Author Topic: Nine apostles as judges  (Read 653 times)

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Offline Larissa

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Nine apostles as judges
« on: February 12, 2013, 09:22:39 AM »
Why are there only nine apostles as judges in this Last Judgment icon and not twelve?

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ukrainian-Orthodox-Icon-Last-Judgment-The-Day-of-the-Lord-Jesus-Chris-4-x5-/290795976697?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D290800831075%26ps%3D54&nma=true&si=i2ZDKyMeN5ER97Aesdt4SGew37c%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 09:42:24 AM »
Bizarre iconographic whim? Unexplained iconographic convention? No meaning at all--like why half the saints in some Resurrection icons have halos and half do not?
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Offline mike

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 09:45:52 AM »
Oh my...

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 10:46:15 AM »
Oh my, is right...

Where to begin?

LBK....where are you?

I would say there are a number of things that are "amiss" with this icon.

God the Father, portrayed as an Old Man.....the "eye".....
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 10:46:45 AM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 11:21:34 AM »
My favorite part is the skeleton with the scythe!

Offline LBK

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 06:15:43 PM »
Bizarre iconographic whim? Unexplained iconographic convention? No meaning at all--like why half the saints in some Resurrection icons have halos and half do not?

There is, indeed, a meaning to the two groups in icons of the Resurrection.  :)

The half (usually to the left of Christ) who bear haloes in icons of the Resurrection are those holy ones who preceded Christ, including the prophets David and Solomon, and, of course, St John the Baptist, the last of the prophets and the bridge between the OT and NT; those to the right represent the Christian faithful who are in the post-Resurrectional era.
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 06:19:15 PM »
How many US Supreme Court Justices are there?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 06:32:58 PM »
Oh my, is right...

Where to begin?

LBK....where are you?

I would say there are a number of things that are "amiss" with this icon.

God the Father, portrayed as an Old Man.....the "eye".....

Oh, I quite agree. Some seriously weird "theology" goin' down there.  ;)

Showing only nine apostles in judgement is definitely wrong. While coming across a Last Judgement without a God the Father or a white dove is extremely difficult, because of the era when most of these were painted was a time where God the Father imagery was unfortunately profuse, all examples I have seen correctly show twelve apostles.

In place of God the Father, it is Christ who should be shown. The theme of the icon and of its feast in the lead-up to Great Lent, is the Second Coming. It was Christ, not the Father, who came, and it will be Christ, not the Father, who will come again.

Here is an example of a "correct" icon:

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Offline choy

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2013, 06:46:21 PM »
Is the Holy Eucharist Icon based on the Last Supper?  Or has Judas already been replaced by someone else (is it St. Paul?  And why not St. Matthias if that is the case?)  Because the Holy Eucharist Icon has 12 Apostles all with Halos, although in the Last Supper icon there is one without a halo (Judas of course).

Offline LBK

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 07:04:13 PM »
Is the Holy Eucharist Icon based on the Last Supper?  Or has Judas already been replaced by someone else (is it St. Paul?  And why not St. Matthias if that is the case?)  Because the Holy Eucharist Icon has 12 Apostles all with Halos, although in the Last Supper icon there is one without a halo (Judas of course).

The iconographic convention in many types of compositions is to show St Paul as one of the Twelve. This includes icons of the Dormition, the Communion of the Apostles, the Last Judgement, Pentecost, a great many Apostles' Tiers of iconostases, and, of course, the Assembly of the Twelve. St Paul shares pre-eminence in honor with St Peter, and therefore these two are always shown in prominence in such icons.

Mystical Supper icons carry a different meaning to the others I have mentioned, and so do not feature St Paul.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 08:02:12 PM »
Oh my, is right...

Where to begin?

LBK....where are you?

I would say there are a number of things that are "amiss" with this icon.

God the Father, portrayed as an Old Man.....the "eye".....

Oh, I quite agree. Some seriously weird "theology" goin' down there.  ;)

Showing only nine apostles in judgement is definitely wrong. While coming across a Last Judgement without a God the Father or a white dove is extremely difficult, because of the era when most of these were painted was a time where God the Father imagery was unfortunately profuse, all examples I have seen correctly show twelve apostles.

In place of God the Father, it is Christ who should be shown. The theme of the icon and of its feast in the lead-up to Great Lent, is the Second Coming. It was Christ, not the Father, who came, and it will be Christ, not the Father, who will come again.

Here is an example of a "correct" icon:



LBK....can you explain exactly what is depicted in the various "levels"? 

I'm assuming below the Apostles are Adam and Eve???

What's going on in the bottom most level?

Thanks!!

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Offline Melodist

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 08:23:41 PM »
Why are there only nine apostles as judges in this Last Judgment icon and not twelve?

Could it be that John and Matthew are depicted among the four evangelists at the feet of Mary and possibly Peter(?) being depicted elsewhere above the nine judges?

Just a thought. I agree it does look strange.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline choy

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 08:24:34 PM »
and possibly Peter(?) being depicted elsewhere above the nine judges?

Only if this is a Roman Catholic icon.

Offline choy

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 08:25:59 PM »
Aren't the Apostles the one on the upper part with 6 men to each side?  Just slightly below where the Theotokos is?

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 08:27:18 PM »
My favorite part is the skeleton with the scythe!

Skeleton? Pssh, you mean the Grim Reaper, dude. Haven't you read the Journey?

