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Author Topic: Women who refuse to wear headcoverings at monasteries ...  (Read 4234 times) Average Rating: 0
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Maria
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« on: February 12, 2013, 03:56:03 PM »

Starting a new thread because the other one keeps going off topic:


I have no opinion towards headcoverings; that is for each woman to decide freely; however, there should not be adverse consequences for failing to wear one whether at a monastery or any Orthodox church.


So, if a woman should visit an Orthodox Christian monastery which has extra scarves in a basket in the narthex for women to wear, then should she dare enter the monastery church without a headcovering?

Would you as a woman enter a monastery chapel without wearing a scarf if one were offered to you?



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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 03:58:45 PM »

You mean a woman like this?

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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 04:00:22 PM »

You mean a woman like this?



Quoting YiaYia (on TV commercial):

You look like a prostitute! 
 laugh
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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 04:02:11 PM »

3rd active thread about headcoverings!
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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 04:08:14 PM »

If one is simply offered something, they are free to turn it down.

If a church or monastery wants every female visitor to wear a head covering, they are free to make a requirement of it - plenty of secular establishments have dress codes, no surprise here - and enforce it. As long as it is not a requirement, covering is at the discretion of the visitor.

Much ado about nothing, really.
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 04:10:25 PM »

Would you as a woman enter a monastery chapel without wearing a scarf if one were offered to you?

It is up to the abbot/ess of each monastery who is allowed to enter and on which terms. As guests we have no right to demand access on our own terms. If it says headscarf, wear a headscarf, if it says no jeans, then no jeans, if it says you have to come in a clown suit, then clown suit it is. In Kykkos monastery in Cyprus they give inappropriately dressed visitors (which most are due to the high temperatures) bright purple robes to put on - i'm sure they deliberately chose the worst colour possible to discourage people from coming without proper attire in future.
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 04:14:12 PM »

Would you as a woman enter a monastery chapel without wearing a scarf if one were offered to you?

It is up to the abbot/ess of each monastery who is allowed to enter and on which terms. As guests we have no right to demand access on our own terms. If it says headscarf, wear a headscarf, if it says no jeans, then no jeans, if it says you have to come in a clown suit, then clown suit it is. In Kykkos monastery in Cyprus they give inappropriately dressed visitors (which most are due to the high temperatures) bright purple robes to put on - i'm sure they deliberately chose the worst colour possible to discourage people from coming without proper attire in future.

I heard about another monastery who provides bright green sheets for both the men and women to wear.
They stand out like sore thumbs.
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 04:21:28 PM »

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh
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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2013, 04:25:40 PM »

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.
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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 04:48:40 PM »

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.

Or a Godless Greek . . .
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 05:04:47 PM »


You look like a prostitute! 
 laugh

what if I told you that I've known women who look a lot like this who are some of the most devout women I know, who work and give themselves to the poor, who are wise in the things of God, who love deeply, who do not go after sexual relationship (some are virgins, or are at least not sexually involved at all), and are incredibly humble?

What if I told you that?  Because it's true.
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 05:07:01 PM »

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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 05:10:32 PM »


You look like a prostitute! 
 laugh

what if I told you that I've known women who look a lot like this who are some of the most devout women I know, who work and give themselves to the poor, who are wise in the things of God, who love deeply, who do not go after sexual relationship (some are virgins, or are at least not sexually involved at all), and are incredibly humble?

What if I told you that?  Because it's true.

Does she make a scene when asked to cover her head and wear a long skirt?
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 05:14:19 PM »

Think I'll sit at the back on this one. Too much excitement is not good for my blood pressure or spiritual health.
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 05:17:46 PM »


Does she make a scene when asked to cover her head and wear a long skirt?
#1 She's not Orthodox, so this isn't something something she encounters often.  And before you say that it doesn't count because she isn't Orthodox, the overall point remains the same.
#2 She dresses modestly to begin with, so she doesn't wear very short skirts.

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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2013, 05:20:54 PM »

I should also note that Maria did a very sneaky thing by starting this new thread.  Her other thread was never about women "who refuse to wear headcoverings" if asked at a monastery...it was about headcoverings generally.

Here, she picks up a new thread and in her initial post suggests that this was because the other one got off topic......

So, she gets the topic back on track by...changing the topic?

See what she did?  Now she gets to start a new thread in order to talk about what she REALLY wanted to talk about to begin with -- "rebellious women."

Nice try, Maria, but your sneakiness didn't go unnoticed.
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2013, 05:31:54 PM »



Venerates the icon Kiss.....The icon is showing the intensity of St. Mary's great fast, her unkept/tangled grey hair and emaciation show this. The only clothes she had was the cloak given to her by St. Zosima when he met her in the desert.  
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2013, 05:38:41 PM »

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.

Or a Godless Greek . . .

Serbs, ROCOR and the Old Calendarist groups believe in headcoverings and God and everyone else is Godless?
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2013, 05:44:38 PM »

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.
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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2013, 05:48:55 PM »

That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

Ooookay... where's that brain bleach?
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« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2013, 05:51:58 PM »

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

The monastery is akin to an intensive care unit while the church is like a general hospital for all sinners.  There are rules for visiting an intensive care unit like wearing a mask and gown.  No dispute there.

When you go to the hospital, you receive the treatment you need.  I can't be refused treatment if I show up wearing a baseball cap.
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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2013, 05:55:32 PM »

I should also note that Maria did a very sneaky thing by starting this new thread.  Her other thread was never about women "who refuse to wear headcoverings" if asked at a monastery...it was about headcoverings generally.

Here, she picks up a new thread and in her initial post suggests that this was because the other one got off topic......

So, she gets the topic back on track by...changing the topic?

See what she did?  Now she gets to start a new thread in order to talk about what she REALLY wanted to talk about to begin with -- "rebellious women."

Nice try, Maria, but your sneakiness didn't go unnoticed.
Neither did it go unnoticed by me. You, Maria, have been trying for the last day or so to redefine the topic of discussion on the other thread so that anything other than what you want to talk about (or that calls out your hypocritical judgment of those who disagree with you) is off topic.
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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2013, 05:58:48 PM »



Venerates the icon Kiss.....The icon is showing the intensity of St. Mary's great fast, her unkept/tangled grey hair and emaciation show this. The only clothes she had was the cloak given to her by St. Zosima when he met her in the desert.  

Thank you for showing proper respect  angel   I just figured with all the talk about prostitutes and piety and women with heads uncovered that I'd post an icon of St. Mary...
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« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2013, 06:04:16 PM »

Okay, here's a question; what if the headcovering is too distracting for others? In the old world they may be commonly accepted and seen as the norm, but over in the west, they are somewhat more foreign, and can thus distract other people in the Church. What would be the proper thing to do? God forgive me for saying it, but I've even found women in headcoverings at Church as being more attractive than when they don't have one on, because it seems so foreign and intriguing.
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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2013, 06:12:26 PM »

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

The monastery is akin to an intensive care unit while the church is like a general hospital for all sinners.  There are rules for visiting an intensive care unit like wearing a mask and gown.  No dispute there.

