never about women "who refuse to wear headcoverings" if asked at a monastery...it was about headcoverings generally.

Here, she picks up a new thread and in her initial post suggests that this was because the other one got off topic......

So, she gets the topic back on track by...changing the topic?

See what she did?  Now she gets to start a new thread in order to talk about what she REALLY wanted to talk about to begin with -- "rebellious women."

Nice try, Maria, but your sneakiness didn't go unnoticed.

[Cantor Krishnich]

Venerates the icon .....The icon is showing the intensity of St. Mary's great fast, her unkept/tangled grey hair and emaciation show this. The only clothes she had was the cloak given to her by St. Zosima when he met her in the desert.  

[SolEX01]

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.

Or a Godless Greek . . .

Serbs, ROCOR and the Old Calendarist groups believe in headcoverings and God and everyone else is Godless?

[JamesR]

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

[Arachne]

That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

Ooookay... where's that brain bleach?

[SolEX01]

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

The monastery is akin to an intensive care unit while the church is like a general hospital for all sinners.  There are rules for visiting an intensive care unit like wearing a mask and gown.  No dispute there.

When you go to the hospital, you receive the treatment you need.  I can't be refused treatment if I show up wearing a baseball cap.

[PeterTheAleut]

I should also note that Maria did a very sneaky thing by starting this new thread.  Her other thread was never about women "who refuse to wear headcoverings" if asked at a monastery...it was about headcoverings generally.

Here, she picks up a new thread and in her initial post suggests that this was because the other one got off topic......

So, she gets the topic back on track by...changing the topic?

See what she did?  Now she gets to start a new thread in order to talk about what she REALLY wanted to talk about to begin with -- "rebellious women."

Nice try, Maria, but your sneakiness didn't go unnoticed.

Neither did it go unnoticed by me. You, Maria, have been trying for the last day or so to redefine the topic of discussion on the other thread so that anything other than what you want to talk about (or that calls out your hypocritical judgment of those who disagree with you) is off topic.

[Justin Kissel]

Venerates the icon .....The icon is showing the intensity of St. Mary's great fast, her unkept/tangled grey hair and emaciation show this. The only clothes she had was the cloak given to her by St. Zosima when he met her in the desert.  

Thank you for showing proper respect     I just figured with all the talk about prostitutes and piety and women with heads uncovered that I'd post an icon of St. Mary...

[JamesR]

Okay, here's a question; what if the headcovering is too distracting for others? In the old world they may be commonly accepted and seen as the norm, but over in the west, they are somewhat more foreign, and can thus distract other people in the Church. What would be the proper thing to do? God forgive me for saying it, but I've even found women in headcoverings at Church as being more attractive than when they don't have one on, because it seems so foreign and intriguing.

[biro]

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

The monastery is akin to an intensive care unit while the church is like a general hospital for all sinners.  There are rules for visiting an intensive care unit like wearing a mask and gown.  No dispute there.

When you go to the hospital, you receive the treatment you need.  I can't be refused treatment if I show up wearing a baseball cap.

I think that's a good way to put it.

[OrthoNoob]

If they have a basket outside with head coverings in it, take the hint. 

Seriously. Why is this such a big deal?

Suppose that next Sunday, every Orthodox priest in the world gets up and tells his flock that all women must wear head coverings in church, all the time, starting the Sunday after. So what? What would be the harm? Does this really come down to whining because "I wanna wear what I wanna wear"?

I hope not, but that seems to be the case.

[biro]

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.

[PeterTheAleut]

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.

Whom are you talking to?

[LBK]

Nobody yet has raised the matter of what the headcovering is made of, or what it actually covers. Headscarves can range between an opaque fabric which is arranged so that no hair at all is visible (or only a trace above the forehead), through to a narrow strip of almost transparent material which sits on top of the woman's head, or perhaps loosely wound around her neck, with practically all of her hair still visible, and variations thereof.

My own view? If a headcovering is to be worn, then the former should be the norm. The latter is simply pointless, IMHO.

[OrthoNoob]

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.

Whom are you talking to?

I think she's talking to me.

[OrthoNoob]

I'm not sure which post Biro thinks I failed to read, though...

[biro]

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.

Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

[OrthoNoob]

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.

Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

[biro]

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.

Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

Because it's asking me to do something, and if I don't think it's justified, who are you to make me?

[biro]

Think I'll just wear this if I have to go to church:



Or maybe, just not go. Didn't realize the sight of wavy hair caused such problems.

[OrthoNoob]

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.

Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

Because it's asking me to do something, and if I don't think it's justified, who are you to make me?

Just as I thought. "I wanna wear what I wanna wear."

And I'm no one to make you. And I don't make you. But if a parish wants to make you...it can (they usually don't, but they can). And certainly a monastery can. I am not seeing why this is a big deal.

Ye gods, what a first world problem.

[Deep Roots]

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.

[Shiny]

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.

yeah that deep rooted hair.

[Deep Roots]

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.

yeah that deep rooted hair.

brown hair...red hair...curly...mmmhmm bow chika wow wow

[katherine 2001]

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.

Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

Because it's asking me to do something, and if I don't think it's justified, who are you to make me?

Just as I thought. "I wanna wear what I wanna wear."

And I'm no one to make you. And I don't make you. But if a parish wants to make you...it can (they usually don't, but they can). And certainly a monastery can. I am not seeing why this is a big deal.

Ye gods, what a first world problem.