"When death came, it was roaring like a lion and was very frightening in appearance. It looked like a human being but had no body; instead it consisted of human bones. Death brought various instruments of torture, such as swords, arrows, javelins, sickles, saws, and others unknown to me. When I saw these, my humble soul trembled with fear. The holy angels said to death: 'Do not tarry, free this soul from its bodily ties, and do it fast and quietly, for she has but a small burden of sins.' Death stepped up to me, took a small axe and separated my legs, then my arms; then with its other instruments it weakened all the rest of my limbs, separating them joint by joint. I lost the use of my arms and legs, my whole body grew numb, and I no longer was able to move. Finally death cut off my head, and I no longer could move it, for it felt as if it belonged to someone else. Lastly, death dissolved in a cup some kind of mixture, and putting the cup to my lips, made me drink. The potion was so bitter that my soul was unable to endure it. It shuddered and went out of my body."


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Offline mike

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 05:26:09 AM »
My favorite part is the skeleton with the scythe!

Skeleton? Pssh, you mean the Grim Reaper, dude. Haven't you read the Journey?

"When death came, it was roaring like a lion and was very frightening in appearance. It looked like a human being but had no body; instead it consisted of human bones. Death brought various instruments of torture, such as swords, arrows, javelins, sickles, saws, and others unknown to me. When I saw these, my humble soul trembled with fear. The holy angels said to death: 'Do not tarry, free this soul from its bodily ties, and do it fast and quietly, for she has but a small burden of sins.' Death stepped up to me, took a small axe and separated my legs, then my arms; then with its other instruments it weakened all the rest of my limbs, separating them joint by joint. I lost the use of my arms and legs, my whole body grew numb, and I no longer was able to move. Finally death cut off my head, and I no longer could move it, for it felt as if it belonged to someone else. Lastly, death dissolved in a cup some kind of mixture, and putting the cup to my lips, made me drink. The potion was so bitter that my soul was unable to endure it. It shuddered and went out of my body."



Source, please...

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2013, 05:28:46 AM »
I assume that eventually the link will no longer work and the image will be lost, so here is a shot of the picture/image/whatever in question...

« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 05:29:05 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline WeldeMikael

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 05:40:20 AM »
My favorite part is the skeleton with the scythe!

Skeleton? Pssh, you mean the Grim Reaper, dude. Haven't you read the Journey?

"When death came, it was roaring like a lion and was very frightening in appearance. It looked like a human being but had no body; instead it consisted of human bones. Death brought various instruments of torture, such as swords, arrows, javelins, sickles, saws, and others unknown to me. When I saw these, my humble soul trembled with fear. The holy angels said to death: 'Do not tarry, free this soul from its bodily ties, and do it fast and quietly, for she has but a small burden of sins.' Death stepped up to me, took a small axe and separated my legs, then my arms; then with its other instruments it weakened all the rest of my limbs, separating them joint by joint. I lost the use of my arms and legs, my whole body grew numb, and I no longer was able to move. Finally death cut off my head, and I no longer could move it, for it felt as if it belonged to someone else. Lastly, death dissolved in a cup some kind of mixture, and putting the cup to my lips, made me drink. The potion was so bitter that my soul was unable to endure it. It shuddered and went out of my body."



Source, please...


Saint Theodora's Journey.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/theodora.aspx
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 05:41:10 AM by WeldeMikael »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2013, 07:30:49 AM »
An icon of Last Judgement without St. Patrick? Is outrage!

Offline LBK

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 07:52:16 AM »
An icon of Last Judgement without St. Patrick? Is outrage!

Well, we can't fit everybody in.  ;) :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 08:04:34 AM »
An icon of Last Judgement without St. Patrick? Is outrage!

Well, we can't fit everybody in.  ;) :laugh: :laugh:

Is that a challenge?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2013, 08:22:38 AM »
An icon of Last Judgement without St. Patrick? Is outrage!

Well, we can't fit everybody in.  ;) :laugh: :laugh:

Well, we sort of already did exactly that. ;)


Offline Larissa

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2013, 12:22:54 PM »
So it remains a mystery why there are only nine apostles as judges and not twelve.

I think I have identified most of the saints - Theotokos, 4 Evangelists, King David, Prophet Moses, Protomartyr Stephen, John the Forerunner, 6 + 6 apostles - but who are the first two saints in the upper left hand corner (above king David)?

Offline mike

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2013, 12:25:34 PM »
My favorite part is the skeleton with the scythe!

+1

So it remains a mystery why there are only nine apostles as judges and not twelve.

It remains a mystery why my graphic processor does not crash while processing it.

Offline Larissa

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2013, 12:56:15 PM »

So it remains a mystery why there are only nine apostles as judges and not twelve.

It remains a mystery why my graphic processor does not crash while processing it.
A very similar icon - the same composition but different colours - used to be in the cell of a Russian elder (staretz) and was given to my priest after the elder died. The priest put it on the wall of his church (Patriarchate of Moscow).
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 12:57:32 PM by Larissa »

Offline mike

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2013, 01:27:04 PM »
I'm talking about rendition. It looks like 90' cartoon show. Something like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAkL2-vh2Sk

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2013, 02:13:10 PM »
I'm talking about rendition. It looks like 90' cartoon show. Something like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAkL2-vh2Sk

Blast from the past!

Offline choy

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Re: Nine apostles as judges
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2013, 03:30:56 PM »
So it remains a mystery why there are only nine apostles as judges and not twelve.

Maybe the Final Judgement does not require an en banc.