When you go to the hospital, you receive the treatment you need.  I can't be refused treatment if I show up wearing a baseball cap.

I think that's a good way to put it.
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2013, 06:23:51 PM »

If they have a basket outside with head coverings in it, take the hint.  Roll Eyes

Seriously. Why is this such a big deal?

Suppose that next Sunday, every Orthodox priest in the world gets up and tells his flock that all women must wear head coverings in church, all the time, starting the Sunday after. So what? What would be the harm? Does this really come down to whining because "I wanna wear what I wanna wear"?

I hope not, but that seems to be the case.
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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2013, 06:37:35 PM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
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« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2013, 06:44:17 PM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
Whom are you talking to?
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« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2013, 06:45:34 PM »

Nobody yet has raised the matter of what the headcovering is made of, or what it actually covers. Headscarves can range between an opaque fabric which is arranged so that no hair at all is visible (or only a trace above the forehead), through to a narrow strip of almost transparent material which sits on top of the woman's head, or perhaps loosely wound around her neck, with practically all of her hair still visible, and variations thereof.

My own view? If a headcovering is to be worn, then the former should be the norm. The latter is simply pointless, IMHO.
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« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2013, 06:45:49 PM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
Whom are you talking to?

I think she's talking to me.
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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2013, 06:46:28 PM »

I'm not sure which post Biro thinks I failed to read, though...
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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2013, 07:02:22 PM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.
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« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2013, 07:32:58 PM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?
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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2013, 07:34:22 PM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

Because it's asking me to do something, and if I don't think it's justified, who are you to make me?
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2013, 07:41:45 PM »

Think I'll just wear this if I have to go to church:



Or maybe, just not go. Didn't realize the sight of wavy hair caused such problems.
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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2013, 07:54:45 PM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

Because it's asking me to do something, and if I don't think it's justified, who are you to make me?

Just as I thought. "I wanna wear what I wanna wear."

And I'm no one to make you. And I don't make you. But if a parish wants to make you...it can (they usually don't, but they can). And certainly a monastery can. I am not seeing why this is a big deal.

Ye gods, what a first world problem.
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« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2013, 08:05:27 PM »

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.
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« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2013, 08:09:45 PM »

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.

yeah that deep rooted hair.
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« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2013, 08:12:39 PM »

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.

yeah that deep rooted hair.

brown hair...red hair...curly...mmmhmm bow chika wow wow
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« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2013, 08:29:12 PM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

Because it's asking me to do something, and if I don't think it's justified, who are you to make me?

Just as I thought. "I wanna wear what I wanna wear."

And I'm no one to make you. And I don't make you. But if a parish wants to make you...it can (they usually don't, but they can). And certainly a monastery can. I am not seeing why this is a big deal.

Ye gods, what a first world problem.

What if the men were required to wear the type of clothing that men wore in Jesus's time?  After all it can be a real distraction for women to see the outlines of men's legs when they wear pants (we would see so much less if they dressed as men did in NT times).  How many of you men would be willing to do that?  After all, monks don't go to church in pants and a shirt (those might be under their cassock, but their cassock is on top). 
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« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2013, 08:36:35 PM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

Because it's asking me to do something, and if I don't think it's justified, who are you to make me?

Just as I thought. "I wanna wear what I wanna wear."

And I'm no one to make you. And I don't make you. But if a parish wants to make you...it can (they usually don't, but they can). And certainly a monastery can. I am not seeing why this is a big deal.

Ye gods, what a first world problem.

What if the men were required to wear the type of clothing that men wore in Jesus's time?  After all it can be a real distraction for women to see the outlines of men's legs when they wear pants (we would see so much less if they dressed as men did in NT times).  How many of you men would be willing to do that?  After all, monks don't go to church in pants and a shirt (those might be under their cassock, but their cassock is on top). 

That would be odd.

But if that were their requirement, and if they handed them out at the door, I really don't think the objection would be that strenuous. It certainly wouldn't be from me. Such a policy would probably get more weird looks than anything.
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« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2013, 09:12:35 PM »

Maria,

I absolutely believe that any Christian woman that respects the scriptures would put on a head covering period.   They should not have to put one on, as they would already have one on.

Our bodies are the temple of the holy spirit.  We were commanded to "pray without ceasing" and women should cover while praying.

EO women going without head coverings is modern.   Why not just start ignoring modesty while they are at it?

If people do not like this information, they do not like the scriptures (or disagree with this part of them), or they are simply mad and would father their will rather than the tradition of Christianity.

It shocks me that this *is* an issue within the church.

It is also written in the scriptures that a woman's hair is her "GLORY", and that the man is the "head" of women.  I've read writings from the 1400's depicting that women keep their hair for their husbands to see.
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« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2013, 09:30:52 PM »

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.

yeah that deep rooted hair.

brown hair...red hair...curly...mmmhmm bow chika wow wow

I know what you guys are saying is sarcasm.... but let me explain something (hard to explain from a 'worldly' point of view).

My wife, daughter, all of my wifes relatives, people in and near my community all cover and dress modestly & plain (mennonite).   Here is an example:


I did not grow up or live like this forever.  I was in world orthodoxy most of my life.

Let me tell you something brothers.....

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If it was not revealing, consider, why so many women spend $$$$ on hair products, shine, enhancers, coloring, etc etc etc... (and whatever that horrendous smelling stuff they use in salons)

A Christian sister should reserve her GLORY for her husband or future husband.  

She should not even help in the smallest way to lead a brother into temptation.

I heavily respect a woman who has the courage to help not make me fall even for the slightest glance.  If women care for the well being of the brothers in their churches, they should be very modest and cover their heads.

Now I'll go a bit more extreme:
1) It's hard to fall into lust when a woman is wearing a head covering.
2) It's hard to fall to lust when a woman's "curves" are not shown through tight clothing.
3) When dressed plainly, sisters of a church will never compete in garments, shoes, etc.
4) When not wearing costly array, the competition ends.

Anyway, I believe that the EO should take examples from their history and their nuns.
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« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2013, 09:56:39 PM »

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.

yeah that deep rooted hair.

brown hair...red hair...curly...mmmhmm bow chika wow wow

I know what you guys are saying is sarcasm.... but let me explain something (hard to explain from a 'worldly' point of view).

My wife, daughter, all of my wifes relatives, people in and near my community all cover and dress modestly & plain (mennonite).   Here is an example:


I did not grow up or live like this forever.  I was in world orthodoxy most of my life.

Let me tell you something brothers.....

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If it was not revealing, consider, why so many women spend $$$$ on hair products, shine, enhancers, coloring, etc etc etc... (and whatever that horrendous smelling stuff they use in salons)

A Christian sister should reserve her GLORY for her husband or future husband.  

She should not even help in the smallest way to lead a brother into temptation.

I heavily respect a woman who has the courage to help not make me fall even for the slightest glance.  If women care for the well being of the brothers in their churches, they should be very modest and cover their heads.