What if the men were required to wear the type of clothing that men wore in Jesus's time?  After all it can be a real distraction for women to see the outlines of men's legs when they wear pants (we would see so much less if they dressed as men did in NT times).  How many of you men would be willing to do that?  After all, monks don't go to church in pants and a shirt (those might be under their cassock, but their cassock is on top). 

[OrthoNoob]

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.

Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

Because it's asking me to do something, and if I don't think it's justified, who are you to make me?

Just as I thought. "I wanna wear what I wanna wear."

And I'm no one to make you. And I don't make you. But if a parish wants to make you...it can (they usually don't, but they can). And certainly a monastery can. I am not seeing why this is a big deal.

Ye gods, what a first world problem.

What if the men were required to wear the type of clothing that men wore in Jesus's time?  After all it can be a real distraction for women to see the outlines of men's legs when they wear pants (we would see so much less if they dressed as men did in NT times).  How many of you men would be willing to do that?  After all, monks don't go to church in pants and a shirt (those might be under their cassock, but their cassock is on top). 

That would be odd.

But if that were their requirement, and if they handed them out at the door, I really don't think the objection would be that strenuous. It certainly wouldn't be from me. Such a policy would probably get more weird looks than anything.

[yeshuaisiam]

Maria,

I absolutely believe that any Christian woman that respects the scriptures would put on a head covering period.   They should not have to put one on, as they would already have one on.

Our bodies are the temple of the holy spirit.  We were commanded to "pray without ceasing" and women should cover while praying.

EO women going without head coverings is modern.   Why not just start ignoring modesty while they are at it?

If people do not like this information, they do not like the scriptures (or disagree with this part of them), or they are simply mad and would father their will rather than the tradition of Christianity.

It shocks me that this *is* an issue within the church.

It is also written in the scriptures that a woman's hair is her "GLORY", and that the man is the "head" of women.  I've read writings from the 1400's depicting that women keep their hair for their husbands to see.

[yeshuaisiam]

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.

yeah that deep rooted hair.

brown hair...red hair...curly...mmmhmm bow chika wow wow

I know what you guys are saying is sarcasm.... but let me explain something (hard to explain from a 'worldly' point of view).

My wife, daughter, all of my wifes relatives, people in and near my community all cover and dress modestly & plain (mennonite).   Here is an example:


I did not grow up or live like this forever.  I was in world orthodoxy most of my life.

Let me tell you something brothers.....

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If it was not revealing, consider, why so many women spend $$$$ on hair products, shine, enhancers, coloring, etc etc etc... (and whatever that horrendous smelling stuff they use in salons)

A Christian sister should reserve her GLORY for her husband or future husband.  

She should not even help in the smallest way to lead a brother into temptation.

I heavily respect a woman who has the courage to help not make me fall even for the slightest glance.  If women care for the well being of the brothers in their churches, they should be very modest and cover their heads.

Now I'll go a bit more extreme:
1) It's hard to fall into lust when a woman is wearing a head covering.
2) It's hard to fall to lust when a woman's "curves" are not shown through tight clothing.
3) When dressed plainly, sisters of a church will never compete in garments, shoes, etc.
4) When not wearing costly array, the competition ends.

Anyway, I believe that the EO should take examples from their history and their nuns.

[PeterTheAleut]

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.

yeah that deep rooted hair.

brown hair...red hair...curly...mmmhmm bow chika wow wow

I know what you guys are saying is sarcasm.... but let me explain something (hard to explain from a 'worldly' point of view).

My wife, daughter, all of my wifes relatives, people in and near my community all cover and dress modestly & plain (mennonite).   Here is an example:


I did not grow up or live like this forever.  I was in world orthodoxy most of my life.

Let me tell you something brothers.....

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If it was not revealing, consider, why so many women spend $$$$ on hair products, shine, enhancers, coloring, etc etc etc... (and whatever that horrendous smelling stuff they use in salons)

A Christian sister should reserve her GLORY for her husband or future husband.  

She should not even help in the smallest way to lead a brother into temptation.

I heavily respect a woman who has the courage to help not make me fall even for the slightest glance.  If women care for the well being of the brothers in their churches, they should be very modest and cover their heads.

Now I'll go a bit more extreme:
1) It's hard to fall into lust when a woman is wearing a head covering.
2) It's hard to fall to lust when a woman's "curves" are not shown through tight clothing.
3) When dressed plainly, sisters of a church will never compete in garments, shoes, etc.
4) When not wearing costly array, the competition ends.

Anyway, I believe that the EO should take examples from their history and their nuns.

Head coverings are historical all through EO history (except recent).
Head coverings are traditional.
Head coverings are scriptural.
Head coverings are depicted by the Theotokos in icons.
Head coverings are depicted on women in 99.9% of icons (by personal observation).  (I've seen 4 examples (probably schlock) in tens of thousands of icons I've seen where head coverings on women were not used)

The hair of a woman is her glory, and through modesty standards many women feels it reserves it for her husband.  This is another reason many women cover.

Women were commanded in 1 Corinthians 11 to cover their heads while praying (and this was a practice of all the Jews & Christians) and in Thessolonians it was commanded to "pray without ceasing".

In my opinion, to argue these commands, history, traditions (of almost every Christian group that extends 200+ years), and the scriptures - are just people simply not wanting to do what they should.   Responses are often hostile by those who want to distort the scriptures, history, and traditions of Christianity.

Says the guy who jettisons what he doesn't like about a living tradition while he chases the dragon of "authenticity."

Where I'm from, that's called hypocrisy.

[JamesR]

The blondish one to the far right is very beautiful; think she would be interested in me?