Now I'll go a bit more extreme:
1) It's hard to fall into lust when a woman is wearing a head covering.
2) It's hard to fall to lust when a woman's "curves" are not shown through tight clothing.
3) When dressed plainly, sisters of a church will never compete in garments, shoes, etc.
4) When not wearing costly array, the competition ends.

Anyway, I believe that the EO should take examples from their history and their nuns.


Head coverings are historical all through EO history (except recent).
Head coverings are traditional.
Head coverings are scriptural.
Head coverings are depicted by the Theotokos in icons.
Head coverings are depicted on women in 99.9% of icons (by personal observation).  (I've seen 4 examples (probably schlock) in tens of thousands of icons I've seen where head coverings on women were not used)

The hair of a woman is her glory, and through modesty standards many women feels it reserves it for her husband.  This is another reason many women cover.

Women were commanded in 1 Corinthians 11 to cover their heads while praying (and this was a practice of all the Jews & Christians) and in Thessolonians it was commanded to "pray without ceasing".

In my opinion, to argue these commands, history, traditions (of almost every Christian group that extends 200+ years), and the scriptures - are just people simply not wanting to do what they should.   Responses are often hostile by those who want to distort the scriptures, history, and traditions of Christianity.


Says the guy who jettisons what he doesn't like about a living tradition while he chases the dragon of "authenticity."

Where I'm from, that's called hypocrisy.

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« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2013, 10:54:55 PM »



The blondish one to the far right is very beautiful; think she would be interested in me?  Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2013, 11:04:17 PM »

Hair makes me hot. oh yeeeaaah.

yeah that deep rooted hair.

brown hair...red hair...curly...mmmhmm bow chika wow wow

I know what you guys are saying is sarcasm.... but let me explain something (hard to explain from a 'worldly' point of view).

My wife, daughter, all of my wifes relatives, people in and near my community all cover and dress modestly & plain (mennonite).   Here is an example:


I did not grow up or live like this forever.  I was in world orthodoxy most of my life.

Let me tell you something brothers.....

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If it was not revealing, consider, why so many women spend $$$$ on hair products, shine, enhancers, coloring, etc etc etc... (and whatever that horrendous smelling stuff they use in salons)

A Christian sister should reserve her GLORY for her husband or future husband.  

She should not even help in the smallest way to lead a brother into temptation.

I heavily respect a woman who has the courage to help not make me fall even for the slightest glance.  If women care for the well being of the brothers in their churches, they should be very modest and cover their heads.

Now I'll go a bit more extreme:
1) It's hard to fall into lust when a woman is wearing a head covering.
2) It's hard to fall to lust when a woman's "curves" are not shown through tight clothing.
3) When dressed plainly, sisters of a church will never compete in garments, shoes, etc.
4) When not wearing costly array, the competition ends.

Anyway, I believe that the EO should take examples from their history and their nuns.


Head coverings are historical all through EO history (except recent).
Head coverings are traditional.
Head coverings are scriptural.
Head coverings are depicted by the Theotokos in icons.
Head coverings are depicted on women in 99.9% of icons (by personal observation).  (I've seen 4 examples (probably schlock) in tens of thousands of icons I've seen where head coverings on women were not used)

The hair of a woman is her glory, and through modesty standards many women feels it reserves it for her husband.  This is another reason many women cover.

Women were commanded in 1 Corinthians 11 to cover their heads while praying (and this was a practice of all the Jews & Christians) and in Thessolonians it was commanded to "pray without ceasing".

In my opinion, to argue these commands, history, traditions (of almost every Christian group that extends 200+ years), and the scriptures - are just people simply not wanting to do what they should.   Responses are often hostile by those who want to distort the scriptures, history, and traditions of Christianity.


Says the guy who jettisons what he doesn't like about a living tradition while he chases the dragon of "authenticity."

Where I'm from, that's called hypocrisy.


I don't know why you quoted both segments, but he proved my point.  He attacks me personally with hostility, rather than seeing the the facts.

I just shrug and go on.    Can't even respond to it.


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« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2013, 11:10:20 PM »

He is right...you guys kind of do resort to ad hominems against yeshiasiam whenever he says something against the grain opposed to refuting his arguments, kinda like when older folks won't respond to me logically but just fall back on "I'm older and have more experience."
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« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2013, 11:11:08 PM »

"I'm older and have more experience."

Yeah the age card is a non-starter.
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« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2013, 11:12:46 PM »

He is right...you guys kind of do resort to ad hominems against yeshiasiam whenever he says something against the grain opposed to refuting his arguments, kinda like when older folks won't respond to me logically but just fall back on "I'm older and have more experience."

No, he's not. Read some of his older threads, and the earlier posts in this thread.

By definition, older people do have more experience.

No one made ad hominems. He just can't stand that not everyone agrees with his pet broken-record rant.
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« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2013, 11:13:00 PM »

What if the men were required to wear the type of clothing that men wore in Jesus's time?  After all it can be a real distraction for women to see the outlines of men's legs when they wear pants (we would see so much less if they dressed as men did in NT times).  How many of you men would be willing to do that?  After all, monks don't go to church in pants and a shirt (those might be under their cassock, but their cassock is on top).

I think all of us men on here would really get stimulated at the possibility of wearing special old-world pastimes clothing options at church. I could imagine myself in Holy Russia, the Bible times, etc. What a privilege and an exhilarating experience. I think I would like to go for that Greek look from 200 years ago with the mustache and cylindrical hat, mixed with some kind of velvet tunic and slippers. Remembering life before these dark times.
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« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2013, 11:14:54 PM »



The blondish one to the far right is very beautiful; think she would be interested in me?  Smiley

That was on a missionary/charity trip with a Mennonite congregation to Honduras.  There is an orphanage there for the children.  Adoptions are pretty easy.  The photo was picked up for a few Mennonite stories around the world (not my photo either just used for example).  She is from a sister church and I do know the family.  I think (not positive she's about 17 now).  Heh, it's old school brother James... Probably Courting candles, etc... Probably parental approval needed to court.     But she may, can't speak for her.  (I have the matchmaker song from fiddler on the roof in my head now)    
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« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2013, 11:16:13 PM »

By definition, older people do have more experience.
So what?
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« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2013, 11:17:23 PM »

What if the men were required to wear the type of clothing that men wore in Jesus's time?  After all it can be a real distraction for women to see the outlines of men's legs when they wear pants (we would see so much less if they dressed as men did in NT times).  How many of you men would be willing to do that?  After all, monks don't go to church in pants and a shirt (those might be under their cassock, but their cassock is on top).

I think all of us men on here would really get stimulated at the possibility of wearing special old-world pastimes clothing options at church. I could imagine myself in Holy Russia, the Bible times, etc. What a privilege and an exhilarating experience. I think I would like to go for that Greek look from 200 years ago with the mustache and cylindrical hat, mixed with some kind of velvet tunic and slippers. Remembering life before these dark times.

On the downside though, that would be MUCH more expensive for parishioners than a headcovering. The former would require us to purchase an entire new wardrobe, whereas the latter you only have to purchase one scarf. How would less fortunate parishioners be able to afford the new clothing? I'd love to come dressed like an Aztec or in some ancient Central American apparel, but I doubt I could afford it.
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« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2013, 11:17:50 PM »

What if the men were required to wear the type of clothing that men wore in Jesus's time?  After all it can be a real distraction for women to see the outlines of men's legs when they wear pants (we would see so much less if they dressed as men did in NT times).  How many of you men would be willing to do that?  After all, monks don't go to church in pants and a shirt (those might be under their cassock, but their cassock is on top).

I think all of us men on here would really get stimulated at the possibility of wearing special old-world pastimes clothing options at church. I could imagine myself in Holy Russia, the Bible times, etc. What a privilege and an exhilarating experience. I think I would like to go for that Greek look from 200 years ago with the mustache and cylindrical hat, mixed with some kind of velvet tunic and slippers. Remembering life before these dark times.
LOL!!!!
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« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2013, 11:52:01 PM »

He is right...you guys kind of do resort to ad hominems against yeshiasiam whenever he says something against the grain opposed to refuting his arguments, kinda like when older folks won't respond to me logically but just fall back on "I'm older and have more experience."

No, he's not. Read some of his older threads, and the earlier posts in this thread.

By definition, older people do have more experience.

No one made ad hominems. He just can't stand that not everyone agrees with his pet broken-record rant.

Biro,

Today I mucked out 3 barns, dealt with a split stall water pipe, refilled the near house firewood storage, on top of regular chores.  Then I had to work my normal job today.  Plus I'm raising 5 children with my wife all in the mix.  The fact that everybody does not agree with me on a web forum, does not keep me up for one single minute at night.  "can't stand it" is very - very strong words.   I get time on this forum while compiling custom kernels for servers and performing backups for others online.

I'm sorry if my "rant" is has been accepted as a broken record.  Just understand that I was in the Eastern Orthodox church longer than many on this forum have been alive.   So if you respect experience with years & age...

Know I was immensely hurt by events after all that experience in Orthodoxy on something I for so long thought I knew was correct and rock solid.   I'm not saying that the church is not rock solid or correct, I'm saying that it made me know for a fact there are several craters in that rock, some I believe are deeper than others.  If I point these out, I make what seems to be "enemies" quick.

So back to the point, so after approximately 1960 years of the Eastern Orthodox following the scriptures of women wearing their heads covered, why is it important to argue they should not?  Why is this "rock solid" church allowing women to disobey the scriptures AND tradition of the faith itself?

Don't let it upset you, it's just questions, not blind accusations.  They are DOING IT and many EO are against it.
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« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2013, 02:10:29 AM »

He is right...you guys kind of do resort to ad hominems against yeshiasiam whenever he says something against the grain opposed to refuting his arguments, kinda like when older folks won't respond to me logically but just fall back on "I'm older and have more experience."
Not all ad hominem arguments (according to the definition given them by the rules of formal logic) are logical fallacies. In this case, the fact that yeshuaisiam picks and chooses what elements of the Christian faith he wishes to adopt in his pursuit of "authenticity" has everything to do with the message he has been posting on these head covering threads. His hypocrisy makes his words hollow and devoid of any real authority. (BTW, according to the rules of formal logic, what I just said is NOT an ad hominem, in that I'm saying his words are invalidated by what he does, not by whom he is.)
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« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2013, 02:53:56 AM »

...I'm saying his words are invalidated by what he does, not by whom he is.)

And the pendulum swings the other way.

Who/whom is doomed.
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« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2013, 03:36:53 AM »

Not all ad hominem arguments (according to the definition given them by the rules of formal logic) are logical fallacies.

Yes they are; the validity and logical truth of a statement has nothing to do with how you personally conduct yourself, unless of course the statement is a fact about yourself, in which case, it can be refuted by an ad hominem. But in this case, that is not so. Whether or not yeshuasiam "picks and chooses" has nothing to do with whether or not he is correct or incorrect in this instance on his stance about headcoverings.

Quote
In this case, the fact that yeshuaisiam picks and chooses what elements of the Christian faith he wishes to adopt in his pursuit of "authenticity" has everything to do with the message he has been posting on these head covering threads.

I don't see how

Quote
His hypocrisy makes his words hollow and devoid of any real authority.

No they don't; his words become hollow and devoid of any real authority when they have logically been proven wrong, his "hypocrisy" says nothing about whether or not his words are true.
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« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2013, 04:28:28 AM »

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

The monastery is akin to an intensive care unit while the church is like a general hospital for all sinners.  There are rules for visiting an intensive care unit like wearing a mask and gown.  No dispute there.

When you go to the hospital, you receive the treatment you need.  I can't be refused treatment if I show up wearing a baseball cap.

Except a monastery is not an ICU. It is a monastery.
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« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2013, 04:49:26 AM »

Not all ad hominem arguments (according to the definition given them by the rules of formal logic) are logical fallacies.

Yes they are; the validity and logical truth of a statement has nothing to do with how you personally conduct yourself, unless of course the statement is a fact about yourself, in which case, it can be refuted by an ad hominem.
So you contradict yourself. You can't say that all ad hominem arguments are logical fallacies and then give examples of how some are not. Your inconsistency only shows how you agree with me.

But in this case, that is not so. Whether or not yeshuasiam "picks and chooses" has nothing to do with whether or not he is correct or incorrect in this instance on his stance about headcoverings.
But that's not what I'm saying, James. It isn't about whether what yeshuaisiam says is true or not. It's about his moral authority to say what he does.

Quote
In this case, the fact that yeshuaisiam picks and chooses what elements of the Christian faith he wishes to adopt in his pursuit of "authenticity" has everything to do with the message he has been posting on these head covering threads.

I don't see how
Doesn't matter what you see or don't see, at least not on this matter. yeshuaisiam puts himself forward as an authority on biblical truth, yet what he recognizes and preaches as biblical truth is an amalgamation of his own opinions, drawn from his picking and choosing what he likes from a variety of Orthodox and heterodox Christian traditions, rather than the unadulterated authority of the Orthodox Church. I am therefore not going to grant any credence to what yeshuaisiam has to say about head coverings, since he is not an authority on things Orthodox.

Quote
His hypocrisy makes his words hollow and devoid of any real authority.

No they don't; his words become hollow and devoid of any real authority when they have logically been proven wrong, his "hypocrisy" says nothing about whether or not his words are true.
The authority of his words is not dependent on their truth. There's no logical way to prove or refute his assertion that the wearing of head coverings is part of Holy Tradition, because there's no logical way to prove that Holy Tradition is true. There's no logical way to prove that Holy Tradition is true, because the Lord and Truth of Tradition transcends all logic. All we have, then, is yeshuaisiam's moral authority to preach what he does. Others from within our Orthodox faith may have that authority, but yeshuaisiam has not, because what authority he once had as an Orthodox Christian has been nullified by his fall into heresy and hypocrisy.

You see, James, Christianity is all about appeal to authority. The question is: To which authority are you going to listen?
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« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2013, 04:55:21 AM »

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

The monastery is akin to an intensive care unit while the church is like a general hospital for all sinners.  There are rules for visiting an intensive care unit like wearing a mask and gown.  No dispute there.

When you go to the hospital, you receive the treatment you need.  I can't be refused treatment if I show up wearing a baseball cap.

Except a monastery is not an ICU. It is a monastery.

Why can't it be both?
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« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2013, 04:58:44 AM »

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

The monastery is akin to an intensive care unit while the church is like a general hospital for all sinners.  There are rules for visiting an intensive care unit like wearing a mask and gown.  No dispute there.

When you go to the hospital, you receive the treatment you need.  I can't be refused treatment if I show up wearing a baseball cap.

Except a monastery is not an ICU. It is a monastery.

Why can't it be both?

Better yet, why would it be?
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« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2013, 05:07:34 AM »

The position of our priest is that ideally women would wear headcoverings. But, no one is required/expected to in our parish. In fact; our Khouria does not wear a headcovering (although their eldest daughter that is also a Khouria does whenever she visits) Our Khouria wasn't allowed in a certain parish to venerate a saint's relics unless she wore a borrowed wrap skirt. She didn't get all high and mighty about it. On the other hand it is a simple issue of etiquette to wear a headcovering at a monastery. I don't think asking that a woman wear a long skirt is overly oppressive either. Similarly men are not allowed to wear hats or shorts in the Nave either. It isn't about feminism, and anyone that thinks that putting a scarf on their head when they visit a monastery is overly oppressive has chosen the wrong faith  police Roll Eyes

Now...when it comes to facial piercings I can't say much. I have a 10 gauge septum ring, and no I don't take it out when I go to church, nor have I been asked/required to. I couldn't even if I wanted to since it takes a special tool to remove it that I do not own.

My daughter thinks it is cool enough she tried to pretend she had one too!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 05:11:58 AM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2013, 05:25:09 AM »

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

The monastery is akin to an intensive care unit while the church is like a general hospital for all sinners.  There are rules for visiting an intensive care unit like wearing a mask and gown.  No dispute there.

When you go to the hospital, you receive the treatment you need.  I can't be refused treatment if I show up wearing a baseball cap.

Except a monastery is not an ICU. It is a monastery.

Why can't it be both?

Better yet, why would it be?

Do you understand the purpose of an ICU? Do you understand the purpose of a monastery (for monks or for lay people visiting)? Do you see any similarities?  I think they have a same purpose. And since I don't draw a sharp distinction between physical and spiritual, I can see them as being even closer in purpose. Health, it's all about health.
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« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2013, 05:36:47 AM »

An ICU is a bad analogy. If you go to the ICU they do in fact take away your clothing/possessions and put you in appropriate clothing Wink You get this cool plastic bag to put everything in.
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« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2013, 05:45:42 AM »

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If you spent some time in, say, Iran, would you consider anyone who doesn't wear a burqa immodest?
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« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2013, 07:40:30 AM »

What if the men were required to wear the type of clothing that men wore in Jesus's time?  After all it can be a real distraction for women to see the outlines of men's legs when they wear pants (we would see so much less if they dressed as men did in NT times).  How many of you men would be willing to do that?  After all, monks don't go to church in pants and a shirt (those might be under their cassock, but their cassock is on top).

I think all of us men on here would really get stimulated at the possibility of wearing special old-world pastimes clothing options at church. I could imagine myself in Holy Russia, the Bible times, etc. What a privilege and an exhilarating experience. I think I would like to go for that Greek look from 200 years ago with the mustache and cylindrical hat, mixed with some kind of velvet tunic and slippers. Remembering life before these dark times.
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« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2013, 11:33:52 AM »


Wow.  Really?  We are arguing about head-coverings?  Must be a slow day....

I see it this way....

As Christians we are to be humble and submissive to our "elders"....

So, if I go to a monastery and they "expect" women to cover their heads....then by all means, I will cover my head.   After all, I CHOSE to go there, they didn't kidnap me. 

If my bishop or pastor instructed me to cover my head, or say my prayers a hundred times, or fast for three days, or not do this or that, or do this or that....or whatever it was.....(as long as it met with Church rules)....I would be obligated to do so.

It's not MY choice.  As a Christian, I humbly should do what I am told to do.  Orthodoxy does not support egotism, or my way or the highway thinking.  It's not about "me".  I have to give up my pride, my ego, my thinking that I am always right, that things must be done the way I want them, etc.....or truly, I am a Christian in name only.

If you cannot succumb to Church authority....then it's useless.  It's pride.....and pride even brought down God's most favored angel of light. 

What we are talking about here, is NOT HEADCOVERINGS....but, PRIDE.

It's not "our" will that is important here....we need to realize that.

Covering our heads is not that big a deal.  If I were told to do so, I would.

At my parish, some do, some don't.....the pastor states it's not that important and our salvation doesn't hinge on it....however, if my bishop or pastor stated Sunday morning that we are to cover....fine.  I would cover. 

I don't come to church to express my individuality.

I come to church to worship my Creator, along with my fellow Christians.  It's not about me.

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« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2013, 12:22:34 PM »

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If you spent some time in, say, Iran, would you consider anyone who doesn't wear a burqa immodest?

The burqa (full covering) is not required in most of Iran and its not a requirement by Shari'ah law. In fact, according to the pictures we see from Iran, the women usually wear a very revealing hijab and maintain a very cosmopolitan look. The Christian headcovering is about more than just modesty.
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« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2013, 12:27:11 PM »

The Christian headcovering is about more than just modesty. I've heard from some wearers say that it gives them a feeling of submission to God. It is an ancient practice that the Church has inherited from Ancient Judaism so, in away, not wearing one during prayer would be exhibiting non-Christian behavior. It is commanded in the scriptures. It is a very beautiful practice for those who choose to wear the veil full-time, but for those who dont, it beautifully separates what is holy from what is worldly. Yes modesty is an important part of the headcovering but theres a little more to it than just modesty. 


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« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2013, 12:30:02 PM »

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If you spent some time in, say, Iran, would you consider anyone who doesn't wear a burqa immodest?

The burqa (full covering) is not required in most of Iran and its not a requirement by Shari'ah law. In fact, according to the pictures we see from Iran, the women usually wear a very revealing hijab and maintain a very cosmopolitan look. The Christian headcovering is about more than just modesty.

Nice try derailing the point. Afghanistan, then. Or any area where a niqab (face veil) is customary. Are we to suppose that a man who spends some time among women in full coverage will then be distracted and tempted by the sight of a bit of ankle or forearm?

I honestly believe that any man who answers 'yes' to the above has bigger problems of his own to deal with than the modesty levels of his surrounding womenfolk.
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« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2013, 01:05:29 PM »

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If you spent some time in, say, Iran, would you consider anyone who doesn't wear a burqa immodest?

The burqa (full covering) is not required in most of Iran and its not a requirement by Shari'ah law. In fact, according to the pictures we see from Iran, the women usually wear a very revealing hijab and maintain a very cosmopolitan look. The Christian headcovering is about more than just modesty.

Nice try derailing the point. Afghanistan, then. Or any area where a niqab (face veil) is customary. Are we to suppose that a man who spends some time among women in full coverage will then be distracted and tempted by the sight of a bit of ankle or forearm?

I honestly believe that any man who answers 'yes' to the above has bigger problems of his own to deal with than the modesty levels of his surrounding womenfolk.

I wasn't trying to derail the point. Actually, in a way, I was agreeing with you a little. I think overall, women should dress modestly and a headcovering should at least be worn during prayer or at church. Historically, the long flowing hairs of a woman are viewed as something beautiful and feminine are were/are to be covered as her body should be. In Christian practice, women cover their hair not only for modesty but also because it is sacred tradition and scriptural, I think that many people have forgotten this and that could be a big reason for this argument. Originally, Islam inherited the veil from Christianity for the sake of sacred tradition passed from Christianity and because of the immoral behavior that was going on. As time progressed, some people started demanding that women wear the burqa because of their own inability to control their lust. Ironically, I find the burqa to be mysteriously attractive....I'm sure that I'm not the only one. The headcovering, should be worn by Christian women not only because of modesty but because of its connection to that which is holy.     
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« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2013, 01:37:34 PM »

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If you spent some time in, say, Iran, would you consider anyone who doesn't wear a burqa immodest?

The burqa (full covering) is not required in most of Iran and its not a requirement by Shari'ah law. In fact, according to the pictures we see from Iran, the women usually wear a very revealing hijab and maintain a very cosmopolitan look. The Christian headcovering is about more than just modesty.

Nice try derailing the point. Afghanistan, then. Or any area where a niqab (face veil) is customary. Are we to suppose that a man who spends some time among women in full coverage will then be distracted and tempted by the sight of a bit of ankle or forearm?

I honestly believe that any man who answers 'yes' to the above has bigger problems of his own to deal with than the modesty levels of his surrounding womenfolk.

I wasn't trying to derail the point. Actually, in a way, I was agreeing with you a little. I think overall, women should dress modestly and a headcovering should at least be worn during prayer or at church. Historically, the long flowing hairs of a woman are viewed as something beautiful and feminine are were/are to be covered as her body should be. In Christian practice, women cover their hair not only for modesty but also because it is sacred tradition and scriptural, I think that many people have forgotten this and that could be a big reason for this argument. Originally, Islam inherited the veil from Christianity for the sake of sacred tradition passed from Christianity and because of the immoral behavior that was going on. As time progressed, some people started demanding that women wear the burqa because of their own inability to control their lust. Ironically, I find the burqa to be mysteriously attractive....I'm sure that I'm not the only one. The headcovering, should be worn by Christian women not only because of modesty but because of its connection to that which is holy.

I'm not really arguing with that. If I'm directed to wear a veil, I will. If it's left up to me, I probably won't. All the effort fashionable ladies put into their hairdos has nothing on the effort I'd have to put into confining my hair under a scarf.

From wearers' accounts, a burqa is apparently the single most uncomfortable garment one can wear. A salwar kameez, on the other hand, is another beast entirely. Wink
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« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2013, 02:08:38 PM »

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If you spent some time in, say, Iran, would you consider anyone who doesn't wear a burqa immodest?

The burqa (full covering) is not required in most of Iran and its not a requirement by Shari'ah law. In fact, according to the pictures we see from Iran, the women usually wear a very revealing hijab and maintain a very cosmopolitan look. The Christian headcovering is about more than just modesty.

Nice try derailing the point. Afghanistan, then. Or any area where a niqab (face veil) is customary. Are we to suppose that a man who spends some time among women in full coverage will then be distracted and tempted by the sight of a bit of ankle or forearm?

I honestly believe that any man who answers 'yes' to the above has bigger problems of his own to deal with than the modesty levels of his surrounding womenfolk.

I wasn't trying to derail the point. Actually, in a way, I was agreeing with you a little. I think overall, women should dress modestly and a headcovering should at least be worn during prayer or at church. Historically, the long flowing hairs of a woman are viewed as something beautiful and feminine are were/are to be covered as her body should be. In Christian practice, women cover their hair not only for modesty but also because it is sacred tradition and scriptural, I think that many people have forgotten this and that could be a big reason for this argument. Originally, Islam inherited the veil from Christianity for the sake of sacred tradition passed from Christianity and because of the immoral behavior that was going on. As time progressed, some people started demanding that women wear the burqa because of their own inability to control their lust. Ironically, I find the burqa to be mysteriously attractive....I'm sure that I'm not the only one. The headcovering, should be worn by Christian women not only because of modesty but because of its connection to that which is holy.

I'm not really arguing with that. If I'm directed to wear a veil, I will. If it's left up to me, I probably won't. All the effort fashionable ladies put into their hairdos has nothing on the effort I'd have to put into confining my hair under a scarf.

From wearers' accounts, a burqa is apparently the single most uncomfortable garment one can wear. A salwar kameez, on the other hand, is another beast entirely. Wink

In my culture, both men and women wear salwar kameez. Its comfort ability depends on how ornate it is. From my experience, the salwar (pants) are so comfortable that many people them as pajamas.   
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« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2013, 02:33:13 PM »


Wow.  Really?  We are arguing about head-coverings?  Must be a slow day....

I see it this way....

As Christians we are to be humble and submissive to our "elders"....

So, if I go to a monastery and they "expect" women to cover their heads....then by all means, I will cover my head.   After all, I CHOSE to go there, they didn't kidnap me. 

If my bishop or pastor instructed me to cover my head, or say my prayers a hundred times, or fast for three days, or not do this or that, or do this or that....or whatever it was.....(as long as it met with Church rules)....I would be obligated to do so.

It's not MY choice.  As a Christian, I humbly should do what I am told to do.  Orthodoxy does not support egotism, or my way or the highway thinking.  It's not about "me".  I have to give up my pride, my ego, my thinking that I am always right, that things must be done the way I want them, etc.....or truly, I am a Christian in name only.

If you cannot succumb to Church authority....then it's useless.  It's pride.....and pride even brought down God's most favored angel of light. 

What we are talking about here, is NOT HEADCOVERINGS....but, PRIDE.

It's not "our" will that is important here....we need to realize that.

Covering our heads is not that big a deal.  If I were told to do so, I would.

At my parish, some do, some don't.....the pastor states it's not that important and our salvation doesn't hinge on it....however, if my bishop or pastor stated Sunday morning that we are to cover....fine.  I would cover. 

I don't come to church to express my individuality.

I come to church to worship my Creator, along with my fellow Christians.  It's not about me.



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« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2013, 06:05:14 PM »

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

The monastery is akin to an intensive care unit while the church is like a general hospital for all sinners.  There are rules for visiting an intensive care unit like wearing a mask and gown.  No dispute there.

When you go to the hospital, you receive the treatment you need.  I can't be refused treatment if I show up wearing a baseball cap.

Except a monastery is not an ICU. It is a monastery.

Why can't it be both?

Better yet, why would it be?

Do you understand the purpose of an ICU? Do you understand the purpose of a monastery (for monks or for lay people visiting)? Do you see any similarities?  I think they have a same purpose. And since I don't draw a sharp distinction between physical and spiritual, I can see them as being even closer in purpose. Health, it's all about health.

And analogies have their limits.

I am not required to help produce crafts when staying at an ICU. Why should the monastery require such a thing? Etc.
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« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2013, 06:55:59 PM »

Their monastery, their rules. That's really what it comes down it; if the Abbot requires that female visitors wear headcoverings, then what's the problem? If she doesn't want to wear one then she doesn't have to visit the monastery. That'd be like me visiting your house naked and refusing to put clothing on, even when you've offered me a fine robe.

The monastery is akin to an intensive care unit while the church is like a general hospital for all sinners.  There are rules for visiting an intensive care unit like wearing a mask and gown.  No dispute there.

When you go to the hospital, you receive the treatment you need.  I can't be refused treatment if I show up wearing a baseball cap.

Except a monastery is not an ICU. It is a monastery.

Why can't it be both?

Better yet, why would it be?

Do you understand the purpose of an ICU? Do you understand the purpose of a monastery (for monks or for lay people visiting)? Do you see any similarities?  I think they have a same purpose. And since I don't draw a sharp distinction between physical and spiritual, I can see them as being even closer in purpose. Health, it's all about health.

And analogies have their limits.

Care to clarify?

I am not required to help produce crafts when staying at an ICU. Why should the monastery require such a thing? Etc.

You miss the point.

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« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2013, 10:50:04 PM »

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.

Or a Godless Greek . . .

Serbs, ROCOR and the Old Calendarist groups believe in headcoverings and God and everyone else is Godless?

Sorry if my well known tendency toward satire escaped your limited ability to understand it.  But if you really must know, I do not think very highly of NC innovators.  The NC was only the first push off the slippery slope.  I personally believe that they will not feel their mission is complete until we are all holding hands and singing praises to the Antichrist.  And I am pretty sure the Greeks will be the first to apostatize, although the Antiochians will give them a good run for the money.  But that being said, I really do not believe that they are Godless . . .yet.
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« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2013, 10:53:08 PM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

Because it's asking me to do something, and if I don't think it's justified, who are you to make me?

Just as I thought. "I wanna wear what I wanna wear."

And I'm no one to make you. And I don't make you. But if a parish wants to make you...it can (they usually don't, but they can). And certainly a monastery can. I am not seeing why this is a big deal.

Ye gods, what a first world problem.

What if the men were required to wear the type of clothing that men wore in Jesus's time?  After all it can be a real distraction for women to see the outlines of men's legs when they wear pants (we would see so much less if they dressed as men did in NT times).  How many of you men would be willing to do that?  After all, monks don't go to church in pants and a shirt (those might be under their cassock, but their cassock is on top). 

I would find that to be wonderful.  I often wish that I would not be out of place wearing the clothing of that time.  I actually wear my cassock whenever I can.
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« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2013, 10:57:47 PM »

He is right...you guys kind of do resort to ad hominems against yeshiasiam whenever he says something against the grain opposed to refuting his arguments, kinda like when older folks won't respond to me logically but just fall back on "I'm older and have more experience."

No, he's not. Read some of his older threads, and the earlier posts in this thread.

By definition, older people do have more experience.

No one made ad hominems. He just can't stand that not everyone agrees with his pet broken-record rant.

Yes, but I have found that young idiots tend to grow up to be old idiots, so I do not put too much stock in age. 
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« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2013, 11:09:25 PM »


Wow.  Really?  We are arguing about head-coverings?  Must be a slow day....

I see it this way....

As Christians we are to be humble and submissive to our "elders"....

So, if I go to a monastery and they "expect" women to cover their heads....then by all means, I will cover my head.   After all, I CHOSE to go there, they didn't kidnap me. 

If my bishop or pastor instructed me to cover my head, or say my prayers a hundred times, or fast for three days, or not do this or that, or do this or that....or whatever it was.....(as long as it met with Church rules)....I would be obligated to do so.

It's not MY choice.  As a Christian, I humbly should do what I am told to do.  Orthodoxy does not support egotism, or my way or the highway thinking.  It's not about "me".  I have to give up my pride, my ego, my thinking that I am always right, that things must be done the way I want them, etc.....or truly, I am a Christian in name only.

If you cannot succumb to Church authority....then it's useless.  It's pride.....and pride even brought down God's most favored angel of light. 

What we are talking about here, is NOT HEADCOVERINGS....but, PRIDE.

It's not "our" will that is important here....we need to realize that.

Covering our heads is not that big a deal.  If I were told to do so, I would.

At my parish, some do, some don't.....the pastor states it's not that important and our salvation doesn't hinge on it....however, if my bishop or pastor stated Sunday morning that we are to cover....fine.  I would cover. 

I don't come to church to express my individuality.

I come to church to worship my Creator, along with my fellow Christians.  It's not about me.


Orthodox (right thinking) Post of the Month
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« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2013, 12:14:48 AM »

The Christian headcovering is about more than just modesty. I've heard from some wearers say that it gives them a feeling of submission to God. It is an ancient practice that the Church has inherited from Ancient Judaism so, in away, not wearing one during prayer would be exhibiting non-Christian behavior. It is commanded in the scriptures. It is a very beautiful practice for those who choose to wear the veil full-time, but for those who dont, it beautifully separates what is holy from what is worldly. Yes modesty is an important part of the headcovering but theres a little more to it than just modesty. 


Another beautiful insight. Thanks.
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« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2013, 12:28:05 AM »

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.

Or a Godless Greek . . .

Serbs, ROCOR and the Old Calendarist groups believe in headcoverings and God and everyone else is Godless?

Sorry if my well known tendency toward satire escaped your limited ability to understand it.

What you said wasn't satire.

But if you really must know, I do not think very highly of NC innovators.  The NC was only the first push off the slippery slope.  I personally believe that they will not feel their mission is complete until we are all holding hands and singing praises to the Antichrist.  And I am pretty sure the Greeks will be the first to apostatize, although the Antiochians will give them a good run for the money.  But that being said, I really do not believe that they are Godless . . .yet.

It's been 90 years since the New Calendar was adopted.  It took 1,021 for the Great Schism to take place.   Wink  The Internet has accelerated the spread of information and the massive schism of the Orthodox may occur in this lifetime.
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« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2013, 12:34:19 AM »

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.

Or a Godless Greek . . .

Serbs, ROCOR and the Old Calendarist groups believe in headcoverings and God and everyone else is Godless?

Sorry if my well known tendency toward satire escaped your limited ability to understand it.

What you said wasn't satire.
So you're able to override what Punch said about himself and tell him what he was thinking? Or is your inability to grasp that he was using satire testament to his mastery of the art?
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« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2013, 01:01:14 AM »

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.

Or a Godless Greek . . .

Serbs, ROCOR and the Old Calendarist groups believe in headcoverings and God and everyone else is Godless?

Sorry if my well known tendency toward satire escaped your limited ability to understand it.

What you said wasn't satire.
So you're able to override what Punch said about himself and tell him what he was thinking? Or is your inability to grasp that he was using satire testament to his mastery of the art?

I have a choice?  My opinion is forbidden on this forum.   Wink
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« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2013, 01:08:01 AM »

So, it's all just whining to you.

I take it you're not a fan of that "reading the post thoroughly" business.
Whom are you talking to?

OrthoNoob. He made a reference to 'whining,' and I wanted to say I and some other posters took it more seriously than that.

Examples? Or better yet, just answer my question about what the harm would be if (gasp) you all had to cover your heads?

The opposite rule prevails for men, and I've never heard of any kind of backlash. We're simply not concerned with it. Why are you?

Because it's asking me to do something, and if I don't think it's justified, who are you to make me?

Well, OrthoNoob isn't making you. You don't have to go into the monastery or the church. Access is not guaranteed. In ancient times, entrance into the nave was only for the baptized.

Who is God to have made us? Or the Church to ask us to do anything? Why can't we just do whatever we want?
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« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2013, 01:11:55 AM »

...I'm saying his words are invalidated by what he does, not by whom he is.)

And the pendulum swings the other way.

Who/whom is doomed.

Can you hear the editors screaming? This will give me nightmares tonight.
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« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2013, 01:14:01 AM »

An ICU is a bad analogy. If you go to the ICU they do in fact take away your clothing/possessions and put you in appropriate clothing Wink You get this cool plastic bag to put everything in.

So, monasteries are less picky about things than ICUs. Imagine.
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« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2013, 01:15:16 AM »

I can't even explain it other than saying you have no clue "how pornographic" the "outer world" seems, when you are surrounded by women dressed as this.  I never realized how much I sinned.  Our God was not kidding when he talked the plank (at least in my case).

Yes even when I see hair on females, I have to keep myself in check.  I realized that I had always noticed, but never thought anything of just "hair".  Now that I am aware after being "unplugged" for a while from a lot of the worldly ways, I can totally see how exposed hair can be revealing.

If you spent some time in, say, Iran, would you consider anyone who doesn't wear a burqa immodest?

Well, if you see how they look when not wearing a burqa or chador, you'd see the connection with modesty is rather superficial.
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« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2013, 01:18:58 AM »

An ICU is a bad analogy. If you go to the ICU they do in fact take away your clothing/possessions and put you in appropriate clothing Wink You get this cool plastic bag to put everything in.

So, monasteries are less picky about things than ICUs. Imagine.

Worse, ICUs and hospitals give you that opened-backed hospital gown that only fits half-way around.

Does anyone remember the 1963 song about that hospital gown?

Oh, that open-backed hospital gown.


Not very modest. Plus you only get to wear a headcovering in a hospital if you have a head injury or brain surgery.
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« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2013, 02:23:02 AM »

...I'm saying his words are invalidated by what he does, not by whom he is.)

And the pendulum swings the other way.

Who/whom is doomed.

Can you hear the editors screaming?

That's like asking if I can see these words being typed.

This will give me nightmares tonight.

A kindred spirit.
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« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2013, 02:55:08 AM »


Wow.  Really?  We are arguing about head-coverings?  Must be a slow day....

I see it this way....

As Christians we are to be humble and submissive to our "elders"....

So, if I go to a monastery and they "expect" women to cover their heads....then by all means, I will cover my head.   After all, I CHOSE to go there, they didn't kidnap me. 

If my bishop or pastor instructed me to cover my head, or say my prayers a hundred times, or fast for three days, or not do this or that, or do this or that....or whatever it was.....(as long as it met with Church rules)....I would be obligated to do so.

It's not MY choice.  As a Christian, I humbly should do what I am told to do.  Orthodoxy does not support egotism, or my way or the highway thinking.  It's not about "me".  I have to give up my pride, my ego, my thinking that I am always right, that things must be done the way I want them, etc.....or truly, I am a Christian in name only.

If you cannot succumb to Church authority....then it's useless.  It's pride.....and pride even brought down God's most favored angel of light. 

What we are talking about here, is NOT HEADCOVERINGS....but, PRIDE.

It's not "our" will that is important here....we need to realize that.

Covering our heads is not that big a deal.  If I were told to do so, I would.

At my parish, some do, some don't.....the pastor states it's not that important and our salvation doesn't hinge on it....however, if my bishop or pastor stated Sunday morning that we are to cover....fine.  I would cover. 

I don't come to church to express my individuality.

I come to church to worship my Creator, along with my fellow Christians.  It's not about me.


Orthodox (right thinking) Post of the Month

Maria, please note the bolded sections. I entirely agree with Liza's post, do you?   Wink
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« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2013, 06:21:10 PM »

Really.  So, was your comment on who is or is not a feminist what you actually believe?  Sorry, but I took it as satire and not just the rambling of a moron, so I answered in like manner.  Was I not correct?

What is with this fetishizing over headcoverings.

Sheeeesh

The purple demons came out early for Lent - especially the equating of headcoverings with the Theotokos.  If you don't agree, you're a feminist.

Or a Godless Greek . . .

Serbs, ROCOR and the Old Calendarist groups believe in headcoverings and God and everyone else is Godless?

Sorry if my well known tendency toward satire escaped your limited ability to understand it.

What you said wasn't satire.


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« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2013, 08:02:45 PM »

Really.  So, was your comment on who is or is not a feminist what you actually believe?

I don't understand you.

Sorry, but I took it as satire and not just the rambling of a moron, so I answered in like manner.  Was I not correct?

I didn't use satire.  I'm the master of the non sequitur.   angel
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« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2013, 08:26:07 PM »

In any case, you were not totally serious.  Neither was I.

Really.  So, was your comment on who is or is not a feminist what you actually believe?

I don't understand you.

Sorry, but I took it as satire and not just the rambling of a moron, so I answered in like manner.  Was I not correct?

I didn't use satire.  I'm the master of the non sequitur.   angel
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« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2013, 08:33:46 PM »

In any case, you were not totally serious.  Neither was I.

Fair enough.   Smiley
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« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2013, 11:09:54 PM »


I'm curious. Do the women who protest against covering their hair at monasteries also refuse to wear a skirt? 

Many monasteries prohibit women from entering if they are wearing pants.



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« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2013, 11:44:12 PM »


I'm curious. Do the women who protest against covering their hair at monasteries also refuse to wear a skirt? 

Many monasteries prohibit women from entering if they are wearing pants.





I doubt that very many women would go to a monastery and refuse to meet the clothing requirements of a monastery.  If I really had a problem with covering my head or wearing a long skirt or dress, I wouldn't go to a monastery.  I don't wear a headcovering, but as you said, I would do it if my priest wanted me (and the other women) to.  When I visit another parish, when I email the priest to let him know that I am coming, I ask about headcoverings.  If it was the policy to wear a headcovering, I would bring one and wear it. 
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